November 30, 2011 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #832450
im not sure if this is quite the just world hypothesis or a spin on it…but a lot of people prefer to believe that evil doesnt exist beause they find it inconceivable (for those of you who have studied the subject…lets leave out the theological component) but thats a lot of what it is. “we’re frum jews…we couldnt possibly do this” well why not…?November 30, 2011 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #832451
little I know – I soo agree with you.
If any of you ever heard an abuse victim tell over their story as a kid to an adult, actually heard the spoken words they used, you may have just a bit more understanding of why it is so difficult to know what really happened and what to do about it. Kids don’t just walk up to their parents and say, “Hey, you will never believe where I just spent the last hour”. If only it were so clear and easy to sift through. I think there are alot of people responsible for action not taken on both the victim and authority side. Lots of negligence due to ignorance, not malice. In my experiences over the years it isn’t about saying it just didn’t happen.
I can’t be more specific but I hope this made sense.November 30, 2011 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #832452
i take that back…i made the wrong point with the wrong source…November 30, 2011 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #832453
In the off chance my posts aren’t still being deleted, I’d like to say to Middlepath that I am so sorry for what you’ve been through and I really respect where you are now in spite of it.
B”H I am not a victim of sexual abuse cv”s, but this just may be an argument for female moderators. I think someone has to be either a victim or a mother to really feel the agony they feel. It stays with them the rest of their lives. It destroys their ability to trust authority figures and seriously compromises their ability to have functional relationships with family, friends, and a potential spouse (esp. when the victim has received no treatment and/or it’s been swept under the rug “for the sake of shidduchim”).
Our precious kinderlach go off the derech for lesser reasons than this. Comparing frum offender rates to the general population doesn’t work because there are so few of us to begin with. One is too many!!November 30, 2011 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #832454
All of the considerations you mention are valid and important ones. The point is though that the rabbanim are not blind or deaf and they are taking in the same information that you are. Therefore, if you concede that the rabbanim care, are honest, are pretty intelligent, and know Halacha, then you will not vilify them this way.
A couple of points:
Rabbonim do NOT want to speak to victims. They do NOT want to hear their stories. They do not want to dirty their hands, or desensitize their delicate ears with the harshness and filth of the truth these victims carry.
And by the way, MY Rav said to go to the police.
Then by all means do so. But did your rav say it was ok to bad-mouth other rabbanim?
Very well said.November 30, 2011 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #832455
Syag Lchochma, most kids don’t just open up to their parents. Parents and teachers have to see the changes in the kids and notice that there is something wrong. It takes a while before the adults in their lives notice and make the effort to investigate why the change has taken place and get the child to speak to them. That is why it takes a professional who knows how to investigate and question a child to get the truth and NOT a Rabbi who does not know anything about such a delicate investigation.
Furthermore, The little I know, the Agudah nor Rabbonim in general have met with Professionals but NOT victims. There are many, many victims who have written with requests to meet with and speak to, but have never been responded to. And NO I will NOT list the names of the Gedolim they have contacted. And yes I admit that the Agudhah has held meetings on this subject for years, and what has been the outcome of those meetings? What have they implemented after all those years of meetings? Have they implemented any safety regulations for Mikvehs? Have they implemented any safety regulations for schools? Have they implemented any rules regarding what will happen to molesters if they are caught? Have they announced any guidelines for children? What have they come up with after all these years of discussions?
Is there reason for the K’lal to be upset, angry and suspicious. On any other given issue or subject the Agudah has much to say. Even on this subject they have what to say about reporting or not reporting the abusers, and yet they have nothing to say about the abusers themselves or what they will do or what should be done if an abuser is caught or what should be implemented to protect children. All these years of meetings with professionals and our Gedolim can not come up with guidelines to implement in Yeshivas, shuls and mikvaot? All these years of meetings and discussions and our Gedolim can not issue letters and announcements about the preciousness of our children and how parents, neighbors, relatives and mechanchim should never forget that Hashem is watching over these neshomas and see everything that is happening to them. That no one should take for granted they are Hashem’s angels and that anyone who takes advantage of them or destroys their innocence will be severely punished both in this world and in the world to come.
There are ways and means that they can make very strong statements and implement changes that can make a huge difference. So where are they? Why haven’t they? This is why they are being attacked and being accused as they are because of their lack of action.November 30, 2011 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #832456
Furthermore, The little I know, the Agudah nor Rabbonim in general have met with Professionals but NOT victims.
