December 2, 2011 6:34 am at 6:34 am #832501
Aries – I know some perps too, even though noone in my family was ever a victim. There are bad things that go on amongst us and I’m not even going to mention things I know for a variety of reasons. I wish I could say molestation was the worse. All I can say is one day everyone will have to answer for what they did down here and for what they didn’t do.December 2, 2011 6:45 am at 6:45 am #832502
I know these stories and I am intimately familiar with some of them. You don’t have to reveal them to me. It’s not the point. And I get that you have a disagreement with the rabbanim. It’s your tone which implies they – as a collective group – don’t care and are not trying hard enough. That is a baseless and unfair accusation.December 2, 2011 7:43 am at 7:43 am #832504MDGParticipant
Yita wrote: “It’s your tone which implies they – as a collective group – don’t care and are not trying hard enough. That is a baseless and unfair accusation. “
If, as aries wrote, the Agudah is covering up – and even respecting – a molester, then that is certainly not a baseless accusation. The collective group is clearly not trying hard enough.December 2, 2011 8:20 am at 8:20 am #832505
Aries -“Ask Rivka Finkelstein how it came about that her house burned down on Pesach after a notice was spread about her dead son’s molestation.”
First of all, her house wasn’t burnt down entirely, just a small part, but how come she hasn’t come back? Also, she or s/o spread a rumor that the Frum mafia burnt it down, because they didn’t like what she was saying, which doesn’t appear to have any truth to it. It seems that it was the molester himself. Which brings us to another question, why didn’t she prosecute the guy when her son was alive? She only started going to the police after his death -(This is my assumption because they never arrested anybody for the original crime [or for the arson neither] -had he gave testimony to a grand jury or even if they video taped him -they probably would have gone forward with a trial even though he died.)December 2, 2011 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #832507wanderingchanaParticipant
Yita, when I typed my last post I hadn’t read what was posted right before me. How much more do you need, graphic descriptions of what happened just to make sure it was “bad enough”? How about a boy wondering if he should make a brocha before being forced to do something? Is that disgusting enough for you? Do you have a neshama that is capable of rachmanus??December 2, 2011 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #832509zahavasdadParticipant
Its not ALL Rabbanim who are covering this up. Rav Mordechai Willig and Rav Oelbaum are not are are trying to clean up the system
BUT there ARE Rabbanim who ARE covering it up and they are not trying.
If a Rav knowingly let someone sell traif food under his hasghcha, would you defend them as much.December 2, 2011 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #832510
Health, the truth about what happened to Finkelstein didn’t really come out till after he died and his friends posted some of his writing from his journal on facebook. If I remember correctly his molester was the son of a very prominent and choshuv person in the community and he was silenced and was told NOT to pursue it. After his death, notices were given out throughout the community about Finkelstein and how and why he died before Pesach and hence the fire. The Police Chief told Mrs. Finkelstein if she were smart she would let it go and NOT pursue it.
Health, this is what I remember, I was emailing with her at the time. I can look it up or ask my friend for more details if you want me to. At this point in time, Mrs. Finkelstein has joined the group of Advocates for vicitms.
Wanderingchana, you are absolutely right and I am going to take your advice.December 2, 2011 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #832512littleappleMember
aries and others: no reaction to my point above about more video surveillance cams?
Also: Try not to give up on the debate and continue to respect each other despite the heatedness of the opinions as there may be others like myself who are familiar with what goes on regarding this issue outside the frum olam and take inspiration from the way this process is going. Hashem should bless you all with harchavas hadas v’kul tuv.December 2, 2011 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #832513
“How about a boy wondering if he should make a brocha before being forced to do something?”
i actually just had a minor panic attack in my office after reading thatDecember 2, 2011 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #832514mytakeMember
I feel sick. And angry. If everything that aries said is true, I wanna do something about it so so badly. And I don’t know what.
