Eruv in Brooklyn

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  • #761461
    Smile_its_EZ
    Member

    SJSinNYC: I was in the same situation twice a few months ago…either I had a relative babysit the newborn (I left a bottle) and the other time, I stayed at an apt across the street from the hall and we had the waiter push the carriage across the street.

    #761462
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Smile, aren’t there lots of problems having a non-Jew do that for you? Also, right now I’m nursing exclusively (my son is just one month) so he doesn’t take a bottle.

    #761463
    Smile_its_EZ
    Member

    Did you try pumping?

    also..I thought so too, but i’m not a rav. We asked our LOR and thats what we were told.

    #761464
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    SJS:

    I have had to stay in brooklyn for shabbos (oy!:) and those with small children by the simcha either were babysat for or were next door to where the simcha was and an eruv was placed between the two homes.

    #761465
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I’m going to climb out of my hole for a sec…

    EDITED

    And no, I personally would not use the eruv in brooklyn, and am sorry to say that I am not learned enough to make a qualified opinion.

    OK, back into the hole, and pulling the manhole cover back on top.

    #761466
    david1999
    Member

    Prove it.

    Because it is less questionable than many other issues then you realize.

    There is no such halachah.

    #761467
    david1999
    Member

    No one says Rav Moshe was wrong only that he had chiddushim in eruvin. As a matter of fact Rav Moshe admits that his chiddushim in eruvin were not accepted by the poskim. Rav Shachter allows eruvin in large cities because he follows the Chazon Ish. It is obvious that your story hut nist kein hent un feis.

    Rav Moshe did not do research he simply derived this chiddush from the diglei hamidbar. Actualy Rav Moshe admits that we follow the Shulchan Aruch and the requirement of shishim ribo is daily. Rav Moshe does not say if it is less it is still a reshus harabbim only that people would think that it is a reshus harabbim. Anyway, Coney Island is separated from Brooklyn by mechitzos.

    If you mail a letter to Queens, you don’t write “Queens, NY”. You write Kew Garden Hills, or Flushing, etc.

    #761468
    david1999
    Member

    Actually, the census does include illegals in their count. Feif is incorrect, Rav Moshe requires a daily shishim ribo as mentioned in the Shulchan Aruch. Rav Moshe maintains that with a population of less than shishim ribo the area is not classified as a reshus harabbim.

    #761469
    david1999
    Member

    You are missing the point. According to Rav Moshe we only tally a twelve mil by twelve mil area. You are including a much greater region. As a matter of fact Brooklyn itself is larger than twelve mil by twelve mil, and as such its total population should not be included in the tally.

    #761470
    david1999
    Member
    #761473
    Joseph
    Participant

    At the end of the day, as far as following the Psak Din is concerned what difference is it to a layman WHY Reb Moshe paskened the way he did (unless the metzius on the ground changed since the Psak Din was issued.) The fact is, Reb Moshe paskened it is assur.

    #761474
    david1999
    Member

    EDITED

    Anyway the metzius is different: 1) Brooklyn does not contain a population of 3 million. 2) Brooklyn is encompassed by mechitzos. Consequentially, even Rav Moshe would allow an eruv in Brooklyn.

    #761475
    david1999
    Member

    Oh, by the way Rav Moshe never issues a bsak din opposing an eruv.

    #761476
    Joseph
    Participant

    1) Brooklyn does not contain a population of 3 million.

    How is this different than when Reb Moshe issued his Psak Din? The population wasn’t over 3 million then either. Please see the historical census data previously posted on this thread.

    2) Brooklyn is encompassed by mechitzos.

    How is this different than when Reb Moshe issued his Psak Din?

    #761477
    david1999
    Member

    I am not accusing you in particular of making uneducated comments. My point was that this thread and many others like it contain comments that have nothing to do with the facts.

    Rav Moshe was under the impression that Brooklyn is not encompassed by mechitzos.

    #761478
    Joseph
    Participant

    david – Are you trying to claim Reb Moshe ZT’L was not opposed to an Eruv in Flatbush?

    #761480
    david1999
    Member
    #761481
    Joseph
    Participant

    That statement about Rav Moshe ZT’L is not accurate.

    “Rav Moshe was under the impression that Brooklyn is not encompassed by mechitzos.”

    And to say that the mechitzos encircling Brooklyn are sufficient even

    #761484
    smartcookie
    Member

    ATT MODS: this thread is really not bringing any good to this coffee. The comments here are not so nice to put it mildly.

    This thread will anyway not be the deciding factor for pple to start or stop using the eruv. All its accomplishing is a lot of friction here….

    How about ummm….closing it?