Your information is not accurate. I cannot speak for Agudah (because I have no idea), but I can speak for a lot of rabbanim.
So basically you believe that only women get it; men are all callous, shallow, and frankly couldn’t care less.
…November 30, 2011 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #832457The little I knowParticipant
I am prepared to testify under oath that the Agudah has met with professionals and with victims. I am personally aware of certain victims that the Agudah has not agreed to meet with, and this is because of their agenda having zero to do with educating rabbonim & Agudah, and similarly nothing to do with protecting children. That is why there are debates on radio shows, magazines, and blogs.
Have these people developed programs to implement in schools that teach about child safety and prevention? No. Have any of them authored, published, or disseminated books or articles that serve to prevent abuse? No. They just scream, look to punish, throw accusations, and create public disgrace. There is much to be done, but they are accomplishing nothing besides chilul Hashem. The Agudah (choosing that label for mainstream rabbonim) bears responsibility for much of the past wrongs on this area. But they have come a long way, and do not deserve the schmutz. Aries – they have met with victims, and processed this with the professionals. It is clear why the public is angry – so am I. But the approach to cope with the source of the anger is unfair, ineffective, and terribly misguided.November 30, 2011 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #832458
They molesters are being protected, abuse is swept under the rug if you don’t believe this happens; The I have a great bridge to sell you.November 30, 2011 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #832459
Yita: If you read again, not only will you see that that’s not what I wrote, but that you’re not comprehending what I did write. Unfortunately that seems to be par for the course for my posts on this thread…
Ironically, I quoted a post with one mention of the word “Agudah” in this thread but yet have had all sorts of things about how I supposedly feel about the Agudah attributed to me. What I wrote speaks for itself and I don’t feel the need to rehash it. Well, maybe one thing, but then this post will get deleted as well, LOL.November 30, 2011 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #832460
Yita, please don’t tell me what I believe. The Littile I know, I know many victims who have written and called and have been ignored. No one is a malach not even the authorities at the Agudah so they cannot possibly know what a victim wants to say or what their agenda is, so you are very, very wrong in what you are saying. You are just towing the party line. Yes there are many Rabbonim that have met with victims but not as members or representatives of the Agudah. Rabbi Yosef Blau is the most prominent Rabbinical representative who had not only met with but advocates for victim/survivors. Rabbi Yitzchak Eisenmann from Passaic, New Jersey listens to victims and advocates for them. I don’t know too many more, if you do, you should list them so victims who read this can contact them.
My question is why don’t those with authority implement change? What would happen if those who “order” that one cannot go to the police also order that there must be an attendant in the men’s mikva at all times and that men can’t linger in the mikva as if it is a pool or gathering place. Would there be change? Do you think molesters would know they are being watched?
What would happen if the Agudah would announce that doors to all rooms in a yeshiva must have widows and they cannot be covered up with shades or papers but always must be classrooms must always be visible from the hallways and that all yeshivas must have video monitoring in the hallways, kitchens, basements, storerooms, etc. Do you think molesters would get the message that they are being watched?
What would happen if the Agudah announced that all staff members including Rebbeim and Roshei Yeshivas must be fingerprinted and background checked, do you think molesters would stop moving from one yeshiva to another?
What would happen if some of the Rabbinic molesters were quietly retired a few at a time and were given a shomer to make sure they are never alone in the vicinity of children?
Any and all of such things could have been and should have been implemented over the years that this issue has been brought to the attention of the Agudah. What if anything was implemented?
What kind of financial assistance or fund was set up victims to receive therapy to recover from their trauma? Nothing. Why is the financial stability only of the molesters and their families important?
The Agudah is the largest Religious organization that the frum olam has. They are the only one that that can implement change, they are the only ones that can sway the public, and manage the masses. They are the only group that has the power to do anything and yet the keep us powerless and if we are powerless then our children remain kaporos.
