A third of Litvish families I know, have one or more single daughters 25 and up

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  • #597607

    Ofcourse
    Member

    A third of Litvish families I know, have one or more single daughters, age 25 and up, some have two or three single daughters 25 and up.

    Does this hold true only among my acquaintances?

    When I tell this to Chassidic friends and relatives they say something is very wrong.

    I agree.

    What do we do about it?

    #908878

    Pac-Man
    Member

    AZ has already explained that many of these girls will never ever be able to get married, since there are not anymore available bachelors for all of them. Simple math. They’ll never be able to get married. Once the age gap is closed, as AZ explained, future generations of girls will be able to all get married. But the current generation? As AZ has long pointed out there is no solution to get them all married. Closing the age gap will help the future generations. Many of today’s 25 – 35+ year olds are going to be up the creek, as AZ sadly noted.

    #908879

    Ofcourse
    Member

    Pac, Many of today’s 25 – 35+ year olds are going to be up the creek, as AZ sadly noted.

    I thought the majority of CR-mates didnt agree with him. I do agree, btw.

    In any case, we are talking big numbers here. What will happen with girls who can never get married in our circles? Will most tolerate being old maids or will they leave the community, and date others?

    In the eyes of the Torah, is marrying a Jew, even a drastically less religious Jew, or a totally secular Jew, better than staying single, or vice versa? If anyone is aware of any Gedolim’s thoughts on this, please share.

    #908880

    Dr. Pepper
    Participant

    Ofcourse-

    I agreed with him on his numbers, I just disagreed with him on his methods and tactics.

    #908881

    Pac-Man
    Member

    AZ spoke to the Gedolim about the age gap. So perhaps he can enlighten us as to what to do about the girls who will never be able to get married since the current generation no longer has enough bachelors for them all.

    #908882

    Pac-Man
    Member

    Dr. P. –

    Once you acknowledge his numbers, what is there to disagree with his methods and tactics? What would be your preferred alternative?

    #908883

    real-brisker
    Member

    Everyones shidduch was created 40 days before yitziras havlad.

    #908884

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Take the girls up to YU. Lots of available single males, all shomrei torah umitzvos. The problem is that they have excluded such available single males from their pool of possible shidduchim. I don’t know why. But it is sad.

    #908885

    jakyweb
    Member

    Multiple reasons for older singles. Many girls do not want to support learning boys which seems to be the prevailing population in yeshiva circles nowadays. They want to stay home with their babies. Another reason is that bt the time other girls are ready to support a family with a profession, they are too old for the yeshiva boys who have married the younger girls who were willing to go support the learning boys on a meager salary.

    #908886

    Pac-Man
    Member

    So someone who never got married had been decreed 40 days before yitziras havlad that he/she will never get married?

    #908887

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Everyones shidduch was created 40 days before yitziras havlad.

    Rav Moshe Shternbuch had an interesting and Halachic piece regarding this in last week’s Yated. It is not that simple.

    IMHO (and the mods can decide not to print it, if they desire), girls who feel they have no chance of getting married and want to have a family should pair up (as friends of course, but the law may allow for further legal ability) and adopt children, of which there is a need. They can then raise their Yiddish family.

    #908888

    Pac-Man
    Member

    Ofcourse – the MO have the same issue with the numbers. And marrying a irreligious is certainly wrong. (And almost no irreligious guy is going to allow his wife to keep the Torah, halacha, taharas hamishpacha, etc.)

    #908889

    midwesterner
    Participant

    That statistic (one in three families) reminds me of a friend I once had who was a student in a small center-left yeshiva. He told me, “25% of the bochurim in the Bais Medrash wear black hats.” When I questioned him, he said, “Sure! There are 4 bochurim, and I wear a black hat!”

    I know hundreds of Litvishe families, and I can think of maybe a dozen girls over age 25 in those families, excluding those that have personal issues that would make them difficult or impossible to marry off in any climate. And three of those dozen are in one family, may Hashem send them some brachos and yeshuos really soon! So I would say that in my unscientific statistical sample, that one in 50 families has a marriagable girl over age 25 that is still looking.