I wish I knew for sure what the deal is with all the “covering up”. I wish I knew WHO the “Rabbanim” who cover these things up are. It makes me sick thinking that their book(s) may be in my house. I wish things were simpler and I can comfortably believe that our “Rabbanim” know what they’re doing and I should trust their judgement in dealing with these monsters. I wish we were living in world where money, power and kavod don’t get in the way of doing what’s right.
If I am ever lucky enough to be in a position where I can help even one victim, or protect even one potential victim, I hope Hashem will give me the strength, courage and clarity to fight like those who could’ve should have.December 2, 2011 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #832515mikehall12382Member
Even if only one child was abused, and it was covered up that to me is a huge problem. The amount of victims and cover ups is insignificant….One is to many…
Being a Jew is to forma relationship with Hashem, too many have forgot this and are trying to forge a relationship with Humans taking everything they say as 100% true, not questioning…And if you voice your opposition in some communities you are seen as a trouble maker, shun and threatened by the community. People are afraid to speak the truth because they are fearful of the repercussions….Intimidation and is a huge factor in the conspiracy of silence…
Ask questions, challenge and follow your heart….there you will find the truth.December 2, 2011 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #832516
point of Shalom – I think we can agree that there is a HUGE reason to be angry, and we NEED to agree that although there are many Rabbaim who are making very bad and dangerous choices, we can NEVER say “all” are doing so. It is the sweeping statements that keep making people defensive and sidetacking them from hearing. Be angry at those who deserve it and pass it around til it stops, but please don’t include any extras in the rants. I know some Rabbis who have come around and deserve not to be lumped in the same sentence.
Also, aries, can you help me understand (because I’ve handled it differently so I really am wanting to know, not arguing) why the families who allow themselves to be silenced, or why the advocates who are silenced are different than the big wigs who close their eyes. I assume I am missing a piece of information and am not making a judgement, but I do not understand the difference. The ones who actually have the experiences and info would be the ones who should be pushing, shouldn’t they? (In my experiences, the ones who didn’t report did so because it was their choice, not blackmail)December 2, 2011 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #832517
“Also, aries, can you help me understand (because I’ve handled it differently so I really am wanting to know, not arguing) why the families who allow themselves to be silenced, or why the advocates who are silenced are different than the big wigs who close their eyes.”
“In my experiences, the ones who didn’t report did so because it was their choice, not blackmail”
the title of my book about social stigma is called blackmail. stigma is social blackmail. dont say anything about your experiences or you will be shunned and ostracized, your children will not be able to find shidduchim, and you will forever remain unemployed. if thats not blackmail…i dont know what is. silence in exchange for a life that is no life at all. i dont like it…but i understand it. and yes…it IS blackmail in every sense of the word.December 2, 2011 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #832518
Mike – you have great points but I have to say that I feel caught in the cross fire. Those who follow blindly and scream for silence are no less aggressive and dramatic with their views than the bloggers and anti’s. I feel like I need a helmet! I want to hear what both sides have to say (even though I know exactly where I stand) and there has to be a way to do it with much passion but less aggression. For instance, sticking to facts, avoiding sweeping statements, validating valid points and exaggeration etc. Don’t really see either side doing that well(Except for Zehavasdad’s and littleapple’s last posts). I believe with my whole heart that with all of these emotional topics (and this is one of many) we could educate more people if we took deep breaths and exercised more listening skills. It is something I work hard to do. Not speaking about you specifically, speaking to myself and anyone willing to listen.December 2, 2011 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #832519
the problem is twofold and each reason is dependent on the other. people dont want to believe that evil exists in this world because evil is a terrible thing to ponder; the idea that someone can murder six million people, or fly planes into buildings, or…rape a child…we dont want to believe it possible. but theres a cognitive dissonance where that is concerned because evil stares us in the face daily and challenges us, daring us to acknowledge and fight it; so what do we do?