So I can either keep trying to explain this to you because this is what I do, I advocate for children and for victims trying to wipe this evilness out in my lifetime. Or I can fail at my tafkid. If I were a Doctor I would keep trying to teach everyone to stay healthy. If I were a dentist I would keep trying to teach everyone to take care of their teeth, if I were a teacher I would try to teach everyone the value of a good education. You can either learn and do something about it, or you can keep drinking the kool-aid. It is so easy to blame the bloggers who are trying to shake everyone up to effect change. You don’t like they go about forcing change? Then find another way to make change happen, but the status quo is totally unacceptable.November 30, 2011 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #832461lesschumrasParticipant
I guess the problem people have is that to a large extent Gadolim and Daas Torah have been portrayed as all knowing., and we’ve seen the kol kores on trivial stuff
INovember 30, 2011 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #832462littleappleMember
if you do, you should list them so victims who read this can contact them.
Rabbi Moshe Bak Project Innocent Heart, head of Rambam Yeshiva NJDecember 1, 2011 12:11 am at 12:11 am #832463
Where did I tell you what you believe?
And your “fulfilling your tafkid” rhetoric holds no water. What if you were a thief and someone was stopping you from stealing, would you say then too that we are stopping you from fulfilling your tafkid?December 1, 2011 12:13 am at 12:13 am #832464
You said: “…but this just may be an argument for female moderators. I think someone has to be either a victim or a mother to really feel the agony they feel…”
How did I misinterpret you exactly?December 1, 2011 12:17 am at 12:17 am #832465
“What would happen if some of the Rabbinic molesters were quietly retired a few at a time and were given a shomer to make sure they are never alone in the vicinity of children?”
nothing short of prosecution is sufficientDecember 1, 2011 12:34 am at 12:34 am #832466
Aries… Wow. This is what is so frustrating to me – this is the first time I have seen real suggestions of concrete steps that can be taken, that are realistic and implementable.
You are an asset to your profession and to Klal Yisrael. May Hashem allow us all to see the fruit of your efforts.December 1, 2011 12:39 am at 12:39 am #832467
Yita, now you’re just taking jabs at me and Aries for the sake of it. Why not focus on commenting on the suggestions in the rest of Aries’ post?December 1, 2011 1:16 am at 1:16 am #832468
aries – you missed my point.December 1, 2011 1:21 am at 1:21 am #832469
I am not taking jabs at anyone for the sake of it.December 1, 2011 1:25 am at 1:25 am #832470
Even when I agree with you you seem to snap at me. I also advocate for abuse victims and I also know what I am talking about. I may not do things the way you do them but why does that make me any less effective. I think people would love what you have to say if it could be said in a tone that wasn’t so intimidating. Be angry at the cause, that’s fine, but why be mad at the posters who may not live your life, know what you know or see things your way? Give them food for thought instead of getting short and you will get further. I know I have said this before and I should give it up but I feel bad that you feel like you aren’t listened to but don’t realize it MAY be the tone and not the words.December 1, 2011 3:58 am at 3:58 am #832471
And your “fulfilling your tafkid” rhetoric holds no water. What if you were a thief and someone was stopping you from stealing, would you say then too that we are stopping you from fulfilling your tafkid?
That is absolutely ridiculous and makes no sense. Stealing is NOT a tafkid that is an aveirah.
Syag, maybe it is the tone you are reading it and not the tone I am writing it. I am giving information and answering questions. If you are reading it defensively then you will be offended and feel I am being short.
Soleik, I do agree, I am just presenting forms of application that the Agudah could have and should have implemented. And my questions still remains WHY hasn’t any progress been made and why haven’t then implemented neither any safeguards nor any change what-so-ever in all the years that they have been discussing this issue? Furthermore, why are the efforts of those who wish to protect children and make their world a safer and kosher place being attacked and thwarted. This is so ridiculous. If those same molesters were to give these children treif lollipops there would be a whole revolution about the nerve of not being careful about handing out treif candy. But on this issue? silence. Lets compare the damage of a treif lollipop versus child rape or molestation, which causes more damage?December 1, 2011 4:11 am at 4:11 am #8324722qwertyParticipant
I agree with your post and im sure we as a community can and should come up with many more such steps to prevent abuse.December 1, 2011 4:29 am at 4:29 am #832473
apology acceptedDecember 1, 2011 4:48 am at 4:48 am #832474
That is absolutely ridiculous and makes no sense. Stealing is NOT a tafkid that is an aveirah.
