Articel on NY Post Web-site on religious Jews child abuse

I read the article and yes it certainly is a Chillul Hashem but its important the victims get justice and that these CRIMES

I agree with OP, it is terribel (ok, terrible). But how about thinking about it in a positive light: how did it get to be new-worthy? Meaning, the world knows to expect more and higher standards from a normal God – fearing Torah Jew.

ZeesKite: new-worthy? Midah k’neged midah…

The Crime is the abuse, and more so the abuse that has been happening for so many decades. So many children needlessly being led like sheep to the slaughter because of the convoluted notion that the honor of the molester is more important than the lives of the children. Enough is enough!! As parents and grandparents, as victims and survivors WE have to speak out and not follow blindly as was done in the past and keep feeding our innocent neshomas to these monsters and give kovod to their protectors.

On THIS issue we have to stand firm and strong and say AD KAN and no more. Absolutely NOT!!! WE have to be very clear “This situation is unacceptable! The way it has been handled in the past is unacceptable! AND it stops here and now!” Whether the molester, predator, pedophile or however you want to label or describe him is a laymen, teacher, or choshov Rav, they all boil down to one category “dangerous and detrimental to our innocent children” and they all fall into another similar category “they are all criminals and belong in jail”. There are no ifs, ands or buts.

We can’t look at a molester as a “chashuv person” because anyone who can forget that Hashem is watching him, and Hashem knows what he is doing while he is molesting a child, is not choshuv in Hashem’s eyes and cannot be considered “choshuv” or respectable in our eyes either.

You’re so right!! <<Blush Green>> Ashamti…

There is always a margin of error but we have learned after so many years of doing it wrong, that it is better to err on the side of safety for the children, since the margin of error is so much smaller and the danger to the children is so much greater. From statistics we have learned that there is less than 4% false allegations made, and there are no statistics garnered at all from Jewish victims.

“Why should we err on the side of the children? As long as the person is removed from children why should we risk putting innocent person in jail and ruining his family? Is it fair to his children?”

ill try to be as civil as possible.

firstly you obviously have never researched the effect of sexual abuse on children or in fact anyone. google RTS, read up on it, and then come back here and say that with a straight face. you dont understand what its like for someone who has been sexually abused to know that their abuser is walking around free while they feel alone and ashamed and unclean and completely isolated. no. there can be no sympathy for ANYONE who sexually abuses another person. child or adult..which brings me to my next point.

recidivism rates for sex offenders are so high…i really cant understand how anyone could in good conscience advocate covering up such a crime. if you know about a sexual abuse and cover it up and then that person rapes someone else…that rape is on your hands. the fact that this is even a debate disgusts me. i have a whole chapter in my book devoted to this subject and i know people are going to flame me for it but i dont care. i truly cannot understand how someone could advocate for sex offenders to remain free. seriously.

The problem isnt the abuse, its the cover up

2qwerty -“As long as the person is removed from children”

Yes, this would have solved the problem. But what happenned was they only say this after the victim(s) reports it to the authorities. I’m still waiting for them to remove some of these perps who haven’t yet been reported.

The problem isnt the abuse, its the cover up

You probably meant to say that cover ups make the problem worse. I’m sure you agree that abuse is a MAJOR problem.

soliek,

What are you talking about? I also agree that someone who abuses should go to jail but i was talking about someone who is innocent and happens to be accused.

Read the article in Forward and notice that the big papers will not write about false accusations but they all wrote a story when that Rabbi was accused.

One needs to remember that most “Jewish” journalists are highly anti-religious secular (frei, hiloni Jews) who are used to routinely accusing people of sex crimes. This is a common theme among our enemies (note the style of Julius Streicher’s Der Sturmer). Note recent cases of sex accusations that ended up being politically motivated hoaxes (the “satanic” child abuse in Massachusettes, the Duke lacrosse team gang rape).

Obviously if a newspaper prints such stuff, we should refuse to buy it, and should avoid thier advertisers.

artchill: What speech are you referring to? From Rabbi Schorr on the dangers of the internet?

I’m not referring specificallyto this case when I said what I said…I simply find the idea that when a child calls rape we automatically assume that its a fabrication. I’m not gonna go all failed messiah over here…but there are many unreported sex crimes happening each year in our community and people don’t report it because they are told not to. They are told that its wrong to report it…that its wrong to ruin the molestors family…his marriage…his reputation. I seriously doubt that the majority of reported rapes are false and perpetuating the idea that there is something wrong with reporting sexual abuse is like Arab countries droning a rape victim who can’t produce 4 male witnesses to prove her story. It’s retarded. I know two people who were sexually abused as kids one has gotten over it the other…not so much. Neither reported it because they were told it was wrong. Need I say more?

