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Poppa,
I read the letter and disagree. I think it’s clear that is reffering to the thugs at the wedding.
Hakatan,
The point is thatthat it is not our place to stick our personal opinions or comments in on fights that go on between Talmidie Chachomim and Gedolim.
Most people understand this when it comes to fights between earlier Gedolim Like Yaavetz and RY”E (where as I said earlier the things Yaavetz were saying was a whole lot worse then anything being said in these modern fights…)I don’t understand why people who claim to respect Talmidei Chachomim think they can stick their heads into modern fights between towering Talmidie Chachomim when it is about Zionisim…..
As an aside the Oi Limie Shlamdo Torah part of the letter is clearly going on the Bochrim who attacked Rav Stav at Rabbi Rabbinowitz’s Daughter’s wedding.
Poppa,
It was a private letter between big Talmidei Chachomim. It should never have been made public and it isn’t our place to comment on it.
Why can’t we as people who respect Talmidei Chachomim accept that it isn’t our place to stick our heads into a fight between people who clearly outrank any of us in terms of Torah Learning and helping the Klal.
I don’t think the majority of people here would dare say their own opinion on the fight between Yaavetz and Rav Yonantan Eybshutz (and yaavetz said things WAY worse about RY”E then Rav Ovadia did about Rav Stav)
Why do you think it is Ok to insert personal opinions on private letters between Rabbonim? If you are Israeli just quietly vote for who you want and if you aren’t try not sticking your head were it doesn’t belong in any way…
Apologizing and being humble enough to admit when you are wrong is seen as an act of greatness.
How someone who considers themselves a Talmid Chachom can insult and hurl unsubstantiated accusations at someone and not apologize even when it is proven that he made a mistake is beyond me.
It’s even more amazing to see the same person/people demand respect and seem to have a hard time grasping why people have a hard time respecting them personally and taking anything they say seriously.
Saying they were “not aware” or were “followers” doesn’t make them any easier to respect, it also isn’t excuse we would allow for the lowest of non Jews in any sort of leadership position. I would love to respect some of the people and would person in particular (who is particularly well known and fashions himself a major Posek) who signed one of the recent letters about the case in Lakewood… It’s really impossible to though.
“Despite decades of trying, with species of fly that’s life cycle is a week where mutation was induced by radiation and other means, and enhanced by artificial selection, true speciation has not been observed.”
Genetic changes induced by radiation etc. are the only ones that “heal” themselves over generations, the natural genetic differences don’t stop. As an aside speciation has been observed with E Coli.
“But they aren’t so vast. The vastness is only from beginning to end but when different organism are viewed in isolation it’s not that vast. There is only about 2 million years to get from what we would today consider an ape to humans. That is about 100,000 generations”
First of all we consider 3000 years ago a long time ago. 1 million years is kind of incomprehensible. Second of all 2 million years ago according to evolutionists would not be were the common ancestor of humans and modern great apes would be. That would be more like 7 million years ago. 2 million years ago would be basically human just more similar to the common ancestor then we are.
Gamanit
The animals don’t “choose” anything, different pressures make those with certain characteristic’s offspring and descendants become dominant over time. It would actually make sense that genetically similar animals (Like horses and donkeys) would evolve the same sort of responses to similar pressures.
benigmum,
I agree with and appreciate your distinction between common descent and the discussions as to what mechanisms led to that descent came about. Allot of people lump it all together.
As far as the Shi Tzu thing: the point is that the reason for the difference in appearance between Shi Tzus and wolves is because Shi Tzus are GENETICALLY different then wolves, just not enough to theoretically prevent a hybrid from being fertile. There is really no reason to assume that genetic changes would stop at the point that it would affect the fertility of the offspring of a hybrid between a shi tzu and the original wolf population.
The amounts of time talked about when discussing these things are so vast that it is very very hard to even begin to imagine them and the amount of time things could have had to change….
Gamanit,
You asked “Lakewood Fellow- I’d like to hear an explanation from you about convergent evolution. Why are there both donkey zebras and horse zebras? According to standard evolution lines that should be impossible.”
Why would it be impossible? It would be quite likely if two animals are exposed to similar variables in their respective environments that they should evolve similar mechanisms for dealing with those variables.
As an aside it makes sense to cancel the Biology regent if you have a problem teaching students that the world is older then 6000 years old and if you have a problem with common descent…
HaLeiVi,
The point is that all the changes are “in the System”.