And defaming innocent, well-meaning rabbanim who are trying their best isn’t?December 1, 2011 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #832475
Just because someone has long peyos a white flowing beard and the whitest of shirts doesn’t make them a tazdick. There are people who look like this that do horrendous things to children and they are protected….Yes, there are some people doing something about it, but for the most part Molesters are protected, hidden and swept under the rug.December 1, 2011 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #832476mytakeMember
I’m trying to understand something. If it’s true that “for the most part molesters are protected, hidden and swept under the rug”, then how can we really know just how widespread and common this issue is?December 1, 2011 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #832477
Yita, please explain to the readers here just HOW they are doing their best, and what they have done since they have begun discussing this issue years ago!! I am NOT defaming “innocent” well-meaning Rabbonim, I clearly and concisely relaying facts and placing the truth and a valid inquiry at their very responsible feet. Or to put in more clear terms “holding their feet to the fire”.December 1, 2011 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #832478
mytake: because many of us know victims of sexual abuseDecember 1, 2011 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #832479zahavasdadParticipant
Bloggers and the Jewish Week have exposed the issue.
here is what I think should be done.
The MO was actually hit first with an abuse scandal and cover up. Rav Mordechai Willig was involved. 10 years later when it was exposed Rav Willig ADMITTED he made a mistake and when another incident came up to the RCA involving a well known name, They investigated the incident with an organization that investigates clerical abuse who found the allegations likely true.
The abuser when to the charedim who declared the RCA beth din null and void, But in the end the Rabbi was forced to resign. Rav Willig did NOT back down the second time and has take a zero-tolerance stand on the issue.December 1, 2011 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #832480
mytake, really we can’t. We can only realize that Jews are as human as anyone else and what happens in the outside world happens in our world as well. We are NOT immune. What happens in the Catholic Church has happened among us the same way. The same way the Church, lehavdil, protected their priests and the respect of their religion, so too did our Religious leaders protect their own and the respect of our Religion. There is no monopoly on sickness or evil. However, when it is well known that a certain group can get away with something without consequences or repercussions it becomes a free for all. It becomes a more of a temptation because there is nothing holding one back from giving in to the yetzer horah. They know they have protection, they know they can get away with it, so when the taivah strikes they can easiy wihtout inhabition give in to it. The first time they do, it might be difficult, but when they don’t get caught or they are protected, the second time is easier, and so on.December 1, 2011 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #832481
How about an entire community having speakers/workshops on how to prevent abuse,spot abuse and abusers, how to identify the signs of abuse in children and how to proceed from there given in every frum school in the community and made mandatory for the parents to attend?December 1, 2011 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #832482apushatayidParticipant
Rav Noach Isaac Oelbaum of Kew Gardens Hills, NY.December 1, 2011 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #832483ZeesKiteParticipant
Did you ever try speaking or contacting them instead of ranting to us. We all know about it. We’ve been made aware of it anytime this issue hits your radar screen. Over and over. We ALL know how bad it is. We ALL know how you feel about some people. Is blogging HERE going to “hold their fire to the feet”? If you feel that is your tafkid, why waste your time with nincompoops as me, instead of “Dialing Direct”?December 1, 2011 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #832484
I’m trying to understand something. If it’s true that “for the most part molesters are protected, hidden and swept under the rug”, then how can we really know just how widespread and common this issue is?
Becasue brave victims have stepped forward and told their stories…and more and more victims are doing the same…They also state that those who molested them are still in a teaching position..
EDITEDDecember 1, 2011 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #832486
Syag Lchochma, I agree! How many of the posters on this thread do you think would attend? I have gone to as many as I was logistically able to attend. And I also helped in giving tips and info for public distribution.December 1, 2011 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #832487
Truth is, I do not know exactly what they are doing. But I do know this. The way we came to this discussion in the first place was by you making a general accusation toward a certain institution, which happens to not be a political institution. That accusation blames a whole slew of chashuve rabbanim for covering up a cerain case. I know many of the rabbanim involved in that particular institution very well. And I am certain, knowing them personally, that they would not simply cover up for a dangerous person like this. Therefore I am also certain that they have a cheshbon in what they do. That is called trust. I do not trust that they don’t make mistakes, but I trust that they act upon their consciences and they do what they believe is right. And if I would only trust when things make sense then I would not trust at all.
I acknowledge that there are bad apples. But I think it is a real mistake to think that they are even a significant minority.
And here’s some food for thought: You have no statistics on cases that were handled properly, to really claim that most aren’t.
