November 27, 2011 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #600845For_realParticipant
Lovely. Really great. This is what it’s come down to. The NY Post writing an article on abuse in the Orthodox Jewish Community in NY for everyone to see. This is the headline:
I am so comletely embarrassed by this. The most embarrassing part is that it is completely true. Handle this with kid-gloves and try to cover up. What a tremendous Chilul Hashem!November 27, 2011 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #832347
This story is a follow up to the story in the Forward who actually go the information from the DA’s office. Please read the article in the Forward for more detailed information.November 27, 2011 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #832348TheGoqParticipant
I read the article and yes it certainly is a Chillul Hashem but its important the victims get justice and that these CRIMESNovember 27, 2011 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #832349TheGoqParticipant
sorry got cut off
CRIMES be reported immediately to the police lets protect the victims and not the predators.November 27, 2011 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #832350
I agree with OP, it is terribel (ok, terrible). But how about thinking about it in a positive light: how did it get to be new-worthy? Meaning, the world knows to expect more and higher standards from a normal God – fearing Torah Jew.November 27, 2011 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #832351artchillParticipant
Crime is crime. The cover up is the Chillul Hashem.
Instead of encouraging shul and yeshiva rebbeim/principals to make the perpetrators run for their lives, they attack the frum blogs and publications for exposing the cover-ups. Wait until the NY Post/Forward etc. get a hold of the YouTube video of the Agudah convention Thursday night speech. The Chillul Hashem will be astounding.
Fighting a symptom (blogs) but ignoring the disease (abuse and the cover-ups) won’t get very far.
The most honest comment was made by Srully Lefkowitz about the harm caused by the frum blogs being read in Washington.November 27, 2011 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #832352NYBDMember
ZeesKite: new-worthy? Midah k’neged midah…November 27, 2011 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #832353farrockgrandmaParticipant
Yes, the number is astounding. But I suspect that that is one more thing we have in common with the Catholic Church – we are seeing cases reported now that took place over a long time, ten to twenty years.November 27, 2011 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #832354
The Crime is the abuse, and more so the abuse that has been happening for so many decades. So many children needlessly being led like sheep to the slaughter because of the convoluted notion that the honor of the molester is more important than the lives of the children. Enough is enough!! As parents and grandparents, as victims and survivors WE have to speak out and not follow blindly as was done in the past and keep feeding our innocent neshomas to these monsters and give kovod to their protectors.
On THIS issue we have to stand firm and strong and say AD KAN and no more. Absolutely NOT!!! WE have to be very clear “This situation is unacceptable! The way it has been handled in the past is unacceptable! AND it stops here and now!” Whether the molester, predator, pedophile or however you want to label or describe him is a laymen, teacher, or choshov Rav, they all boil down to one category “dangerous and detrimental to our innocent children” and they all fall into another similar category “they are all criminals and belong in jail”. There are no ifs, ands or buts.
We can’t look at a molester as a “chashuv person” because anyone who can forget that Hashem is watching him, and Hashem knows what he is doing while he is molesting a child, is not choshuv in Hashem’s eyes and cannot be considered “choshuv” or respectable in our eyes either.November 27, 2011 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #832355
Anyone who read this article in Forward should also mention about false allegations and people being paid off to testify falsely and police encouraging such things.November 27, 2011 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #832356
You’re so right!! <<Blush Green>> Ashamti…November 27, 2011 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #832357moi aussiMember
Aries, WOW, your comment should be plastered on the walls of every beis din, worldwide!!November 27, 2011 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #832358
There is always a margin of error but we have learned after so many years of doing it wrong, that it is better to err on the side of safety for the children, since the margin of error is so much smaller and the danger to the children is so much greater. From statistics we have learned that there is less than 4% false allegations made, and there are no statistics garnered at all from Jewish victims.November 28, 2011 2:22 am at 2:22 am #832359
Why should we err on the side of the children? As long as the person is removed from children why should we risk putting innocent person in jail and ruining his family? Is it fair to his children?
I understand that if there is enough evidence people should go to the police im not against that but make sure to get enough evidence first.
Also, for some reason Jewish community feels it needs to force the person in jail at all costs. There are many cases where the Jewish Community or our activists made a big deal if someone got a plea bargain or low sentence so now the DA makes sure to over judge every case.
