Dr. Phil, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, mom from LKWD

Mr. Boteach is an expert in making chillul Hashem’s.

I am relatively sure that the moderator will remove this comment, though I hope not, since this is important…

I am going through the same thing as this “model mom”, though not in NYC, and not in public, and I will never go public, since it’s a huge chillul hashem, and I do not believe in that.

From some of the therapists and experts that I have been dealing with, some of the frum, this is NOT an isolated incident, and this happens far more than it should.

I will say, that I watched the program, and it was rather disturbing and disgusting on ALL levels. A few things that were said that I can agree with: Mr. Boteach is a disgusting human being, and Ms. Pearl stated that while Judaism is a beautiful thing, there are corruptions in the system, that often result in corruptions in personality. That, is absolutely true. She did state that the Torah is not meant to be lived like this, and I cannot help but agree. The way a lot of formerly frum women are being treated is a huge reason why so many are chased away from the lifestyle.

MODERATOR: I sincerely hope that you will leave the post up. It really is important.

Chabad threw Boteach out. And that’s something, because Chabad rarely ever throws anyone out.

PuhLease, I wish you Hatzlacha and condone you for not going public with your life issues.

My question though is the following:

Which lifestyle/religion is perfect? Every system in any area/walk of life will have unhappy people and “flaws”. We are humans and by definition are imperfect.

If you tell me that a majority of people in this circle are unhappy that would be one thing, but for some unhappy bitter people to paint the entire religion as oppressive, abusive, in such a negative light is just embarrassing and falsehood.

It would be comparable to having a bad experience at a dentist and then going on TV and accusing all dentists as being evil/awful.

I don’t want to belittle her issues or yours G-d Forbid, but as you stated before, the Religion was not meant to be lived this way, the fact that some lunatics do shouldn’t be relective of the entire religion.

Does she have to be a model, being an actress, exposing her body etc.

When she was with her husband did she conform to snius -modesty- as required by the Torah.

Was she reproved by her husband for her dress.

Did she listen to him.

Did the situation escalate as a result of her actions.

Is it abuse to be reproved by your husband for immodest dress or for immodest behavior.(No)

Is it necessary to make a living from modeling or being an actress.(No and inadvised to do so).

Hang your dirty laundry in public is the new style.

what don”t suckers do for 15 minutes of fame

PuhLease – I too wish you hatzlocha and commend you on not going public. I have a close friend who’s children are suffering from some of the changes she is making and it breaks my heart (both their pain and hers)

Lesschumras – there is no such metzityus as “Rabbi” nowadays, except one who teaches Torah. Boteach is the antithesis of Torah and doesn’t deserve the title. He makes a chilul Hashem on TV on a regular basis. Do you call reform and conservative “rabbis”, “rabbi”? I should hope not.

A basic principle of the Torah is to do what the Torah says regardless of consequences (barring places where the Torah specifically says to mind the consequences). The world is in Hashem’s hands, and we do what he says without selling out and using the ends to justify our means, even if the ends are just and will help out many Jews. They say the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Boteach is a sell out. He sold out to fame, money, and recognition. This is the opposite of the Torah’s instruction, and even if his ends are good and even if he has pure intentions it doesn’t make it any better.

Someone who authors “Kosher Jesus” (sic) deserves no better.

I’ve got little time for Rabbi Boteach. Not a fan. Not sure where he falls on the spectrum, if anywhere. If self promotion was a religion, he would be in line to be the chief rabbi, or pope.

I’m sure that he does some good things. I am sure that he is a knowledgeable man. I am sure he is intelligent. I don’t think any of that makes up for what is glaringly, obviously not so good.

But, yesh din, v’yesh dayon. Denizens of the CR, you ain’t him.

Yitzchokm,

I do not care one way or the other if you believe me or not.

The story is what it is. A community does not need to support someone, but they should not be saying things to his/her children, or about them in front of their children.

