Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel

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  • #1025513
    Kasha
    Member

    “If I am not mistaken, then it’s well and good for her to believe that about herself, but it really is nothing more than her personal conjecture.”

    Yes, you are mistaken. Not to be acid, but is further demonstration why Chazal said women shouldn’t learn Gemorah. The Gemorah is agreeing with this observation regaring Kimchis. The Gemorah is not wont of needlessly quoting “personal conjecture”.

    #1025514
    anon for this
    Participant

    Regarding the incident of Kimchis: I believe that there is only one Kohain Gadol at a time. If this is true, does this mean that 6 of the sons of Kimchis died during her lifetime? Presumably Kimchis lived a very long time, then. Is there any record in the gemara of how long she lived, how long her sons lived, and the causes of their deaths?

    #1025516
    Kasha
    Member

    anon: I don’t think every Kohein Godol served in that function until he passed away.

    #1025517

    Anon for this:

    The gemara already dealt with this question. The gemara brings how one of her sons Yishmael was tamei two different times and each time a different brother had to take over for him. Tosefos Yeshanim brings that its likely that this happened other times as well and in this way each of her sons spent some time as the kohein gadol.

    The Gemara that speaks about getting dressed for one’s husband is in Taanis 23b with Abba Chilkiyah who’s wife would get dressed up to greet him when he came home in order that he shouldn’t look at other women.

    I am told that women in Me’ah She’arim have special sheitels that they put on when their husbands come home. So I don’t think that getting dressed for your husband necessitates specifically getting dressed down.

    Like philosopher said I think selling non-tzniusdig clothing in a store is akin to selling non-kosher and kol yisrael areivim zeh la zeh.

    I think a better way to sell lingerie would be to sell it in private to people that need it since it is something that is used in private. There are many other things that we deal with privately when it is connected to private issues.

    #1025518
    anon for this
    Participant

    Kasha, I don’t understand that at all. Please explain.

    #1025519
    Kasha
    Member

    Derech HaMelech explained it far better than I. I believe it will answer your question.

    #1025520
    mdd
    Member

    Kasha, Kimchis had a good chumra, but i t i s n o t a hiyuv for every Bas Yisroel.

    #1025522
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Stop being ridiculous. A lingerie shop is not a problem. The issue with non Tznius outer clothing is that women are being nichshol men with how they dress.

    I’m not being ridiculous. Kasha keeps bringing up Kimchis, so he’s clearly talking about in the privacy of one’s own home — not when women are being nichshol other men.

    The Wolf

    #1025523
    mdd
    Member

    Wolf, if a woman comes to a store and buys nontsniusdic outside clothing, chances are she is buying it to wear it outside, and not bsoh beisa bifnei ba’ala. And the storeowner assists her thereby in her aveira.

    #1025524
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Missme: Exactly which mitzvah is someone who is not doing as Kimchis, not keeping?

    #1025525
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Yes, you are mistaken. Not to be acid, but is further demonstration why Chazal said women shouldn’t learn Gemorah. The Gemorah is agreeing with this observation regaring Kimchis.”

    While I make no claims to understand the response they gave Kimchis, I have a hard time understanding how the phrase “harbe asu vlo hoeelu” indicates an agreement with her answer. Please clarify.

    #1025526
    missme
    Member

    apushatayid –

    If you read again my comment above (the first comment on this page), you will notice I made no mention of Kimchis. In fact, the only mention of Kimchis is in what I quoted — and that statement was “We’re not even asking anyone to be like Kimchis. We are simply talking about basic bare minimum tznius compliance.”

    #1025527
    mdd
    Member

    Missme, we should be moche more. If they fill the pressure from within the frum community, we may turn the situation around.

    #1025528
    missme
    Member

    mdd – I completely agree with you!

    Like I said on another thread, we need to be vocal about it and protest.

    We should call the store owners to the carpet and request she stop selling pritzus. If we don’t, WE are part of the problem rather than the solution. If no one protests, why will SHE care??

    And if she ignores us, perhaps it is time to picket in front of her shop urging customers to shop elsewhere. Print a flyer urging customers to boycott her, and listing nearby competitors, and show it to her before handing them out to potential customers considering entering her store. Allow her to consider the implications and reconsider prior to going through with it.

    That will certainly get her attention.

    (I’m thinking this might even work with people/families that routinely breach tznius b’rabim — by also picketing in front of their houses after asking them to stop and they ignore it.)

    #1025529
    charliehall
    Participant

    philosopher,

    A frum Jew can own a store that sells non-kosher products, even a non-kosher restaurant. What do you think happens to meat that after shechita turns out to be treif? It isn’t all fed to dogs!

    #1025530
    charliehall
    Participant

    Regarding Kimchis, while it might be ok for an individual to take on a chumra, there is NO permission to force others to engage in conduct beyond the requirements of halachah. It might even violate Bal Tosif if you imply that one needs to follow Kimchis in order to be frum.

