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CTRebbe wrote: “If the chareidim will eventually become the majority in Israel they can’t realistically expect a minority of secular to be the only ones serving.”
So a minority of people who actually want to serve in the army can’t make up the army?
How about in the US: 0.4 percent of the American population is active military personnel.
Why aren’t you serving in the US Army? Do you expect to laze around while just 0.4 percent of the American people are bearing YOUR burden?
Seriously, the Israeli army needs to get with the times and become a volunteer army that enlists only people who want to enlist, instead of a bunch of mostly unmotivated recruits who bloat the army with unneeded jobnik positions. And by the way, I say this as someone whose son served in the army.CTReebbe wrote: “If the chareidim will eventually become the majority in Israel they can’t realistically expect a minority of secular to be the only ones serving.”
So a minority of people who actually want to serve in the army can’t make up the army?
How about in the US: 0.4 percent of the American population is active military personnel.
Why aren’t you serving in the US Army? Do you expect to laze around while just 0.4 percent of the American people are bearing YOUR burden?
Seriously, the Israeli army needs to get with the times and become a volunteer army that enlists only people who want to enlist, instead of a bunch of mostly unmotivated recruits who bloat the army with unneeded jobnik positions. And by the way, I say this as someone whose son served in the army.karlbenmarx: I am precisely advocating killing the terrorists and I can’t believe anyone on the planet has the gall to call this soldier a murderer. Just be aware that serving in the army is not a personal choice here. Many are forced into it. To call it an aveirah d’oraisah is plain ignorant.
Gavra: “How do you know that anyone doesn’t have such a device? How do I know that you do not intend to kill me?”
Don’t be ridiculous. This was a terrorist who had JUST stabbed a soldier. He is not some neutral person strolling down the street whose motivations we can’t fathom. He has just actively demonstrated himself to be a terrorist! And he is wearing a thick leather coat on a warm day. If those two things together do not add up to a reasonable halachic suspicion of someone being dangerous, then I give up.
And Karlbenmarx, don’t sit in your comfy house in America and pass judgment on people who are in the IDF whose situations you don’t understand. Go troll somewhere else. This is not a game. People’s lives are at stake.
If you see the video (with sound, not the falsified edited B’Tselem version), you will know it is NOT reasonable to assume the soldier knew the terrorist did not pose an immediate danger. (As DaasYochid points out, if he had lived, chances are extremely high that the terrorist would eventually have become a danger once again sooner rather than later.) I don’t really understand commenting on this whole issue without having seen the full video.
Thank you, Syag. My own son is out there serving in a combat unit right now. I hope he will never have to encounter a terrorist, but our boys in uniform are automatically targets, and if G-d forbid he is ever in such a situation, I am sickened to think the army would prefer he risk his own life and those of his fellow soldiers to protect a known terrorist just in case the terrorist turns out after the fact not to have been an immediate danger. I hope this soldier will be fully cleared and that our combat soldiers will not be given the message that engaging in combat might get them charged with murder. In my eyes this is not only despicable treatment of our soldiers (they work SO hard!!!), but endangers ALL of us because it empowers terrorists.
Let me repeat, the soundless video you saw was filmed and publicized by B’Tselem, a left-wing organization that supports terrorists. I don’t think I can post a link here but google “Watch: Video backs claims by soldier who killed terrorist” and check it out on Arutz Sheva (Israel National News). When you hear the voices of the paramedics you get a completely different picture of what happened. And that is specifically WHY B’Tselem removed the sound, as a propaganda tool!
Simcha613, apparently you saw the B’Tselem video that had the sound removed. When you see the video with the sound (it has been on Arutz Sheva and other places), you hear the paramedic’s alarmed yelling and the call not to touch the terrorist because he is suspected of having a bomb on him. MDA’s internal investigation also confirmed this. Why are Jews buying into the Arab propaganda narrative? And by the way, why is no one looking into how the B’Tselem camerawoman just happened to be on scene?