I am not a BUM (as you’ve so eloquently put it) because I have chosen not to be frum. Name calling however, does clearly make both my point, as well as Ms. Pearl’s. The TORAH does not permit name calling, regardless of your thoughts. You do not have the right to call me names because you do not like my choices. Aside from the fact that it is a violation of the “Coffee Room” Rules, it is also a Torah violation. But, that doesn’t seem to bother you too much, hmmm?

My family has disowned me, and did take my abusive ex in. However, they did so PRIOR to me becoming non religious. And, my choice in not being frum was in part, due to their choice in taking him in. And it was the greatest gift they could have ever given me, and I thank God for it daily.

I am not frum at all, which was, frankly, not the point of my post. The point of my post, was that what this woman went through is not an isolated incident. The fact is, that this occurs all the time, and many women are afraid to say something because they are afraid of losing everything they have.

You can stick your head in the sand all you want. It does not change the facts that are there. Period.

vochindik – what a meaningful response to someone who seems to have been pushed away by her family and community.

When I learn about what the Torah permits me and any other Jew to do, Name calling those who don’t observe mitzvos after having been abused and then rejected by frum society is pretty much at the bottom of any list I could imagine. I guess you and I have different priorities.

One of the most disgusting things I encounter in our frum and chareidi circles is the insistence, the visceral need to put down “the other” – be it a non frum Jew, a gentile, or someone who holds a less machmir shita – as part of one’s “frum” identity.

That is not what frumkeit is about, that is not what menschlichkeit is about, and it demeans the individual who does it as much as the one who it is aimed at.

PuhLease-

To slander MY community, that this happens “all the time” is says a lot of your thinking.

Getting back to the issue at hand,

And to that I call your bluff.

What is true is that when mothers go “off” and try to bring their children down with them, the community will try to stop you. And will do their best to prevent this from happening.

Not out of hearted toward women, because of the love for the children.

according to this thread,

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/yeshiva-delay

your a man. just to put that out there.

and your saying that your parents took your wife over you.

just saying.

and btw, writing this “Mr. Boteach is a disgusting human being” is, as you’ve so eloquently put it, “a violation of the “Coffee Room” Rules.

But, that doesn’t seem to bother you too much, hmmm?

Syag Lchochma

Re-read my post. i’m not saying you called me a jerk

lesschumras

“I disagree with everytbing the Satmar stand for but I wouldn’t call them Mr”

Well, first your grammer & spelling is very Satmarish….

So you disagree with the all following:

1)HATZOLA – was founded in Williamsburg & the name was given by the Satmar Rebbe ZTL

2) Bikur Cholim – the first & largest in the world is the bikur Cholim founded by the Satmar rebbetzin

3) Shomrim – started in Williamsburg

4) Chesed rides to hospitals – founded by a Satmar yingerman in Williamsburg

Shame on you!!

yitzchokm -“What is true is that when mothers go “off” and try to bring their children down with them, the community will try to stop you. And will do their best to prevent this from happening.”

Halevy!

They sure didn’t care that much in my case. I got next to nothing from anyone. So “Puhleae” is pretty on the mark. Since they don’t care about the kids -the reason that others took the side of her hubby was because of Negious. It had nothing to do with Frumkeit. And the next thing you’ll tell me for rebuttal is -I must not be Frum and you know that because I have the internet. (:0

Health, noone’s gunna deny that we need to do more to help childreb of devorced parents.

Still people seem to become more involved when religious is at stake.

I don’t really have a sharp rebuttal. sorry!

Ill let the typo police take care of you.

Negious? Really?

Health and Puhlease have it right, at least to the extent that even if one or the other of the husband or wife have issues, be they otd, emotional, verbal or physical abuse, The community can and does act in a “circle the wagons” and white blood cell-like expulsion or ostracism of the unwanted.

1. yes, I used to share the account with my ex. Still, not the point.