    #908890

    Dr. Pepper
    Participant

    Pac-Man-

    I try very hard to remove myself from any controversial issue so let me just give you a basic parable;

    A group of friends are boating in a lake when their boat starts to sink. Some may say it’s not sinking while others may agree that it is sinking but disagree on the method to handle the situation (pump out the water, make a dash for the dock, throw the deniers overboard…).

    So, while I agree that there is a situation that needs to be taken care of, I don’t agree with his ideology.

    #908891

    shein
    Member

    girls who feel they have no chance of getting married and want to have a family should pair up (as friends of course, but the law may allow for further legal ability) and adopt children, of which there is a need.

    I’m not aware of any significant amount of Jewish children up for adoption. And I don’t think gentile children up for adoption is a need for our klal. Besides, I think there is an adoption waiting list for them in any event.

    #908892

    Who is AZ???

    #908893

    he is joseph

    #908894

    Dr. Pepper
    Participant

    enlightenedjew-

    I’m not going to give his real name but he campaigns (on YWN and elsewhere) for males to marry females that are the same age as them or even older than them to get rid of the “age gap”.

    According to a friend of his that I spoke with, he uses AZ because he knows everything from A to Z.

    He should be here soon.

    #908895

    so hes not joseph?

    #908896

    Pac-Man
    Member

    Dr. P. –

    It seems you just restated your disagreement (on methods not numbers) without providing an even general alternative. You’re saying something’s got to be done, and even something you don’t agree with is better than nothing. Understood. But in your ideal opinion (even understanding that you would agree to go along with a less than idea solution rather than arguing), what would be the most effective solution if you had a choice – and no one would argue with you?

    #908897

    littleapple
    Member

    The situation in Shanghai during the holocaust led to some very unusual pairings, there it was yeshiva bochurim with daughters of Jews of all types who “happened” to be in Shanghai. Reb Moshe clearly said a spiritual holocaust is worse than a physical one and this is an example, nevertheless we definitely need to think out of the box for our daughters sakes!

    #908899

    Ofcourse
    Member

    apu, Take the girls up to YU. Lots of available single males, all shomrei torah umitzvos. The problem is that they have excluded such available single males from their pool of possible shidduchim. I don’t know why. But it is sad.

    A nechtiger tug! No way! Same problem there. Each of the YU guys have tens of Sterns girls to date, who they much prefer! They need the surplus Bais Yaakov girls?

    #908900

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    According to a friend of his that I spoke with, he uses AZ because he knows everything from A to Z.

    They are the initials of a significant person in his life.

    Everyones shidduch was created 40 days before yitziras havlad.

    What’s your point with that? Are you saying that nobody ever died without getting married?

    BTW, the source of that is Sotah 2a. See Tos’ there.

    #908901

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    In the eyes of the Torah, is marrying a Jew, even a drastically less religious Jew, or a totally secular Jew, better than staying single, or vice versa? If anyone is aware of any Gedolim’s thoughts on this, please share.

    I think this is at least part the problem. Too many boys are disillusioned with shidduchim, the Klal, Tuition, and others, so that even if they are “frum”, the Bais Ya’akov girls don’t want to date them.

    They don’t want to date Bais Ya’akov girls either. They have no interest in someone telling them they have to go to shiur, pay tuition, etc. And why should they? They would rather be single than have a nagging wife that will probably lead to divorce.

    #908902

    How do you think older singles feel reading that basically it’s hopeless for them and they probably will never get married? What do you hope to accomplish by instilling hopelessness and fear in the already broken hearts of singles?

    #908903

    @ pacman: where is the emunah in your first post? just because az said something, it becomes written law? doesn’t Hashem have a hand in this? i’m not saying that there arent ppl who never got married. what i am saying tho, the more ppl who leave this all in the hand of statistics and age gaps, and what not, the bigger the crisis we have. but that’s not a shidduch crisis. that is an emunah crisis. the worst one ever. which is probably why we are where we are today.

