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Avram,
Those knee-jerks would exist even if doctors were all sweetie pies with all the time and patience in the world for nudniks. Perhaps fewer. It’s still a lousy excuse to endanger the population.
PBA
“What doctor do you know who would engage on the topic?”
dozens and dozens. Both in person and online. In fact on ywn there are several such threads
I am not a pediatrician, but I have had several conversations on this forum on this subject. One went something like this
anti-vaxer: If vaccines are so safe why cant they just prove it with a study once and for all.
Me: There have been dozens here they are…
anti-vaxxer: No it needs to have x number of people
ME: heres one with those number of people
anti-vaxxer: No that was funded by a pharmaceutical company and they are suspect
ME: Here is one that wasn’t funded by companies
anti-vAXXER: but that was funded by the government they are worse than the big-pharma
ME: here is a study that wasn’t funded by government or big pharma
anti-vaxxer: That was published in a journal and journals are suspect because have advertisements from big pharma.
(I’ll dig up the thread later. OF course this isn’t a verbatim recap but it is the gist of it)
Granted Doctors don’t have these conversations with every single anti-vaxxer but it is clear that most are not interested in discussing it. Take one simple specific example (Which perhaps unfairly tarnishes the entire “movement”) namely MMR and autism. IT has been studies over and over and over and there has been no link found. The ONE study that had linked the two was found to be fraudulent. Yet most anti-vaxxer/pro-diseaseer Ive encountered even if they don’t fully embrace that flawed study still has trouble letting it go. This is not a fact based argument it is one of emotion. Of course when parents make bad decisions based on emotion in opposition to all the research on the matter it makes pediatricians upset. I’d be more concerned by a pediatrician whose response was “oh you want to put your kids and others at risk based on some flawed studies and anecdotes you read online, Gezunderheit I have no problem with that In fact lets have a measles party in my waiting room so all the kids can strengthen their immune systems and who knows maybe if we are really lucky one of them will give it to his pregnant mother”
I am not sure where you stand on MMR and autism but the bottom line is there is a greater chance that internet use causes autism (since as internet use picked up autism picked up, and unlike the MMR, to the best of my knowledge a link between the two has not been studied)
DaasYochid,
Especially the part about my kid eating a candy bar not killing your kid,
Your kid is much more likely to squash my kid at the bottom of the slide than my kid is to give yours polio. Or even the unvaccinated kids down the street.
Seriously though, you can do a blood test to check for antibodies if you’re really concerned that your kids don’t have immunity to something.
and the part that even the minority of doctors who don’t have huge egos are also upset at the anti-vaxxers.
I don’t believe I have ever asserted that a majority of doctors are bad apples. That said, the ones I have met who don’t have huge egos patiently and tirelessly explain the benefits of vaccines, actually take a minute or two to sympathize and address the parents’ fears, and are flexible to scheduling vaccines as parents feel comfortable, even recommending which ones they feel are more important and should be done asap.
Health,
Why would you presume to know what my own experience has been? And that I’d have no knowledge of others’ experiences?”
Do you know the definition of”probably”? If not, ask Feivel.
Yes I do, and my response doesn’t change. Who cares if you made a definitive statement or a probabilistic one? Why would you presume to know what my own experience has been even to state what is likely or unlikely?
What? Don’t you think that I’ve been on the other side of the fence also?!?
Sure, but you brought up your many years of experience in the medical field, not your many years of experience as a patient!
I wasn’t talking about your personal experience!
And I’m talking about elephants and butterflies. Prove me wrong!!!
You obviously didn’t begin to understand my point!
I was pointing out that the removal was for the benefit of the Anti-vaxx nuts!
Who cares if doctors give out free burritos in their offices for the benefits of “anti-vaxx” nuts? That wasn’t your point. You asserted that the “government” weakened vaccines due to pressure from anti-vaccine people. I’m asking a direct question on that statement, and deflections in response won’t work.
Here is the thread
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/things-causing-autism-jokes
Avram in MD -“I really think, however, that a large part of what we are dealing with in the recent increase of unvaccinated children is in big part due to a breakdown in doctor patient trust and communication.”