2. Many of you are doing a beautiful job of making my point for me, so thank you for that.

3. My life choices are not up for debate. Whether you believe me or not, is not a care of mine. The point is, abuse is rampant in the frum community. Believe it or not, you can deny deny deny, but it IS out there.

4. “Rabbi” or “Mr” Boteach, is disgusting. The fact is, frum or not, no matter who or what some of you think I am, I would not discuss my sex life with anyone in public, whether I had a title in front of my name or not. I did not go on national television and discuss with Roseanne Barr, Madonna, or Michael Jackson how to live and have a better sex life, in order to make a holy dollar. Shmuely Boteach did. The Torah is supposed to be a guideline for modesty. This may come as a shock, but it is possible to be modest and not frum. It is also possible to claim to be God fearing and still be abusive, neglectful, vindictive, petty, mean and nasty (as some of you are doing a fabulous job of showing, so thanks again).

I did not join this discussion to be further abused by more “frum” Jews. I could have stayed firmly in the community I used to live in for that. I will say this: Again, many of you have done a great job of affirming my thoughts of frumkeit.

Moderator: Please consider leaving this post up. I will not be joining in this discussion further. I have had enough abuse from the Frumma Yidden in here, but perhaps this will cause some “very holy” people in here to realize that pushing someone who has already had enough abuse, further away, is not going to gain them a seat next to anyone Holy after 120 years.

FYI: Faranuk Margolis wrote an excellent book called “Off the Derech” Some of you holy people should consider reading it.

Does faranak margolese do public speaking,

Puhlease, I can’t understand why some people here are talking this way to you. I guess in our day and age people are so insecure that they need to tear others down to build make them feel good about themselves. I wish you to recognise that there is a God, whether you choose to be frum or not, and I wish for you to be happy above all. Even though I am not within my representational jurisdiction to do so, I apologize for the condescending remarks that have been thrown at you by those misled and miserable people here who chose to talk that way.

PuhLease -“3. My life choices are not up for debate. Whether you believe me or not, is not a care of mine. The point is, abuse is rampant in the frum community. Believe it or not, you can deny deny deny, but it IS out there.”

I understand your frustration about many members of the Frum community. Some of these members have destroyed my marriage and thereby causing my family to go OTD.

There is one reason that I have not thrown in the towel and it’s because I realize these “Frum” Jews, no matter high up they are in the Frum society, even if they are the very top, are Not representative of Hashem – only Hashem’s Torah is his representative! Of course, the basic question remains -why does Hashem allow these people such power? I could try and say -maybe this is part of their Bechira. I could guess many reasons, but to know the real reason why Hashem does this – will have to wait until after 120. I believe that Hashem does have a reason that every human can understand, just he hasn’t revealed it yet.

I actually pity these “Frum” people and their protectors because of their Gaava due to their positions of power, they will never come to Teshuva -since they never did anything wrong. They will end up having a very hard Din V’cheshbon!

Health, Puhlease, Don’t worry Hashem has his reasons for things. I am a ger for about 7 years. I came from a state where there are no frum people I had just been learning about Yiddishkeit alone on the internet. When i moved to New York and went to Yeshiva and was megayer (I was megayer at young age) I learned more and more Torah and was around frum people for a while. It bothers me too how messed up the frum community is. For most FFB’s Yiddishkeit is just a habit they grew up with. Hashem is not thought about too often. The “R-A-B-B-I” is just a title in front of the name and means nothing today. most of them don’t “practice want they preach” and are groyser ameratzim. For me I want true Yiddishkeit I can see through the “R-A-B-B-I” and only associate with true Tzadikim who are real talmidei chachumim. It is very disappointing to see what most “frum” people are like. I expected that “frum” people would be better and heiliger but unfortanunley this is not the case. But now we are holding in the ikvis d’meshicha in the olam hasheker. IY”h Moshiach Tzidkeini will come bimhairu b’yumeini umein.