Dr. Twerski will confirm that the percentage of false accusations of abuse by victims is very small, under 5%. Yes, we are concerned about false accusations and, yes, an innocent person’s life and reputation can be irreparably damaged but, given the rarity of false accusations and enormous harm that an unreported child molester can do, the hava amina must always be that the victim is telling the truth.

I pray people protest outside the schools where some of these molesters are allowed to continue teaching our children, as they protest religious girls on their way to school (as they do in Israel)…Or as vocal about sexual abuse as they age about Iphones and the internet….

Dr. Twerski was, as I stated, refering to accusations made by victims, not accusations in general. It is an unfortunate fact that accusations of child abuse are sometimes made for unsavory reasons such as revenge or extortion or as the “nuclear option” in a divorce proceding. Any such accusations do not have a presumption of truth. But if a child comes to his parent or teacher or doctor or to you, Always Runs etc. and says “Uncle Blank or Plonie’s father, or my rebbi touched me here” , believe him.

and therefore people shouldnt claim it…im not seeing a point

Mike – You couldn’t have said it better than your last post. E/o has to give a Cheshbon in this world what they have done and what they have Not done.

ARWSF, As I’ve posted above, victims allegations are hardly ever false. The up side, if you will, is that the vast majority of cheder yinglach never have cause for allegations. The attitude to have towards your child’s rebbis and teachers was best expressed by one of our greatest Presidents, “trust but verify”.

It’s time we stand up for the rights of children…Abuse is no longer our dirty little secret. We need to show our leaders who sweep abuse under the rug that we will not stand for it.

Just like some groups embarrass and humiliate men who don’t give a GET, the same public displays and protest should be done against those convicted molesters who hide and are protected…or even worse still allowed to teach our children…which many have.

Its amazes me people have zero tolerance for people who do not keep their haskafa 100%

HOWEVER these same people seem willing to give abusers leeway and make all sort of excuses for them

Have you ever made an excuse for someone who was Machalel Shabbos?

Say what you want about the content of the article. The accompanying photo (a chassidishe man davening at the kosel – or a darn good mock up of the scene) leaves me wondering what the photo has to do with the story and if the author has an overall agenda against the orthodox community in general, and chassidim in particular.

Some people are not as religious as others. Some kids go off the derech. Some kids might have never gone off had they never been sexually abused. This is a sad reality.

We like to believe that we do not judge those who aren’t as observant as ourselves, because only God can judge a person for who he/she really is. As the navi says* that when Mashiach comes – “and you will return and discern between the righteous and the wicked.” In our present state we have no way of telling.

Do we impose fines for certain transgressions? Penalties? Sure. But that is no contradiction. We do so in order to keep the order. To stop people from doing bad things, and to demonstrate to others that it isn’t worth it. But we don’t “judge.” We don’t say “you deserve it.” Because we honestly don’t know these things. Between this person and God there may be a completely different accounting than we think.

So let’s not be hypocrites, and let us take this argument to its logical conclusion. Imagine someone is a cold-hearted murderer. It is still not for any human being to decide what this person “deserves.” It is up to us and our court system to mete out a punishment that will teach others about the severity of the crime, and to do what we can to insure he won’t do it again. Because frankly society as a whole is more important than this individual. But to say that the person “deserves” something? Who are we to judge?

Yet in these horrible cases our emotions get in the way, and we do judge. So we’re really just a bunch of hypocrites, aren’t we? When it feels nice and fuzzy inside to love people and not to judge, we preach it. But when it hurts us, oh lets all go and hate these people, take revenge, etc. etc. etc.

Someone who molests a child can be causing the child considerable damage. He needs to be stopped, and lessons need to be taught. Not because “after all the victim has gone through he deserves to know that the molester is rotting away in prison.” I have never heard a comment more antithetical to Torah and mussar. Feel bad for the victims and give them your hearts; crack down on the perpetrators and stop this terrible thing from occurring, but don’t let self-righteous presumptions skew your entire hashkafas hachayim.

*Credit to Popa for pointing this out on a previous thread.