    WAKE UP AM YISROEL! TRUST IN HASHEM! DO YOU THINK HE WANTS TO CAUSE YOU PAIN? NO WAY! YOU ARE HIS PRECIOUS CHILD AND HE TAKES CARE OF YOU LIKE YOU CAN’T EVEN BEGIN TO IMAGINE! SOMETIMES, WE JUST ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO UNDERSTAND WHY HE DOES WHAT HE DOES. BUT IT IS ALL FOR OUR ULTIMATE GOOD. YOU JUST HAVE TO BELIEVE!

    sorry, i know you all hate caps, but when i am trying to bring an important point across, i will use it.

    singles, don’t lose hope. imagine this scenario: you just come home from another date and basically the guy/ girl calls it off. you are emotionally drained and feel like you can’t handle life anymore. and you go into your room and you cry bitter tears into your pillow. MAKE IT A TFILLA! DON’T WASTE YOUR TEARS! MAYBE HASHEM JUST WANTS ONE MORE TFILLA WITH TEARS AND THEN HE WOULD SEND YOU YOUR DESTINED ONE! but there is no way you can know. so try anyway, it obviously can’t hurt to try. and you might be very pleasantly surprised at the outcome. remember HASHEM LOVES YOU!

    when you want something just PUSH- Pray Until Something Happens!

    and have emunah! for if you don’t believe, how do you expect to have a fulfilling and happy life????? don’t let go of that emunah, and a special deep relationship with Hashem!!!!!!

    #908904

    Pac-Man
    Member

    correction: As AZ noted, those are the cold, hard, sad facts. Do you want him to lie?

    At least they’re working on it being fixed for future generations, even though there is nothing to do about it to fully help the current generation (and perhaps not the next one too – if the close-in-age solution doesn’t fully take effect fast enough.)

    #908905

    missfrizzle
    Member

    To all of you who claim to be G-d and say really ridiculous things like “they will not be able to get married” I am glad you were not in mitzayim when we needed to get out. I am sure you would have said, ” there aint no way we getting out” oops!! surprise to you, Hashem spit the sea! And here we are today.

    Maybe you should just stop following the Torah, because you are missing the most important point. Emuna and Bitachon. There are enough singles around for every person to get married. Maybe you don’t know them all,(New York is not the only place where frum people live) and if people would stop caring about the dumbest things, and Lashon Hara, and what other people thought we’d all be better off. Singles please dont lose faith. It WILL happen! Naysayers go answer to Hashem and keep your mouths closed!

    Good Shabbos to all!

    #908906

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    correction: It is not hopeless, but you may have to give up your dream, whether it is a learning boy or someone who is Kovah Itim (or maybe even someone frum). Either way, it is a choice.

    ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?”? ?? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ?????

    Guys are not like that.

    #908907

    gregaaron
    Member

    @pac-man:

    So you feel that HKBH just forgot about our generation, and 40 days before we were born He just took the day off. And you can tell your friend AZ – numbers don’t mean anything if HKBH doesn’t want them to. If it was based purely on numbers, no frum family would be able to survive financially.

    @gavra:

    I really, really hope you’re joking.

    edited

    #908908

    Pac-Man
    Member

    Missfrizzle: AZ has clearly demonstrated that there simply, and mathematically, is NOT enough bachelors for every girl to get married under the current system.

    #908909

    gregaaron
    Member

    “Please let this be a normal posting…”

    “With the Friz?”

    “No way!!!”

    Great post, MissFrizzle, couldn’t have said it better myself!!

    #908910

    Pac-Man
    Member

    gavra: As bad as it is, telling the girls to marry someone not frum is not an option.

    #908911

    Ofcourse
    Member

    To those who are encouraging Bitachon, that goes hand in hand with Hishtadlus.

    Its imperative that we deeply analyze why other groups dont have this problem and we do, and do whatever can be done about it, in addition to putting our faith in Hashem.

    Do cancer patients not seek treatment? Do they reject all treatment options and rely strictly on Bitachon?

    #908912

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    @gavra:

    I really, really hope you’re joking.

    I really, really wish I was joking.

    About what?

    gavra: As bad as it is, telling the girls to marry someone not frum is not an option.

    I don’t disagree with you (a Rov might, though), which is why I said “maybe even”. None the less, that is a choice, and “frum” is a matter of degree that the girl might decide she can live with.

    #908914

    AZ
    Participant

    Dr. P

    I’m not quite sure what you mean when you refer to “my ideology”.

    As for the name AZ your contact is incorrect.