    #761485

    Smart cookie is correct. Please refrain from insulting comments about other posters and stick to the issues or this thread will be closed

    #761487
    cherrybim
    Participant

    Smart cookie and Mod80: Do you really see insulting comments?

    EDITED

    Not anymore

    #761488
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Mod 80,

    Why was that post removed?

    The Wolf

    Please email me at @theyeshivaworld.com">moderator80@theyeshivaworld.com if you would like an answer

    #761489
    david1999
    Member
    #761490
    david1999
    Member

    #761491
    david1999
    Member

    So we are to believe a kol korei over a teshuvah? Rav Moshe clearly mentioned to the rabbanim of Flatbush that his chiddush is contrary to the Achronim and that he really did not want to mix into the matter. Now you want us to believe that all of a sudden Rav Moshe would sign a kol korei that states that there is no halalchic basis to establish an eruv? Please, we all know that Rav Moshe would not sign on a akol korei containing such language.

    [Actually, Brooklyn has the added benefit that since our mechitzos are at the waterfront, even Rav Aharon would admit that they are sufficient since there is no rabbim traversing them.]

    minimally EDITED

    #761492

    1) The issues involved are incredibly detailed and complex.

    For those who are interested, the full document is available at:

    http://shaareishalom.tripod.com/eruv.pdf

    I request that this URL be allowed since it involves halocha and is very applicable to the discussion at hand. If you would prefer, I am willing to cut-and-paste the entire eleven-page document piecemeal.

    #761493

    david1999-

    Hi.

    [Actually, Brooklyn has the added benefit that since our mechitzos are at the waterfront, even Rav Aharon would admit that they are sufficient since there is no rabbim traversing them.]

    Are you referring to the Belt Parkway trenches and overpasses?

    #761494
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    FWIW, I *do* know him. I’ve always found him to be intelligent, thoughtful and well-learned.

    That being said, I have not read his pamphlet on the eruv, and I would probably not be qualified to comment on it even if I did; so I will not comment on the pamphlet directly.

    The Wolf

    #761497
    david1999
    Member

    I can only try – There are mechitzos encompassing Brooklyn on three sides at its waterfront. These include, gates, seawalls and the Belt Parkway.

    #761500
    david1999
    Member
    #761502
    david1999
    Member

    Rav Hirsch writes in his introduction (page 1-2):

    [Agudas HaRabbonim]

    #761504

    As you can see, the hebrew lettering unfortunaly got reversed.

    I can try this again tonight on my home PC which doesn’t have this problem.

    For now I suppose you can leave it up (since it is mostly readable) or delete it.

    Once I b’n paste the “fixed” version, this one can be deleted.

    #761505
    david1999
    Member

    Rav Hirsch continues:

    Page 3 comment 2:

    Page 3 comment 4:

    Page 3 comment 5:

    #761506

    WolfishMusings-

    Thank you for the info re: Rabbi Yisroel Hirsch.

    If I find something online related to learning and halocha which looks OK to me (knowledgeable, correct [frum] hashkofa) but I don’t know the author myself, I feel obligated to mention that fact as an implicit “check out his bona fides for yourself” disclaimer.

    david1999-

    There are mechitzos encompassing Brooklyn on three sides at its waterfront. These include, gates, seawalls and the Belt Parkway.

    1) I assume when you say “there is no rabbim traversing them” you mean 600,000. Is this correct? (the belt at rush hour gets pretty busy)

    2) Do you mean seawalls above ground level, or also those at ground-level, such as the the one next to the belt parkway where it abuts the water?

    3) By “gates” do you mean Seagate’s wall or are there others as well?

    #761507
    david1999
    Member

    Rav Hirsch continues:

    Page 4 comment 7:

    Page 4 comment 8-9:

    Rav Hirsch is conflating mikorah [roofed] with mefulash [open] [However, according to Rav Moshe, a roofed area does not divide the tally of shishim ribo into separate parts of less than shishim ribo (ibid., 5:28:20).]

    Page 4 comment 10:

    [of mefulash]
    [straight]

    Page 5 comment 11:

    [600,000 people traversing]

    Page 5 comment 12:

    Page 5 comment 13:

    Page 5 comment 14:

    Page 5 comment 15:

    #761508
    david1999
    Member

    Rav Hirsch continues:

    Page 5 comment 16:

    Page 6 comment 18:

    “I am unaware of the circumstances which surrounded the eruv in Paris. But the information provided herein proves, ostensibly, that the authors of this work are not better informed. No meaningful point can be extrapolated from this case until all its specifics are revealed.”

    Page 6 comment 20:

    Page 6 comment 21:

    ” is inaccurate.”

