13 Responses

1. The “bottom line” questions:

   1) Could/Would/Should IDF expand Hareidi units to accomodate all Hareidim they hope to conscript?

   2) Would these end up similar to American “Buffalo soldiers” (“colored” regiments commanded by white officers that existed in the American army from the 1860s to the 1940s? Would the IDF tolerate generals, pilots, etc., with “beard and pe’os”?

   3) Would the Israelis trust such units to follow orders if the orders conflict with the halachic interpretation of the soldiers’ personal rabbanim (noting that many soldiers personal rabbanim might feel it against halacha to evict Jews from their homes in the West Bank, espcially on Shabbos). Is this a recipe for a mutiny?

2. FYI Akuperma…Heurablurtzin is a Geman word that means “high-sounding nonsense.”

3. YonasonW: What do you consider to be “nonsense”?

   If the IDF conscripts soldiers and is perceived as mistreating them (issues of kashrus, halacha, serving with anti-religious bigots, Shabbos observance, discrimination in opportunities for advancement, etc.), they wil lend up with a large chunk of the army being very alienated, and perhaps mutinous. Already they have had problems, with the limited number of hareidim in the army (and those serving now are highly motivated volunteers). The hilonim believe that army service will cause most hareidim to “stop being so fanatic” and if not as hilonim, at leas will end up being no “worse” (from their perspective) than religious zionists – but that’s unlikely to happen.

   What will happen if a hareidi soldier qualifies for promotion, but is denied promotion because he is too much of a fanatic (which has already happened)? What will happen if soldiers are ordered to tear down Jews’ houses on Shabbos (which has already happened)? If serving in “mixed” units, how will a hareidi soldier react if he as to live off of uncooked food since the base kitchen’s kashrut is deficient (already has happened), or if he is given the choice of breakfast or davening in the morning (again, in a non-combat garrison/training situation).

4. The so-called “Nahal Hareidi” units of the IDF are mostly non-Chareidi religious zionist (DL) soldiers.

5. The Nahal Hareidi units include BOTH the kippah segurah and black hat types and they get along just fine. They have served with great distinction in combat and won many battlefield deoorations. The comments about these units posing threats to the neshmas of the soldiers are both untrue and insulting both to the IDF and the members of the Nahal units. Kol hakovod to the new enlistees from the chareidi kehillah. These bochurim are doing a great kiddush hashem and will be rewarded for their bravery and self-sacrifice.

6. #4 Not according to my nephew and visit that the family made to Nahal Charedi base.
   A large amount are Charedi religious zionists known as Chardal yet there is a showing which is growning of Charedi without the “dal” part from Har Nof, Ramot, Bayit Vgan, Telse Stone, Nvei Yakov, Bnei Brak and even Beitar.

7. Akuperma

   There are two seperate and distincty issues here. First, the discipline instilled in a modern armed force…when the Commander in Chief says go…you go.

   That’s why despite it’s segregationist past (and BTW, “Buffalo Soldiers” were cavalry in the late 19th Century…the term was never used to apply to Black only transportation units or the like in WWII) the military became a model of desegragation years before comparable gains were made in civilian life…whatever their personal dispositions…they followed lawful orders.

   That’s why my son was able to muster support from Evangelical chaplains when looking for Kosher food when he was in the Army…they were following lawful orders.

   That’s why staunchly segregationist and states-rights Mississippi National Guard officers led the effort to force desegregation of Ole Miss in 1962, after President Kennedy nationalized the Guard…they were following lawful orders.

   And no less should be expected of Zahal soldiers.

   The second issue relates to how Zahal accommodates the HALACHIC requirements of frum soldiers…not hoshkofic preferences. Putting hoshkofa prejudices aside, I think that Netzach Yehuda has done an admirable job in this regard…and too many of the comments here are nothing more than “shape of the yarmulka” swipes at another’s hashkofa…always so evil when aimed at “my” hoskofa- but just oh so justified when I aim it at others’.

8. go frum soldiers go. I am with you, and many other frum people support you too

9. YonasonW: Who do you think you are kidding. For example, surely you know the many many times the Israeli Army FORCED against their will religious soldiers to listen to Kol Isha, women singing at a military CHOIR. Kol Ishas is a HALACHIC, not hashkafic, prohibition. There are so many more examples, many much much worse than those.

10. YonasonW :

    That the American government is legitimate is accepted by virtually all Americans (except for a few Indians, and they don’t press the matter). A large number of Israelis, perhaps most (if you count the Arabs as well as the frum Jews) don’t accept the that the government of Medinat Yisrael is other than a de facto government (it’s there, we work with it, but they are usupers). Many if not most Orthodox Jews (including even many non-fanatic Religious Zionists, plus all Hareidim) argue that Torah is the constitution of Eretz Yisrael, and anything to the contrary is unconstitutional and illegitimate. As a consequence, almost all Orthodox Jews who do serve in the army do so not out of love and respect of the secular government, but to help what they perceive as their country and their people. An order that is contrary to Torah will be ignored.

    In the United States there is a deep respect for the legitimacy of the government. No army unit has ever mutinied. In England, the last mutiny was in the 17th century. Obedience to civilian orders is part of the military tradition. In the American civil war, southern officers always formally resigned before changing sides. Furthermore, America has since the late 18th century had a tremendous respect for religion and religious diversity. It is part of our culture. In Israel, the dominant culture is rabidly anti-religious, embracing the military secularism and “freedom from religion” that is very European and very alien to most Americans. Military service in the American army might be possible (though it ends up they don’t want or need us, but are very respectful about it). In Israel, creating an army of viciously anti-religious officers commanding strictly orthodox Jews is a recipe for disaster.

11. #9 Another outsider, who has never been part of the IDF or religious groups rather one who consumes Media and its stories….

    There are so many accomodations and halachic alternatives given. If you are interested, do some fact finding.

12. #11: No accommodations were provided by the Israeli Military to the religious soldiers who requested an accommodation to be excused from listening to Kol Isha. This has occurred multiple times. And much worse non-accommodation by the Israeli Military of observance of the Jewish Torah by Jewish religious soldiers has occurred for other religious requirements, including in many instances kashrus.

13. it’s there, we work with it, but they are usupers—and who are the original relinquishers?

    BTW dont know if you have hit the shores of the USA recently, among many residents (citizens and non) the deep respect for the legitimacy (rules, regulations, laws, safety concerns, zoning laws, IRS tax codes, etc.)of the American government has gone out the window and the orthodox (or ultra) are part of that constituents!!