Forum Replies Created
1.) That doesn’t answer why the suffering is necessary. I think we can all agree that causing unnecessary suffering is bad.
2.) Rabbi Miller’s answer is that the Jews didn’t follow Hashem so they had it coming. That’s what I have a problem with
Rabbi Miller isn’t saying that its a mystery. He’s giving a reason and saying that it makes sense.
How is that justice? Isn’t god supposed to be completely just, more just then the most just person?
I’m saying if I will believe in a God I have to believe he is Good.
1.) No, it doesn’t follow that if you create a living feeling being you have the right to kill or torture it just because you gave it life.
2.) What about the innocents. Over a million little children died horrible painful deaths. What about the Tzadikim who didn’t rebel against Hashem? What about those who didn’t know better?
It shouldnt if they can communicate and really respect each others view points, even if they disagree with them. They will have to make certain practical decisions like sending their children to Frum schools and come to an agreement as to how they act in front of the children and or in public where it will affect the children. If they can do this (and I believe many can) then they will be fine. If they agree on what to do practically why is it any different then disagreeing on what constitutes good music or food etc.
Dylan has some of the most inspirational songs ever written.
Every grain of sand.
I could name a ton more if you like those
Yea you will be tortured by big scary black Malachim who will cause you more pain then evreyone suffered in the Holocaust evrey second you are there. (My rebbeim actually told me that this is what happens in Gihennom)
Why it is not child abuse to tell children the sort of things that lead to questions like the OP’S is beyond me. I always wonder how otherwise nice people can say these kinds of things to impressionable children.
Interesting point. Except that people change, very possibly someone was completely frum going into a marriage but lost those beliefs somewhere down the line. Especially if they were married young.
Why would there be tension if the person didn’t con you?
Interesting…. Even when I fully believed I always knew that if I loved my wife, I wouldn’t let Frumkeit be a “make it or break it” issue for me. I wonder realistically how many people would make it one push comes to shove.
Yeah, what’s a chick book?? My wife read most of the books I list above and she liked them….
If you caught your spouse texting on Shabbos what would you do? (assuming that your in a good place relationship wise)
The Wolf of Wall Street by Jordan Belfort (non fiction)
The Ice Man by Philip Carlo (non fiction)
Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahaneman (non fiction)
Busting Vegas by Ben Mezrich (dramatized non fiction)
21 by Ben Mezrich (dramatized non fiction)
Pillars of the Earth and its sequel World without end by Ken Follet (fiction)
The Prime Ministers by Yehuda Avner (non fiction)
Fall of giants by Ken Follet (fiction)
The Hot Zone by Richard Preston (dramatized non fiction)
Jurassic Park by Michael Chricton (fictio)
Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams
The Lincoln Lawyer by Michael Connely (fiction)
At home by Bill Bryson (non fiction)
She clearly said that she stopped teaching once she started having serious doubts for that very reason.
Why do you feel a need to have to explain to your kids how they met??
Of course Shalom Bayis should come first. This is common sense. If all religious people put the Bein Adam Lchavairos before the Bein Adam Lmakoms the religious (and rest of the world for that matter) would be a much better place
Religious leaders have censored things that they don’t want the public to see and threatened people with eternal punishments for not thinking like them for as long as religious leaders have existed. Nothing new there.
You can’t “enforce” things like Tznius. The world is too open. If people get upset they will just leave your Shul and make freinds with people that don’t care about tznius. If you want people to keep tznius you need to sell them on it, and convince them to WANT to keep it.
If you can’t make people want to keep something or see the value in it then there is other issues with it anyway.
Also the Prism isn’t “silent” on what happened after Sancheirivs siege on Jerusalem. It says that Chizkiyahu bought sancheiriv off by giving him Gold and all of his wives and daughters and that Chizkiyahu became a tributary ruler under sancheiriv. Quite a different account then the one Nach gives….
Why don’t you just answer my questions on the Mabul story?
I answered just everything else you brought up in the “why i am also still frum” thread. I’m not going through it again here. Anyone can read it there.
