Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel

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  • #1025457

    Kasha
    Member

    Wolf: By that argument, you are positing that “frum” clothing stores could sell miniskirts and sleeveless shirts or any pritzus of their desire. Sorry that does not “cut it.”

    I again stress (a separate point) that when someone sins in regards to tznius, they are not only going to pay for transgressing the law themselves; they are going to be held responsible in the court of courts for the transgressions of thousands of others (passersby) made by her enabling them to see her in that state of undress. Even for that fleeting moment of seeing her, before quickly turning away from her pritzus state. (Of course if anyone looks any longer than the moment to realize her pritzus, it will cost them in court too.)

    #1025458

    apushatayid
    Participant

    What Wolf is saying that in certain contexts, certain clothing is not “untsniusdik”. A woman may not wear something out in the street, but in the privacy of her own home, for her husband (I dont think it is necessary to elaborate) or just for hersel if she is the only one around, she can wear whatever she wants. Is she suddenly not a tzuna? If a woman decides that in the privacy of her own home, she wants to wear a pair of sweatpants (begged ish is not a concern in my hypothetical case) to do the housework, is she not allowed to? what if she decided that its easier to do housework in a tank top?

    #1025459

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf: By that argument, you are positing that “frum” clothing stores could sell miniskirts and sleeveless shirts or any pritzus of their desire. Sorry that does not “cut it.”

    Why not? I wasn’t really discussing miniskirts and sleeveless shirts, but the reasoning still applies.

    My wife is allowed to dress as such in front of me in private. I don’t believe there is anyone who disputes this. That being the case, if she were to wish to dress that way in the privacy of our own home when we’re alone, why shouldn’t she be allowed to purchase said clothing?

    The Wolf

    #1025460

    blinky
    Participant

    I find it interesting that ppl are bashing Jewish stores for selling “pritzus” clothing and thats whats causing the problems. I think its safe to say that majority of shoppers shop in goyish malls where they do not necessarily cater to tzniyus needs. (Not saying that we shouldn’t shop there-we just have to be careful.)

    #1025461

    Kasha
    Member

    Was the lesson taught by the Gemara [Yoma 47a] which relates that Kimchis had 7 sons who became High Priests because she was so modest that “the beams of her house never saw the hairs of her head” (She would always keep her hair covered even in the privacy of her own home) lost?

    Even putting that aside, I don’t think any a frum person can rationally argue in favor of frum stores selling pure pritzus, which is what Wolf’s point would allow.

    #1025462

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Was the lesson taught by the Gemara [Yoma 47a] which relates that Kimchis had 7 sons who became High Priests because she was so modest that “the beams of her house never saw the hairs of her head” (She would always keep her hair covered even in the privacy of her own home) lost?

    Does the average woman keep her hair covered all the time (meaning while sleeping, showering, etc.?) No. I’d be willing to bet that over 99% of the women in Klal Yisroel today don’t hold to such a standard. So Kimchis’s example is not relevant for most of us.

    That being said, it is still clearly permitted. So answer the question — why should a woman not be allowed to purchase said clothing?

    Even putting that aside, I don’t think any a frum person can rationally argue in favor of frum stores selling pure pritzus.

    I can’t think of a single item of clothing that is “pure pritzus” (i.e. should not be used at any time under any circumstance). If you know of one, please elaborate.

    (Shaatnez and other such considerations aside, of course).

    The Wolf

    #1025463

    shmuel 100
    Member

    I think it would be important to bring to attention another tznius issue that has become common amongst even those who are normally careful and care to do the ratzon Hashem.

    My wife was recently buying a shaitel and being cost concious told me that there are places that cut it for much cheaper that are cut by men. It didn’t sound right to me, but she told me that even the very frum families use them. I decided to ask around anyways what the rabbonim hold, and almost all that I asked held that although someone in a profession has a heter of dealing with ladies, but not if the profession is actually beautifying them. Even those who felt that m’dina it may be Muter held that it’s definitely not proper.

    For those of you who do care to do the right thing at least ask your rav, for besides you maybe doing something wrong, others are also learning from you.

    All the berachos that a person and his/her family receives for keeping the halachos of tznius, are probably even more so where we are willing to spend some extra money for this beautiful mitzvah.