Hello, the paramedics were yelling, “Look out! He may have a bomb belt! Someone do something!” The terrorist (who had just moments earlier stabbed a soldier and thereby proven himself to be an armed and dangerous terrorist who had come with intent to kill and maim) was wearing a thick leather jacket on a warm day. It was EMINENTLY reasonable to assume he might pose a lethal threat to all present. No, it was not confirmed that he had a suicide belt on him, but it was also not confirmed that he didn’t. The idea that anyone can even begin to think of calling this soldier a murderer makes me sick.
BarryLS1: Don’t judge people about whom you know nothing. You want to talk frugal? When my husband was unemployed, for two years “meatloaf” in our home was made out of bread crusts. We eat meat twice a year, on Pesach and on Sukkos. I did not buy a new garment for myself for the first eight years we lived here. No car, no frills of any kind, and the two of us work like dogs just trying to keep food on the table for the kids. (By the way, my husband now works in a completely different field than he originally trained for–he did adapt, but the salary is less than he would make working in a fast food restaurant in the US.) You came here later in life and are presumably not employed here, not supporting children nor trying to navigate them through school; you probably own a home, too. Just because your first few years have been charmed does not mean you have made better choices. Your circumstances are different. You cannot generalize from your own (so far rather brief) experience to assume that anyone else who may be having difficulty is making bad choices. Gmar tov.
Joseph: He’s OTD. He does not want to be in yeshiva. Yes, the army would draft 18-year-olds soon after emigration.
Todros gimpel makes a very good point about the “wearing down” effect. In the early years of our aliyah we made many glowing statements about how wonderful it is and how everyone should come. After you have been here for some time, fatigue can set in. Also, when you start to get into shidduchim for the kids, you discover you are seen as an outsider no matter how hard you have worked to integrate. We have had recent bitter experiences that made it clear to us how the community views us, and frankly the more we have tried to get “in,” the more we feel we really are strangers who will never truly belong here. Even extreme poverty we were willing to endure, but with our oldest OTD and some others looking like they are heading that way also, we wonder what was the payoff for all this misery. It just plain doesn’t seem to have worked. Yet it is no longer simple to leave either.
Joseph: I do not wish to be very specific about our hashkafic affiliation because I have already given a lot of personal details, but in a nutshell, charedi in US and charedi here.
i said so: We were very motivated. It wasn’t enough. To be very honest, the only thing keeping us here anymore is that one of our sons is in the army (and not happy about it but he had no choice) and we are not going to abandon him. Not sure what the future holds but after 12 years I’d say making aliyah thoroughly ruined our life.
Joseph: I refer to being arrested for being unable to pay your debts. This happened to a friend of ours: yes, there is debtor’s prison here. If you have debts you can also have a hold placed on your passport so that you cannot leave the country. We have personally never been arrested, baruch Hashem, but we have received notices from various places that we were on the verge of having a hotzaat hapoal action taken against us, which means in addition to having a freeze placed on your bank account the city sends licensed thugs to come into your home and steal anything you may own of value (including the means by which you earn your parnassah). I have seen this happen to several people as well. In our case we borrowed and went without food in order to pay the debts (some of which were extortion but that’s another story). We have also had a ridiculous falsified claim made against one of our kids for which he was indicted and we had to yet again borrow money to pay for a lawyer and go to court repeatedly. *Eretz* Yisroel is beautiful. *Medinat* Yisroel is not the government Americans are used to. You can get into all sorts of trouble here that you never imagined in the old country.
i said so: We never received free tutoring. It’s a different world in chinuch atzmai. In chinuch atzmai the boys do not do bagruyot, or any secular education past 7th grade. If you are looking at dati mamlachti schools, it would be a very different situation–you do need to speak to people in similar situations to what you anticipate for your family.