Maybe in your case it’s like that. Most Anti-vaxxers aren’t interested in having an open discussion. S/o posted previously that PCP’s aren’t interested in discussing vaccines, they already made up their minds.
This is even more true with the Anti – vaxxers!
They made up their minds long beforehand!
Health,
Perhaps he was joking?
Mishlei 26:18-19 for such a doctor.
Rigidity – I agreed to in my previous post.
This isn’t bullying! He’s being factual, even if the guy didn’t like that!
To refuse a child medical care because the parents want to delay a vaccine is not only cutting off the nose to spite the face, it is downright bullying. It was not a statement of fact, but a threat intended to shut the parents up and let the doctor do what he wanted to do right then and there.
catch yourself,
For the record (this story had actually slipped my mind), when I brought my six year old to the pediatrician for her annual checkup, the doctor asked if she sits in a booster seat in the car (required up to age 8 where we live, believe it or not).
When I responded in the negative, I was given a rather stern talking to by the doctor.
When my friend brought his obese ten year old son for a checkup, the doctor (not the same one) read both the parents and the child the riot act, and gave them, in no uncertain terms, the prognosis for his condition.
Apparently, some physicians do take these issues seriously.
Glad that some physicians do take those issues seriously, since they hit at the top of the list of causes of childhood death and disease in the U.S., but it’s too bad that the doctors in your example responded to their patients so poorly. I’m sure that ten year old feels really good about himself and his doctor now.
Health,
If the statistics change, all of a sudden, the Anti-vaxx guys aren’t going to change anything they do!
Their selfishness is going to cause harm to themselves!!!
I disagree. What happens when there is a measles outbreak? You see lines of people outside of high school gymnasiums waiting for vaccinations.
Seriously though, you can do a blood test to check for antibodies if you’re really concerned that your kids don’t have immunity to something.
What if my kid can’t tolerate the vaccine? Anyhow, it’s not specifically about my kid.
I don’t believe I have ever asserted that a majority of doctors are bad apples.
You do make it sound like that’s a very common experience.
That said, the ones I have met who don’t have huge egos patiently and tirelessly explain the benefits of vaccines, actually take a minute or two to sympathize and address the parents’ fears,
I’m glad they have the time to do that instead of treating patients. My pediatrician doesn’t. Maybe he does waste his time on this nonsense anyhow, at the expense of my kids or other patients; I don’t know.
and are flexible to scheduling vaccines as parents feel comfortable.
Yes, they should do that.
Glad that some physicians do take those issues seriously, since they hit at the top of the list of causes of childhood death and disease in the U.S., but it’s too bad that the doctors in your example responded to their patients so poorly. I’m sure that ten year old feels really good about himself and his doctor now.
Avram on a roll in this thread.
Imagine your plumber comes to the house and notices that your pipes are rusty and leaking. So he gives you a stern talking to.
lol
ubiquitin,
you missed a few steps first the plumber says…
I think you are a good example of a doctor doing his job well. Please mentor your colleagues 🙂
As I stated above, there will always be conspiracy theorists who remain unconvinced even in the face of clearly explained facts. I think they are the minority of people going into doctors offices and asking questions about vaccines. There is a cottage industry of alternative medicine businesses they can patronize and work with like-minded people.
Rather, pediatricians are by and large addressing parents who care deeply for their children and honestly want to do what is best for them. Whether there is an emotional fear (it’s never easy to hold your kid while a stranger sticks them with a needle full of cold, uncomfortable stuff that makes them cry, then swell and sometimes get a fever, and sometimes taking action with a small risk is scarier than taking no action with a small risk. etc.), a concern (hey, my kid screamed non-stop for two hours after getting 5 vaccines at the last visit, and one of the injection sites swelled up huge. I’m worried he might have had a reaction to one of the vaccines, but he got so many, there’s no way to tell which one it was), or even misinformation (I read on the Internet that…), parents deserve to be treated with kindness, compassion, patience, and included as a part of their child’s care. Not seen as an enemy to be vanquished.