If you make enough small changes to a population of animals (what you call “micro changes”) it will change the animals to a point were that population of animals is so different that we would call them a “new species”. There is no real difference between “Micro” and “Macro” evolution, it is a difference in quantity of the changes; that’s all.
I want to stress again that if you believe that the world is 6000 years old obviously evolution could never have happened..
The point is also that there are never large scale changes and it is pretty accepted that the evolution of species happens when a population of animals is isolated from its original population…. As far as dogs the argument is that given enough time they would change to another species. It is an accepted fact that the Shi Tzu’s ancestors were wolves as recently as a couple thousand years ago, what a 100 million years (or more) of changes could do is unfathomable, you don’t see Shi Tzus reverting back to wolves either so i’m not sure were you’r going with your “reverting back to the mean” statement either.
HaLeiVi,
The point is that all the changes are “in the System”.
If you make enough small changes to a population of animals (what you call “micro changes”) it will change the animals to a point were that population of animals is so different that we would call them a “new species”. There is no real difference between “Micro” and “Macro” evolution, it is a difference in quantity of the changes; that’s all.
benignuman,
I’m not going to get into an Evolution debate here because I don’t believe this is the correct place for it, however the differentiation you make between “Micro” and “Macro” evolution is kind of silly. Why would a billion little Micro genetic changes to the body of an animal stop at the arbitrary point where we human beings would start calling it a new “specie”? “Macro” evolution would just be the result of billions of Micro changes to a population of animals….
Of course if you believe the world is only 6000 years old you cannot believe that Evolution happened because there wouldn’t be enough time….. But there are plenty of other questions from Modern Science that you run into if you believe that anyway.
Actually one did. The other didnt. Mods. Why didn’t you post it?
For some reason my responses didn’t get posted. Don’t know why…..
Health,
You said,
“but that doesn’t take these Early Zionists out of the category of Terrorists. They fall into that category acc. to, not My definition, but the World’s definition of Terrorism!”
So if an early Zionist killed a civilian by accident when defending himself against a murderous enemy committed to his destruction and that hides behind civilians, he is a “Terrorist”
but when America drops a 3 ton cluster bomb on downtown Baghdad trying to get Saddam it’s just a sad part of a necessary war…..
Ahh the “world’s” definition!
BTW What does that even mean? Something you saw in some wiki article??
You said,
“If you have any proof that the British at that time were Antisemitic, besides what it says in your Zionist Doctrine, feel free to post it.”
The fact they were busy limiting everything the Jews could do, from immigration, to defending themselves against the Arabs, to Davening out loud by the Kosel, tells it to me.
Of course you believe the British and Arabs LOVED Jews if only the Jews weren’t such Zionists then everything would be GREAT!
Kind of like the maskilim said if only the Jews wouldn’t look so different then things would be great…
With all do respect you seriously should learn a bit of history before you reach such strong feelings about historical events. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about here.
Health,
You said,
“The reasonable Historians have called these Zionist groups – Terrorists. I know – it must be because they hate Jews.”
Yeah the media isn’t biased against Jews, i’m just paranoid.
You said,
“How about Not bombing marketplaces where innocent people will get killed or hurt and figure out another way to get rid of your enemies?”
Do you have any other ideas on how to destroy an enemy that plans and puts together attacks in bases located in civilian areas in order to make them harder to get to? America to this day in Iraq and afganistan has a hard time with it…and that’s with modern technology
You said
“This wasn’t a war with a legitimate country defending themselves. This was a band of terrorists, who had no legitimacy, fighting those who opposed them politically with no regard for human life esp. that of innocent civilains.”
No it was a bunch of Jews who had decided to settle peacefully in E”Y defending themselves while trying to avoid civilian casualties whenever possible.(They warned the civilians in Deir Yassin!) against Arabs who were trying to drive them out by killing them, men woman and children,
How you can equate this with a Muslim saying he is going to kill a bus or plane load etc. of innocent civilians if he doesn’t get his way is beyond me!
The Arabs weren’t people who disagreed politically with the Jews, they were telling them to either move or die, and actively started killing innocent Jewish settlers.
You said,
“Yes, if you have no choice and you are able to flee -then you must. This wasn’t Germany were they couldn’t leave.”
Even according to you the Jews had at least the same rights to live peacefully in Israel as the Arabs did.
Why should Jews be forced to flee their villages (actually using that policy all Jews should have just left E”Y)because the Arabs decide to shoot at them?
Would you apply this if someone was shooting at your house and their were no police around?
