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oomis – that reminds me of a funny story. A rav once told me “the best shadchan is Brooklyn college” and explained with the following story: a young couple came to speak with him. The girl was chabbad and boy skver (could be the opposite, may have mixed it up). He openly asked them – like hello? how in the world did this shidduch become? they answered – brooklyn college. Now obviously i don’t think your typical skvere chassid is in Brooklyn college, and it is hashgacha and all, but i would never ever ever encourage such a way of dating. Aside from the tznius aspect, what do you know about them? do you really know about their families, if the parents have shalom bayis, any health issues… i don’t know, some traumas that people experience don’t come out until later in life, after marriage. I would really be scared. Glad it worked for you though.
… I’m going to do so anyway, just without using actual “M” word.
Philosopher,
I was thinking about this post last night and it was wrong of me to make my point in this fashion. I still feel your post was off-base, but a snide, sarcastic comeback by me was not called for either.
My apologies.
The Wolf
oomis,
may i counter that i wouldn’t be suprised if the women had a hand in the men’s bittul torah (or really lack of kavod torah), if the women were mechashev it the men would follow
“Aside from the tznius aspect, what do you know about them? do you really know about their families, if the parents have shalom bayis, any health issues”
I hate to break this news to you (and btw, thank you SDHN for that cute story and the last sentence of your post 🙂 which was nice) , but there is absolutely nothing untzniusdig in talking to a classmate and ebcoming friends UNLESS one is talking about untzniusdig things. Talking about what you heard in class, going for a cup of coffee together, etc., is a great way to get to know someone in a totally non-stressful and non-threatening way (as opposed to shidduch dating which is FRAUGHT with tension and nervousness for the average person).
Also (and this is even more controversial), as much checking as is done, does not reveal family secrets, health issues, shalom bayis issues, etc. for way too many people. These are things that are often kept hidden, and are not discovered until well after the fact. I know someone whose engagement broke off the week it was made, because something came to light by accident. This was right after the vort.
You get to know a person when you see them in a comfortable environment on a regular basis. If for one second the people who have been conditioned to believe that this is a bad thing, would stop to realize that SO many ehrliche frum learned people came out of that same environment, from shidduchim made in that “den of iniquity” you tend to think college is, they might be able to recognize that EVERYTHING in life has a potential for good or bad. Getting educated is important. Meeting your bashert while doing so, is icing on the (wedding) cake.
Oomis, Rav Moshe paskened in IM that its assur min haTorah for boys and girls to be “friends”.
Also, if you check out the shidduch after an emotional relationship has been established it may be difficult or almost impossible to break even if there is something nefarious in his/her background.
Wolf, no need to apologize, but it was nice of you to do so anyway. Sometimes what we want to say comes out sounding more sarcastic than we intended it to. I didn’t take it as an insult.
But in any case, you are right and I do want to aplogize for my words “an entire group who call themselves Orthodox”. I’m sorry for that. Below is my revised paragraph. Please do not take it as an insult of an entire group and if you fell what I’m saying is not the truth, then we can discuss this. But this is what I see and know is happening.
I don’t want to talk against people who call themselves Orthodox, but what sometimes goes on in circles where boys and girls freely meet, I cannot begin to tell you. Nor do I have to. I’m sure you know yourself what goes on.
I am not indicating whom I was talking about. All I am saying is that in circles where girls and boys freely meet bad things happen.
I personally have nothing against MO’s in general. As I have mentioned in another thread, there is a Young Isreal shul in my area and the people who daven there and they are very nice and frum. I’m impressed by their sincerity, derech eretz, and freindliness. Sometimes I don’t understand why some frum people call themselves MO’s because there are so many variations of MO’s. At one end of the spectrum there are very frum people and at the other end of there are people who clearly violate halacha or Mesorah and purport their hashkafas to be the true ones.
And the fact is, that teens and young adults who meet informaly, VERY OFTEN do behave in a fashion and sometimes even worse fashion than kids from Chariedi families who are called kids at risk. In such settings it is very easy to violate halacha.
Very true philosopher. In those circles what goes on is unfortunately considered normal, whereas by chareidim they would be considered at risk and helped as such.
oomis, what you are saying sounds all nice and dandy, but in the reality that we live in today it is not like that.
