Forum Replies Created
Before you lot start disseminating your da’as hedyot (no offense), let’s get clear the da’as Torah.
For more info as well as a beautiful explanation and appreciation of the value and importance of tzenius, see sefer Oz V’hadar Levushah, in English, by HRH”G Rav Falk SHLIT”A from Gateshead, England, with whom I am zoche to have a strong kesher.
There are two ‘dinim’ here, the first of which I hope is irrelevant to all of us; to protect ourselves from being influenced by the conduct of parutzim/os who are beyond the point of no return. In the times of the Sanhedrin, someone who did a serious aveirah in this field was thrown off a building / cliff, or had molten lead poured down their throats, etc. – uvi’arta hara mikirbecha. Now, of course, this mode of enforcement of that which is correct, is wrong, as is any other violent punishment, as we don’t unfortunately have a sanhedrin of mumchin. But the concept of taking extreme measures under the guidance of da’as Torah to ensure no breach of tzenius standards is certainly there.
To take any steps in this direction, however, without the clear directives of da’as Torah is, as the outbursts in Beit Shemesh about a year ago showed, destructive at best and suicidal both physically and spiritually at worst, as the non-conformists will davka be more peritzosdik just to get back.
The second din is to try to be mekarev those members of Klal Yisrael who have unfortunately fallen through, and try to bring them back through education and love and genuine appreciation of who they are and their status as children of HKB”H. Great care must be taken by those who embark on this route so as to not expose themselves to more than is justifiable, and da’as Torah, as ever, must be sought in each individual case, as each case must be judged on its own merits.
The bottom line is, the current situation is far from ideal, and da’as Torah must be sought to find out which practical steps, if any, should be taken, and which form those steps should take.March 29, 2013 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm in reply to: Separate Times For Bochurim & Sem Girls In Gateshead #1029726
Veltz meshugener: I’m not quite sure what you mean by “Gateshead being Gateshead” – it’s written quite clearly that ‘tefach be’isha ervah’, so any girl revealing a part of her body that should be covered is being oiver the same issur as she would be if going with trousers, or a sleeveless top etc.
And if you think that’s just for the ‘frummers in Gateshead’, those ‘radical, oppressive extremist freaks’, and that ‘times have changed’, then that’s well on the path to Reform, R”L.
The Halachah is unequivocal on this point – any girl immodestly dressed ie. not dressed in accordance with the strict halachah, is being oiver on an infringement into gilui ervah, literally.March 20, 2013 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm in reply to: Separate Times For Bochurim & Sem Girls In Gateshead #1029719
yekke2 – all unmarried high-school and sem girls, and all bochurim and I think also high-school boys, whether local or foreign, are bound by this takanah.
And never mind the story you heard firsthand – no offense intended – but I myself went into Stenhouse about five weeks ago, towards the end of winter zman, and there were around ten girls – yes, all American – in there, chatting and giggling noisily, and only after complaining to the woman at the desk did she feebly request that they vacate the premises at the earliest opportunity. Ten minutes later, they were all still in the shop, and at least three others had entered during this time.(!)
There is, of course, as well as simply trangressing the Rov’s takanah, the immense problem of causing bochurim to have improper hirhurim, which is the intended purpose of most of the latest gentile-designed fashion outfits that many American girls wear. The native Gateshead girls and those of the wider English community are generally more tzenius in their mode of dress. Of course these are generalisations and will not necessarily apply to all girls in any specific category, but they are the general trends that I have noticed of late.March 18, 2013 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm in reply to: Separate Times For Bochurim & Sem Girls In Gateshead #1029716
Practically speaking, this takanah isn’t kept as much as it should be – I have many times gone in to Stenhouse/Dansky’s during the Yeshiva’s bein hasedorim (boys’ times) and found the place teeming with American girls, perfume and all. And yes, most of these girls are American (they chatter so loudly it’s impossible to not overhear their accents).
And when the Mashgiach of Gateshead Yeshivah, HRH”G Rav Mordechai Yosef Karnowsky SHLIT”A walks in when there are girls there in boys’ time, he ensures that they leave promptly. This is quite a clear demonstration that Da’as Torah is that this takanah is ongoing and anyone daring to breach it is being poretz geder.
For further reference, see Michtav Me’eliyohu (Rav Dessler ZT”L) vol. 1 page 75 where he quite clearly says that a peson who goes contrary to Da’as Torah is essentially eating away at the foundations upon which Yiddishkeit is built – however blindingly obviously wrong, senseless and counterproductive the opinion of Da’as Torah seems to him.
Pikudei Hashem yesharim – MESAMCHEI lev.
See also the Mesilas Yesharim who warns a lot about people getting confused between pleasure and happiness – and ice cream gives pleasure, limmud haTorah gives happiness. It’s getting these two confused that leads a person to depression, which in turn leads to greater pursuit of Olam Hazeh, which leads to depression….
And a private jet or $5000 camera is a large ice cream. Don’t get confused.
And finally, ALWAYS consult Da’as Torah with such critical, delicate matters, where the smallest confusion over a seemingly minor subtlety can wreck a life, R”L.
Limmud HaTorah Lishma – read Nefesh Hachaim Sha’ar Daled to find out how, and discuss with a Mashgiach.
Guys, get real – all of you.