You said,
“I don’t know that the British turned a blind eye to arab attacks -Do you have any proof to that or should I (LOL) take your word for it?”
Read a history book. Even the British do not deny this.
Health,
” It’s funny how you justify any evil things anybody has ever done, as long as it is in the name of Zionism. Wake up, if you condone terrorism, even if it’s collateral damage terrorism, you are no better than the terrorists!”
If by terrorism you mean “Defending yourself against violent enemies using violence that sometimes causes civilian deaths” then yeah I believe that is sometimes necessary. According to your definition of Terrorism just about anyone who has fought in any war is a Terrorist then though.
The fact is the early Zionists made reasonable efforts to avoid civilian casualties (which is hard when you are fighting an enemy-like the Arabs that hides behind them) while the Muslim terrorists make civilian casualties their express goal. That is the difference and most reasonable people see it that way.
You said,
“the arabs started their riots and the killing of Jews after the League of Nations together with England, decided that Palestine is going to be a homeland for Jews. “
So what? And the Germans only starting killing Jews after the Jewish led Bolshevick revolution took over Russia and its influence started being felt all over Europe.
You said,
” My post was even if these arabs were terrorists, unless they are shooting directly at you at that second, it’s morally wrong to play policeman. This is called vigilantism.”
Again, Your complete lack of knowledge of the historical realities in E”Y of that time become apparent. The British REFUSED to assist the Jews, There was NO ONE to call. That left the Jews with three choices
1.Die
2. Flee
3.Warn civilians to leave because they need to clear the village of those shooting and killing the Jews below and then fighting back. They chose 3.
You said,
“That now the Zionists in Israel are just like their counterparts in the Arab world, namely the PLO, Hamas, Hizbullah, etc.”
Again you are ignoring the fact that the Arab groups make killing civilians an express goal while the Israeli’s make every reasonable effort possible not too harm civilians.
Do you really not see a distinction??
And again you bring up Samuel. Again he tried to be reasonable with the Arabs and figured that in the worst case scenario if the Arabs refused to be reasonable then the British would see that the Jews were reasonable and have the Jew’s back.
Of course he was wrong. Goyim don’t need Jews to be unreasonable in order to turn against them. T
he British didn’t stop being worried about the “Poor Arabs” and kept restricting Jewish immigration, and turning a blind eye to the constant attacks by Arabs on innocent Jews and kept refusing to assist the Jews in any way whatsoever.
Health,
You said,
“Funny they say the same thing (at least they used to) we were trying to kill military objects -it’s not our fault the civilians got in the way.”
What Muslim Terrorist groups say or said that?!
They specifically tell governments that they will kill civilian men, woman and children if the governments do not capitulate to their demands!
They SAY that is their goal and then they do it if they are not listened too!!! THAT is terrorism.
Blowing up military targets that are intentionally placed in civilian settings to make them impossible too get too is not, in order to disrupt the plans of a deadly enemy is not.
Its not that hard to understand
Seriously man. (Shaking head)
Health
You said,
“he Arabs weren’t Antisemitic at that time, only AntiZionism.”
Again,
You seem intent on taking Anti Semites at their words that the reason they hate Jews is really because of the pretext they give:
Do you beleive Chymlinczki that the reason he killed Jews was because they oppressed the masses?
How about Hitler who used the pretext that the Jews were communist Bolsheviks who caused Germany’s downfall in WW1 and were trying to take over Europe like they did in Russia?
Or do you only believe the Arabs who used the pretext that they hate Jews because of Zionism?
Health,
As far as the Terrorism thing,
Terror is killing civilians specifically; in order to get their governments to do something for you. For example blowing up an Israeli Shopping mall on a Sunday afternoon is a terrorist attack. Blowing up an Airliner full of civilians is a Terrorist attack.
Blowing up a known military planning base is not. Whether or not the base is called a “market” by those who use it.
The Arabs in Deir Yassin were constantly shooting at the Jewish settlements below them and at the Jews traveling the roads nearby. The British wouldn’t stop the Arabs and Jews were being attacked and killed. Thats when what happened in Deir Yassin happened. The Jew’s choice was either flee, die, or stick up for themselves. The Jews chose to stick up for themselves and warned the Arabs before they cleared the village to avoid harming civilians like I pointed out above.
I know Samuel was before Churchill. That was’t my point. Read my post again.
You said,
“But the Zionists were -we won’t compromise with anyone -it’s either all or nothing!”