For every few nice couples that meet like this there is one that were either a couple before they got married (not saying in the end they did get married) OR AT LEAST violated the halacha in different ways, such as touching each other.
In addition, there is plenty of heartbreak with your approach as well.
Sometimes I don’t understand why some frum people call themselves MO’s because there are so many variations of MO’s. At one end of the spectrum there are very frum people and at the other end of there are people who clearly violate halacha or Mesorah and purport their hashkafas to be the true ones.
Because you (and many others) use the word “modern” to mean “less committed to a life of Torah and Mitzvos” which is an appalling way of using it.
The Wolf
wolf:
Im curious to hear how you would explain the use of the word “modern”
It seems to me, to mean the current general culture of the civilized world or western world or american world.
how would you explain the meaning of the adjective as used by the MO?
the usual and basic meaning of “modern” means “as opposed to older ways”.
Perhaps that’s how it is properly used?
Wolf, People who engage in mixed swimming, when challanged, excuse it since they are “MO.” So they themselves use MO to justify being less commited to Torah and mitzvos.
philosopher:
I’m not going to put this the right way, but….
It was a very different time then (Kosher King!), not only in the practice of Tznius, but in the lessened hypersensitivity of men towards women.
It was possible for guys to talk to girls L’Toeles and not sin without strict rules of the shidduch date. That is not possible with the separated-gender society we have today. The Agudah was known to have a mixed picnic for men to meet ladies in the 50’s, because it was L’Toeles.
Not to say that one should stam “shmooze” with a girl (for a boy). But “L’Toeles” was much less formalized. And one should know themselves.
Now as well, once a boy and girl who are unmarried get older and have been in the workforce for some time, the opposite gender loses the “hypersensitivity” of needing to sin when a boy sees a girl. At that point one can loosen the “rules” of shidduch dating (take that as you will).
Wolf, People who engage in Gezel, when challenged, excuse it since they are “Yeshivish.” So they themselves use Yeshivish to justify being less commited to Torah and mitzvos.
(Had to fix typo)
Not to disagree with the point, but Philosopher/Clearheaded has it right here. MO, just like anything else, runs the gamut.
Okay, I’ll tell you what it means:
I has nothing to do with lack of commitment to Halachah.
It means they wish to partake in the manner of dress and entertainments of the goyim. (within Halachah of course). harmless things: sports, tv, movies, magazines, novels, blue jeans, baseball caps, sneakers. all within reason and all in no contradiction to Torah Principles.
how would you explain the meaning of the adjective as used by the MO?
That’s a good question. Truth to tell, since I don’t really self-identify with Modern Orthodoxy, I don’t know that I can properly answer that question. But I know that the way it is used (pejoratively, as I described above) is just wrong.
Since I know someone is going to ask what group I do self-identify with, I’ll spare you the trouble. I don’t self-identify with any group. I share certain ideologies with the “yeshivish” movement, some with what is identified as “MO” and possibly even some with the chassidic world. In short, I don’t subscribe to the entire ideology of any one group and so I don’t self-identify with any one group.
Here’s a condensed version of something I wrote on the subject back in 2007. Re-reading it today, three years later, it holds just as true as it did then.
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Eeees and I recently attended a Bar Mitzvah. Over the last two years, we have become friendly with the family, had them over to our house for meals, invited them to our son’s Bar Mitzvah and now attended the Bar Mitzvah of their oldest son.
This Bar Mitzvah was not like the Bar Mitzvah that we had for our son. We had separate seating, they had mixed seating. All of our music was Jewish, theirs had quite a few modern tunes. Ours had a mechitza for dancing, theirs didn’t. At theirs, the DJ gave away a giant blowup Simpson’s couch to the best dancers (thank God our kids didn’t come away with that – they were orange! 🙂 ). We didn’t have a DJ or prizes. But that’s fine… no one has to do things our way, or their way.