    #1025464

    mdd
    Member

    Kasha, Kimhis is not a proof. She was machmir on herself.

    #1025465

    Ze’evMan: (Don’t know how to make it italics)

    “Does the average woman keep her hair covered all the time (meaning while sleeping, showering, etc.?) No. I’d be willing to bet that over 99% of the women in Klal Yisroel today don’t hold to such a standard. So Kimchis’s example is not relevant for most of us.”

    I’m not sure exactly why “the average woman” is what sets the standard of where people can reach.

    The fact is that women CAN attain these goals. My wife has a separate snoode that she uses for sleeping in, so aside for when she showers or cuts her hair its probably always covered.

    The only difference between the gemarah and nowadays that I can see is that in those days the bathhouses were outside the house, so the walls of HER house would not have seen when she bathed.

    The whole point of that gemarah in my opinion is to teach exactly the opposite of what you are saying. Yes, it is true that Halacha leaves much leeway for what you can where and when. But the gemarah is teaching that a woman SHOULD strive to the utmost to be as tznius as possible.

    In addition the pasuk “hatzneya leches im Hashem elokecha” teaches that ikkur tzniyus is from Hashem, not from other people. So that would mean always not just in public.

    Similarly a man can be yotzei limud torah with the mishnah that we say from pea’ah after birchas hatorah. But the mitzvah of talmud torah is a mitzvah tmidiyus and so a man is required to learn every free moment not just the two halachos that someone in the shteibel says after shacharis to grab another kaddish.

    #1025466

    Kasha
    Member

    mdd: What’s the Gemorah’s point in discussing Kimchis?

    (Also, why did Kimchis merit having 7 Kohanim Gedolim?)

    #1025467

    mazal77
    Participant

    At one of the classes I attend, Rebbetzin mentioned there is a woman who has exceptional children and she is very careful covering her hair, as soon as she washes her hair, she puts on a shower cap. It’s a matter of realizing that we should remember before who we stand at all times. It’s the realization that we are always before Hashem, even in the privacy of ones home.

    #1025468

    apushatayid
    Participant

    re: kimchis. There is what is required by halacha and what I will term hanhaga tova (perhaps chumra is a better term?). Upbraiding people because they dont strive for every hanhaga tova or chumra is counterproductive. Halevai people would follow the halacha. We can worry about producing more kimchises after that.

    #1025469

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Kasha,

    Kimchis doesn’t matter because it’s still not obligatory according to ANY rav. So, instead of answering the question that wasn’t asked, how about answering the one that was.

    Specifically, since there is no question that a woman is allowed to wear whatever she likes when alone with her husband and in private, why should she not be allowed to buy any article of clothing that she can use in those circumstances?

    The Wolf

    #1025470

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Derech,

    I’m glad your wife in on such a high madreiga. I say, without any malice or sarcasm, that I’m happy for you and wish you both extreme happiness in it.

    Nonetheless, not everyone is up to that, nor should everyone automatically be “pushed” up to the strictest level of observance on every issue. Some people just don’t want it (for whatever reason) and, since it’s not actually forbidden, it’s not your place to say that they are wrong. If a woman wants to keep her hair uncovered when she sleeps, showers or even when just home alone, it’s perfectly alright in halacha.

    The Wolf

    #1025471

    Kasha
    Member

    So (at the very least) we see how beneficial it is to keep [the much maligned today, I should add] so-called “chumras”.

    #1025472

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    So (at the very least) we see how beneficial it is to keep [the much maligned today, I should add] so-called “chumras”.

    I see you’re still not answering the question that was asked.

    The Wolf

    #1025473

    Kasha
    Member

    The question that was asked? No a “frum” merchant should NOT be selling pork or pritzus — even though it may be mutter to feed the pork to your dog or use the pritzus for some benign utility.

    #1025474

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    No a “frum” merchant should NOT be selling pork or pritzus — even though it may be mutter to feed the pork to your dog or use the pritzus for some benign utility.

    So (to finally get to my point), I suppose lingerie shops should not exist in your worldview? Or underwear stores?

    The Wolf

    #1025475

    I’m not sure I understand why my wife’s avodah makes you glad. My comment was only to point out that just because people may not do something doesn’t mean they cannot. I’m pretty sure that was self explanatory.