    With regards to the girls who have already dated quite some time and are still single. So long as there are any older single boys out there, any individual older girl certainly has opportunities to get married. Is it possible for all of them… i’d rather not answer that question- It’s simply to painful.

    B”H as a result of the significant progress that has been made and continues to be made- many many slightly older girls are getting shidduch opportunities that previously would never have been available.

    Just yesterday i was told about two engagments – 26 year old girls to 24 year old boys. B”H such shidduchim are becoming more and more commonplace.

    As and aside, the model of apprecitating and compensating people for setting up girls who did not just enter the shiddcuh scene, has been a massive succes and is presently active in 4 communites. In September imy”h 3 more large communites will be adopting the model.

    #908915

    Pac-Man
    Member

    (a Rov might, though)

    No Rov might allow her to marry someone who doesn’t keep taharas hamishpacha.

    #908916

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    cleverjewishpun: Thanks.

    P.S. what is with the @gavra thing (not just you). Shouldn’t it be Gavra@?

    #908917

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    No Rov might allow her to marry someone who doesn’t keep taharas hamishpacha.

    Correct. That is why there are levels.

    #908918

    @gavra, the @ symbol is a may for you to know that I’m refering to your post/comments

    This issue hits very close to home for me as I just turned 28 2 days ago and having been married and divorced already, I know exactly what I need in a wife now..and a girl fresh from seminary who wants me to learn all day is not at the top of my list.

    I would not be suprised to see enrollments in overprice/subpar religious schools drop tremendously.

    #908919

    shlishi
    Member

    So long as there are any older single boys out there, any individual older girl certainly has opportunities to get married.

    AZ: With that attitude, you are saying it really isn’t a problem for any girl at all, as long as there is at least still one older single boy out there. Only after the last boy runs out (er, gets married) does the problem start.

    #908920

    Health
    Participant

    To everyone:

    “So perhaps he can enlighten us as to what to do about the girls who will never be able to get married since the current generation no longer has enough bachelors for them all.”

    I so disagree. I don’t know if e/o out there can get married, but most of them who won’t have that possibility. I posted on the Rus thread, if girls would start considering divorced guys, 40 & 50 year olds, the prospect for marriage would be greatly increased. But it’s taboo. Aizeh Hachachom Horoyeh Ess Hanoyled. Wake up girls in your late 20’s and 30’s, if you don’t widen your considerations, you might not ever get married and that means -No kids (in our circles)!

    #908921

    gregaaron
    Member

    @gavra:

    I was referring to your, um, “unique” method of dealing with the shidduch situation.

    #908922

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    This issue hits very close to home for me as I just turned 28 2 days ago and having been married and divorced already

    I’m sorry to hear that, even if it was for the best.

    #908923

    Health
    Participant

    To the single girls/women:

    “@ pacman: where is the emunah in your first post?”

    “Maybe you should just stop following the Torah, because you are missing the most important point. Emuna and Bitachon. There are enough singles around for every person to get married.”

    Emunah & Bitachon is always tied up with Hishtadlus. There probably are enough single men for almost everybody to get married. But some of these men are divorced, some are older, etc.

    Are you broadening your horizons to include these in your dates?

    #908924

    @gavra, it happened 3 years ago, but it was funny to me that 3 months after I had shadchanim calling me up. It was like they were saying “oh time to get over it and on to the next one”

    I did a pretty good job of destroying my reputation so the phone has been quiet.

    I dont see myself ever going that route as no one is really honest at all through that process.

    #908925

    oomis
    Participant

    Almost sounds like Pac-man is AZ.

    #908927

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I dont see myself ever going that route as no one is really honest at all through that process.

    We had another poster here this week who said the exact same thing somewhere in this thread.

    Many attempts were made for the Kallah. How would you proceed?

    gregaaron@: which one? The endgame, or the suggestion?

    #908928

    Health
    Participant

    OOmis – Maybe Pacman and AZ have MPD. In other words, same guy, but multiple personalities!

    #908929

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Well Moderator 80 said AZ is Joseph.

    Transitive property of equality. If A=B, and B=C, then A=C!

    If Pac-man=Joseph, and AZ=Joseph, then Pac-man=AZ!

    Q.E.D.!

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