Personally I have a rebbi who is up nights on the phone with victims, organizations, phychologists, rabbis, etc. every single day. I uses to learn with him b’chavrusa once a week at night and we barely got to learn because he kept going to the next room to take calls. I have another rebbi who is the same way. There was a time when I had zero respect for rabbanim. It took me time but I slowly realized that the morons were exceptions to the rule, and proportionally there were far more morons bashing rabbis than there were morons who were rabbis.
Again, I do not know exactly what changes or fences they are implementing. But I have enough trust not to vilify them.December 1, 2011 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #832488
I think a lot of posters would attend because it is informative and not political This is the second year that our city is doing this. You can pick the date/school location/speaker that is most appealing to you but you are told EACH parent MUST attend at least one. I didn’t hear of anyone refusing or protesting the project. Can we try pushing this on some other cities?
Maybe individual groups of parents would be willing to insist that their school does a presentation, if the community heads don’t seem able to make it happen. It isn’t complicated, the speakers are out there and disseminating the information is the first step. Even a school with the problem wouldn’t dare to refuse a group of parents insisting on a speaker of this kind? Any takers?December 1, 2011 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #832489HealthParticipant
MOD -“I’d like to see one of you clowns trying to decide whether to go to the police and perhaps destroy an innocent rebbi and his family since nobody will ever believe he is innocent even if there is no evidence, versus maybe allowing him to molest other kids.”
There is definitely not an easy solution to this question, but why does it have to be either or?
What happens when a police officer is accused of something? I’ll tell you the first thing they do is put him on Desk Duty. This is until an investigation takes place. It’s not a presumption of guilt or innocence! After an investigation -if he’s innocent -he is reinstated, if not, he is prosecuted.
If we really care about protecting our kids -the same thing should be done in Yeshivos. If s/o is accused -he is taken away from any contact with kids and given another job. If he is found to have “Reglayim L’dovor” he is prosecuted, if not -he is reinstated. And don’t tell me we can’t sometimes figure it out -one way or another. Because even if we don’t have the answer -we can keep him in the desk job.
Most people who are Frum that even if they find out about the accusations will not destroy the person. How do I know this? Because even Perps who have been accused and are presumed Guilty & are still in their current positions – there isn’t any outcry or destruction of the person’s family.
Why? Because e/o is in denial!
So IMHO – I think the leaders who are supposedly trying to deal with these issues are too Nogieah B’dovor. They are too much intertwined with Yeshivos. What is the answer? How come they won’t do my simple suggestion? Perhaps we have to make a panel of Rabbonim who have No Negious to any Yeshiva whatsoever?!?!December 1, 2011 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #832490littleappleMember
I would like to make the point that more video surveillance is not just for the protection of the children but can vindicate the falsely accused as well it seems to me this is a win win idea, and I do not currently own or have investments in any video companies- yuk yuk, just to lighten up the thread for a minute.December 2, 2011 1:37 am at 1:37 am #832491
Health you make an excellent point of “nogeah b’davar” and Yita, I was avoiding saying this but you push me too far. The molester that I mentioned in another thread about a certain yeshiva sits on one of the Vaad’s in the Agudah with the other Rabbonim and yes they are all covering for him. His books are published by Artscroll and still being distributed to Judaica stores and are available on the shelves. Nothing has changed since they all found out about him. He is has 100% protection. The Agudah is 100% complicant and Nogeah B’davar.
Yita, you want to show me how much you know, well you have pushed me to show you how much I know. I wasn’t going to disclose this, but you wanted to know everything that I do. You wanted me to verify my information and go head to head with me, you wanted to show me how sure you are, well so am I. The Rav that molested my friend is a big chaver and a member in good standing of the Agudah and sits on one of their Vaad Panels. He never lost one ounce of Kovod and it was never considered to remove him from the Vaad. He has destroyed countless numbers of bochurim. Please tell me in your opinion does he deserve the kovod he is getting? Does he deserve the protection he is getting? My friend had a private meeting with him and his sons who came to beg him not to out him. He has proof of this meeting which I can’t disclose without his permission, but should he choose to make it public it would blow the top off this issue, especially in that particular yeshiva and town, not to mention the Agudah.
Do you get it now, they drove 5 hours to have this meeting with my friend to beg him not to say anything. They didn’t come to beg for mechilah and apologize for all the pain and agony he caused, they came to beg him to keep quiet. That is the nature of the villain.
