Gee thanks, anti-vaxxers

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  • #617726

    mw13
    Participant
    #1155951

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Chicken pox?

    That’s the big risk of not vaccinating now? The annoying rash that everybody in the world who is over 30 got as a kid?

    #1155952

    πŸ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    It can spread to adults who didn’t have it as a child.

    #1155953

    Chicken pox can be dangerous to some people, and a small percentage of people can get it a second time or after vaccination.

    #1155954

    feivel
    Participant

    Shingles only occurs in persons who have previously had chickenpox

    #1155955

    writersoul
    Member

    I know several people who had deformed babies after getting chicken pox in pregnancy.

    #1155956

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Chicken pox can be dangerous to some people, and a small percentage of people can get it a second time or after vaccination.

    Vaccine can also be dangerous for some people.

    #1155957

    The question is the numbers, and which is more dangerous – everyone getting vaccines or everyone not.

    Even on an individual basis, is not getting vaccinated more or less risky than getting vaccinated?

    That’s without even contemplating the moral issue of possible self interest vs. the potential to be the cause of harm to others.

    #1155958

    Moshe1994
    Participant

    ?an(t)??vaks?r,?an(t)??vaks?r/

    nounUSinformal

    a person who is opposed to vaccination, typically a parent who does not wish to vaccinate their child.

    “experts say several diseases that are avoidable are making a comeback due to anti-vaxxers who refuse to vaccinate their kids” (anti vaxxers are dangerously stupid in my opinion).

    #1155959

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    That’s without even contemplating the moral issue of possible self interest vs. the potential to be the cause of harm to others.

    That goes both ways.

    #1155960

    feivel
    Participant

    “several diseases………..are making a comeback”

    There’s got to be a better way to phrase that.

    #1155961

    Avi K
    Participant

    It is an obligation to listen to the doctors (Maharik Shoresh 159, Shevut Yaakov 1:65, Yalkut Yosef Kitzor Shulchan Aruch Laws of the Doctor and the Obligation to be Cured 2). As this is a public health matter it would seem that he authorities should compel parents to vaccinate their kids.If they do not are their kids become ill they would chayavim b’dinei Shemayim (as it is gramma).

    Once a baal bayit refused to eat on Yom Kippur against his doctor’s orders. He died and Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky, who was the rav of the town, ordered him treated like a suicide.

    #1155962

    lonejew
    Member

    In this case, taking this vaccine may due more public harm than good.

    Here’s some info about it:

    sorry, no links

    #1155963

    theprof1
    Participant

    Anybody who refrains from vaccinating their family for any diseases which have vaccines available, is oiver ushmartem meod es nafshoseichem.

    #1155964

    akuperma
    Participant

    How much is attributable to “anti-vaxxers” and how much is attributable to limited access to adequate primary health care?

    Given that Williamsburg’s Jews tend to follow their rebbe, are any rabbanim telling them to avoid vaccines? If not, that would suggest ideology isn’t a factor.

    #1155965

    That goes both ways.

    How so?

    #1155966

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    That goes both ways.

    How so?

    Because you’re pushing medical intervention on me for your benefit that could be harmful to me. So you should also contemplate the moral issue of possible self interest vs. the potential to be the cause of harm to others.

    It is an obligation to listen to the doctors (Maharik Shoresh 159, Shevut Yaakov 1:65, Yalkut Yosef Kitzor Shulchan Aruch Laws of the Doctor and the Obligation to be Cured 2). As this is a public health matter it would seem that he authorities should compel parents to vaccinate their kids.If they do not are their kids become ill they would chayavim b’dinei Shemayim (as it is gramma).

    Presumably that is talking about where the doctors are acting responsibly and giving you medical advice that is appropriate to you. In this case, the doctors are giving you medical advice that is not appropriate for you (or at least they haven’t even contemplated whether it is), for the benefit of other people.

    #1155967

    But it’s to your benefit as well, according to conventional medical knowledge, which is what we accept l’halachah.

    #1155968

    charliehall
    Participant

    “Vaccine can also be dangerous for some people. “

    Nowhere near the danger from the disease. About a hundred people used to die from the varicella virus each year in the US. The vaccine for varicella was introduced in 1995; in a dozen years the number of deaths had been reduced to six. The number of deaths in the US from the vaccine has been zero.