Our expenses are less than they were in the States–approximately 75%of what they were there. (Chinuch atzmai schools are not free, by the way–tuition eats up 1/3rd of our income.) But my husband’s income is 25% what it was in the States. I didn’t work there; with my work and his, together we earn about 50% what he did in the States. So our economic load is significantly higher, despite not having a home or vehicle. (During the lengthy time my husband was unemployed, our income was 25% what it had been in the States while our expenses were 75%–we may never pay off the debt we racked up in those years just to keep a little food on the table. Know what it feels like to have to walk across town because you literally do not have 6 shekels for bus fare? I do.)
My point is, NbN and others may give a very rosy picture (they told us my husband would have no trouble getting work here in his field–what a joke), but the reality is that poverty is seriously not fun, and I have seen about half of all my friends who made aliyah go back to the States for economic reasons.
It’s a great irony of our life that we made aliyah for the ruchnius, but all we have is the constant preoccupation with gashmius. Not shopping, folks, but just trying to ensure our kids are eating (not to mention trying to stay out of jail, which is a challenge when you are poor in Israel). That two people with master’s degrees working multiple jobs are under the poverty line is pretty pathetic.
The question wasn’t addressed to me, but I’ll throw in my two agurot on what a “good job” is: it’s one that you can live on. This has proved elusive for us: my husband and I both work multiple jobs and our health is suffering from lack of sleep because we often work 12-hour days until the wee hours. In the States only my husband worked, and earned more than we both do together now, and then I was able to be home with the kids and keep a decent home. (We both have master’s degrees, by the way.)
takahmamash: problem with going outside Yerushalayim is jobs and schools. If you have to send everyone on a bus to somewhere else for job/yeshiva, the extra transportation costs nullify the real estate savings…
YWN reader brings up a very good point about the segregation: you definitely have to choose your “party affiliation” and there are not gray lines. But do be aware that no matter how “black” you go, you may still never be accepted. (Especially if you work, and especially if you are baalei teshuva: an American baal teshuva who works is just an am ha’aretz here, plain and simple, no matter how much you “shtell zu.”)
It depends on a lot of factors. People considering aliyah need to do two things: (1) make sure you speak passable Hebrew BEFORE coming so that ulpan has a chance of lifting you into at least basic fluency (if you come without significant Hebrew skills, you will be placed in ulpan aleph and you will come out not much more illiterate than you were to begin with), and (2) make sure you secure an American source of parnassah for at least the first years (whether commuting or preferably something you can do online).
Aside from high tech or physicians salaries, which may have potential as much as a third to half what they would be in the U.S., most jobs will be more like 1/4 the earning potential. With the cost of real estate (which is in many cases comparable to what you would pay in the tristate area–in Jerusalem for sure, you cannot purchase a three-bedroom apartment for less than half a million dollars for the smallest, simplest place), if you are not able to purchase an apartment upon arriving, you will probably never own one (we are here 12 years and have no hope of ever getting out of the unpleasant and expensive world of renting).
Keep in mind that the economic and communication challenges will be a shock and can put significant stress on your shalom bayis (if you cannot afford shoes or food for your kids, you can’t imagine what that does to you). It is true that in some ways a Jew feels “at home” here more than anywhere else, but there are other ways in which you will never ever feel at home here–there are significant cultural differences.
Note that most charedi schools will see your family as a liability. Unless you have serious yichus or serious money, chinuch atzmai schools may hesitate to bring in Americans who might taint their institution. In shidduchim as well, especially if you are baalei teshuvah, be aware an American family will likely be seen as damaged goods.
There are definitely amazing things about being here, and perhaps you will be lucky and your children will thrive (our oldest went off the derech and some of the younger ones are showing signs of following suit). One can never know how things would have turned out had one stayed in the “old country.” I will say my kids are not mired in pop culture like Americans are, they are not materialistic at all, and they have in many ways grown up in a very wholesome environment. They are also fully trilingual (Hebrew and Yiddish in addition to English), which is amazing.
Be aware however that while going through challenges such as being taken advantage of in financial transactions, falling afoul of the legal system in one way or another, and other things that are liable to happen to olim who do not have good Hebrew nor protektzia, it can be difficult to feel the full benefit of what is in many (but not necessarily all) ways a more wholesome spiritual environment.
