Daven With A Hat BeYichidus or Without it with a Minyan

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    not with a minyan, miss brilliance. beyochid – by yourself.

    total genius, i must say.


    Moish: how would I no?? I never heard of that word in my life!! Beyachid I did hear though


    it’s plain old hebrew! if it was yiddish you’d have an excuse. but don’t tell me syrians don’t know hebrew either…


    Avoiding talking in shul during davening (prayer services) is a difficult task and requires planning.

    On an individual level one can a) go to a quick Hashkamah (early) minyan (service); b) daven (pray) in a shul where the Rabbi insists on no talking; c) choose a seat close to the front (Mizrach) and if all fails, step out of shul for a few minutes and do the talking outside.

    At the shul level a) the Rabbi can insist on no talking; b) the Gabbi can keep the service moving along at a “good clip”. Our shul has replaced MiShebayruch’s (prayers for individuals getting called to the Torah accompanied with a pledge to the synagogue) with silent donations through pledge cards.


    Well the way it was pronounced…..!!!!!


    oh it’s gotta be “beh-ya-cheed” right? ha ha i can actually do an israeli accent pretty well.


    syriansephardi: pretty funny you didn’t know what it ment!!!!

    moish: nice of ya to explain it so well to her!!!


    i’m always nice to girls – even over the internet.

    oh and guys too. i’m just a nice guy.


    Moish: yeah lol!!!!!

    Asdfghjkl: yeah well….lol



    “you know what you had edited from that post of mine? was i at least right?”

    -You’re right to an extent, but there are other extremely serious issurim involved.

    These are questions you should probably not ask an unknown blogger on this or any other site.

    I think it would be hugely helpful for you if you had someone trustworthy who you knew would never betray your confidence to speak to with questions and issues like these.

    Your reluctance to be preached to is understandable – I am talking about individuals with whom you can talk honestly and be yourself.

    We can all use a non-judgmental, sympathetic ear at times.


    get real there’s no one like that. if i knew you personally i would never have asked you either. there’s one rabbi (is he a rabbi?) that i talk to every once in a blue moon but i try not to get to involved.



    “get real there’s no one like that.”

    -I’m better at cold logic than at “warm and fuzzy” thinking, so let’s look at this logically:

    1) Many, many young adults (like yourself, I remember when I was sixteen, your thought process is not that of a young child) have questions, uncertainties, and guilt from things they have done.

    2) There are individuals and groups who know where you are coming from. Believe me, unless you’ve committed murder, they won’t be shocked. Their “ulterior motive” is to help out young people who are having a bumpy takeoff into adulthood.

    3) Their effectiveness is based on trust. Those who confide in them need to know that what they tell goes no further. If this trust is violated – even once, even with one person, word-of-mouth will let “the street” know that this person can’t be trusted. His effectiveness will be gone forever.

    4) Given the above factors, don’t you think it pays for such a person to keep your secrets? Don’t you think if he had betrayed a confidence you’d hear about it?

    I agree that a total stranger who you don’t know personally may well be a better choice – in the secular world most people want doctors (both physical and mental health) to be someone they don’t know, to avoid social embarrassment.


    Moish, I don’t mean to be mean, but I think u KNOW the answers to ur questions and the problem is u don’t like them and don’t care.


    moish01,asdf,beyichidus is a more yeshivishe word.if you are from a more balei batish background, you might not use it. i once told someone their child was zeese and the person had no idea what it meant.