It’s pure discrimination but the worst part is that it was brought on by our own activists!November 28, 2011 3:35 am at 3:35 am #832360
“Why should we err on the side of the children? As long as the person is removed from children why should we risk putting innocent person in jail and ruining his family? Is it fair to his children?”
ill try to be as civil as possible.
firstly you obviously have never researched the effect of sexual abuse on children or in fact anyone. google RTS, read up on it, and then come back here and say that with a straight face. you dont understand what its like for someone who has been sexually abused to know that their abuser is walking around free while they feel alone and ashamed and unclean and completely isolated. no. there can be no sympathy for ANYONE who sexually abuses another person. child or adult..which brings me to my next point.
recidivism rates for sex offenders are so high…i really cant understand how anyone could in good conscience advocate covering up such a crime. if you know about a sexual abuse and cover it up and then that person rapes someone else…that rape is on your hands. the fact that this is even a debate disgusts me. i have a whole chapter in my book devoted to this subject and i know people are going to flame me for it but i dont care. i truly cannot understand how someone could advocate for sex offenders to remain free. seriously.November 28, 2011 3:55 am at 3:55 am #832361
Listen, do you know what my response to this article would be?
We Jews are not immune to the social tactics used by some in America, namely false allegations of sexual abuse, especially in the context of divorce.
Just because charges were laid doesn’t mean someone has committed a crime. In many instances of allegations it is manufactured out of revenge by the other parent.
We are not immune, and mental illness knows no boundaries.November 28, 2011 4:18 am at 4:18 am #832362zahavasdadParticipant
The problem isnt the abuse, its the cover upNovember 28, 2011 5:02 am at 5:02 am #832363
Kudos to any paper who makes this issue public. Sorry to say if e/o in the Klal would do and would have done the right thing we wouldn’t have the situation we have now. It’s unfortunate that some people are more scared of public opinion than doing the right thing in front of Hashem. It’s like the difference between a Ganov & a Gazlan.November 28, 2011 5:08 am at 5:08 am #832364
2qwerty -“As long as the person is removed from children”
Yes, this would have solved the problem. But what happenned was they only say this after the victim(s) reports it to the authorities. I’m still waiting for them to remove some of these perps who haven’t yet been reported.November 28, 2011 5:14 am at 5:14 am #832365
ARWSF -“We Jews are not immune to the social tactics used by some in America, namely false allegations of sexual abuse, especially in the context of divorce.
Just because charges were laid doesn’t mean someone has committed a crime. In many instances of allegations it is manufactured out of revenge by the other parent.”
So how much of a percent is these allegations baseless? I highly doubt it’s more than a few %. But let’s say it’s 50% lies, what do you propose to do with all these abusers that have been accused properly?November 28, 2011 5:21 am at 5:21 am #832366☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
The problem isnt the abuse, its the cover up
You probably meant to say that cover ups make the problem worse. I’m sure you agree that abuse is a MAJOR problem.November 28, 2011 5:27 am at 5:27 am #832367
“Just because charges were laid doesn’t mean someone has committed a crime. In many instances of allegations it is manufactured out of revenge by the other parent.”
tell yourself that if it makes you feel better
“We are not immune, and mental illness knows no boundaries.”
sexual abusers arent classified as mentally ill
“The problem isnt the abuse, its the cover up”
well…i know what you meant to say…but you may want to rephraseNovember 28, 2011 6:04 am at 6:04 am #832368
What are you talking about? I also agree that someone who abuses should go to jail but i was talking about someone who is innocent and happens to be accused.
Read the article in Forward and notice that the big papers will not write about false accusations but they all wrote a story when that Rabbi was accused.November 28, 2011 6:06 am at 6:06 am #832369wanderingchanaParticipant
zahavasdad: the problem is the abuse AND the cover-ups.November 28, 2011 10:54 am at 10:54 am #832370akupermaParticipant
One needs to remember that most “Jewish” journalists are highly anti-religious secular (frei, hiloni Jews) who are used to routinely accusing people of sex crimes. This is a common theme among our enemies (note the style of Julius Streicher’s Der Sturmer). Note recent cases of sex accusations that ended up being politically motivated hoaxes (the “satanic” child abuse in Massachusettes, the Duke lacrosse team gang rape).