I look forward to your answers
The tree is still alive. The Mabul should have knocked it down. There should be no trees standing from before the Mabul happened. Not to mention houses and cave paintings. Right?
There are houses that have been standing for more then 4200 years (when the mabul should have happened according to the Mesorah) There are trees that have been alive for longer then that. Some of the Pyramids are older then that. There are paintings that have been around for longer then that.
These are just some of the problems with the Mabul story. There are many more.
It’s when they say that women are intellectually inferior that people get offended.. Saying men and woman are different in of itself is not what offends most people.
I am in a position similar to yours, except my emotional attachment to those beliefs is somewhat less. Just go along with what makes you feel good. If you “feel” an attachment to God by going to shul etc. on Yom Kippur or if it makes you/ your wife feel good then do it. Some introspection and thinking about how you can improve yourself and make yourself a better person is a good thing even if there is no God and/or Yom Kippur is a man made holiday.
This moderator is tired of dealing with these same posts. Start a thread on the topic and keep it in that thread. Thank you.
When I say it’s a “fact” I mean that you cant write a fact like the length of the month if you do not know it. It’s not a “historical” narrative told after the fact by people with a clear agenda; which as you pointed out can be easily twisted. I asked for an example of something scientific that was known to Chazal and no one else and you provided me with something that chazal said that was already known by non Jews in the times of Chazal.
I am not confusing anything. The amount of time between new moons had been correctly calculated before 120 BCE by the Greeks and as far back as 300 BCE by the Babylonians as I mentioned in my earlier comments. This is not based off of any religious text. It’s a fact.
I am not saying Chazal weren’t more knowledgable then the Average citizen in their time. Im sure they were very educated in the “science” of their time. The average citizen probably didn’t know anything.
The calculation made by Rabban Gamliel had already been made by Hipparchus who died in 120 BCE and was known to the Babylonians from around 300 BCE. Rabban Gamliel lived well after both.
How do you know any of the things you keep repeating are true? How is “because my rebbe told me” a good reason to believe something?
Can you provide a single example of Chazal making a scientific statement that was not known to anyone else in their time? The Rambam was very well versed in 13th century “medicine”. Do you believe he was ahead of his time? If yes can you bring some examples of where?
Why do you think Chazal were great? (Don’t answer because my rebbeim told me they are… Give a real answer) Honest question.
Of course Chazal need your “approval”. Why should you accept them as great people if you don’t appreciate what they did/wrote or see anything great about it? (I am not saying I believe they weren’t “great” I’m just saying your point about them not needing anyone’s “approval” seems kind of silly…)
My point was that if you are searching for something that will make Frum Judaisim seem more grounded in reality in the same way science is Gemara is not going to do that. The Halachic (as opposed to aggadic) discussions are a bit complex but you have to accept a whole lot of premises and “laws” in order for them to not be laughable.
Like David Bar Magen said unless you are willing to accept a lot on faith you are not going to find learning Gemara satisfying unless you are the kind of person who would enjoy delving into the details of Tolkien’s middle earth, and accepting answers based on “laws” made up by the authors.
David bar Magen,
Religion fills an emotional and societal role that a lot of people need. As someone that has learned Gemara I can tell that though it is more “complex” it is not in any way scientific in it’s methods. Religion is not scientific. It just isn’t.
Not so into tribute bands. There is a certain beauty in watching (in this case hearing as well) an artist/creator display their creations. Music is no different, it’s amazing to see and/or hear some of these Artists perform.
Floyd, Ozzie, Guns N Roses & Aerosmith are second…
Then the Beatles….maybe
The prison/penal system in the USA is ridiculous. With the exception of those who commit the most heinous crimes I feel bad for people doing time is prison and am happy this woman got out wether she is guilty or not
Again your whole premise (that whenever someone says or writes that God is speaking through them there is a 50/50 chance that he is) is false. The chances of God (even assuming he exists) actually dictating anything to any particular person are extremely small.