so we explain evil away. we say that the victims of the holocaust died because someone spoke in shul. we say that leiby kletzky died because teenagers are being oiver negia, we say that kids and parents are lying when they call rape on a rebbi or a rav or a neighbor. and the, after discrediting the victims of these heinous crimes, we stigmatize it–we say that there is something wrong with the victim, that they either deserved it, or had it coming, or are now unclean and unfit for humanity because they suffered.
and then we throw them out of our communities because this just doesnt happen, “Not In My BackYard.” and we become the very evil from which we flee, constantly looking our shoulders with dread, with fear, with absolute terror, not for the actual evil, but for those who remind us of that evil–the victims of that evil.
and then somthing ironic happens. we run so far from the wrong thing, the thing that is not itself chasing us, that when we finally settle down, secure in our distance from that which we fear, we are actually closer to the very evil we think we have fled. and then it happens to us.December 2, 2011 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #832520AZParticipant
Aries: If you would like to contact me via yeshiva world or even via the shidduch project, I would be glad to work with you to bring real effective change to this terrible situation. (I am admitedlly very very unfamiliar with the specifics and don’t know 1/100th of what you do, but i think i could be of help in bringing about the changes you suggest.)
If I was you I wouldn’t waste my time trying to get Agudah to be at the forefront of this issue but i’m not going to discuss this point in this forum.December 2, 2011 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #832521
I don’t need any descriptions. I have already known for a while.
____ is someone who is not with us any longer partly due to this. I was best friends with someone very close to him.
____ is someone who is now known to be a child molester, prior to that one of his occupations was in a camp where he was extra mean to me and had me kicked out, so when the whole thing came out I made it my duty to find out every nasty story, because I just hated the man.
____ is a massive talmid chacham and I was overjoyed when I started to be part of his circle because I had finally found someone who was really, really unbelievable in learning and also so “normal.” One day I mentioned this to a rebbi I was close with (the one I spoke of before) and he told me to stay away, telling me all sorts of horror stories, saying that he deals today with victims of this person’s victims, and he wishes he could have the guy put in jail and throw away the key but for technical reasons (not political, legal) it’s impossible.
These are just examples of how I am aware of the general situation. I have been personally affected as well but I will not elaborate on that. I still stand by what I said, and graphic descriptions aren’t going to change my opinion. I don’t know if you get it. These stories sicken me and hurt me. Yet I still do not believe that the rabbanim are not doing their job. We all feel the need to scream and blame people when terrible things happen. That does not mean they deserve the blame.December 3, 2011 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #832522moi aussiMember
A prominent Orthodox rabbi and psychologist has been intimidated into quitting as head of a just-formed task force dealing with rabbinic sex abuse of minors, organized by Assemblyman Dov Hikind this week.December 4, 2011 2:29 am at 2:29 am #832523mexipalParticipant
Thank you yitayningwut for your excellent posts. ALSO, to
mikehall12382 and other rabbi bashers out there NOBODY IS DECLARING RABBIS TO BE MALACHIM OR INFALLIBLE. what people are saying is that in general, al pi rov, most rabbanim are warm caring people who truly care about our kids. honestly, after seeing the way rabbis are being bashed constantly in our communities, constantly being micro-scrutinized on every action they take on every issue,etc. do you honestly believe that most rabbis just care about the money or kavod. honestly, how much money and kavod is there. I’m not saying that there is no kavod involved and that rabbonims’ judgements are never clouted by negious but come on. most rabbonim are in their position because they honestly care about HASHEM and the khal. Maybe we should give them the benefit of the doubt that as a whole they know what they;re doing.