    Vaccinate your kids!

    #1155969

    apushatayid
    Participant

    My take: I have no plans on coming into close contact with one of these kids or one of their immediate family members, so, I dont care. Let the not vaccinate, let them get chicken pox and deal with the potential fallout. They are , I have to assume, responsible adults, making informed decisions, they have to live with the consequences of there decisions. If I had kids in Williamsburg yeshivos, or if I myself had what to do with them, I might think differently. Arvus only goes so far. Making medical decisions for other people is not part of it.

    #1155970

    charliehall
    Participant

    “It is an obligation to listen to the doctors (Maharik Shoresh 159, Shevut Yaakov 1:65, Yalkut Yosef Kitzor Shulchan Aruch Laws of the Doctor and the Obligation to be Cured 2).”

    This has been accepted halachah for a thousand years.

    Not vaccinating your children also violates the prohibition of following in the ways of the sectarians: The State of California found that the school that had the largest fraction by far of unvaccinated children was the one run by the Berg Kabbalah Centre cult.

    #1155971

    charliehall
    Participant

    “Presumably that is talking about where the doctors are acting responsibly and giving you medical advice that is appropriate to you.”

    If you lack an advanced degree in either medicine, epidemiology, or some other related public health field (mine is in biostatistics), you have no basis on which to claim that the medical advice regarding vaccines is inappropriate nor do you have the ability to even evaluate the anti-vaxxer propaganda.

    #1155972

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    But it’s to your benefit as well, according to conventional medical knowledge, which is what we accept l’halachah.

    I don’t believe that’s the case. Certainly nobody is making that case.

    #1155973

    Health
    Participant

    MW13 -“Can we all stop this stupidity now??”

    No we can’t! Our government bought into the Anti-vaxxer’s theories. That’s why all of our vaccines are much weaker than they used to be!

    #1155974

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Nowhere near the danger from the disease. About a hundred people used to die from the varicella virus each year in the US. The vaccine for varicella was introduced in 1995; in a dozen years the number of deaths had been reduced to six. The number of deaths in the US from the vaccine has been zero.

    Was there anything different about those 100 that you could predict who the chicken pox would harm and who it wouldn’t? Why not just vaccinate those people at risk?

    #1155975

    charliehall
    Participant

    “Anybody who refrains from vaccinating their family for any diseases which have vaccines available”

    There actually ARE contraindications to some vaccines, but they are very rare.

    Here is the list of contraindications based on current knowledge:

    copied from cdc website – link removed

    “Contraindications and Precautions for Varicella Vaccination

    Information for Healthcare Providers

    Contraindications

    has a history of anaphylactic/anaphylactoid reaction to gelatin, neomycin, or any other component of the vaccine

    has blood dyscrasias, leukemia, lymphomas, or malignant neoplasms affecting bone marrow or lymphatic system

    is receiving prolonged, high-dose systemic immunosuppressive therapy (?2 weeks), including large doses of oral steroids (?2mg/kg of body weight or a total of 20mg/day of prednisone or its equivalent for people who weigh >10kg)

    has a moderate or severe concurrent illness

    has received blood products (such as whole blood, plasma, or immune globulin) during the previous 3 to 11 months, depending on dosage

    has a family history (first degree relatives) of congenital hereditary immunodeficiency, unless the person is immunocompetent

    is or may be pregnant. For more information, see Guidelines for Vaccinating Pregnant Women: Varicella and Vaccination Recommendations for Specific Groups

    .

    Some people with contraindications for varicella vaccine may receive varicella zoster immune globulin after being exposed to varicella. For more information, see Managing People at Risk for Severe Varicella.

    Precautions

    People with Acute Illness

    People with acute severe illness, including untreated, active tuberculosis, should postpone vaccination until they recover. The decision to delay vaccination depends on the severity of symptoms and the etiology of disease.

    People with Thrombocytopenia

    Recipients of Blood Products

    People who have recently received (within 3 to 11 months depending on dosage) blood, plasma, or immune globulin products should not be vaccinated.