Even you say that this is not true! You’r the one who keeps going on about how terrible it was that the Zionists in the British government made any compromises on immigration!
“The English wanted Palestine to be a Jewish homeland -that means taking in Jews. How much would be the end result -who knows except for you because you have Nevuah and know they really didn’t mean it. And the fact that they limited Jewish immigration was because of arab opposition, which this limiting was started by a Zionist Jew named Samuel.”
Again, They said “Homeland” to exclude any kind of Jewish state or Jewish control, and they made this clear as well.
The Churchill white paper was clear that there was no intention to “Make Palestine Jewish like England is English”
They were also clear that they wouldn’t stand for anything that the Arabs wouldn’t want and would take the Arab’s side against the Jews in terms of immigration and that in fact is what they did.
High Commissioner Samuel was working with what he had:
A reluctant Britain who grudgingly recognizing that Jews had some sort of right to Israel while basically saying to the Arabs that they had the Arabs backs if they complained about it, and the Hostile Arabs. He tried to negotiate an agreement on immigration that would make the British and Arabs happy.
Of course Jews giving in to Anti Semites and assuming that if they would just be reasonable the Anti Semites would love the Jews didn’t work and the British responded by issuing whitepaper after whitepaper against the Jews, and the Arabs rioted and Killed Jews; while the British looked the other way and arrested and killed any Jews caught fighting the Arabs.
Health,
You said,
[29] for his anti-Zionist political activities and contacts with Arab leaders.”
He was working with the enemies of the movement to bring it down he wasn’t innocent or a civilian.
You said,
“July 15, 1938*, a bomb left in the vegetable market in Jerusalem by the Irgun injured 28[31]
July 25, 1938* the Irgun threw a bomb into the melon market in Haifa resulting in 49 deaths”
Those “markets” were well known places were Arab gangs met to plan attacks against the Jews. But you wouldn’t know that if your entire knowledge of history comes from googling select Wikipedia articles.
you said
“The killings of several suspected collaborators with the Haganah and the British mandate government during the Hunting Season.”
Those collaborators were handing over Irgun members to the British who hung them. They were Rodofim of the highest order.
You said,
“The Semiramis Hotel bombing, carried out by the Haganah (or, according to some sources, Irgun) resulted in the deaths of 24 to 26 people”
The hotel was a known place were Arabs cordinated attacks. Even a simple google search of the Hotels name would tell you that, so even you should know it.
You said,
“April 1948 the Deir Yassin massacre carried out by the Irgun and Lehi, killed between 107 and 120 Palestinian villagers,[36] the estimate generally accepted by scholars.”
Deir Yassin (now Har Nof), was a village situated on a strategic mountain top and was used by the Arabs to launch attacks on the Jews below. Due to the non stop attacks coming from the village the Irgun issued warnings to the civilians in the village to evacuate because they were going to take over the town. Some Arabs did evacuate. Others chose to stay. When the Jews came the Arab fighters hid and fought in the houses of the village. Door to door fighting ensued and there were casualties. There was no “massacre”.
You said,
“The Irgun conducted a campaign of violence against Palestinian Arab civilians resulting in the deaths of at least 250”
Never happened. even Wikipedia can’t find a source for that one
the rest of the attacks you mentioned are clearly on military targets and therefore are not “Terrorism”.
You really should learn about subjects before you form such strong opinions on them….
Health,
As far as your copy and paste from wiki post about terrorist acts I can go through each of them, but then again you really should learn some history before having such strong opinions. The vast majority of the attacks listed there are military in nature… I will post more later when I have time
Health,
You said,
“You are chasing your tail. I never was arguing on this fact, even if I used the word “State”. My argument with you was about Jewish immigration to Palestine. You probably have even forgotten this because you have confused yourself with your many, many lies.”
No, you were, and you called me a liar for disagreeing with you remember? Anyway the British never had in mind to let as many Jews wanted to emigrate to Palestine and proved it by their actions and words: They enacted white paper after white paper and were very clear that they wouldn’t allow the character of Palestine to change to where it would be dominated by a large immigrant Jewish Population
Health,
You said
“I have no idea why Germans hated Jews the way they did, but the arabs, in the early part of this century, hated Jews due to Zionism.”
The Jews must have brought it on themselves in both cases though huh…
I can’t believe I am seeing Jews post such drivel on Jewish sites
Health,
You said,
“I compared you to the arab world. They are indifferent to terrorism and so are you! Terrorism is subhuman whether the terrorist is a Muslim or a Jew!”