When someone says God dictated something to them they are saying that something that has very little chance of occurring has in fact happened to them. That is why when someone on a street corner tells us that he has had a conversation with God we write him off as insane by default.
If you want us to believe that a book was dictated by God and is not just another construct of humans (like the Koran or Book of Mormon or any of the other multitude of religious writings that claim to be dictated by angels or gods) you need to bring evidence that that particular book is different. An example would be something written in it that could not have possibly have been known by humans at that time (like the speed of light for example) would be evidence that human beings didn’t write it. The prophecies you keep mentioning are vague enough that there are endless discussions in the Gemara simply trying to figure out how, when and what those prophecies are even reffering to. The fact that people believed something was divine for many years doesn’t increase the chances that it is either. It a totally irrelevant point.
If I told you that the reason apples fall is because there are little invisible elves who live under apple trees that pull the apples down, but that really apples float, the burden of proof would be on me. It is the same exact thing.
Being that everything appears to operate according to the laws of nature, and you can accurately predict what will happen based on this, you need to bring evidence that there aren’t laws of nature and everything is in fact just the whims of an intelligent creator who just likes to always act the same way.
If you could bring ANY evidence for Krias Yam Suf that would be great.
Google miracle of the sun at Fatima.
You are wrong on the Koran. The Koran claims that the Jewish bible is not an accurate account of anything. In any case Christanity and islam are not the only other religions out there. There are hundreds of other religions as well that do not believe anything happened at Sinai.
There are plenty of miracle stories in the Christian bible and other religious writings that are claimed to have happened in front of thousands of people.
So according to what you are saying we have a book written by men who make a claim that it was dictated to them by God. The Koran and many other relgious books make the same claim it is hardly a unique claim for a religous book to make.
That someone claims that a book they wrote was inspired by God is not evidence that it was.
If I write a book and claim that God inspired me to write it, that is not evidence that he did; and in fact most reasonable people will not believe me, UNLESS I could bring you very compelling evidence that it was, but the burden of proof would be totally on me.
Again the prophecies you mention are very vague and broad and are standard issue threats of punishment for disobeying God and promises of being taken care of if you follow his word.
You agree that the first and reasonable conclusion you have when you find a book is that it was written by men
You agree that evrey other book that has been claimed to be divinely inspired is in fact not divinely inspired.
You want me to believe that this particular book is different and was in fact dictated by God.
Can you provide any evidence?
Addiction can be physical. People who have substance addictions in many cases cannot stop without having severe physical reactions
If these things were preordained by God because he knows the future then they should only be as predictable as Human behavior. They shouldn’t seem to follow set laws.
As for your second answer about the Mirror thing. Really? We are talking about Mitzius here; if it isn’t true you have one of two options
1.) you misunderstood what they meant i.e. they didn’t mean what you thought they meant (that a blood spot would appear)
2.)They were wrong.
To say that they where talking about a Mitzius that only applies to people on a certain Madreiga when they don’t indicate this themselves seems kind of silly
How is it not a Stira? I’m asking sincerely.
My point is that you can go on about logical fallacies all day but the point is that when I make plans for tommorow based on the “beleif” that the laws of gravity will still be here then, it works. Religion has no such thing, there is nothing fundamental and testable in my life that would change if Religion isn’t true; and the burden of proof is always on religion. You dont logically need proof to not beleive i.e If evrey book ever written is written by men and you wish to believe that one book out of all books is written by a God, you have to prove that it is. It is impossible to “prove” that it isn’t written by God but you also can’t “prove” that it didn’t write itself. The fact that you can’t prove that something didn’t happen doesn’t mean that it is logical to believe that it did.
By working practically I mean it works practically to make predictions based on it.
You can call it beleif if you want but it is a very different type of belief then religious beleif in that there is practical testable results that show that the beleif is true
I mean makes a lot of sense in that it works. Practically.
As far as the second point; my point was simply that the fact that laws of nature exists is not a premise accepted on blind faith as you inferred in your earlier comment.
Also I responded to you on the “why I am also frum” thread. Did you see it?