    #1025531
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, if a woman comes to a store and buys nontsniusdic outside clothing, chances are she is buying it to wear it outside, and not bsoh beisa bifnei ba’ala.

    I agree with you on that. But nonetheless, it is possible to use it in a permitted manner. Kasha thinks that stores shouldn’t sell it even if it can be used in a permitted manner. Furthermore, he feels that everyone should strive to the level of Kimchis. So, it seems to me, that he would say that lingerie stores are assur — and after saying so several times, he has yet to comment. I’m almost inclined to say “shtika k’hoda’a” already.

    The Wolf

    #1025532
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    It’s fairly obvious from the Gemara that there can be multiple Kohanei Gedolim at one time. There’s no reason to say that the majority of Kimchis’s sons died.*

    The Wolf

    (*Other than the fact that the story happened over 2000 years ago, of course.)

    #1025533
    oomis
    Participant

    “(I’m thinking this might even work with people/families that routinely breach tznius b’rabim — by also picketing in front of their houses after asking them to stop and they ignore it.) “

    Who ARE you people? You would actuslly have the chutzpah to picket in front of someone’s private home, embarrassing them b’rabim (a lav d’Oraisa that is equal to murder) because YOU don’t think they have the right to buy clothing that YOU deem less than tzniusdig?????? I hope you are a 100% tzaddik yourself (though how can you be, if you are prepared to be oveir a lav of hamalbin es pnei chaveiro?) The only answer I can come up with is that you are totally messing with us, to see what kind of reaction you will get, and that is so KINDERGARTEN-ish.

    #1025534
    myfriend
    Member

    “You would actuslly have the chutzpah to picket in front of someone’s private home, embarrassing them b’rabim (a lav d’Oraisa that is equal to murder) because YOU don’t think…”

    oomis1105:

    Even though I disagree with your analysis on this issue, I suppose YOU – in order to remain consistent and not hypocritical – are equally outraged against Rav Hershel Schachter for picketing and protesting in front of a tremendous Talmid Chochom and Rov, Rav Blumenkranz, because he disagreed with Rav Blumenkranz’s Beis Din ruling supporting a husband against his wifes demands for a Get.

    After all, if you feel it inappropriate to picket on this religious issue (even though its a basic legal right in American democracy to picket on public property in front of someones shop or home, as Rav Schachter did), you must equally feel so on other religious issues. (Ironically, in that case different Rabbonim shlita had a different opinion on that case and yet he protested; here on the tznius picket proposal the commenter specifically said it would apply in cases of a clear breach of basic bare minimum tznius violations!)

    Or are you selective in your outrage, and only oppose picketing on those religious issues you don’t like but support it when it suits you?

    #1025535
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    (I’m thinking this might even work with people/families that routinely breach tznius b’rabim — by also picketing in front of their houses after asking them to stop and they ignore it.)

    And whose standard will you be applying? After all, some groups require at least 30 denier stockings. Others maintain that having the lower leg bare is okay. Some groups maintain that wearing a sheitel is not tznius (only a tichel or the like is acceptable). Others (Chabad, for example) ONLY wear sheitels and say that other methods are not tznius (since the hair sometimes shows). Other groups will maintain that snoods are not tznius. Others disallow certain colors (while others maintain that the colors are fine) and yet others tend to go for only black/white.

    Whose standard do we choose? Or do we choose the most machmir standard and boycott anyone who doesn’t measure up to that?

    The Wolf

    #1025536
    Kasha
    Member

    We could start with those who routinely dress that their knees aren’t covered in all positions.

    #1025537
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Interesting discussion.

    I would think that to picket in front of a private home should not be done in any example, as to not punish the children and other family members who are blameless in the actions of their parents/spouses.

    A Shul (or even store) may be fair game. A boycott may be more helpful then a picket line.

    As an interesting sidenote: There was a store which is known for selling lingerie that opened in a frum neighborhood (due to the large amount of mail order business they were getting from the area). As soon as they opened, a Rov got up and protested against the store, and how these things are very important in private, but can not be shown in public. He ended up leading a protest that closed the store. It just didn’t get the walk-in business they expected, and it wasn’t worth losing good mail-order customers.

    Da’as Torah knows when to act, not Da’as Hedyot.

    #1025538
    aries2756
    Participant

    myfriend, how can you even compare picketing in regard to a “get” and picketing in regard to “judging others”. Seriously, you would consider picketing someone’s home because you judge them on their tznius?

    #1025539
    myfriend
    Member

    aries: In the case of tznius she is doing worse when she clearly and blatantly dresses in a terrible manner than everyone can agree is inappropriate (like some people said when her knees are routinely becoming uncovered.) She is not only affecting herself, she causing thousands of others to be nichshal and do a serious aveira, everytime she dresses pritzusdik. In the Get case there was a difference of opinion amongst Rabbonim. Since he had Rabbonim who said he was right and nevertheless you feel it was okay to protest in front of his home, certainly in this case you need to be consistent in supporting picketing pritzusdik people.