It is very difficult to decide what to say and what not to say. I am NOT the victim and it is the victim who has the right to OUT the abuser. But all those who self-rightesously believe that advocates are low-lifes who just want to bash rabbonim and refuse to undertand how painful it is to no longer believe in and trust the Rabbonim and the most important orthodox organization that you relied on all your life. What does it feel like to cut off your right arm? Do you know? What does it feel like to remove something in your life that you depended on? Can you stop using your car? Can you stop having running water in your kitchen? Can you stop having heat in your home? Can you give up your bed and sleep on the floor? Do you know how hard it was to have the rug pulled out from under our feet? Do you think this is easy for us? Do you think this is fun? Do you think I like saying these things? Where are the Tzadikim that were MY mentors and the Gedolim of my generation? Who can I trust, who can I turn to? I used to speak to one Rav almost daily because he advocated for kids and victims then he told me about the Agudah Rabbonim and he told me that when push comes to shove he has to stand with the Agudah in public and I had to walk away from him. How do you think that made me feel? After a few years he has changed his mind and now he gives lectures all over telling everyone to go to the police.December 2, 2011 2:10 am at 2:10 am #832492zahavasdadParticipant
I am sick to my stomachDecember 2, 2011 2:23 am at 2:23 am #832493
So how am I supposed to make sure I don’t have his books? Why don’t I know his name? Just because the peers wont out him, why aren’t the lay people? I don’t understand why the victims remain quiet from begging. What do they have to lose by saying no? It can’t be that they feel bad, what are they being threatened with? I don’t get it? The people I deal with are not those who’s abusers are being protected, they are Rabbis who lost their jobs, fathers, brothers, friends fathers – you get the picture. What makes a person give in to that pressure knowing how much he is suffering?December 2, 2011 2:25 am at 2:25 am #832494
Aries, I believe every word you say. I know abuse happens and the covet ups continue…December 2, 2011 2:52 am at 2:52 am #832495
I am terribly sorry about the pain your friend has been going through.
You however ought to consider two things.
1) For me, an outsider (ostensibly, at least from your perspective), I hear you saying the rabbis are all a bunch of lowlifes. So basically it’s one or two people against a whole group of rabbis, many of whom I know and trust that they are most definitely not lowlifes. So why in the world would I not take their side?
2) How many of these rabbanim who are supposedly covering for this molester do you know personally? Any? Yet you cast accusations on all of them like you know. Face it, as horrible as the crime perpetrated on your friend was, you only know what his side. And even he does not know the rabbanim’s side. So who are you to cast aspersions about them? You can have an opinion about how to deal with the situation but to denigrate and vilify these rabbanim this way? Did you even ask them and give them a chance? Do you have no respect for them at all?December 2, 2011 3:34 am at 3:34 am #832496HealthParticipant
yitayningwut -I’m not going to just bash Rabbonim -some are good and some aren’t. But you said you are close to a few -maybe mention my idea, if they are truly pro-protection of kids they will grab it up because I see no damage to anyone (in reality, not theory) by implementing my plan in Yeshivos. They do want to protect kids -don’t they?December 2, 2011 4:27 am at 4:27 am #832497
I am not in constant contact with them now. I was a year or two ago but now its just occasional. I will definitely broach this subject next time I have the opportunity, which hopefully will be in just a few weeks. I agree with this approach, coming up with suggestions and presenting them to the rabbanim, even arguing it out with them, just not bashing them.
(I do have a rav that I am in constant contact with now but he does not have the power to change policies.)December 2, 2011 4:30 am at 4:30 am #8324982qwertyParticipant
Health, great idea. I also mentioned it before i just didn’t explain it as well as you did.December 2, 2011 4:59 am at 4:59 am #832499
zahavasdad, So am I, and that is why I got involved.
Mike, thanks. You believe it because b”h you are using the common sense Hashem gave you, and you have a heart and soul that feels another’s pain instead of being blindly lead by peer pressure and propaganda.
Health, I am not trying to Bash Rabbonim either, I am speaking the truth and trying to effect change. Why is it that threads are started about women who wear this and that, and girls who do this and that, and any other topic people don’t approve of, but if Rabbonim do something wrong, we can’t talk about it, we are “BASHING” Rabbonim if we speak the truth.
