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@yankel berel
Where did I say they can’t run a medina? But with running a medina comes responsibilities as well. Jobs which charedim typically do not take will need to be filled, be it in STEM fields or infrastructure and engineering. These are challenges Charedim are going to have to meet and I am interested how that will look given the current community aversion to these fields. I’m not being antagonistic but wondering how this will happen.
@YYA
You correctly point out the Charedim by demographics alone will at some point become a majority. Being a part of the state requires those within it to take part in the essential functions of it in order for it to maintain itself. This includes maintaining the infrastructure (eg, electricity, waste disposal etc) as well as having functioning healthcare and other professional services, and security. When the charedim do become the majority, how do you see the charedi establishment adapting to these needs given education in many of these fields are shunned entirely? This is not an attack or criticism but if you are asking the question about demographics then surely this must be asked as well. To be clear, I am not attacking charedi society but genuinely interested in how this will work.@YYA
You correctly point out the Charedim by demographics alone will at some point become a majority. Being a part of the state requires those within it to take part in the essential functions of it in order for it to maintain itself. This includes maintaining the infrastructure (eg, electricity, waste disposal etc) as well as having functioning healthcare and other professional services, and security. When the charedim do become the majority, how do you see the charedi establishment adapting to these needs given education in many of these fields are shunned entirely? This is not an attack or criticism but if you are asking the question about demographics then surely this must be asked as well. To be clear, I am not attacking charedi society but genuinely interested in how this will wrk.The source is shaar hakdamos:
עוד במ’ הנ”ל ובג”ד השבעתי אתכם בנות ירושל’ וכו’ פירוש הדברים כי הנה היתה השבועה הגדולה לאלהי”ם שלא יעוררו את הגאולה עד שאותה האהבה תהיה בחפץ ורצון טוב כמ”ש עד שתחפץ כבן העובד את אביו ועייל בכל פלטרין דיליה ובכל גניזין דיליה ולא כעבד העובד במשנה ולוקח השפחה ע”מ לקבל פרס וכבר אמרו רז”ל כי זמן השבועה היא עד אלף שנים
This was the subject of the discussion above.
I have to disagree with your reading of these words. Its clearly states השבעתי אתכם בנות ירושל’ וכו the posuk referred to in kesubos with regards to the 3 shavuos and continue
פירוש הדברים כי הנה היתה השבועה הגדולה לאלהי”ם שלא יעוררו את הגאולה
Note its a shavua to Elokim and not by Elokim. The rest continues in the same vein.
You will disagree because you cannot accept there may be a different opinion to yours however for those who hold that the 3 oaths have expired, this quote from Rav Chaim Vital ztl is a clear proof and they have on whom to rely. To claim otherwise is simply disingenuous.
@somejewiknow my quote is set out in full above.It seems that square_root was quoting R Chaim Vital ztl as brought in my quote. Not a false source.
עוד במ’ הנ”ל ובג”ד השבעתי אתכם בנות ירושל’ וכו’ פירוש הדברים כי הנה היתה השבועה הגדולה לאלהי”ם שלא יעוררו את הגאולה עד שאותה האהבה תהיה בחפץ ורצון טוב כמ”ש עד שתחפץ כבן העובד את אביו ועייל בכל פלטרין דיליה ובכל גניזין דיליה ולא כעבד העובד במשנה ולוקח השפחה ע”מ לקבל פרס וכבר אמרו רז”ל כי זמן השבועה היא עד אלף שנים
He was of course referring to these shavuos.
If you don’t agree, please explain what he was referring to?
Nobody of note? Rabbi Chaim Vital says explicitly in shaar hakdamos that the oaths only applied for 1,000 years. He is of note I would think?
@AAQ
To be clear, I’m not saying after an event like the holocaust there isn’t a need for introspection, however, given we do not have neviim we cannot say definitively why a tzara like the holocaust occurs. Again absolutely a time for teshuva and tefilla.
Rav Teichtal הי”ד in Eim Habanim Semeicha clearly disagrees with Reb Elchonon on the possible reasons for the shoa. I’m not saying who is right (and I’m pretty certain you won’t hold of Rav Teichtal) but you cannot simply dismiss the fact that there are other views because they are precisely that, the views of the Rabanim expressing them, ve’al mi yesh lismoch. You have your shita based on your rabanim and others have theirs. However, as I said we are not neviim and cannot say definitively.
“zionist caused holocaust” that is a disturbing statement which I shudder to see written by a fellow jew. Apart from the fact we are not neviim and do not know why the holocaust happened, the blame for the holocaust lies with the nazis. End of. Hitler was very specific when he blamed all the worlds ills on the jews. He and the nazis did not differentiate between any of us, religious or otherwise. No one type of jew was spared and to blame an event of that magnitude on one type of jew simply displays your own prejudices and means what you say cannot be taken seriously.
I’m not going to get into a yes no debate because that is pointless. I never said there weren’t peaceful periods but there were also peaceful periods in europe. I wouldn’t call that though a happy coexistence. Jews under arab rule have suffered immensely over the centuries and to claim otherwise is burying your head in the sand. @UJM i cited 2 examples of pogroms but there are many many such examples both in Israel and generally across the arab countries (see the Rambams statements on Yishmoel). I agree however that this is a function of galus, hence my point, not everything can be blamed on the zionists and to claim otherwise is simply historically inaccurate. Calls therefore to revert to arab rule are highly misguided.
You are ignoring the point. The point I was making was that jews did not leave peacefully with arabs prior to the state/zionism. I was simply pointing to several examples prior to the state which cannot be possiblt blamed on zionists and there are many many more such examples and you cannot simply dismiss the point because it is inconvenient for you. Again the point is that Jews arrange living together has not been a peaceful coexistence so it cannot just be blamed on zionists.
I rarely ever post on here but when you keep repeating the claim that riots in israel eg the tzfat riot of 1929 is beacuse of the zionists and that before the zionists the jews lived safely in Israel is factually incorrect. How do you explain the riots in tzfat in the 19th century eg tzfat 1834 or 1838? Not everything can be blamed on the zionists.