During the festivities, Eeees and I talked about how our Bar Mitzvah was different from this and concluded that this type of affair was not one that we would have. If we had Walter’s Bar Mitzvah to do over again, we would probably do it the same way again. Aside from the separate seating (which we did for other reasons), we preferred the way we did it to the way this Bar Mitzvah went. That’s not to say that this Bar Mitzvah wasn’t good… we had a great time, and loved being present to help celebrate our friend’s simcha. It’s just not the way we would do it… but that’s fine – as I said above, two people don’t have to celebrate the same simcha the same way.
One of the things that we talked about at the affair was how we seem to be somewhere in-between several different mehalchim (paths). We’re not Yeshivish, yet I wouldn’t say that we’re really Modern Orthodox either. This past Shabbos we ate with a family who could be described as Yeshivish, maybe even Chareidi-like… and we were comfortable and had a great time. At the same time, we are also comfortable with our friends who just had the Bar Mitzvah, and they are clearly Modern-Orthodox and have a good time with them as well. We daven in a shul that could be described as Yeshivish, but yet has many people who are not in the Yeshivish mold. I don’t wear a hat, nor do I cover my head with my tallis, and yet I am the regular ba’al kriah there and sometime ba’al tefillah as well. We hang around with people who are to the “right” of us and the “left” of us. So, where do we fit? What’s our “label?” With which community to we belong? That was the question that Eeees asked me yesterday.
I responded to her that you don’t have to buy the whole package from any one group. You can take some elements that you like from the Yeshivish mehalech, and some elements from the Modern Orthodox mehalech and some elements from other mehalchim and synthesize them into your own mehalech. There is no one, I told her (apart from some Chareidim) that say that you have to take the entire package of any one group and live by it. Feel free to borrow from here or from there. Sure, you may not end up fitting neatly into one of the “labels” but who cares? People don’t (or shouldn’t) live their lives to fit into a label — they should live their lives according to the values, ideals and mores that they hold dear and wish to live by. And that’s actually how we’ve been living our lives for the last sixteen years, taking a bit from here and a bit from there to form our own whole. Maybe we should start a new mehalech called “Wolfish?”
It’s very interesting living in-between the different communities. We have a television in our house (and yes, it’s in the living room — not hidden away in our bedroom or in a closet). We go out to movies. I’m a firm believer in higher education (read: college) and critical thinking. I’m a firm believer in encouraging children to ask questions, not stifling them. If you’re a regular reader of my blog, then you know my position on many matters regarding Judaism today. I’m very open about who I am and what I believe.
And yet, Eeees covers her hair — not because of societal pressure, but because she believes that it’s the right thing to do. I learn every day, not because I think it’s an interesting intellectual pursuit or because I think that the learning police are going to catch me if I don’t — I do it because I think it’s the right thing to do. I don’t have secular music at a seudas mitzvah not because I don’t like secular music, but because I think that, for me, it doesn’t have a place at a seudas mitzvah. I monitor which television shows my kids watch, what movies they see and what internet sites they visit, because I think it’s the right thing to do. (As an aside, George won a Simpsons blow up doll by the Bar Mitzvah. The DJ asked him who he likes better, Bart or Homer. Eeees and I were laughing because we knew that he had no idea who either of them were — we don’t let our twelve year old watch The Simpsons.) We have some definite ideas about what is considered tznius and how a young girl should act. We have rules on how we feel that our sons, as B’nei Torah should act, both in the Bein Adam LaMakom and Bein Adam L’Chaveiro categories. We have standards of kashrus that the kids know that they can’t eat in certain places, even if they are labeled as kosher.
So, we’re neither here nor there. But you know what? I’m happy that way.
The Wolf
Wolf, People who engage in mixed swimming, when challanged, excuse it since they are “MO.” So they themselves use MO to justify being less commited to Torah and mitzvos.
And some Chareidim who steal, when challenged, excuse it because the money is going to mosdos. So they themselves use their Chareidi beliefs to justify their theft.
Like that? I didn’t think so. I don’t believe it to be true either.
The point is that just because some people of a group use the ideology of the group to justify their actions, that does not necessarily mean the group or its ideas are corrupt.
The Wolf (who, BTW, has gone “mixed swimming” — alone with his wife).
People consider themselves normal so anyone not as “frum” as them is modern and anyone more “frum” than them is too yeshivish. Like everything else everyone uses it from their perspective.