I guess you don’t know the meaning of the word “Terrorism”.
Allow me to explain:
Muslim terrorists kill civilians in order to terrorize them into getting their governments to do what they want.
For example they will blow up an Airliner filled with innocent American families.
Or blow up Towers full of thousands of innocent people going to work.
Or throw old helpless innocent men in wheelchairs off of cruise-liners.
That is NOT ok in any circumstances and no one says it is.
Now Blowing up supply trains providing an enemy with supplies or blowing up military bases etc. of people who oppress you is totally different and isn’t Terrorism.
This is the type of activity some early Zionists were involved in.
Comparing it to Muslim Terrorism is ridiculous.
Health you said,
“Just FYI, Irgun was one of a few Jewish terrorist groups. The Jewish terrorists attacked civilains along with military targets -this is why they are terrorists. And you believe it’s ok to be a terrorist as long as they are fighting for what you believe in. You are no different than most of the arab world. Terrorism perpertrated by anyone, Jew or Not, is more than just Not Okay!”
OK do you mind naming ONE Jewish Zionist group that officially conducted operations blowing up anything but military targets?
Can you name one that praised or committed any attack that clearly targeted civilians (like blowing up civilian airliners or buses etc.)
Go ahead Name one
Health,
First of all you ignored most of the points I brought up in my last posts
Second of all it is apparent that you don’t really know anything about the History of Israel, Zionism or the middle east but if you would even just read the Wikipedia article on the Balfour declaration you would see that you are wrong. There is a big difference between a “national homeland” and an independent Jewish state, complete with an Army.
This is besides the point that the majority of the British cabinet opposed even making the small gesture that this declaration was.
And now in order to speak to you on your level here is a quote from the wiki article
“The records of discussions that led up to the final text of the Balfour Declaration clarifies some details of its wording. The phrase “national home” was intentionally used instead of “state” because of opposition to the Zionist program within the British Cabinet. Following discussion of the initial draft the Cabinet Secretary, Mark Sykes, met with the Zionist negotiators to clarify their aims. His official report back to the Cabinet categorically stated that the Zionists did not want “to set up a Jewish Republic or any other form of state in Palestine or in any part of Palestine”.[18] Both the Zionist Organization and the British government devoted efforts over the following decades, including Winston Churchill’s 1922 White Paper, to denying that a state was the intention.[19]”
Mdd,
I am not saying that everything would have been great, but I do think that many European Jews would have had a better chance of survival if they had a place in E”Y they could flee too. You believe Hitler would and could have diverted more units to fight for E”Y had there been more Jews there. I don’t think so.
I also think having an Israeli Army allied with Germany’s enemies like the USA and/Britain would have fought just as good as the British did alone, and that there is no reason to assume that an Israeli Army would not have been assisted by Allied armys who shared a common enemy with them, and made things more difficult for the Germans.
I think we are both arguing something neither of us can PROVE and we are going in circles here….
TKND,
I think they had used all of their resources and Rommel couldn’t get the necessary resources to fight in E”Y. I don’t see why more Jews being there would have changed this situation, the Germans were pretty maxed out. You believe they could have pulled more resources from somewhere I disagree, we are going in circles here
Health,
You said
“Why are you any different than any arab/muslim terrorist like Al Quaida?”
Again the fact that you can compare the Irgun’s activities against Military targets of people who were actively siding with the Arabs against the Jews and making it impossible for the Jews to defend themselves with Muslims blowing up buses, planes and buildings with the express goal of killing as many innocent woman and children as possible shows an astounding lack of knowledge in the history of what actually happened.
(yes I know about the King David hotel so don’t start… The British were warned to evacuate the Hotel hours before the attack but they refused because “They didn’t take orders from Jews” and the Hotel was being used by the British for military purposes)
With all due respect, You really should learn some more history…
Health,
You said
“Did you also praise the guy who killed Rabin? After all he was only a terrorist.”
The fact that you could compare Yigal Amir to someone like Menachem Begin who refused to fire back at Jews even when he was being fired upon by them because “Jews don’t kill other Jews” shows such a lack of knowledge in the history of Zionism and history of Israel that I am not even sure how to respond to it.
Besides the whole premise you are using to argue that Zionism is bad is a flawed one as I pointed out in an earlier comment:
Finding something wrong that a Zionist leader did or a bad judgement call that one made and pointing to that as if it proves that the idea of making a Jewish state is a bad one, Zionism is bad, or that the Jewish state does not benefit Jewry; has the same amount of validity as pointing to a Frum Rov who did a bad thing or made a bad judgement call and saying that the fact that a Rov made a bad decision proves that Frum Jewry is bad….