    Moish, if you saw words like “snioot” or “misswoth” on a Syrian site would you know what was meant? That is how SyrianSephardi sees a word like beyechidus.




    actually syrian used the word “sniut” once so i’m guessing that’s the same thing and it means tznius. no idea what the other one is. (“mitzvos” in yemenite?)

    i can only try – i wrote an answer last night tjat didn’t get put up. which is ok because i think i wanted to change what i said.


    ok I can only try,

    there are some guys out there like that. but not a lot and not the type you could talk to about real things. what does a 20 year old guy know? chances are he answers to someone else – another rov of some sort, right? then what does confidential mean? those are not the kind of guys i’d wanna talk to. they might be chilled but they don’t REALLY know. and there’s no way i’d be able to talk to a rov of any kind – doesn’t matter WHO he is. i just can’t.

    besides, i get into my moods. believe it or not i’m the “spiritual one” from all my friends. which means i maybe care – but i still do my own thing. i couldn’t commit to anything serious.

    and yeh, i’ve been in a serious mood the last couple of weeks. it’ll probably end when i get back out with the guys, though. i wonder.

    and syriansephardi: who says i don’t care? trust me when i say i care. i wouldn’t be here otherwise.


    I am not a hat wearer, not am I a jacket wearer, for davening.

    Before we made aliyah, I occasionally davened in shules where the vast majority of men there wore hats and/or jackets. This brought up questions in my mind that I was never able to answer. For example:

    Suppose one only has a hat that is somewhat smashed or stained. Is it better to daven with that kind of hat than not wear one at all? What about stains on the jacket? A stained tie? I was actually embarrassed at the way some of these gentlemen dressed in the name of “kavod.” This is not even mentioning those that would come in with a dark blue pinstriped suit jacket, matched with brown pants. They were so worried about how they dressed, but wouldn’t take five minutes to match? That’s “kavod?”

    Say what you want about how people here in Israel dress to daven, but I’ll take it any day of the week. Maybe some of the men do show up in jeans, and maybe there are teenagers who have hair that’s a bit long. But they come to minyan. Every day. They sit in shule between mincha and ma’ariv every evening and learn. They learn in shule at night. I still say it’s what’s in your heart.


    “I still say it’s what’s in your heart”

    true, when i eat pork, the taste i love so much brings me to such Simcha that i am better able to learn and daven. that’s really what Hashem cares about. why would he care about which particular animal’s meat i put into my mouth. ridiculous.


    “Is it better to daven with that kind of hat than not wear one at all? What about stains on the jacket? A stained tie? I was actually embarrassed at the way some of these gentlemen dressed in the name of “kavod.”

    Say what you want about how people here in Israel dress to daven, but I’ll take it any day of the week.Maybe some of the men do show up in jeans, and maybe there are teenagers who have hair that’s a bit long. But they come to minyan. Every day. They sit in shule between mincha and ma’ariv every evening and learn. They learn in shule at night. I still say it’s what’s in your heart.”

    Now let’s see…to wear jeans & a filthy tee shirt with you ugly toes sticking out of your sandals IS kavod?

    Clearly not.

    Do the people with the stained jacket & tie & smashed hat not come to minyan every day? Do they not sit in shule between mincha and ma’ariv every evening and learn? Do they not learn in shule at night? Is it not in their heart as well?

    The answer is that every sect has chesronos.

    If so, why would you take the jeans, tee shirt & ugly toes “any day of the week”?

    Why not just cut out the baloney & say it straight out – you don’t like chareidim & are lacking in ahavas yisroel.


    moish- I don’t know if the following words will be the biggest mistake or the best thing on earth. I do not know your emotional makeup or what makes you tick. But the honest truth is that I haven’t stopped thinking about you the entire Friday, Shabbos and Sunday. and I mean NON-STOP. I wonder if you even hear yourself talk (type).

    You’re busy telling us how this spiritual business is not the real you and you CHOSE to do these things etc…

    Well you know what? Hashem didn’t make your leg break and then get you addicted to the CR for nothing. I’m not going to be the one to make these cheshboinos- but at least SEE and absorb what’s going on here! Oh my god! It’s incredible! You have come to a point where you are really looking deep within yourself. And your day is not just to live for the next “fun” moment.

    Don’t let this opportunity slide! Grab hold and run with this newfound clarity, inspiration, yearning… I don’t know what you prefer to call it… to the nearest siddur and ball you eyes out to Hashem! Beg and plead with him to help you out here. To help you make the right decisions when an “opportunity” arises; to help you be strong and fight your ta’avos and your powerful yetzer harah.