I think everyone here can realize that because of the severity and sensitivity of this issue that it should be handled by the right people. for the past 3300 years we as a nation have believed those people to be those carrying the flag of torah. this issue has many serious Halachic issues and like all halachic issues should go to those who spent there lives learning Torah. They know what Hashem wants alot more than the bloggers, baalei batim, askanim, and activists. Unfortunately there are many people who don’t know what bracha to make on their chicken soup but think that they can decide weighty halachic and hashkafic issues better than all the gedolim since Moshe RabbeinuDecember 4, 2011 2:37 am at 2:37 am #832524
mexipal, thank you.December 4, 2011 3:03 am at 3:03 am #832525
mexi…paragraph breaks matterDecember 4, 2011 3:05 am at 3:05 am #832526truthsharerMember
Just the opposite, al pi rov, it is safe to say that the rabbanim have done nothing to help the victims.December 4, 2011 3:56 am at 3:56 am #832527zahavasdadParticipant
I was talking to the Rabbi about this over Shabbos and I said this was the MOST IMPORTANT issue facing the community and the reason I feel this is because this can destroy us more than any other issue because this goes down to the Rabbanut itself.
I also said it was very important for this issue to be transparent and we really must see what is going on. (I wass talking about the closed meeting at the aguda convention)
We can all debate hasgafa and what is the proper way to act and behave but NOBODY will defend an abuser and in the goyish world even people who protect abusers are shunned (Look at the Penn State case, the GREATEST coach in college football Joe Paterno is person non-grata for protecting an abuser)
If people cannot trust rabbis to hand over abusers, how can they trust them for anything and then the whole system breaks down.
The cover up has occured for long enough, Its a shame it has been bloggers and the jewish week to expose them, had the bloggers not existed we would not know about these people and they would contunue their crimes.
I expect rabbis to behave better than Joe Paterno didDecember 4, 2011 4:25 am at 4:25 am #832528frumnotyeshivishParticipant
With such serious issues, in which often there are very legitimate reasons for not publicizing things, and for not taking specific steps that any idiot could think of (if you need examples just look at some posts here), the questions are who do you trust? and who knows better? and the answer is, for me, clearly, without hesitation, first my personal Rav, then the consensus of Rabbonim. Are there problems? sure. Who has the solutions? Bright people, that dedicate their lives to Klal Yisroel, know Halachah, won’t hesitate to do what’s right, and have the capability to PRUDENTLY do what is necessary. Are there exceptions among Rabbonim? sure. Is the world perfect? No. If you want to name the entity that caused everything, I can do that for you – GOD. Do Teshuvah, talk to your Rabbi, stick your nose into something productive, and fewer children will be molested. Guaranteed.December 4, 2011 5:08 am at 5:08 am #832529
Syag, here is part of the problem. If a person, a Rabbi, is protecting someone they know, then that is one specific human being making a choice based on his knowledge – mind, body and soul, to do what he thinks is the right thing to do.
When a group of Rabbonim take upon themselves to protect “many” colleagues who people have come and complained to them about, whether individually or as a group, they are making a “joint” decision based on what they think is best for whatever and however they concluded it should be done. But when the issue keeps growing and the list of people they are protecting keeps growing then the decision they made needs to be reconsidered because the way they handled it obviously wasn’t working.
In addition. When that group of Rabbonim handle that situation that way, it is harmful to the public but still it is manageable depending who went to them with the information. However, when that same group of Rabbonim have unlimited power and authority and they use that to pronounce that THEIR way is the ONLY way and ALL RABBONIM MUST follow their guidelines, then that is a whole other ballgame. Then it blocks any other Rabbi from having another opinion and helping anyone that has the same problem. He is then forced to also protect the guilty.
Take that one step further, when that group of Rabbonim then take it upon themselves to tell Jewish Mandatory Reporters such as an organization like Ohel and their therapists to NOT report to the authorities. THEY are telling ALL these people to break the law and put their parnasah in jeopardy. They are also interfering with justice and the commission of crimes.
Hence the huge problem and the difference of opinions. Where most of us have a problem with the way this issue was handled and is still being handled by the group of Rabbanim and their instructions to the K’lal AND their lack of implementing guidelines and taking actions to prevent this crime from happening and destroying our children, others are just defending their honor and calling us Rabbi Bashers. This attitude of “kill the messenger” is what continues to give them the freedom to continue in this cycle of destruction. The K’lal protects the organization and their Rabbis, they in turn continue to protect the molesters and our kids keep on being the kaporas.