    #1025541
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “We should call the store owners to the carpet and request she stop selling pritzus.”

    Dont assume the store owner is a female. In my neighborhood, several womens clothing stores are owned by men AND they work full time in the store (if i was a woman I would find that a little creepy – I dont shop in mens clothing stores that employ women, not because of any halachic reasons but I find it a little creepy).

    Last summer a number of women in my neighborhood sent a very strongly worded letter to a store that actually dressed the mannequins in an untzniusdik manner (OK, no jokes about whether mannequins must observe tznius) to show just how the skirts could be worn “just at the kneE” or the elbows were just covered, if you didnt move a muscle) and basicly said they would not shop there and would publicize to as many people as possible not to shop there if they didnt fix the window diaply. Within a week, the mannequins were wearing long flowy denim skirts that would cover a fire truck, even when it was sitting down and climbing stairs. Dale Carnegie has said many times, people are motivated, by 2 things fear and money.

    #1025542
    aries2756
    Participant

    Why don’t you look for designers and encourage them to design tznius clothes that are both modest and fashionable. Find designers who will design for modest women who will allow women to look like women and feel good about themselves without having a look that entices men. Create clothes that have a modern feel to them (meaning fabrics) and colors that are not ‘boring” and always black, but are youthful for the young, and complimentary to all hair colors and skin colors for various and appropriate ages.

    Clothing that is attractive and tznius will give young women a reason to wear it with pride and confidence.

    #1025543
    blinky
    Participant

    This thread makes me laugh. It seems here that everyone is trying to shift the blame onto e/o but themselves. It is NOT the storeowners, designers, or the husbands fault. Everyone is responsible for themselves! the storowner can sell any clothing she likes-not necessarily for her jewish clientele (you’d be surprised that somme goyim shop there)And if she does sell s/t innapropriate WALK AWAY! no one is asking you to buy it!. Buy buying it you are showing that your yetzer hara rules over you-that you have to give in to your taavos. Its scary! The same is for the designers. And by the way whoever is under the assumption that only designer clothes makes a woman feel well dressed-is not true. There are many nice, tzniyus clothing out there that do not have that fancy logo on them. Just open your eyes. As for the husbands-true they should have a say in what their wives/kids wear-but if they still wear it there is no one to blame but them unless their husband bedavka says wear it. (which unfortunately may happen) Other than that its e/o’s own choice what they wear. Furthermore there are plenty of awareness on tzniyus out there-whether its books, speeches.. You just have to be willing to accept it.

    #1025544
    philosopher
    Member

    A frum Jew can own a store that sells non-kosher products, even a non-kosher restaurant. What do you think happens to meat that after shechita turns out to be treif? It isn’t all fed to dogs!

    charliehall, not everything in life is done to the bare minimum of halacha. Even though practicing halacha is of paramount performance, just as there is a concept of basic manners – derech eretz, there is also a concept to of basic frum manners.

    Every frum person walking into a grocery store owned by a frum Jew automaticaly expects the foodstuff to be kosher. I think that is basic frum manners that one expects from a frum owner. Also included in basic frum manners is the issue that is being discussed on another thread of not having women singers and music playing in the three weeks in a frum owned store.

    While I do agree with checking for labels on unfamiliar food items, most people automatically assume that whatever is found in a grocery store owned by a frum Jew has at the minimum an OU hechsher.

    Unless a frum owner has a supermarket that caters mainly to non-Jews, it is a breach of trust, unless one puts out very noticable signs thoroughout the store to indicate that there are treife foodstuff in the store, and definitely not good frum manners if a heimishe grocery store puts out treife food on it’s shelf.

    #1025545
    Kasha
    Member

    blinky: You are mistaken. A Jewish store owner cannot sell pritzus to another Jew. See what the Steipler had to say about that. And the shop owner DOES share the aveira — including all the thousands of additional aveiros by people who see her wearing pritzus.

    And the husbands ARE responsible for the wives and daughters. Unless she is a moredes and refused to listen to him telling her not to wear pritzus (in which case he must divorce her without her getting the kesuba), he fully shares the many aveiros with her for allowing her out that way.

    #1025546
    000646
    Participant

    Myfreind, missme, mdd etc.,

    It seems that many people on this board (also in the respecting people thread) think that they would be able to threaten people into caring about the things they care about. The problem with that is, it just wouldn’t work. the people who walk around with their knees uncovered obviosly dont care if people see them doing so as they WALK AROUND IN PUBLIC like that. Pickiting in front of their houses and harassing them would only make them hate you and anyone they perceive as thinking like you. It wouldn’t make them agree with you, or respect your opinion.