    I think another way to look at it is that stores should sell clothing that conforms to the highest levels of tzniyus for its community (ie. me’ah she’arim shouldn’t be selling skirts only 4 inches below the knee while in America skirts should only begin there).

    At the very least the store owner should feel a responsibility to make sure that anyone who tries on clothing in her store should be allowed to buy it only if it conforms to the her own standards of tzniyus. How can I sell you something that goes against my own principles?

    Those women that feel a need to dress for their husbands in private should be able to buy the clothing that they need in a private venue. The same way we deal with any other issues that are bein ish l’ishto.

    The only reason I can think of not to practice this way is that maybe it would make women who are not interested in maintaining the levels of tzniyus of her community would end up going to a mall where she might buy even worse clothing.

    #1025476

    Kasha
    Member

    Wolf, whats wrong with under garments?

    #1025477

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, whats wrong with under garments?

    I KNEW I shouldn’t have added in underwear as that would sidestep the issue. 🙂

    I was really going for lingerie shops. Should they be closed down, according to your viewpoint?

    The Wolf

    #1025478

    Kasha
    Member

    I’m not sure what lingerie is other than some under garments.

    #1025479

    Kasha
    Member

    So was Kimchis a fanatic who went overboard with “chumras”? Or should we encourage future Kimchis?

    #1025480

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    So was Kimchis a fanatic who went overboard with “chumras”?

    Not overboard, but set a very high standard that most people cannot (and don’t want) to reach.

    Or should we encourage future Kimchis?

    Not if they don’t feel they want to do that.

    The Wolf

    #1025482

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I’m not sure what lingerie is other than some under garments.

    Suffice it to say, lingerie is more than undergarments. If I get more explicit, my posts probably won’t be approved.

    The Wolf

    #1025483

    Kasha
    Member

    “Not overboard, but set a very high standard that most people cannot (and don’t want) to reach.”

    I very much beg to differ. We CAN and WANT to reach her standard.

    “Not if they don’t feel they want to do that.”

    We should encourage them to want to, if they don’t already.

    #1025484

    blinky
    Participant

    “At the very least the store owner should feel a responsibility to make sure that anyone who tries on clothing in her store should be allowed to buy it only if it conforms to the her own standards of tzniyus. How can I sell you something that goes against my own principles?”

    DerechHamelech firstly, its not the store owners responsibility, and secondly everyone has their own level of tzniyus-it does not make any sense to force shoppers to conform to the owners personal opinion on whether something is tzniyus or not-its the shoppers. They will have their own din vecheshbon after 120-it has nothing to do with the owner.

    I would like to add that many stores have a sign in the dressing room that say Halachos of tzniyus, as well as a mirror and a chair for that purpose.

    #1025485

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    We should encourage them to want to, if they don’t already.

    And if, after your encouragement, they still don’t want to cover their head every minute of the day even when halacha doesn’t require it, then what? Will you force them? Or will you let them be within the parameters of halacha?

    The Wolf

    #1025486

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Wolf:

    Not to be picky, but I would stongly argue that the shops in question, if done correctly (no pictures in windows, only women allowed in, etc.) is a Mitzva, as per the Nashim Tzidkanios in Mitzrayim.

    #1025487

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    GAW,

    I agree. But Kasha seems to think that such clothing shouldn’t be worn even in the private company of a woman’s husband (or am I wrong about your position?)

    The Wolf

    #1025491

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Wolf:

    It is possible that Kasha means that without the gedarim required it would be an avairah i.e. pure pritzus, but with them, it is a mitzva, i.e., the proper gedarim help it become a davar shel Kedusha.

    EDITED

    #1025492

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    GAW,

    We’re not talking about gedarim in the home, we’re talking about whether or not a store should be allowed to sell such items. The opinion (as I understand it) that he’s expressed is that, in emulation of Kimchis, such things should not be used at all and therefore not sold (like pork).

    I think we can all agree that a lingerie storekeeper has no obligation (and should not) be following up with her clientele on how these wares are used.

    The Wolf

    #1025493

    apushatayid
    Participant

    People CAN reach a certain standard, and perhaps they SHOULD want to. At the end of the day though, nobody has a right to upbraid someone for not upholding very high standards that are well beyond what is required lihalacha.