Yita, 1) again you assume too much and you are wrong. I never said that the group of Rabbonim are lowlifes, these are words YOU are using and trying to credit to me. I never said that, nor am I Rabbi BASHING, I am saying that they failed in this issue, and failed badly. I am speaking the truth and brining it to your and everyone else’s attention so people stop accepting it as OK, it is absolutely NOT OK.
2) Again you are living in a dream world and making assumptions that YOU can live with. The one question I will answer is one that I have already answered, no I can’t have respect for them until they right this wrong. Do you really want me to list and discuss each member of the Organization and who knows what and who did what according to my information? Should I list who was emailed and who was informed and with whom discussions were held with?
BTW, I am friends with the Novominsk’s daughter, my family members are very close to the Novominsk and are big Agudaniks, I was close to RYH and he still communicates with me, I tried many times to communicate with Zwiebel but he ignored me and refused to answer, we are friendly with Rabbi Gertzulen, my friend has spoken many times to Rabbi Kaminetzky, The bottom line is they are Nogeiah b’davar and they have to protect their own bottom line. They have to protect themselves from law suits and they can’t admit to anything.
Why are you trying to goad me into revealing more and more? As far as knowing people’s sides, the Agudhah’s side is clear, they are keeping quiet, they are saying NOT to go to the police because they have their own agenda. That is clear. The other side is the side of not just my friend but all the other victims as well. My friend, and Joel Engelman who’s molester is still teaching in Satmar yeshiva in wiliamsburg, and another victim who was hit with a double whammy since he was a victim of Kolko and then was sent for therapy to “Monstrowitz” by Ohel, or my friend who was a victim of “Monstrowitz” back in Chicago. What about the young man I met who pretends to be a goy because he was molested in the mikveh in Williamsburg and doesn’t want any part of his past life as a chasiddish Jew, his molester is in middle of trials now and he had the opportunity when he went to support another victim in Brooklyn court to face him. What about my chasidishe friend who was molested by his Rebbe as a kid, but no one believed him. Not his other Rebbeim, not the principal, not his parents. He still has difficulty today in his marriage and he is desperate that this will not happen to his children. His molester still walks the streets happy and proud that he never got caught. This past year he came face to face with him and his rage overtook him. He pounced him and beat the ” ” out of him. I asked if he felt better after that and he said “No, it made me feel like the animal that he is”. Should I go on? Or should I remind you that there are victims right here in the CR who have already mentioned that they were molested and how difficult it has been for them to deal with. Read the book HUSH then ask Judy Brown how many victims have contacted her and how many stories she knows. Call Rabbi Yanky Horowitz and ask him how many stories he knows and how many victims have come to ask him if they should go to the police.
Ask R’ Matisyahu Solomon what is going on in Lakewood and how he hushed it up. Ask Rivka Finkelstein how it came about that her house burned down on Pesach after a notice was spread about her dead son’s molestation. Speak to David Fromowitz who was the first to come forward about Kolko, I did. I went to private conferences on this issue. I was surrounded by victim/survivors and listened to their stories. Did you? They range from chasidishe to totally secular OTD. Male and female, young and old. Each with their own story whether their abuser was a family member or a mechanech. Each one carries the pain and trauma within. Some dealt with it better, some worse. Some were family members of victims who took their own lives or overdosed because of the pain.
How much more do you want from me? Why don’t you ask your friends, the Rabbis you know and trust, ask them why nothing has been done, why nothing has been changed, why nothing has been implemented after all these years, then come back to us and tell us what they said. Do you think this is easy for me????? Do you think this is a game of one-upmanship? Its NOT. It is your choice to believe what you want and to believe in whom you choose to believe in. I have said way more than I had intended to say and that is because of you. I hope you are proud of yourself.
S’yag as far as making sure you don’t have his books, its a matter of putting two and two together. Go back to the other thread to find out which yeshiva we were talking about and then ask the store if they have books written by a Rebbe of that yeshiva who is also on the Vaad of the Agudah and then figure it out. Although he still lives there he has been retired from teaching.December 2, 2011 6:21 am at 6:21 am #832500
Yita, I don’t understand how you can read Aries’ last post and still come back with the same tired complaints. Face it, you don’t know the whole story, I don’t know the whole story and we don’t have any right to know what Aries knows. What she posted is nauseating enough. I wouldn’t blame her for ignoring you from here on out.
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