Health,
S/o posted previously that PCP’s aren’t interested in discussing vaccines, they already made up their minds.
This is even more true with the Anti – vaxxers!
Ok, so while the doctors are turned away on one side with their arms folded and saying harumph, and the “anti-vaxxers” are on the other side saying harumph, there have been increasing gaps in vaccination in the middle. What’s more important, saying harumph, or trying to change things?
Imagine your plumber comes to the house and notices that your pipes are rusty and leaking. So he gives you a stern talking to.
Or your dental hygienist lecturing you about flossing.
“anti-vaxer: If vaccines are so safe why cant they just prove it with a study once and for all.
Me: There have been dozens here they are…”
I think you meant; “studies that did not find any significant side effects of vaccines.”
Not studies that prove vaccines are safe. No such studies exist.
Well, perhaps a little bit got lost in translation. “Stern talking to” and “riot act” should not be misconstrued to mean “screaming, humiliating and careless condescension.” It means that the doctors in question conveyed somberly the seriousness and magnitude of the issue at hand.
When a doctor has a relationship with her patient and the patient’s parents, she won’t need to hide the truth by sugarcoating everything. My daughter went home from the doctor’s office in a booster seat.
My friend’s son, now twelve, has lost over 30 pounds and counting.
Thanks for the correction Feivel.
Though I would like to point out that no studies have shown apples are safe.
(Also in that thread I was focusing specifically on autism)
feivel,
I think you meant; “studies that did not find any significant side effects of vaccines.”
Not studies that prove vaccines are safe. No such studies exist.
That would be an impossible requirement. What is “safe”?
“Or your dental hygienist lecturing you about flossing”.
and then proceeds to tell you she refuses to clean your teeth until you start flossing
DaasYochid,
I’m glad they have the time to do that instead of treating patients. My pediatrician doesn’t. Maybe he does waste his time on this nonsense anyhow, at the expense of my kids or other patients; I don’t know.
Or maybe your pediatrician is over-scheduling patients to the point of shortchanging them. Nobody wants to be the one waiting for over an hour past the appointment time in the biologically hazardous waiting room, but if a practice is not budgeting at minimum 10 to 15 minutes of Q&A for each patient, then they are not doing their jobs well. Or, at the very least, they can say, “this is an extremely important issue that we should discuss further. Unfortunately, we are overbooked today, so I cannot take the time needed to thoroughly respond to all of your questions in a way that I think would be most helpful. Let’s schedule a consult in a week or two…” Patient leaves happy, doc gets two fees from one patient.
and then proceeds to tell you she refuses to clean your teeth until you start flossing
I didn’t know plaque was deadly and contagious. You learn something new every day.
Avram, welcome to a world in which most physicians couldn’t make a living if they spent the amount of time with each patient that’s really needed.
“That would be an impossible requirement”
Of course. I was just correcting ubiquitous’ phrasing, which he was just a bit nonrigorous in choosing,
Because it is an important distinction which is not generally clear to most lay persons.
Hey Daas, it’s you who brought up that flawed analogy, not me.
It means that the doctors in question conveyed somberly the seriousness and magnitude of the issue at hand.
When a doctor has a relationship with her patient and the patient’s parents, she won’t need to hide the truth by sugarcoating everything‘
What happened to “visibly upset”?
This thread is a perfect example of the what I’m talking about.
You vaccinators won’t give an inch. If we were criticizing doctors for any other reason, you’d have agreed with 3/4 of what I’m saying by now. But because the topic is vaccines, the doctors are all visibly upset malachim.
Malachim they are. The malach hameves.
Hey Daas, it’s you who brought up that flawed analogy, not me.
It was you who made it flawed by taking it too far. Maybe I should have made your sweat analogy flawed by pointing out that arrogance can’t be washed away with soap.
Yes it was flawed in the way I pointed out. And flawed in the way you pointed out. You brought the analogy. I was only interested in pointing out the flaw that benefitted my argument.