Which is to say that it has no validity and is not an argument.
Health,
You said,
“The Balfour declaration was exactly that a plan to give Jews a country.”
No, it wasn’t at all. Read about it a little more. The British were clear that there was no intention “to set up a Jewish Republic or any other form of state in Palestine or in any part of Palestine”. Churchill was clear on this as well. They had no interest in there being a Jewish Government or all, let alone a Jewish defense force or Jews having a right to settle in Palestine.
You said,
“Let’s get it straight -the British never hated the Jews. After the Jews started with terrorism – I’m sure this didn’t increase their love towards Jews. The arabs only started hating Jews vehemently because they were against Zionism.”
Riggghhht… and the Germans treated Jews great before the Germans were defeated in WW1 and the Jewish led Bolshevik communist revolution happened. So the German’s hate of Jews was probably due to those degenerate Jewish commies trying to take over Europe…. every Anti Semite uses some pretense, Zionism was the Britsh and Arab’s. Why you believe them is beyond me
Health,
One more point, I happen to sympathize more with the Menachem Begin approach that trying to negotiate with and appease the British and Arabs into giving the Jews a state would have never worked and was a waste of time, but it wasn’t so clear to most people right away.
They figured (much like you do) that the British and Arabs weren’t really against the idea of giving the Jews a state and that they just had some valid “concerns” about the “stability” of the region and that if we would just compromise with them they would give us a state.
It took the British doing their best to flood E”Y with hostile Arabs while enforcing white paper after white paper only on Jewish immigration for most people (including Ben Hecht whose innacurate book perfidy which he put out to discredit Ben Gurion’s governement becasue he beleived that the Irgun (the people you call “Jewish Terorists”) should have been in charge of Israel is loved by people like you) to realize that trying to negotiate with the British was not going anywere
Health,
This idea that since some early Zionists in the process of making a state thought it was a good idea to slowly ease into the region and not just declare a state outright to the Pretty hostile English and the very hostile Arabs has no bearing on what would have happened had there been a state of Israel earlier.
The fact remains that Israel is the only country that allows Jews to settle in its borders and grants them citizenship simply by virtue of them being Jews.
If there was a state during WW2, there would of course have been no immigration quotas in the state, just like every religious, not religious and even anti Zionist Jew is given the right to settle is Israel now with no questions asked-just because they are Jewish.
Health,
You said
“the first person in the English Gov. to start limiting the immigration was Samuel, not some antisemitic Englishman.”
Yes because he believed that not shaking things up too much too fast with the British and Arabs was the smartest idea. It wasn’t out of some kind of desire to have less Jews in the Holy Land.
As an aside while the British were busy enforcing the white paper quotas on the Jews they were ignoring mass illegal Arab immigration into Palestine. It was their way of getting out of the commitments they made to the Jews-flood Palestine with hostile Arabs and let them do the dirty work
You said,
“It’s not my belief, it’s obvious from the facts. Noone gives a religion/nation a homeland because s/o else told them to. They did it because they wanted to. So they aren’t as antisemitic as you claim.”
Sure. They give it if they feel it will benefit them, they are pressured or if they are forced to give it up (Which ultimately is what happened. The Balfour declaration was a far cry from giving the Jews a country.
If you want to believe that British Goyim have some sort of special love for the Jews you can… I just can’t for the life of me figure out why…
“They became that way after they saw what the Zionists really were. Did you ever hear of Jewish terrorists before the creation of the Medina?”
You mean like Menachem Begin? You’re really on the side of the British on that one???? I’m sort of at a loss here.
I had one guy here saying that he didn’t blame the Americans for turning away Jews during the Holocaust because “The Jews are a bunch of socialist communists”
and now I have you are saying that the only reason the Arabs and British didn’t like Jews is because of “Jew Terrorists”
Yeah whatever… I just never realized that the newest in thing was to find ways to blame Jews for Goyim hating and killing them
TKND,
You said
“Oh, and suggesting that the IDF could have prevented the Holocaust is…”
That’s not what I’m suggesting and you know it. I’m suggesting that the Jews could have fled to E”Y and safety if there had been a state there that would take them in as Israel would.
There is no reason to assume that the Nazis would have been able to take the middle east just because there was more Jews there. It’s not like they had tons of resources to spare that they just weren’t bringing out because they didn’t think they needed them.