    I had so much to tell you over Shabbos, but it’s out of my head now. I want you to know I’m davening for your success and I’ve never been more sincere in my entire life.

    I don’t care if you give a flippant answer and knock this whole thing down to the ground. Anything you say doesn’t matter- my humiliation would have been worth it. Because I truly care. I don’t know HOW it’s possible- I DO NOT KNOW YOU. But I guess choosing my screen name was no coincidence and I really do care for my fellow Jew.

    “sheva yippol tzadik v’kum”

    Of course- speaking to someone that cares would even out that road a bit.

    PS- Please don’t let your surroundings stop you (what will my parents, friends, siblings… think of me.) Believe me, those that are true to you, will stick by you through thick and thin. And those that don’t…

    (MODS- I know this is long, but please post it. I really appreciate your patience to read through this.)


    ames that’s the worst thing anyone said to me all day! at least feel bad for me!

    areivimzehlazeh, two words: you’re crazy.

    i should say thanks for having me in mind, but honestly i don’t even know what i want anymore. and what does “i wonder if you even hear yourself talk” mean anyway?


    areivimzehlazeh: wow i read this over & over again!!!! you spoke from the heart & i really liked what ya said!!! you expreesed everything i’ve been thinkin about moish, in a way that i’ve been wantin to for so long!!! hatzlacha to ya!!!

    moish: please read what he has to say!!! moish i too care about you & wish ya all the best, and that ya find your way back to hashem!!! hatzlacha moish!!!


    Itzik: thanx 🙂

    Moish: u DO care? So why do u go around boasting that u don’t to the misvot?? Like ur proud of it?? Really sounds like u DON’T care. Am I the only one who thinks this way???


    notpashut, don’t judge people.if they dress like that, thats between them and g-d. they did not grow up like you and the mantality is different in israel. i have family both in the chareidi world and datti leumi world. when you look at the datti leumi ones, on first sight you might think, pashut people, not torahdik. sandals. kippa sruga, gun at the side. i’m telling you, they all keep, and i’m speaking about my family, seder in learning which is kodesh kedoshim, davening with a minyan, etc. these are hard working people that are doing what’s right. i’m sure people try to come to davening with presentable clothing.


    syrian, do i sound like that? i dunno. why don’t you take up psychology and figure it out.


    hey i never said i don’t want to. but you could want a lot of things. you can’t have everything.

    gee why does everyone care anyway? this is so strange.



    Your point about “hakol min hashomayim” is on the money – I’ve had an occasion or two myself where something seemingly bad happened that later turned out for the better.

    (If I could write like you did I would.)


    I can only try – nice except there’s an ending to that, right?

    chutz me’yiras shomayim

    think i’m stupid?


    Moish that didn’t make sense. I don’t need to take phsycology to figure it out!! Its figured out!!! Genius.


    areivim, that was awesome. All that I’ve been thinking and feeling and more.

    syrian, I can’t seem to recall where exactly it was that moish was boasting about not doing mitzvot. Please enlighten me.

    moish, to quote ames:

    moish- i don’t feel bad for you because i know you have the power to make the right choices, plus YOU SOOOO WANT TO! don’t even try to tell me otherwise, i don’t care what you say, i don’t believe a word of your “i don’t care about judaism” nonsense. you do care. you are a very good person with a very good heart. i think you are very mature and smart for your age, and are obviously a thinker. i really have a lot of faith in you and i know you’ll find Hashem and yourself in the process.

    In my opinion, everything that you’ve posted on this thread is proof of what ames said about you. I believe that you are a good person who so wants to make the right choices and is completely capable of doing so.



    moish 01, we care about klal yisroel. and it shows that people really care about you.


    it means exactly what it sounds like. you can’t stay in bed and go swimming at the beach at the same time no matter how badly you want to do both. you need to pick one.


    moish – we care because we are all yidden.