The entire system of learning Torah and Gemora is based on asking questions and getting answers and yet WE as a K’lal do not have the common sense and the where-with-all to ASK questions of our leaders, WE are expected to follow blindly, and gladly comply. Until it came to this issue. When we were forced to open our eyes.
Lets take a look at the Kolko case. Margolis threatened the parents of victims that he would destroy them. That their kids would be kicked out and they would never get into another Yeshiva in Brooklyn. If they didn’t keep quiet they would have to move far away because he would make sure no one believed them. Margolis protected Kolko even though he knew he was putting countless children at risk. Did he watch him? Did he warn the parents, did he even warn Kolko?
This whole story comes out, law suit and all, so he decides to hedge his bets and goes to open another Yeshiva in Lakewood. Did they not hear how he put kids at risk? The community comes out to greet him with open arms and showers him with kovod and can’t wait to enroll their kids in his yeshiva. What is wrong with this picture?
What happened to all the molesters in Lakewood? Where are they now? The Rabbonim took care of them, they handled things very quietly and they made sure that the kids and parents kept quiet too. So where are they now? Where are they living and where are they teaching? Wouldn’t YOU like to know? Me too! I want to make sure they are no where near children, but we will never know. This is how the game is played.
But like Mike said, we are in denial that anyone who calls himself Rabbi can do anything wrong. And we are in denial that anyone that calls themselves Rabbi will lead us down the wrong path. During the Weingarten trial I heard about all these Rabbonim that came to his defense. They didn’t know him from Adam but they were all saying what a Chashuva mentch he was, a Rosh Yeshiva, and so on. So I asked a very logical question. “Does anyone know where he got semicha from?” No one knew. So I then asked, “if he doesn’t have semicha how can he call himself a Rav and then more so a Rosh Yeshiva?” I was then told “you don’t have to be a Rav to open a yeshiva and call yourself the “Rosh”.” I was shocked.
Ladies and gentlemen, this is how blind we are, and this is also how we get fooled and mislead. And this is why we have to ask questions and we have to fight for what’s right. We are losing this war, not a war against Rabbonim. We are losing the war against keeping our children safe and innocent. Our Rabbonim speak of the evils of internet and that is what’s causing our children to go off the derech. They speak of the evils of the computer, the cell phone, and anything else they can think of. But they stay silent about the evils of molestation in the home and in the school, by relatives, by mechanchim, by friends, by strangers but most of all by fellow jews. This is the most dangerous thing to our children and yet they are silent about protecting our children from this evil.
The Ehrliche Yid who follows all the guidelines from the Aguda Rabbonim is still at risk and still puts his children at risk because they are doing nothing to protect his children and grandchildren, nieces and nephews, from this terrible evil. WE are not saying that these Rabbonim are bad people c”v. WE are not saying that they are evil people. WE are saying that they are ignoring this huge sakanah to our children and instead of doing whatever is humanly possible to protect our children they are putting their kochos into protecting the perpetrators, keeping things quiet and silencing and combatting those in the know.
They are NOT only protecting the perpetrators, but it spiraled into a greater issue. They are also protecting their own bottom line and doing whatever they can to avoid lawsuits. They are all nogeah b’davar and if they are found complicent in the cover-up they won’t be covered by insurance should they be sued. The financial loss to the organizations and yeshivas who are involved in harboring the criminals can financially bankrupt them should they be sued and that is the bottom line they are watching.December 4, 2011 6:08 am at 6:08 am #832531frumnotyeshivishParticipant
If Agudah is bankrupted who wins? Either way, are you saying the truth? Who do I believe? What does GOD want? My answer is I still trust the Rabbonim to answer these profoundly religious moral dilemmas. Who else?December 4, 2011 6:11 am at 6:11 am #832532
Aries -My point was -She went to the cops after the fire -why not go after the molester? Acc. to my info -it was the molester who made the fire.