You said
“Again, forget what they say; look at what they do, and how that compares to how they treated us pre-1948.”
And look how the Jews were treated by the Germans before the Germans were defeated in WW1. Will you blame the Holocaust on Bolshevik Jews like the Neo Nazis do??
Besides this method of trying to find something wrong that a Zionist leader did or a bad judgement call that one made and pointing to that as if it proves that the idea of making a Jewish state is a bad one, or that the Jewish state does not benefit Jewry; has the same amount of validity as pointing to a Frum Rov who did a bad thing or made a bad judgement call and saying that the fact that a Rov made a bad decision (Like telling Jews to stay in Europe before ww2 for example) proves that Frum Jewry is bad….
Which is to say that it has no validity and is not an argument.
Health,
This copying entire Wikipedia articles as if they prove some sort of point is kind of annoying…
You said:
“The fact is that Britain didn’t put any limit on Jewish immigration to Palestine when they first took it over.”
Yeah, because they wren’t thinking about it when they first took it over. The second the Zionists starting getting enough Jews to settle in E”Y that the British noticed they all of a sudden became “concerned” about the “stability” and “effects” that the Jews were having in the region. A trend that continues among the Goyim today.
You said,
“The fact is Britain adopted the Balfour Declaration because they liked Jews, not like any other country ever did.”
Again you believe the British loved the Jews more then any other nation. I don’t know were you get this idea from, they signed the Balfour declaration very grudgingly, under pressure and ultimately betrayed it.
Your weird insinuations that High Commissioner Samuel or any Zionist was pro the white paper of 39 is absurd as well. (Samuel was high commissioner quite a bit before 39… I’m not sure why you brought him up at all….. as far as the white paper of 22 that whitepaper was allot more then would be allowed by Britain if the Jews didn’t compromise and blew the whole thing-contrary to what you seem to believe Britain was looking for a way out of the Balfour declaration almost as soon as they were pushed into issuing it)
Mdd,
you said
“Hitler would have for sure sent more troops if there had been a lot of Jews there. And the German army is a formidable enemy — they are not Arabs.”
From were?? Germany was fighting for survival against just about every superpower in the world, and lost before they could take the middle east. There is no reason to believe that the outcome of WW2 would have been any different had there been more European Jews in E”Y except that the Jews in E”Y probably would have survived the war and for sure would have been out of the reach of the Nazis.
Kanoi Next Door,
You said
“It wasn’t any harder to get in to America then it was to get into Israel post-WW2. How do you think half of today’s Jewish population ended up in the USA?”
What are you talking about?? after 1948 once there was a state of Israel of course it was easier for a European Jew to go to Israel! They were granted an automatic citizenship in Israel with no questions asked! America was making Jews jump through hoops and sending them back to Europe.
You said
“And be ch”v massacred in. The IDF would never have been able to stop the Nazis. So what would it have helped?…Only because there weren’t enough of them for the Nazis to make it a high priority (although even so, they came extraordinary close). If there would have been a Jewish State, the Nazis would have been much more keen on ch”v conquering and annihilating it.”
You are just making up facts now. The facts are that the Germans were plenty busy in Europe and that the war ended before the Nazis could take the middle east, there is no reason to assume that they would have reached E”Y sooner had there been more Jews there. In fact it makes sense to say that if the Germans knew they were facing a powerful Organized Army allied with opposing superpowers there they probably would have hesitated even longer to go out to the middle east. They didn’t need another front with a powerful Army.
You said
“Forget what the Arabs say; look at what they do. For thousands of years our Sefardi brethren coexisted with the Arabs in relative peace and prosperity (particularly when compared to what the situation was like in Christian Europe at the time)”
First of all this idea that Muslims always treated the Jews great is myth.
Second of all so this is the pretext the Arabs used the same way the Germans used the communist thing and the Christians used money lending etc. as a pretense.
Since when did listening to Anti Semites and agreeing with their reasons for killing us become a Frum thing to do??
Health,
You seem intent on taking Anti Semites at their words that the reason they hate Jews is really because of the pretext they give:
Do you beleive Chymlinczki that the reason he killed Jews was because they oppressed the masses?
How about Hitler who used the pretext that the Jews were communist Bolsheviks who caused Germany’s downfall in WW1
Or do you only believe the Arabs who used the pretext that they hate Jews because of Zionism?
Health,
You said
“The fact is the British Gov. did do it. No Gov. who hates Jews would do such a thing, pressure or Not.”