WHO CARES what is happening, may happen etc. – Hashem is running the show, and all we can and must do is follow da’as Torah i.e. strengthen our Torah and mitzvos etc. and daven. Everything else – the politics; what’s happening; what could happen; what we’d do if it would happen, etc. is all thoroughly irrelevant, and is pure Bittul Torah for which we will accomplish one thing and one thing only – giving power to the Satan.
Our ko’ach is the Torah, so let’s not squander it, and waste time on petty, irrelevant subtleties that don’t help us in any way, and aderabba, can adversly affect us in the worst possible way, R”L.
The whole danger of drafting Bochurim is Bittul Torah and inability to do Mitzvos, so anyone wasting time discussing this is being phenomenally hypocritical and turning the spiritual gun on themselves and the rest of Klal Yisroel. This is a responsibility that I trust few Yidden would want attributed to them.
Anything that could possibly make any man have any illegitimate thoughts about a woman should be outlawed.
In Gateshead, they would be rightly appalled at the suggestion of mixed seating, and not only that, but they take the further precaution that the Chassan and Kallah aren’t even allowed to hold hands as they step off the chupah, for that very purpose of avoiding hirhurei aveirah.
Any inconvenience this may cause to the ba’alei simchah pales into insignificance when compared with the ‘kateigor’ of having caused someone to have improper thoughts at your simchah.
Seeing as though the old Gateshead Rov Ztvk”l saw the necessity to institute separate times for boys and girls in the public Jewish shops there (see thread: ”Separate times for bochurim and sem girls in Gateshead”), at least they shouldn’t be sitting together.
They certainly shouldn’t be seated in such a way as to have unrelated members of different genders sitting next to each other.
I have heard too, although I am not sure what the source is, that if there is no separate seating at a chassuna, then according to halacha one is not allowed to say “shehasimcha bim’ono” in the zimun because there is not a proper hashra’as hashechinah such gatherings. 147, maybe this is the answer to your question – you don’t need such a hashra’as hashechinah in an aeroplane!
such questions should be directed to a competent, Rav who has semicha in the area of shulchan aruch that your sha’ala is in. Do not ask halachic questions on a forum where anybody who thinks they know what they’re talking about can offer their opinions, eg probably…; I think… etc.
Not to say that the answers here are wrong, but asking sha’alos in such a manner can prove seriously damaging to your spiritual health.
don’t worry, it’ll be fine unless you use something that’ll go off, so stick to water (pun intended)April 1, 2012 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm in reply to: Separate Times For Bochurim & Sem Girls In Gateshead #1029690
100% – it’s funny how all those who disagree with the takanah are external spectators, and all those who were or are Gatesheaders fully understand and appreciate the need for it – just my musings, you probably agree, no?April 1, 2012 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm in reply to: Separate Times For Bochurim & Sem Girls In Gateshead #1029689
Doped up –
dressing provocatively, quote on quote, is one of the worst possible things for a bas yisrael to do – something that causes others do fall into aveiros of the worst order cannot be justified under any circumstances. I would go so far as to say yehareig ve’al ya’avor – get killed rather than follow your misguided advice.
I sing with gusto every Friday night, “sheker hachein v’hevel hayofie”, so if what’s attracting you to your wife is her physical rather than spiritual form, then your chances of success in this world and the next are worryingly slim – probably as slim as that girl you’ve got your eyes on.
someone who comes up with such dei’os has lost the mandate to offer opinions. I can only try and be dan lechaf zechus (which is quite hard) and say that you were exaggerating your opinions to ridiculous levels.
Best of luck.
coffee: the person onto whom one coughs
giraffiti: vandalism spray-painted very very high
congress:opposite of progress (for Americans only)
politics: lots of blood-sucking insectsMarch 31, 2012 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm in reply to: Separate Times For Bochurim & Sem Girls In Gateshead #1029677
one who understands the workings of normal human social interaction fully, (who I cannot claim to be), will appreciate that when boys and girls who are below the age of intellectual maturity mix, disastrous results can follow. It is for this reason, among many others for which we don’t have time, that the Torah and Chazal made so many stringent safeguards to restrict mixing of the genders until they come of age – indeed, the Mishnah in Pirkei Avos says quite clearly that 18 is the age to get married.
as I am not a rav or mashgiach etc, I do not have a mandate to proffer my own opinions as to how far we must go to avoid unsolicited interactions, but it is absolutely imperative that we have full trust in our rabbanim (who, whether we like it or not, have a far greater understanding of what is necessary than ourselves) when they make takanos to ensure a continuity of proper kedushas Yisroel, which is the basis for the continuation of Yiddishkeit.
despite all this, the Torah gives us the mitzvah of getting married, and if someone withholds themselves from this, then they have been Mevatel a mitzvah. The mishnah says that the turning point here is 18 years old, and we must accept that as Daas Torah.
As for the problem of how are they going to suddenly be able to get on with and love each other – well, it’s worked for thousands of years so there’s no reason to presume it’ll stop working now.
IY”H you should be zoche, if you haven’t already, to find your bashert and live a productive life together.March 29, 2012 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm in reply to: Separate Times For Bochurim & Sem Girls In Gateshead #1029669
As a current talmid of one of the yeshivos in Gateshead, I can state that there are between 700-800 bachurim in town, as well as around 500 sem girls, and I’m not sure how many families.
First of all, this takanah has been around for longer than I have been in Gateshead, and I think it was initiated by the old Rav, Rav Rakow ztz”l. Therefore, we must bear in mind that he probably had a much greater understanding of both straightforward daas Torah and also a thorough understanding of the workings of the community.