    I think Rabbi Reisman, on one of his tapes said it best. He stated that (he didnt offer an opinion why) Bais Yaakovs simply dont teach tznius properly. Focusing on inches and hemlines is one thing. Truly explaining what Tznius really means, might make the difference in doing what halacha requires and striving to be like Kimchis (he didnt say the last sentcne, those are my words, trying to convey his idea).

    #1025494

    myfriend
    Member

    I would like to know what we should do about “frum” girls who repeatedly, and blatantly, go in public in pritzusdika clothing. (e.g. their knees show sometimes, or the clothing is tight, etc.)???

    Its a terrible blight on Bnos Yisroel. And it negatively affects not only the individual engaging in this reprehensible behavior, but it is a slap in the face against the klal. And as was mentioned by others previously, one person doing this causes mass aveiros amongst many innocent persons. (Men can’t walk in the street with their eyes closes, so they will at least briefly see her.)

    Should we ostracize these public repeated blatant overt careless arrogant conceited aggressive sinners??? Publicly humiliate them??? And I don’t mean just the girl, but her father/husband if he tolerates her public behavior too must be penalized. This scourge has been contaminating our streets for too long already. And despite all our Rabbonims many premonitions on this inyan, it still has not been eradicated!

    We’re not even asking anyone to be like Kimchis. We are simply talking about basic bare minimum tznius compliance. The pain is unbearable. This open mass sinning is tremendously hurting us all!

    #1025496

    ChanieE
    Participant

    Why should we hold Kimchis up as a role model we CAN and WANT to emulate? I learned that a married woman’s hair is reserved for her husband’s enjoyment. Maybe women should ask their husbands before they take on chumros that minimize their husbands’ rights.

    #1025497

    Kasha
    Member

    ChanieE: “Why should we hold Kimchis up as a role model we CAN and WANT to emulate?”

    Because the Gemorah [Yoma 47a] does. Her reward was having 7 sons who became the Kohen Godol.

    myfriend: Well cried. Your pain is palpable.

    #1025498

    mazal77
    Participant

    Chanie, I don’t know about you, but covering up my hair does not make it look pretty, underneath. It is constantly in a pony tail and does not look like it use to Pre-sheitel days so to say it’s for my husbands’s enjoyment isn’t correct, trust me, with what it looks like now, I am glad I have to cover it up.

    #1025499

    ChanieE
    Participant

    I can guarantee you that I will not have any sons who are Kohen Gadol, what with my husband being a Yisroel and all that …

    I don’t chas v’shalom mean this in any way as a negative on anything in the Gemara, but there are lots of things in the Gemara that we don’t do. Saying that Kimchis was extraordinarily tzniusdik does not mean everyone should follow her lead.

    Do you think we should take our marital cues from Moshe and Tzipporah? The lessons we learn from Torah aren’t always that we should copy every behavior that is lauded when performed by a specific person or group of people.

    Do you disagree that a married woman’s hair is for her husband?

    #1025500

    ChanieE
    Participant

    Mazal – if your husband doesn’t necessarily care about your hair being long, there are many short styles that hold up fairly well under hair-coverings.

    #1025501

    Kasha
    Member

    ChanieE: You sorely missed the point. The Gemorah cited Kimchis specificly as a Tznius lesson to emulate. Even if one finds it difficult to completely emulate Kimchis, to try as close as possible. What reason did you think the Gemorah wrote about Kimchis? To fill space? There isn’t a single unnecessary letter in the entire Gemorah.

    And the Gemorah’s point about Kimchis’ children was that you WILL be rewarded for doing these “chumros”. So if you aren’t a Kohen, it’ll be something else. Perhaps you’ll produce 7 Chofetz Chaim’s. 🙂

    #1025502

    philosopher
    Member

    I think that frum stores which sell pritzus clothing, (pritzus is pritzus – it means very fitted tops and the like, not denim skirts which some frum women wear and some don’t) is like a grocery store owned by a frum Jew who carries treif foods in his store.

    A lingerie store is a completely seperate issue.

    #1025503

    Kasha
    Member

    I agree. Wearing pritzus is worse than eating treif. Eating treif you are doing an aveira youself, bein adam l’mokom. Wearing pritzus you are doing an aveira yourself – bein adam l’mokom, and causing untold scores of others to sin – bein adam l’chaveiro.