    Blood, including whole blood, packed red blood cells, and plasma, and other antibody-containing blood products may interfere with the effectiveness of the vaccine.

    People who have received varicella vaccine should not receive blood products for 14 days after being vaccinated unless the benefits of blood product outweigh the need for protection from vaccination.

    People Receiving Salicylates

    People should avoid using salicylates for 6 weeks after getting varicella vaccine. This is because of the association between aspirin use and Reye syndrome following varicella, and also the potential risk of Reye syndrome if a person is given aspirin after varicella vaccination.

    Take caution when vaccinating children who are receiving salicylates. However, no adverse events have been reported.

    Children with rheumatoid arthritis or other conditions that require therapeutic aspirin should be monitored closely after they get vaccinated.

    For more information, see Chart of Contraindications and Precautions for varicella vaccination.”

    Everyone else who has not had chickenpox who is over the age of 12 months should be vaccinated. Period.

    #1155976

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If you lack an advanced degree in either medicine, epidemiology, or some other related public health field (mine is in biostatistics), you have no basis on which to claim that the medical advice regarding vaccines is inappropriate nor do you have the ability to even evaluate the anti-vaxxer propaganda.

    Sure, if you agree to only have opinions in your area of expertise, I’ll agree to only have opinions in mine.

    Is it a deal? I have semicha, so that means you can’t express (or even have) any more opinions about halacha.

    So for example you couldn’t say: Not vaccinating your children also violates the prohibition of following in the ways of the sectarians: The State of California found that the school that had the largest fraction by far of unvaccinated children was the one run by the Berg Kabbalah Centre cult.

    #1155978

    Was there anything different about those 100 that you could predict who the chicken pox would harm and who it wouldn’t? Why not just vaccinate those people at risk?

    Highly doubtful that you could isolate those kids.

    #1155979

    BTW, charliehall, I agree with you to vaccinate your kids, but not because the Bergs don’t. I have no idea why that should make a difference.

    #1155981

    feivel
    Participant

    “About a hundred people used to die from the varicella virus each year in the US. The vaccine for varicella was introduced in 1995; in a dozen years the number of deaths had been reduced to six.”

    You have to use some intelligence when you look at statistics.

    If you look at a graph of chickenpox cases in the US, you will see a remarkably precipitous decline starting in about 1987. From 1987 until 1995 when the vaccine was introduced the rate of infections dropped from over 200,000 to about 70,000. in the 8 years BEFORE THE VACCINE WAS INTRODUCED. The decline merely continued, maybe accelerated somewhat after then.

    What caused it? Don’t know.

    #1155982

    charliehall
    Participant

    “I have no idea why that should make a difference.”

    Just pointing out the kind of hashkafah that leads to people not vaccinating.

    #1155983

    charliehall
    Participant

    “Is it a deal? I have semicha, so that means you can’t express (or even have) any more opinions about halacha.”

    I don’t have semicha and don’t want it. But *I* have been through Tanakh and the entire Bavli so I am not a complete ignoramus. The anti-vaxxers ARE ignoramuses; they make basic errors in logic that would earn them a failing grade in any epidemiology class.

    “you couldn’t say”

    I can’t say that the Berg cult isn’t Judaism???? You need to have semicha to say that??????

    #1155984

    feivel
    Participant

    The list of contraindications means zero.

    Those that advocate not vaccinating do so because they ALREADY don’t trust Big Medicine. (cant imagine why)

    You want to refute them with further pontification from Big Medicine?

    #1155985

    feivel
    Participant

    “You have to use some intelligence when you look at statistics.”

    Don’t want to be accused of “derision”, should have written: You have to be careful when you look at statistics.

    #1155986

    Just pointing out the kind of hashkafah that leads to people not vaccinating.

    The Bergs also don’t drink Diet Pepsi. Does that mean if I don’t drink Diet Pepsi I share their hashkafos?

    #1155987

    feivel
    Participant

    Ps. I’m not an “anti-vaccer”. my kids were all vaccinated. but I am sympathetic with their point of view.

    #1155988

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I don’t have semicha and don’t want it. But *I* have been through Tanakh and the entire Bavli so I am not a complete ignoramus. The anti-vaxxers ARE ignoramuses; they make basic errors in logic that would earn them a failing grade in any epidemiology class.