    #1025548
    aries2756
    Participant

    Many frum women buy clothes that are not exactly appropriate and then they alter them to be. I have seen many beautiful outfits with a border added to the hem or sleeves, or a pretty dickie added at the collar. Just because an item leaves the store one way, that doesn’t mean it is used the same way.

    #1025549
    blinky
    Participant

    Kasha- Lets say the Jewish store owner dosn’t sell pritzus clothing-fine, ppl will find a goyish store to shop in to get what they want anyway. All i’m trying to say its e/o’s bechira whether they dress tzniyus or not- not any one elses. As for the husbands, i do agree that they have an achrayus on what their wife wears-but nevertheless again, its SHE who is the who bought it-she should know better.

    #1025550
    myfriend
    Member

    646: That’s an assumption on your part, which may or may not be correct. Unless you know for certain it is the case, you are halachicly *required* to give tochocho. And if after giving the tochocho they still are doing the aveira, you are halachicly *required* to publicly humiliate them until they comply. See Sefer HaChinuch perek 239.

    #1025551
    000646
    Participant

    I cant prove to you that you can’t harrass people into respecting your opinion. However anybody who has any expereince dealing with people will tell you that I am correct.

    Good luck trying.

    #1025552
    000646
    Participant

    “He answers that a true ohev gives tochocho”

    Exactly, but in a smart way that will get the person with whom you are talking to respect and agree with you, not hate you and think you are a wacko (which is what pickitting in front of their house would do).

    #1025553
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    We could start with those who routinely dress that their knees aren’t covered in all positions.

    I’m not as concerned about where you start. I want to know where you’ll end. At what point between knees-showing and Kimchis will you stop and say “It’s okay for her to dress that way.” The answer should be defined in terms of the questions I had above.

    The Wolf

    #1025555
    myfriend
    Member

    If after giving tochocho the person is still doing the aveira, the *halacha* is you have to embarass the person until he complies with halacha.

    #1025556
    000646
    Participant

    Not if you know that embarassing them will be ineffective.

    #1025557
    myfriend
    Member

    True. But unless you *know* that for certain, you are required to give the tochocho.

    #1025558
    000646
    Participant

    How can you ever “know” for certain? You cant. You have to use common sense, here common sense would tell its not going to work.

    #1025559
    myfriend
    Member

    Apparently the poskim I cited (I don’t know if there are any opposing view), hold that sometimes you do know for sure. And otherwise you need to give it.

    I also don’t agree with you that following the tochocho as halacha describes it to be given (including possibly public humiliation if it didn’t help after giving it privately), will be ineffective. There are other circumstances even today (i.e. with the get issue) where public humiliation is utilized. Is that always ineffective iyo?

    #1025560
    000646
    Participant

    “There are other circumstances even today (i.e. with the get issue) where public humiliation is utilized. Is that always ineffective iyo?”

    By a Get it can be effective because most people would not want evreyone knowing that they refused to give their wife a get, by tznius they obviosly dont care if evreyone knows what they are doing as they are doing it in public. Like I said before, it takes common sense.

    #1025561
    myfriend
    Member

    So you agree it can be effective depending on the circumstances. I disagree with you that it can only be effective on the get issue, but not on, lets say, tznius issues. Just as you say that perhaps he doesn’t want people to know he unjustifiably refused a get, and to get public humiliation as a result, I think (after trying private tochocho) public humiliation on this issue has a chance it may be effective on some if not many people.

    I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on its potential effectiveness.

    #1025562
    000646
    Participant

    “Apparently the poskim I cited (I don’t know if there are any opposing view), hold that sometimes you do know for sure.”

    By a Get and certain kinds of cases you can know enough to assume it would work (most people do not want evreyone knowing that they refused to give their wife a Get as well as why their wife is demanding one etc.).

    #1025563
    000646
    Participant

    “I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on its potential effectiveness. “

    I guess so! Good luck with that.

    #1025564
    myfriend
    Member

    I think most people will not want kol korehs and picketing in front of their houses because they dress pritzusdik. I think that kind of humiliation will motivate many people to shape up.

    #1025565
    000646
    Participant

    “I think (after trying private tochocho) public humiliation on this issue has a chance it may be effective on some if not many people.”

    Just out of curiosity what would you tell people? That this woman walks around in front of them not dressed tznius? If she was really not tznius one would think they would have already noticed.

    #1025566
    myfriend
    Member

    True, they would have noticed, but the fact they are being picketed and humiliated itself could motivate some people to change their behavior.

    #1025567
    000646
    Participant

    “I think most people will not want kol korehs and picketing in front of their houses because they dress pritzusdik. I think that kind of humiliation will motivate many people to shape up.”

    I think it would motivate them to get a restraining order as well as make a Chilul Hashem.

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