I don’t like that Rabbonim aren’t doing their utmost, but ultimately it’s the family responsibilty. Why hasn’t she tried to prosecute this guy for 1.Molestation, 2. Arson ?December 4, 2011 6:13 am at 6:13 am #832533
aries – Thank you so much for clarifying all that. I think I understand that better. But I still don’t think any of my questions were answered. I still however don’t understand why its okay for the friends and family of the victims to be quiet instead of leaving town. Why would the Ohel people agree not to report? So lose your job! And if you don’t, than you are making that same choice to protect an abuser for whatever personal negi’us you have chosen to do so. I personally am not understanding why that is not protecting an abuser. If the victims were speaking out then the bloggers wouldnt have to. If 50 victims spoke, if 100 victims spoke, threats wouldn’t work.They can’t burn down EVERYONE’s houses.
In my experience it has been the families of the victims protecting THEMSELVES who have done the sweeping. It has been the families who want to pretend it never happened, who choose to sit and cry, insisting their hands are tied, instead of prosecuting.I see them as no different then those Rabbis. Although I don’t doubt a single word of what you have experienced, I am not sure why these families and friends can be excused when I have found over again that they are the ones who are really protecting the molesters. I even said as much to a mom who blamed a rabbi for doing nothing, yet she pretended to her public that it never happened! A Rabbi I know has been insisting a certain person be reported to the police but the victims supporters refuse.
I don’t blame the victims for being silent, but, in my years of experience, it isn’t just the rabbis preventing change. People need to get up and tell their stories and name names. When it isn’t true it will have to be dealt with. But the families and supporters and professionals have to stop giving in and claiming that they have no choice. Everyone has a choice. And if someone chooses to be silent and they feel they have good reason to do so, than they should just know that they are no different than the ones being accused.
Sorry about the tone, this is a very sore point of mine.December 4, 2011 7:01 am at 7:01 am #832534ZeesKiteParticipant
Could we maybe something like stop this ongoing everlasting endless bashing, badmouthing, bashmutztzing Rabonim? Please? I don’t know about you, but the vast majority of us here are Shomer Torah, we’d like to steer clear from Lashon Hara, and other forbidden communications – that’s why we’re here at Torah World. With all your knowledge, experience, “smartness” notwithstanding there is still a Ribono Shel Olam.
There are halachos what may and may not be spoken / written. Not everything you feel is fit for publication. When dealing with Rabonnim (all with one swing) one must be extra cautious. Have you mastered the Chofetz Chaim – cover to cover? Did you ask Halachik authority? Your endless spewing of vitriol against Tzadikim causes a great irreparable damage to viewers. You cause others to doubt and mock Gedolim. To become apikorsim.
You once stated you wish you know Torah so you’d be able to converse… Let me be the first to give you an education.
There was a story (maybe in Talmud/Medrash, I’m no Rabbi) of someone who saw another sin, came before Bais Din (court) and testified. The court dutifully had HIM whipped? Why? Because he was telling Lashon Hara to court without purpose! (since he was only one, they couldn’t believe him to prosecute another) Ask any of the resident Gemorah Technicians to back me up on this. Getting to our point. Are we supposed to take testimony of an annonmous blogger against our Rabbonim??? – Remember – all with one swipe!!
Lashon Hara written on a blog, read by countless people, bears a enormous sin!
I don’t know how they’re letting this go thru: WE against the Rabbonim.. “They ..and anything else they can think of..” WE must stand up against them… Yeah, we’ve heard it before (Korach..Hellenizers.. Tzidokim..Haskala)
As I wrote before, if you really have something to say, deal direct. Don’t come as a cowarding anonymous blogger and rant against our Rabbonim. If you must know, there are a lot of sites known for this type of behavior, why do it on a Torah oriented one?