    “hakol min hashomayim” together with “gam zu letova”.

    If you see a deeper meaning, you over-darshened my post.


    areivim and ames: you verbalized exactly what I’ve been thinking/feeling.

    moish: your conversation with ICOT (regarding the edited comment) proves that deep down you DO care, even though you may not realize it just yet. and regardless of your feelings and impressions now, you will not remain 16 for the rest of your life, and maybe not today, but I do believe that one day, you will return on your own, not because of any sort of force or because of someones convincing, but because you yourself realize how special it is to have a relationship with HKB”H and how much happiness it adds to your daily life.


    wait a minute. joseph and amichai:

    you care about ME or you just care about klal yisroel as a group?

    had to ask – not that i care.


    moish01: we care, cause we just do!!! the end!!!!



    That was exactly the point of my post.


    ames – basically. or rather, i can’t do whatever i want while doing what i maybe am “supposed to be” doing. i’m sure frum people can have fun – just not my kind of fun.

    kapusta- i already said i’m sure i won’t stay like this forever. you think i’m gonna be 35 years old with no life? i’m sure i’ll get married and have kids and send them to normal schools. (who knows? maybe even my school?!)


    moish, if you need someone to speak with, you don’t neccesarily have to go to a rav. it can be a young man just a few years older than you, it’s good to open up to someone, and not keep everything bottled up inside.


    not my type to talk. i feel like such a girl… you know how they could talk for hours and hours?


    makes sense. i just can’t do that.

    besides, the poor guy i’m doing it in the merit of. he/she would probably die after a day.


    ames- superb

    moish- yes, i’m crazy…. about yidden, about yiddishkeit and about you! I hope you understand how out of character that (long post) was for me. That just shows how deep my feelings are regarding everything I wrote. It was straight from the heart and I davened for you this morning. Please don’t let me down


    thanks but why would you do something for me that i don’t do for myself?

    what’s there to let you down? i’m me and i live for myself.

    (by the way, is this guilt-trip so that i go put on tfillin now and daven mincha??)


    moish- do whatever you want… that’s what you want me to finally say- right? To give up on you. Well guess what buster- I’m not giving up no matter how mad you make me with your “back to fiiiiirst base” questions. You shrug your shoulder, I daven harder.

    Get it? I CARE, I CARE, I CARE. Get that into your stubborn (and brilliant) head. And stop fighting all the wrong demons. We’re not “out to get you”. See this for what it is and stop fooling yourself. The only person you’re kidding is yourself

    I hate typing, and you’re making me do that very often lately. Just for you… I get nothing out of this.

    I’m sorry I can’t provide all the answers- but they’re out there (unlike other faiths). First get on track and I believe once you have the right perspective, most of your questions will fall into place.


    ames- i’m not quite sure how to take that…


    moish, no guilt- trip here. mitzvos are between you and g-d. and when you are ready, you will do it. the gates to g-d are open 24/7. i’m an ffb. i also have a hard time to always daven properly . we are only human. but g-d gives us so many chances to come close to him. and what’s with the girly feeling stuff. it’s gr8 to talk. you are writting here and opening up to us about your feelings. continue and wer’e rooting for you!!


    ames – no deal. if i do it it’s for myself – not to make someone else happy.

    areivim – you’re killing me. what do you expect me to say? “ok because i’m in a sucker mood i’ll drop everything in my life and go buy a new black hat?” is that want from me? face it – as cool as you sound on here, you’re still a stranger and i still have a whole life outside the coffeeroom. (at least i will on thursday when i get this stupid cast off)

    i think i more or less know what people are gonna answer when i ask hashkafic questions. (although i must admit, you’re last couple were really surprising) The questions are: is it for real? do i want to buy that? and is it worth it right now?

    chances are, i could probably fake it online and coach some other kid. i’m sure i know enough of that stuff to be able to spit it right back at you.

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