Think long and hard. Seek daas Torah. It is not pashut.
Hatzlacha rabba.
Sam2: JR: “The issue now is that the state has determined that the status quo is untenable. There are too many people choosing to learn and the state can’t afford it as much anymore.”
You make this sound like an economic problem. It is not. Bringing charedim into the army would cost the state much more than letting them learn, because charedim marry and have children younger and therefore get higher salaries. Masses of charedim is the last thing the army wants or needs, in a time of budget cuts and staff surpluses. They are davka trying to eliminate “jobnik” positions in the army. This is a spiritual war, plain and simple. Lapid and his ilk simply want to pull people out of the beis medrash, to “empty the pool.”
“And just a technicality, but I thought a married person can work at 24?”
That’s what the new law seeks to change it to. Now it is 28.
“The reason many in EY don’t is because they need the p’tur from the army.”
This was not said clearly. What it means is that the Israeli government has made it ILLEGAL for charedim to work. You cannot work in this country, up to age 28, unless you have served in the army. The p’tur (exemption) from the army is given on condition that the person who receives it is not ALLOWED to work. Charedim need the p’tur because the army is not run by G-d-fearing Jews and is no place for a charedi yeshiva bochur. The reason Jews in Kiryas Yoel and Williamsburg and Boro Park etc. go out to work is because it is fully LEGAL to do so in the United States.
I love how the Israeli government forbids young charedim from working — by law — and then accuses them of being parasitical spongers for not working.
mdd-where are you getting that I want government handouts? This is what I wrote:
“I am fine with canceling the child allowances altogether–if they can make it possible to earn a decent living wage in this country and stop taxing us to death on our income/living space/food/all basic services/etc.”
I would prefer a straight capitalist economy. Since that is NOT what we have now (and NOT what Lapid is trying to create), these cuts are just more salt in the wounds of the working poor.
Here is the link for the article in which the chiloni man complains that the cut in child benefits is hurting his family. There are comments here from other chilonim as well agreeing on the impossibility of making it financially and on how much Lapid’s terrible policies are hurting the working people of Israel.
no links
It’s in Hebrew–run it through Google translate for an approximate idea.
gavra_at_work: both my husband and I have master’s degrees from Ivy League US universities, and many years of work experience from the States. We work in professional environments, albeit not high tech. No, we did not serve in the army, as we made aliyah later in life. We are, however, both highly valued by our employers, however they cannot afford to pay us decent wages because that’s the nature of business in Israel. You imply that this is a problem particular to us (i.e., that we are “damaged goods” in some way) and that this is not a societal problem faced by the MAJORITY of Israelis who struggle to earn a living wage. In particular, the idea that the answer is for us to make yeridah rather than that something in the Israeli socialist economy needs to change is offensive. Should that chiloni man who wrote to Lapid also make yeridah?
For all those who think chareidim in Eretz Yisroel have made themselves “deliberately poor,” have you ever set foot in Israel? My husband and I both work multiple jobs and cannot make ends meet. We do not have a car or own an apartment or overspend on luxuries of any sort. (Unless you are calling an internet connection which we need for some of our jobs a luxury?) Do you have any idea what average salaries are here or how much we pay in taxes? Lapid/Lipman’s gezeiros include a huge cut in the child allowance, increased income taxes, extra taxes on food, including produce, and huge cuts in support for all the charedi schools and yeshivos. The government here is enacting gezeira after gezeira against the charedi community and against all lower income Israelis (which is most Israelis). I recently saw a letter a chiloni man wrote to Lapid saying how much the cut in child allowances would hurt his family. I am fine with canceling the child allowances altogether–if they can make it possible to earn a decent living wage in this country and stop taxing us to death on our income/living space/food/all basic services/etc. As it is, this is one of multiple blows raining down on us from all sides and there is nothing deserved or productive about the whole miserable package. It was also emblematic that the cuts took effect right before the chagim. Some yom tov present.