    Rav Hirsch is incorrect (see above).

    Page 6 comment 22:

    ” is inaccurate.”

    Page 6 comment 23:

    ” is inaccurate.”

    Page 6 comment 24:

    #761509
    david1999
    Member

    Rav Hirsch continues:

    Page 7 comment 25:

    Page 7 comment 26:

    Page 8 comment 27:

    Page 8 comment 28-30:

    Has already been discussed in comment 24-26.

    Page 8 comment 31:

    Page 9 comment 32:

    Page 9 comment 33:

    Has already been discussed in comment 15.

    Page 9 comment 34:

    [that Rav Moshe agrees that there is almost no true reshus harabbim today] [using a cane on Shabbos]

    Page 9 comment 35:

    [Regarding the Manhattan eruv, Rav Moshe agreed that the rabbanan can do as they please (Igros Moshe, O.C. 4:89 and HaPardes, 33rd year, vol. 9) but then signed on the 1962 takanah against an eruv. However, Rav Moshe stated (Igros Moshe, O.C. 4:86 and Addendum to O.C. 4:89) that he had signed against the Manhattan eruv because Rav Aharon Kotler zt”l and other members of the Agudas HaRabbonim had enacted a takanah against establishing an eruv in Manhattan.]

    Page 9 comment 36:

    Page 9 comment 37:

    Page 10 comment 38:

    Page 10 comment 39:

    Page 10 comment 40:

    #761510

    If anyone is actually reading these voluminous pasted posts, please let me know otherwise we’ll go back to actual posts by human beings, or close the thread if no one is still interested.

    #761511
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I’m interested in the thread… just not in reading large posts. 🙂

    The Wolf

    #761512
    aryeh3
    Participant

    This thread is proof of one of the reasons I have heard given for not constructing this eruv – there is so much controversy around the issue that building it and some recognizing it, while others not, does not increase Ahavat Yisroel, but in fact undermines it, puts a stumbling block in front of the blind concerning lashon hora, and encourages dissention among Klal Yisroel inevitably causing disrespect to some gedolim.

    #761513
    david1999
    Member
    #761514
    sammygol
    Member

    Actually these long posts by David are quite interesting. David’s information is precise, and he obviously is very knowledgeable in the issues. Keep them coming.OK

    EDITED

    #761515

    YW Moderator-80-

    My own cut-and-paste job can be deleted since the original is available on the .pdf whose URL you allowed. This will also save me a little time tonight so I don’t have to cut, paste and format again 🙂

    “david1999″s posts include the original point and his comments, and are therefore more useful (as “sammygol” said).

    I would suggest the use of italics and bold-facing in his posts to make it easier to tell who is saying what.

    I’d also suggest possibly breaking them up (if possible) into several shorter posts.

    “aryeh3″‘s point is valid that care must be exercised to not be disrespectful, but it is certainly possible to have this machlokes in a perfectly OK manner.

    #761516

    Okay ICOT. Do you think you can teach David how to do italics? I don’t think any moderator is going to take the time to do it for him.

    #761517
    Feif Un
    Participant

    I read them.

    ICOT: one point regarding the Belt Pkwy: I was told that R’ Moshe held that people in cars don’t count towards the 600,000, as a car is considered an ohel, and the person is considered indoors. On the Belt, you can’t count 1 in 5 as being outdoors. R’ Ovadiah Yosef disagrees with him on this, and says people in cars do count towards the 600,000.

    Just to note, I am against the eruv, I’m just pointing something out.

    #761518

    OK

    <em>Anything between the opening and closing "em" tags will be italicised.</em>

    Anything between the opening and closing “em” tags will be italicised.

    <strong>Anything between the opening and closing "strong" tags will be bolded.</strong>

    Anything between the opening and closing “strong” tags will be bolded.

    <em><strong>Anything between the opening and closing "em" and "strong" tags will be bolded and italicised.</strong></em>

    Anything between the opening and closing “em” and “strong” tags will be bolded and italicised.

    #761519
    aryeh3
    Participant

    “Are you arguing that those who maintain that an eruv is a mitzvah and a chiyuv should not erect one because some people feel that they have to fight its establishment?

    The level of controversy concerning this erev is unique. I don’t it is productive to extrapolate and try to establish a precedent for ALL eruvim.

    #761520
    david1999
    Member

    I can only try:

    2) Where the Belt abuts the water the seawalls are clearly above ground (otherwise there would be flooding).

    #761521
    jphone
    Member

    “That Sefer” that is being referenced. Is it “Al Mitzvas Eruv”?

    #761522
    david1999
    Member
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