    #1025504

    mazal77
    Participant

    Chanie, it’s not necessarily to have kids who will become Kohen Gadol’s, but to raise good decent kids. In times like these, don’t you think we could use all the help we can get? I wrote above about a woman who has really wonderful children and she is known to be very careful with covering her hair even in her own home. No one is saying not to show your hair for your husband. There is a time and place for that and is a Mitzvah to be beautiful for him. But when you are home alone, it’s just an awareness that we are before Hashem at all times.

    #1025506

    Kasha
    Member

    Every woman, halevay, should be like Kimchis. Kimchis’ “chumra” is endorsed by the Gemorah itself! Everyone is not on the madreiga to be like Kimchis, but certainly everyone should wish (and strive) to be.

    #1025507

    msseeker
    Member

    The Chazon Ish paskened that a woman has no right to support her husband’s learning by selling pritzus clothing (and I can assure you he wasn’t talking about today’s pritzus).

    Chanie, your posts are the epitome of leitzonus.

    #1025508

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The Chazon Ish paskened that a woman has no right to support her husband’s learning by selling pritzus clothing (and I can assure you he wasn’t talking about today’s pritzus).

    So, is it safe to assume that you believe frum women shouldn’t operate (let alone patronize) a lingerie shop (as, I believe, Kasha believes*)?

    The Wolf

    *(Except that he keeps refusing to answer the question)

    #1025509

    missme
    Member

    msseeker, Unfortunately sometimes people engage in leitzonus when they find a mitzvah difficult to keep.

    #1025510

    missme
    Member

    I would like to know what we should do about “frum” girls who repeatedly, and blatantly, go in public in pritzusdika clothing. (e.g. their knees show sometimes, or the clothing is tight, etc.)???

    Its a terrible blight on Bnos Yisroel. And it negatively affects not only the individual engaging in this reprehensible behavior, but it is a slap in the face against the klal. And as was mentioned by others previously, one person doing this causes mass aveiros amongst many innocent persons. (Men can’t walk in the street with their eyes closes, so they will at least briefly see her.)

    Should we ostracize these public repeated blatant overt careless arrogant conceited aggressive sinners??? Publicly humiliate them??? And I don’t mean just the girl, but her father/husband if he tolerates her public behavior too must be penalized. This scourge has been contaminating our streets for too long already. And despite all our Rabbonims many premonitions on this inyan, it still has not been eradicated!

    We’re not even asking anyone to be like Kimchis. We are simply talking about basic bare minimum tznius compliance. The pain is unbearable. This open mass sinning is tremendously hurting us all!

    i believe they should be given a warning privately. if they don’t change their behavior, they should then be put into cheirim.

    I agree. Wearing pritzus is worse than eating treif. Eating treif you are doing an aveira youself, bein adam l’mokom. Wearing pritzus you are doing an aveira yourself – bein adam l’mokom, and causing untold scores of others to sin – bein adam l’chaveiro.

    well put.

    #1025511

    oomis
    Participant

    “Was the lesson taught by the Gemara [Yoma 47a] which relates that Kimchis had 7 sons who became High Priests because she was so modest that “the beams of her house never saw the hairs of her head” (She would always keep her hair covered even in the privacy of her own home) lost”

    Forgive me if I am mistaken, and by all means PLEASE correct me, but I was under the impression that it was KIMCHIS HERSELF who when asked why her children were so special, said that her exceedingly beautiful children were the reward for the beams of her house never seeing a single hair. If I am not mistaken, then it’s well and good for her to believe that about herself, but it really is nothing more than her personal conjecture.

    The Gemarah clearly is teaching an ideeology that women should be tzniusdig, but this story, like many stories, is meant to illustrate a point, not to be taken as a p’sak halacha, I would think.

    #1025512

    WIY
    Member

    WolfishMusings:

    Stop being ridiculous. A lingerie shop is not a problem. The issue with non Tznius outer clothing is that women are being nichshol men with how they dress. Besides why would a frum married woman want to attract the eyes of other married men? I will be dan lekaf zchus that that is not their intention because if it is then we have very huge problems on our hands.

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