I’m beginning to think popa is just stirring the pot, as per his usual cute and endearing MO.
DaasYochid,
Avram, welcome to a world in which most physicians couldn’t make a living if they spent the amount of time with each patient that’s really needed.
Understood, though it doesn’t excuse a doctor treating a patient badly. And unfortunately, the world you are welcoming me to is also a world where trust in doctors is eroding and people use the Web as a source of information.
And I didn’t take it “too far”.
An integral part of the complaint against some doctors is their refusal to see non vaccers. Any valid analogy has to have this as a component. Otherwise it is fatally flawed.
And my sweat simile was obviously not an attempt to prove ANYTHING. it wasjust an exaggerated humorous descption of arrogance.
PBA, you conflated two of my posts.
I don’t want to get into a debate over whether there really is such a thing as a perfect analogy, but I don’t think anyone would find fault with a dentist or hygienist discussing the detrimental effects of candy, or of neglecting proper dental care (as part of, not instead of, a cleaning).
I don’t consider doctors to be malachim, but they are highly educated professionals. The responsible ones (I try only to use these), though not infallible, generally endeavor to come to logical conclusions based on sound research. Their opinion should be respected more than that of people whose conclusions are based on emotions and anecdotal evidence at best. When there is near universal consensus among doctors, this magnifies exponentially the respect which should be accorded the consensus opinion.
welcome to a world in which most physicians couldn’t make a living if they spent the amount of time with each patient that’s really needed.
How to do we get to this alternative reality universe where doctors make 10 times the average salary of their clients, by not spending enough time on their work to do a decent job, and defend that if they spent another 10% as much time, and only made 9x the average salary, they wouldn’t be making a living.
Lets stay with facts. please do your research and trust…no one. Nobody has your best interest in mind.
I love this thread.
There’s still a LOT more clarification and distillation of the various shitas here which could be done, especially if some of us were PhDs in Philosophy. And although (or maybe since) each side is so certain of their arguments,
Still this is such a nice illustration of the limits of human logic.
200-300 years ago people’s,lifespans were much shorter. Many children didnt even live to adulthood.
Please explain how childhood diseases which once killed over 1/2 of children have become basically a non-event today
doctors make 10 times the average salary of their clients
Hogwash, plus they invested a while lot more time and money into their careers than the average person.
Avram in MD -“Yes I do, and my response doesn’t change. Who cares if you made a definitive statement or a probabilistic one? Why would you presume to know what my own experience has been even to state what is likely or unlikely?”
Because your posts are extremely antagonist to medical professionals!
“Sure, but you brought up your many years of experience in the medical field, not your many years of experience as a patient!”
You didn’t even read my original post! I said I’ve been in the medical field for many years. I didn’t say in what capacity.
“And I’m talking about elephants and butterflies. Prove me wrong!!!”
Huh?!? What?!?
“Who cares if doctors give out free burritos in their offices for the benefits of “anti-vaxx” nuts? That wasn’t your point. You asserted that the “government” weakened vaccines due to pressure from anti-vaccine people. I’m asking a direct question on that statement, and deflections in response won’t work”
And I responded to that! Why did the government remove Thymersal from vaccines? To please the anti-vaxx nuts. I wasn’t trying to prove that the government weakened the vaccines. This is common knowledge, whether you know it or Not!
Avram in MD -“Perhaps he was joking?
Mishlei 26:18-19 for such a doctor.”
What? You only believe in Dan L’caf Zecus for e/o else, just not for medical professionals?!?
“To refuse a child medical care because the parents want to delay a vaccine is not only cutting off the nose to spite the face, it is downright bullying. It was not a statement of fact, but a threat intended to shut the parents up and let the doctor do what he wanted to do right then and there”
No it isn’t! E/o has rules in their practice. If s/o doesn’t want to follow them, they can go elsewhere! They’re not refusing medical care to the child.
Wow. Am I really unique in that I feel that I can trust my doctors? The doctors I use really take the time to answer my questions. I was once by a practice that allotted like 2 minutes per visit to answer patient questions. I switched to a place that really takes questions seriously and takes the time to give a thoughtful answer.