Besides for being untrue as many countries and rulers who dislike Jews will do something that benefits the Jews if it is in their interest and if they are pressured enough;
You haven’t put forward a good argument as to why you believe the British would have done what no other country was willing to do namely open borders of its territories to the fleeing Jews and not find a pretext to avoid doing so like the USA and every other country did.
Health,
The British only grudgingly wrote the Balfour Declaration due to the pressure the Zionists put on them, and because they felt it would further their relationship with the Wilson administration who’s top aides were Zionists. It would not have happened without the Zionists
The British didn’t write it due to any love of Jews and it doesn’t follow that they would have been happy to let masses of Jews emigrate to their colonies when every other country on earth found a pretense not too.
Health,
So you believe that the British would have been happy to open their borders to masses of Jews if not for the fact that the Arabs were opposed???
If that’s the case why didn’t America or any other country for that matter open their borders??
The British may have used the Arabs as a pretext, like Americans used the “Commie Jew” thing as a pretext. If you think it was more then a pretext you are dreaming
I guess it feels good to believe that we live in a world that likes Jews and were we are safe but the reality is otherwise…
About time,
you said
“You blame them? 4/10 members of the Communist Party USA in 1939 were Jews. The only district that elected a socialist party member to congress three times in a row was the Lower East Side.”
Yeah ok I guess those Jewish Bolshevik commies deserved to die. I guess we can’t blame the U.S. for sending Jewish woman and children back to Hitler to die.
Frankly I can’t believe I am seeing something like what you wrote on a Jewish site written by another Jew…. it’s the kind of thing you would see on a neo nazi site.
You said
“The meeting with Emir Fasel in 1919?”
Yeah… and….? The Zionists made a treaty with the Arabs at the time to attempt to work with them when Jews came in.
The zionists didn’t push the whitepaper! What on earth are you talking about?! The zionists organized mass illegal immigration in response to it.
Ah Talmid,
You said
“And, today, Israel is the most dangerous and deadly country for a Jew to live in.”
This is a blatant falsehood.
“The zionists caused the severe limitation of the ability of Jews to be allowed to go to Eretz Yisroel before the war.”
This is another falsehood. It’s simply not true. The Zionists were begging the Jews to emigrate for years before the war.
It’s weird to have a conversation with someone who makes up facts…
The Kanoi Next Door,
You said “So they would’ve all gone to America. Big whoop.”
Nope. The Good old U.S.A (and every other country for that matter) wasn’t too keen on taking in Jews and really didn’t care less about em-read a little history.
You said,
“Do you really think that the IDF would have been able to stop the Nazis? It took half the world to defeat the superpower that Germany was; a small army like the IDF wouldn’t have stood a chance. All that the existence of a Jewish State would have done is put all the Nazi’s targets in one place.”
You are missing the point: i think it would have given the Jews a place to run to. In fact the Jews that were in Eretz Yisroel weren’t harmed by the Nazis. Only the European yeshivas and Jewry was. Again, read a little history.
Health,
You said,
“You mean to tell me that Israel/Palestine opened up their borders during WW2? No, actually the Zionists told the English not to let the European Jews in.”
Of course it didn’t it was controlled by the British who cared about Jewish life as much as the Americans-which was not at all. As far as the second part of the quote above; that is simply a distortion of what happened, there was a limited amount of visas being offered by the British and the Zionists pushed for Zionists to get as many as they could- they didn’t encourage the British to not let yidden in to eretz yisroel the British didn’t want too because they like the Americans didn’t give a hoot about the Jews.
Health you said
“And which country was/is that? Israel seems to be the last country to take in Religious Jews.”
Actually Israel is the only country were a Religious Jew who is being prosecuted can run too and be granted citizenship and be allowed to stay in , with no questions asked simply by virtue of being a Jew.
Ah Talmid,
Well for one the fact that Iran doesn’t have a nuke while the IDF has quite a few provides a deterrent. The setbacks that the Israeli intelligence agencies have caused to Iran’s nuke program are well known as well….
Daniella,
Do you not see a compelling argument that if many of those Yidden who were killed had had a country they could run too that would have let them in and protect them as citizens during WW2 they would have had a better chance of survival???
Can you not see how someone could look at events like the holocaust were entire yeshivas were killed out WHILE they learned and every other country closed their borders to the escaping Jews and conclude that it is prudent to establish a place that will open its borders to all Jews and provide an Army to protect them??