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gavra, why is it fair for you to insist on hard facts, after you were just moida you based your assumptions on… assumptions, hearsay and veibel speak? (Anyways, why would you even be mekabel such bad stuff?)
Yes the children make a chassidish marriage tick. The ahava. The Avodas Hashem. There are so many things. Gov’t benefits is not one of them though. Community support is.
Its all a matter of madreiga. Someone on a higher madreiga may realize fiction is inappropriate, but for the hamon am it is not forbidden.
Is everything a Yarei Shamayim does written down somewhere? Is everything that is common sense written down somewhere? The two intersect, and many things expected from a Yarei Shamayim are intuitive that isn’t written.
However you define feminism, one thing is for sure. Our Gedolim have said feminism is Keneged HaTorah and a very bad thing.
gavra, I’m not sure whether you are correct or incorrect regarding the reasons you attribute to Chasidish marriages (actually you are at least partially incorrect as Chasidishe couples do have expectations from their spouses, and they do NOT think abuse is the norm; aside from it being rare, I think its clear you don’t have much first hand experiance with Chasidishe marriages and what makes them tick), but I do know that the reasons they think “everything is good” is NOT for the reasons you attribute but rather because by and large everything generally IS good. Yes, they have simpler expectations, but that is a GOOD thing.
B’H; it was a bit ambiguous, thanks. It’s an important factor to be cognizant of…
I hope no one is suggesting that one shouldn’t be makpid not to go where there are tznius issues…
I just want to amend something I’ve posted yesterday. Semi-straight skirts fall in the same catefory as straight skirts and do need at least 4″ from under the knee cap to cover the knee, not only when sitting but when moving around while sitting.
Straight and semi-straight skirts can ride up slightly (or a lot-depending on the skirt and figure)when sitting, while skirts that have enough fabric in the width, do not ride up and therefore for me (everyone needs to check it out for themselves) 2.5-3″ of skirt lenghth from under the knee, sufficiently covers the knee area.
This thread has made me more tznius concious than I’ve been. I think writing about it, makes one become more observant in this area. I think that if the schools would require of their students one essay a year with a topic and/or discussion such as “why tznius is important to me” or “how did my perception of tznius change within the course of a year” it would get girls a chance to explore the topic of tznius how it pertains to them and to think about tznius in a constructive manner.
clearheaded- I think that would be a great idea.
I agree with you that we need to increase educating girls to have more busha. The lack of busha is a large reason of the too prevalent lack of tznius we see often. I am of the opinion that often the same people who don’t dress properly also are too loud and act improper in public. We need to stress both areas, tznius and busha, for a bas yisroel and teaching one should not detract from teaching the other.
clearheaded- Baruch Hashem! We have to encourage more of our sisters to be proactive and attentive to this vital area of insuring that when purchasing and tailoring their skirts, it covers their knees regardless of their positions. This area is very lacking unfortunately in public much too often.
GITGEZUGT- that is unfortunately so true!
clearheaded- for the skirt to cover your knees while getting into a car or walking on a windy day the skirt needs to be longer than if it just covers the knee when sitting down. Even when sitting down unfortunately you see so many girls needing to keep pulling their skirt down. Usually by time they pull it down it is because men were passing by and they were too late. This is so not right. The skirt needs to be long enough in the first place that they shouldn’t have to ever be pulling it to properly cover their knees.
“Which leaves us to decide if the Posek is biased or not?”
No. Only another posek can disagree. The man on the street can’t.
Its also important to remember that testing it sitting down will not show you how long it must be, since it must be longer than covering you just when sitting down. It goes higher than the knee (even more than when sitting) when you get into a car, walk upstairs, walk on a windy day, and other normal everyday situations that require the skirt to be longer than simply covering your knees when sitting.
trying- I agree. People should follow their Rebbeim. If you are in doubt as to who you should have as your Rebbeim, then you are fully entitled to follow those who find more favor in your eyes. You have to choose somehow, and its better to choose based on who you hold is bigger, or more correct, rather than whatever the newspapers or internet say you should do.
well you never said which rosh yeshiva (other than claim he is well known/respected), so i don’t believe it is fair to compare the position of an anonymous rosh yeshiva (especially since theres no way to verify your claim) against Reb Moshe.
you need to measure since the dressing room doesn’t have a staircase and the clothing store isn’t windy and doesn’t have a car in it. so you must estimate how many inches below the knee (the rule of thumb is 4 inches below the knee) the skirt must be that will suffice to cover the knees from all positions and all angles at all times in all conditions.
I never saw it inside, but I’d bet a doughnut that Reb Moshe is referring to one posek arguing with another posek, and not a man on the street arguing with a talmid chochom like Reb Moshe was talking about in the first posting here.
Ok, that’s a good suggestion you made SJS.
Everyone should always sit down, stand up, lean over, etc. when buying and fitting/tailoring a dress to make sure that the dress covers you in all positions like walking up stairs/down stairs, walking in a wind, into/out of a car, sitting down/standing up, etc.
You still need to measure it though to make sure it’ll cover your knees on a windy day, etc., that its long enough below the knees that a wind won’t bring it up too high. Also, by measuring it you can get a good idea if it is sufficiently long enough below the knees (4 inches for example) so that it’ll cover you going up stairs, etc.
SJS “And for the love of pete, never take out a ruler to measure her skirt when fitting her for a uniform.”
Its necessary to measure the skirt before fitting it so that you can be sure it will cover the knees in ALL positions.
The knees need to be covered at all times by the skirt even if wearing knee highs. Knee highs are a tight clothing and not tznuah to be the only cover of an area that must be covered. A short skirt is never tznuah.
It is important to be cognizant of the fact that in order to be properly tznuah at all times (so that the knee and above is covered at all times in all positions from all angles), that the skirt should be at least 4 inches below the knee so that it covers the knee even when you are walking, sitting, getting up, into or out of a car, outside in the wind, etc.
Its also important that the skirt is long enough to cover the knees at all times from all sides in all positions so that you don’t have to suddenly “pull” down the skirt every time a man or boy walks by, since you will surely forget or be too late many times.
Everyone says that the skirt must be long enough so that it is covered even when getting up, sitting down, getting into a car, walking in the wind, etc. Unfortunately many don’t conform properly.
many poskim hold basic shok from chazal includes below the knee.
others hold covering below the knee is per the accepted custom which one cannot deviate from.
I learnt that chazal wrote “Shok b’isha ervah” – “the leg of a woman is ervah” (area that must be covered). The knee and above must be fully covered at all times front and back per basic halacha (Shok b’isha ervah) so this typically means a skirt with at least 4 inches below the knee so that it is covered even when sitting, getting up, into a car or walking outside in a bit of a wind. Below the knee it must be covered in stockings per poskim who say chazal are referring to below the knee or otherwise the accepted Orthodox practice, which you halachicly cannot deviate from.
Another terrible problem lately is ppl wearing low necklines or tight fitting clothes.
girls remember your full knees need to be covered at all times front and back not just when you are standing, but also when you are walking, getting into a car, sitting, or the wind is blowing also…