Obviously if a newspaper prints such stuff, we should refuse to buy it, and should avoid thier advertisers.November 28, 2011 11:33 am at 11:33 am #832371
if i am correct, it was the Fowards who set up Rubashkin that led to this big lie that ended him where he is, unfortunately. May Hashem watch over all of us.November 28, 2011 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #832372Feif UnParticipant
artchill: What speech are you referring to? From Rabbi Schorr on the dangers of the internet?November 28, 2011 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #832373gefenParticipant
zeeskite: not to take away from the seriousness of this thread; but i like your shtuch about the spelling. you did it in a really cute way.
yes i also noticed the “new-worthy” thing – but zeeskite; when nybd commented, you could have said that was also on purpose! duh! 😉November 28, 2011 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #832374
I’m not referring specificallyto this case when I said what I said…I simply find the idea that when a child calls rape we automatically assume that its a fabrication. I’m not gonna go all failed messiah over here…but there are many unreported sex crimes happening each year in our community and people don’t report it because they are told not to. They are told that its wrong to report it…that its wrong to ruin the molestors family…his marriage…his reputation. I seriously doubt that the majority of reported rapes are false and perpetuating the idea that there is something wrong with reporting sexual abuse is like Arab countries droning a rape victim who can’t produce 4 male witnesses to prove her story. It’s retarded. I know two people who were sexually abused as kids one has gotten over it the other…not so much. Neither reported it because they were told it was wrong. Need I say more?November 28, 2011 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #832375
And stop maiing excuses about it like it’s vengful children going after their parents, etc…November 28, 2011 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #832376
Dr. Twerski will confirm that the percentage of false accusations of abuse by victims is very small, under 5%. Yes, we are concerned about false accusations and, yes, an innocent person’s life and reputation can be irreparably damaged but, given the rarity of false accusations and enormous harm that an unreported child molester can do, the hava amina must always be that the victim is telling the truth.November 28, 2011 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #832377
Thank you!November 28, 2011 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #832378
I pray people protest outside the schools where some of these molesters are allowed to continue teaching our children, as they protest religious girls on their way to school (as they do in Israel)…Or as vocal about sexual abuse as they age about Iphones and the internet….November 28, 2011 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #832379
Raphael, I would like to know where Dr. Twerski gets these numbers from. Actually the estimate of false allegations is much higher if you consider papers written on it by Experts in the field. Dr. Twerski is sitting within only within the context of frum families. A small minority of the global picture which still affects frum yidden as well.November 28, 2011 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #832380
Dr. Twerski was, as I stated, refering to accusations made by victims, not accusations in general. It is an unfortunate fact that accusations of child abuse are sometimes made for unsavory reasons such as revenge or extortion or as the “nuclear option” in a divorce proceding. Any such accusations do not have a presumption of truth. But if a child comes to his parent or teacher or doctor or to you, Always Runs etc. and says “Uncle Blank or Plonie’s father, or my rebbi touched me here” , believe him.November 28, 2011 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #832381BTGuyParticipant
Very well said! I could not agree with you more!
I can only add one thing: Upon conviction (and it has to be with certainty), tickets be sold to have 15 seconds with a bamboo cane to be used on the perpetrator as they sit bound and gagged.
In my opinion, secluding these creatures in a cell with three meals and a cot is not quite justice. It’s a preventative measure, yes, but not justice.November 28, 2011 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #832382
and therefore people shouldnt claim it…im not seeing a pointNovember 28, 2011 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #832383
ARWSF – So acc. to you how much is the percent that are actually guilty? 1%,2% -5%? Even IF you would be right -what has anybody from the powers to be proposed about doing to them? I’ll tell you what most of them have been doing and it’s called sweeping it under the carpet!November 28, 2011 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #832384
Mike – You couldn’t have said it better than your last post. E/o has to give a Cheshbon in this world what they have done and what they have Not done.November 28, 2011 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #832385
I never said these hideous crimes do not happen.
I was saying that in terms of allegations and criminal charges we need to be aware that alot of them are false.
However, that being said I must admit as a mother of a new yingle baby, I am a bit scared of sending him off to cheyder as I have heard horrible stories of abuse from rebbayim. I know we have to educate them to not allowing people to touching them, but I am still scared from some stories I have heard.November 28, 2011 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #832386
ARWSF, As I’ve posted above, victims allegations are hardly ever false. The up side, if you will, is that the vast majority of cheder yinglach never have cause for allegations. The attitude to have towards your child’s rebbis and teachers was best expressed by one of our greatest Presidents, “trust but verify”.November 28, 2011 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #832387BowwowParticipant
What difference does it make what the percentage of false accusations are? Even if 99% are false this is such a terrible crime that it must be reported and dealt with. Put yourself in the shoes of the parent whose child was allegedly abused, imagine if this poor child has to through life because his accusation was swept under the rug….November 28, 2011 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #832388
It’s time we stand up for the rights of children…Abuse is no longer our dirty little secret. We need to show our leaders who sweep abuse under the rug that we will not stand for it.