    So basically I can’t have an opinion in your area unless I have a Phd, but you can have an opinion in mine because you went to a daf yomi shiur for a few years?

    Is that your position that you think I should agree to?

    #1155993

    Health
    Participant

    feivel -“but I am sympathetic with their point of view.”

    Why are you sympathetic with them?

    Or is it because of medical knowledge that causes you to disagree with mainstream medicine?!?

    #1155994

    Avi K
    Participant

    Anyone who refuse to vaccinate his kids ((except on the instructions of a doctor) is a child abuser.

    #1155995

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Anyone who has had the chicken pox vaccine can have shingles. This happened to my friend’s daughter.

    If the antivaxxers are making basic mistakes in logic, I should be able to have an opinion on their claims as long as I have common sense, even without a degree in medicine.

    Having read Tanach and Shas Bavli doesn’t necessarily qualify one to have an opinion on advanced Halachic questions any more than reading medical textbooks qualifies one to have an opinion on advanced medical questions .

    We’ve already had the anti-antivaxxer conversation enough times. It seems either incredibly stupid or narcissistic (or both) to assume that you are both more knowledgeable and more concerned with human health than all of the medical professionals and establishments in the world.

    #1155996

    mw13
    Participant

    PBA:

    Chicken pox?

    That’s the big risk of not vaccinating now? The annoying rash that everybody in the world who is over 30 got as a kid?

    Would you rather it have been smallpox?

    B”H, this wasn’t a dangerous outbreak; but why on earth should we risk outbreaks? Will it have to take a deadly outbreak CH”V to convince people to give up on this dangerous nonsense??

    Vaccine can also be dangerous for some people.

    Can you show us any evidence that there is an actual factual risk of children being negatively impacted by vaccines?

    #1155997

    catch yourself
    Participant

    As far as vaccines being dangerous for some people, anyone with a specific reason not to take a vaccine should not get that vaccine. These are exactly the people who should rely on the herd immunity provided by widespread vaccination.

    Anyone who has no specific reason to think that vaccination is more dangerous to them than the disease it is intended to prevent should weigh the cost of vaccinnating against the benefit of disease prevention.

    #1155998

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Can you show us any evidence that there is an actual factual risk of children being negatively impacted by vaccines?

    See, it’s statements like this that make me think nobody is even considering the risks.

    Yes, plenty of kids have seizures after vaccines.

    #1155999

    That’s not evidence, that’s an assertion.

    Let’s say it’s correct, though. Still, what does “plenty” mean? And what harm do these seizures cause? And, most importantly, what benefit is there to the vaccine, and is it worth the risk?

    #1156000

    MRS PLONY
    Participant

    I used to read one of the freebie Jewish magazines on Shabbos afternoon, but in the pre-Pesach issue they had this four-page anti-vaxx advertorial. I threw that issue away and I refuse to bring it into my house again. I’m not naming any names.

    It bothers me when people offer junk science to a heimishe readership; most yeshivos and day schools just don’t provide their students with a science background sufficient to make informed decisions on complex topics like this.

    The way I see it: No reputable doctor or scientist unequivocally opposes vaccines. The CDC admits that SOMETIMES there are SOME people who could have a negative reaction to an immunization. The only people who reject all vaccines under all circumstances have no serious medical background.

    #1156001

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The CDC admits that SOMETIMES there are SOME people who could have a negative reaction to an immunization.

    That’s right. But your doctor never told you that before sticking your newborn baby who is barely 2 minutes born with a vaccine against STD’s, did they?

    #1156002

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Let’s say it’s correct, though. Still, what does “plenty” mean? And what harm do these seizures cause? And, most importantly, what benefit is there to the vaccine, and is it worth the risk?

    exactly.

    #1156003

    That’s right. But your doctor never told you that before sticking your newborn baby who is barely 2 minutes born with a vaccine against STD’s, did they?

    My doctor didn’t give my kid that one.

    #1156004

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    My doctor didn’t give my kid that one.

    So you’re one of us.

    #1156005

    Anti-vaxxer? No. My kids get all the regular vaccines such as polio, MMR, etc., and even chickenpox.

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