I generally don’t write like this, when it comes to defending the honor of HaSHem, His Torah and His Gedolim, I must protest. This is true ZeesKite!December 4, 2011 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #832536
Zk – I think aries had already changed her tone very much in her last couple posts as noted by some above.December 4, 2011 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #832538
“I still however don’t understand why its okay for the friends and family of the victims to be quiet instead of leaving town.”
Threats could be very far reaching, into a vast network of family, into a vast area of where the Jewish community lives if they move there, in a vast network of yeshivas they can block ALL those children out of, and the biggest threat of all, when someone calls in the future to ask about shidduchim, they will surely call and get a HUGE negative report on the family.
“Why would the Ohel people agree not to report? So lose your job! ” Yes this is something unbelievable. But it is so intertwined. Ohel gets funding and support through Agudah and therefor they won’t rock the boat. They do what they are told. The employees of Ohel also did what they were instructed to do which was to report to their supervisor and that’s it, not to make decisions on their own. The job market is flooded with Social workers and psychologists. People need to make parnasah and it is not so simple as saying, so they will lose their jobs. People are afraid to lose their jobs, people have obligations and responsibilities to their families.
Syag, you can tell by this thread alone, there are those who have the courage to report and get knocked down. There are those who are encouraged and won’t because they are afraid of what will happen to them. If victims knew they had the support behind them, and the molesters would be stopped more people would. That is the feeling that I get from the community of survivors that I know.December 4, 2011 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #832540
BTW, did anyone listen to Zev Brenner’s Talkline communications show last night? It was on this subject with guests Rabbi Yosef Blau, Mark Meir Appel, Tzvi Gluck and Dr. Asher Lipner.
Rabbi Blau discussed the inyan of “raglayim l’davar” and how important it is to go to the police among other misconceptions. Please listen to the program it is very informative.December 4, 2011 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #832541
aries – thank you so much for your answers. I see we deal with two very different sets of survivors, but have a very common cause. If you don’t mind agreeing to disagree tho, I PERSONALLY don’t see the behavior of the above professionals and friends/family any more excusable than of the Rabbis who THINK (in their own minds) that they also have good reason. I think they are both dead wrong and that you should either condemn both, or excuse both. But I do agree with you that there would be safety in numbers. And I, for one, will continue to do what I can to make change. Thanks again for the straightforward answers.December 4, 2011 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #832542
It’s funny how people are accusing the Rabbonim shlita of somehow not caring enough about children or not being “smart” enough to properly deal with Child Abuse.
You see I think it’s just the opposite. The Gedolei Yisroel who quite literally are makriv themselves to the tzibur and spend day and night helping both individuals and groups of people who they do not even know, care to much.
They care so much about people that they are willing to listen to people trying to convince them to do things that have already proven to be dangerous and literally have destroyed communities.
In all aries’s posts she has neglected to give any real sources or real data.
You see the current “hysteria” over child abuse is not new to the worl.
It is new to the Frum world.
In the wider world it occurred in the late 1980’s its known as the “day care sex abuse hysteria” sound familiar?
Try ggogling it.
Try googling the McMartin Pre school case,
The Kern County Pre-school case.
The Little Rascals Pre School Case.
The Dale Aikiki case.
And countless more.
Virtually all were cases where families were destroyed, innocent people were sent to jail upon the testimony of children with no physical evidence. Convictions were later overturned, but the damage was done.
There are countless more cases you can look them up.December 4, 2011 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #832543
As for saying that only 5% of cases where children bring accustaions are false.
That is simply intrue.
All studies done make clear that in only 5% of cases are children found to be intentionally lying.
That is true, however in a very high percentage of cases that children are found to have been questioned wrong, manipulated or simply misunderstood.
So much so that real studies showing all the numbers have shown that 81% of child abuse accusations cannot be substantiated.