Just like some groups embarrass and humiliate men who don’t give a GET, the same public displays and protest should be done against those convicted molesters who hide and are protected…or even worse still allowed to teach our children…which many have.November 28, 2011 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #832389mogoldParticipant
Please be advised that I know of a family that recently went through a terrible ordeal when a 23 Y/O young man was FALSLEY accused of molesting a young boy.
1) Was Arrested, and sat with the lowest of society for 24 hours
2) Had to post $100,000 bail
3) Retained a lawyer which cost him $75,000
After 8 months of hell, the DA office finally had to concede that it was proven without doubt that this was a blood libel (MONEY….) ,and the DA dismissed the charges.
This young man is ruined for life!! He was arrested without a shred of evidence,
Footnote: at the bail hearing for this young man where the DA requested a $100,000 bail and the judge agreed, there was a case of a person accused of stabbing a person and shooting a person during a burglary attempt, his bail was only $25,000 !!!!!
Also recently an Hispanic who was accused of molesting a young Jewish girl & he confessed to the charges had his bail set @ $2,500 !!! this is not a typo, yes ONLY $2,500
the so called askunim are creating this hysteria in the DA office and innocent people are really getting hurt.
this 5% of falsley accused cases is not based on any facts, just a number taken from thin air.
the reason we dont hear about the large amount of the falsly accused, is because NOBODY wants to go public of being accused as a molester even if proven beyond doubt that he was innocentNovember 28, 2011 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #832390zahavasdadParticipant
Its amazes me people have zero tolerance for people who do not keep their haskafa 100%
HOWEVER these same people seem willing to give abusers leeway and make all sort of excuses for them
Have you ever made an excuse for someone who was Machalel Shabbos?November 28, 2011 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #832391lolkatzMember
If 5% of them are false, then 95% of them are true.November 28, 2011 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #832392apushatayidParticipant
Say what you want about the content of the article. The accompanying photo (a chassidishe man davening at the kosel – or a darn good mock up of the scene) leaves me wondering what the photo has to do with the story and if the author has an overall agenda against the orthodox community in general, and chassidim in particular.November 28, 2011 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #832393
and what would you do if your kid told you he was molested?November 29, 2011 1:29 am at 1:29 am #832394yitayningwutParticipant
Some people are not as religious as others. Some kids go off the derech. Some kids might have never gone off had they never been sexually abused. This is a sad reality.
We like to believe that we do not judge those who aren’t as observant as ourselves, because only God can judge a person for who he/she really is. As the navi says* that when Mashiach comes – “and you will return and discern between the righteous and the wicked.” In our present state we have no way of telling.
Do we impose fines for certain transgressions? Penalties? Sure. But that is no contradiction. We do so in order to keep the order. To stop people from doing bad things, and to demonstrate to others that it isn’t worth it. But we don’t “judge.” We don’t say “you deserve it.” Because we honestly don’t know these things. Between this person and God there may be a completely different accounting than we think.
So let’s not be hypocrites, and let us take this argument to its logical conclusion. Imagine someone is a cold-hearted murderer. It is still not for any human being to decide what this person “deserves.” It is up to us and our court system to mete out a punishment that will teach others about the severity of the crime, and to do what we can to insure he won’t do it again. Because frankly society as a whole is more important than this individual. But to say that the person “deserves” something? Who are we to judge?
Yet in these horrible cases our emotions get in the way, and we do judge. So we’re really just a bunch of hypocrites, aren’t we? When it feels nice and fuzzy inside to love people and not to judge, we preach it. But when it hurts us, oh lets all go and hate these people, take revenge, etc. etc. etc.
Someone who molests a child can be causing the child considerable damage. He needs to be stopped, and lessons need to be taught. Not because “after all the victim has gone through he deserves to know that the molester is rotting away in prison.” I have never heard a comment more antithetical to Torah and mussar. Feel bad for the victims and give them your hearts; crack down on the perpetrators and stop this terrible thing from occurring, but don’t let self-righteous presumptions skew your entire hashkafas hachayim.
*Credit to Popa for pointing this out on a previous thread.November 29, 2011 2:31 am at 2:31 am #832396slave-to-g-dParticipant
I heard that there was a closed-door meeting at the Agudah convention for rabbonim, and that the general consensus leaned strongly towards going to the police after a minimal investigation of the basic facts. The people who cover-up abuse are NOT following daas torah.
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