ZD.
No one here has suggested that vaccines are ineffective.
Please explain how childhood diseases which once killed over 1/2 of children have become basically a non-event today
You mean like the black plague, which has no vaccine?
Or do you mean like Cholera, which also has no vaccine?
Or like dysentery?
Better sanitation.
Wow. Am I really unique in that I feel that I can trust my doctors?
No. I have great respect for and gratitude for my personal doctors and others that I know.
I believe, though, the Field of Medicine as an entity is highly competent technically but quite foolish when it comes to taking its conclusions as untouchable unchangeable Dogma, instead of premises to work with. The history of modern allopathic medicine is overflowing with very wrong premises which were absolutely irrefutable in their time, and the later physicians laughed at them. And then dogmatized their own wrong and dangerous assumptions.
I believe Arrogance is a major cause of this.
Wow. Am I really unique in that I feel that I can trust my doctors? The doctors I use really take the time to answer my questions. I was once by a practice that allotted like 2 minutes per visit to answer patient questions. I switched to a place that really takes questions seriously and takes the time to give a thoughtful answer.
Your new doctor is a lousy doctor. If (s)he was any good, she’d have too many patients to have time to answer all the patients’ questions.
These people actually took the time to EDUCATE themselves on the topic and challenge their pediatricians with appropriate questions. Despite their hard work and effort, they are battling a society of people that never took the time to learn all the facts.
Every story has two sides. Learn both sides before you start forming biased opinions.
PBA -“But because the topic is vaccines, the doctors are all visibly upset malachim.”
What you obviously don’t understand – is the concept of the benefits outweighs the risks! Sure there are risks involved in getting vaccines, most probably even deaths. I personally haven’t seen any, but then again I don’t work in peds.
“Malachim they are. The malach hameves.”
They are his Shlichim! As a matter of fact, what I’ve seen is that the more popular you are – the more negligent deaths are caused by you!
Medical school does not designate to vaccines the appropriate time it actually deserves. Doctors do not study vaccines in great detail in medical school. It’s a shame.
Unless a doctor took the time to do his/her own research, they are not very knowledgeable on the topic. That is an important fact to bare in mind.
Not too long ago I personally questioned a pediatrician on one of the routine vaccines. (This is a very experienced pediatrician, practicing for over 20 years, his diagnosis are always on target).
His response was “Did you go to medical school?!?! I sat through all those years of medical school, so why do you think you know better than me!”
My translation: You don’t have an answer to my question. To avoid answering you are becoming defensive and making me feel uncomfortable challenging/questioning your medical authority. You are also discouraging me from asking questions in the future.
That was the last time I saw that doctor.
Jam -“Medical school does not designate to vaccines the appropriate time it actually deserves. Doctors do not study vaccines in great detail in medical school. It’s a shame.”
I got news for you – they don’t study anything that needs a lot of time, which is most medical subjects!
As it is, they don’t make enough money to practice & you want to increase their schooling?
Are you offering to subsidize medical schooling?
“Unless a doctor took the time to do his/her own research, they are not very knowledgeable on the topic. That is an important fact to bare in mind.”
I’d change your comment a little bit – Unless a medical professional took the time to do his/her own research, they are not very knowledgeable on ANY topic. That is an important fact to bare in mind.
“Not too long ago I personally questioned a pediatrician on one of the routine vaccines. (This is a very experienced pediatrician, practicing for over 20 years, his diagnosis are always on target).
His response was “Did you go to medical school?!?! I sat through all those years of medical school, so why do you think you know better than me!”
“My translation: You don’t have an answer to my question. To avoid answering you are becoming defensive and making me feel uncomfortable challenging/questioning your medical authority. You are also discouraging me from asking questions in the future.”
Your interpretation is correct!
“That was the last time I saw that doctor”
I got news for you – Good luck on finding a better one!
Measeles was a huge killer of Children
Mumps was frequently Fatal
Polio crippled many people forever
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