I qoute from familyrights.us
“81%, or 4 out of 5, of all child abuse reports are known to be false. Less than 1 in 5 reports of child abuse are “substantiated” as being true by an administrative decision or court action. There are serious doubts about the validity of a large number of the administrative findings of child abuse and neglect. These doubts center upon the dubious quality of the investigative work undertaken by CPS investigators. There are relatively few figures available regarding the number of “substantiated” findings that are overturned following either administrative or judicial review.
We do not have an epidemic of child abuse in the United States, but we do have an epidemic of false reporting that is harmful to families who are needlessly exposed to the universally inadequate and incompetent efforts of the CPS agencies throughout the country”.
Scary isn’t it?December 4, 2011 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #832544
Another quite scary article is the paer delivered by GB. Melton in 2004 to the International Society for Prevention of Child Abuse and Neglect.
The paper is replet with footnotes documenting everything and Melton skeweres Mandated Reporting Laws as having been well intended from the outset but now being a Policy without Reason.
And MElton repeatedly makes the point the unintended consequences of Mandated Reporting Laws have caused more damage to the children it is supposed to protect then good.
Interestingly Melton makes the point that while The orginal Mandated Reporting Laws were enacted to prevent “battery” the overwhlming amount of abuse that occurs is “neglect”.
Another point made by Melton is that two thirds of all “mandated reporting” cases are unable to be substantiated!
Here is but one paragraph from Meltons report.
“For now, though, it is important to recognize that experience has shown that the assumptions that
guided the enactment of mandated reporting laws were largely erroneous. To be clear, my intention
in drawing attention to these mistakes is not to criticize Kempe or any of the other pioneers in child
protection. Indeed, they are justly venerated for drawing public attention to an important social problem.
It is not reasonable to expect that any of the early advocates on behalf of maltreated children should
have known what professionals have learned from decades of research and clinical experience. Today,
however, leaders in child protection should know better. Nonetheless, in the United States and numerous
other jurisdictions that have copied the US model, policymakers maintain a child protection system that
is now known to lack a grounding in valid empirical assumptions and indeed to have terrible unintended
effects”.December 4, 2011 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #832545
Health, I asked someone who was very close to Rivka Finkelstein at the time this is his reply:
1. It is NOT her responsibility to go after the molester. Why? So she should be run out of town like the family who went after Kolko?
There are others in the community including rabbis and powerful people who know who the molester are and who the arsonist are. This poor woman has suffered more than any of us should ever know. And she has the courage to go to the police and the media about her house. The community who knows that there is a molester in their midst AND an arsonist are doing nothing to support her. Reb Mattisyahu Salomon told her “the rabbis could help figure out who the arsonist is, but are keeping it “hush” for now…..”
2. There is no evidence that the arsonist was the molester. She probably did tell the cops who the molester was but she cannot press charges about her son’s molestation because the victim is not alive to testify. Why does she not publicize the molester? Because the community does not want to know. Its very simple. If anybody with some real power or a group of parents who were concerned had EVER asked her who did it to Shua, and offered her real support and most importantly protection from more arsonists, maybe she would tell them. But in a community that treats victims of abuse according to the cruel practices of Sdom, for her to name her son’s molester would be suicide.
3. She was told by rabbanim not to go to the police about the molestation. She was also given that advice by Lakewood therapists. This was when her son was still alive, and the molester could have been prosecuted. In New Jersey ALL people are mandate reporters, not only professionals. After what happened in Penn State University where two college officials are being prosecuted for failure to report, the therapists in Lakewood who hear of molestation cases on a regular basis, and the rabbis, especially of the beis din, who know of many, many child abuse cases and have reported none, are extremely vulnerable to facing prosecution as soon as their little cover up gets exposed.December 4, 2011 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #832546
article is misspelledDecember 4, 2011 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #832547mexipalParticipant
soliek, so like you to make such a comment
THIS THREAD IS TAKING A REALLY BAD TURN. PLEASE CALL THE POLICE RIGHT AWAY IF YOU SUSPECT YOU HAVE INFORMATION REGARDING PREDATOR OR MOLESTER
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