There is a difference though between Modern ORTHODOX where they’ll wear jeans, watch TV etc. and still keep halacha. As supposed to MODERN Orthodox where they keep certain mitzvos or aspects (like they won’t drive on Shabbos but they’ll watch TV).
And back to the OP why should their be a problem if the girls behave and act with tznius? Why can’t they enjoy the fresh air too?
But I know that the way it is used (pejoratively, as I described above) is just wrong.
Something pejorative is not necessarily wrong.
Because an idea makes us nervous or feel bad doesn’t make it wrong.
Mod,
It must be very confusing for readers when you quote from my posts and respond to them before other people can even see them.
The Wolf
that’s true, but im used to a certain ubiquitous moderator, who happens to be absent today, who approves posts rapid-fire,every minute or so..80
And before anyone asks… no, my sons aren’t named “Walter” or “George.” The names on their birth certificates are their Hebrew names — the only names they have (aside, of course, from their surnames).
The Wolf
(I think my original post got lost in the thread)
philosopher/clearheaded:
I’m not going to put this the right way, but….
It was a very different time then (Kosher King!), not only in the practice of Tznius, but in the lessened hypersensitivity of men towards women.
It was possible for guys to talk to girls L’Toeles and not sin without strict rules of the shidduch date. That is not possible with the separated-gender society we have today. The Agudah was known to have a mixed picnic for men to meet ladies in the 50’s, because it was L’Toeles.
Not to say that one should stam “shmooze” with a girl (for a boy). But “L’Toeles” was much less formalized. And one should know themselves.
Now as well, once a boy and girl who are unmarried get older and have been in the workforce for some time, the opposite gender loses the “hypersensitivity” of needing to sin when a boy sees a girl. At that point one can loosen the “rules” of shidduch dating (take that as you will).
Wolf got my second point with the Gezel.
And I highly recommend mixed swimming (with wife). It was a regular night activity during the early part of our (Ittisa & I) marriage.
Wolf, you don’t have to agree with me, but I think the frum world would classify you as MO because of the TV in your living room and other things about your lifestyle.
Again, you don’t need to agree with me or anyone else who would label you MO, but that’s how I see it.
If we want to break things down to small particles, we can do that with everyone, and everyone has a little bit from here or there. But the labes MO, Yeshivish, Chasidish etc. does loosely describe the persons hashkofos.
For example, I am Chassidish. Now if I’m going to analyze where my hashkofos fit into the Chassidishe world, I may end up only a bit Chassidish. For example, I drive and most Chassidishe women don’t drive. Does that make a bit Yeshivish? Although my husband is a Chassid of a Rebbe, me personally, I call myself a Chossid of the Aibishter. Basically, while Rebbes are surely tzaddikim, I’m not particularly enamored of anyone (my husband doesn’t like this to be sure, he thinks I should feel his Rebbe is … THE REBBE), but that’s what it is. While I like the Chassidishe way with men going to Rebbes and tishen for my husband and son, personally I would never care to go to a Rebbe’s tish, or be become a “heisa” (hot) Chassid of a Rebbe. Does my not being enamored of any Rebbe make me Litvish? I don’t think so! Everyone including myself, would still describe me as Chassidish. My first language is Yiddish, my husband wears a shtreimel, my son has longer peyos than the Yeshivishe do, etc.
We are ALL entirely different individualy, but still people in general, basically will fit into a specific category as well.
Mod 80 – “harmless things: sports, tv, movies, magazines, novels, blue jeans, baseball caps, sneakers” hat to break it to you but tv, magazines, goyish novels, (many times “harmlessly include love incidents) ARE HARMFUL.
OOMIS- you are entitled to your opinion and you can encourage people to meet or unofficially meet their prospective shidduchim in college/such type of places. Many are opposed to that, and yes there are pitfalls to the “yeshivish ” way of dating, where parents try to do as much research and everything beforehand. But don’t tell me that unofficial friendly dating is foolproof, in this area (aside from tznius,) there still is a much greater maala.
Mod 80 – “harmless things: sports, tv, movies, magazines, novels, blue jeans, baseball caps, sneakers” hat to break it to you but tv, magazines, goyish novels, (many times “harmlessly include love incidents) ARE HARMFUL.
most certainly sof. i was trying to state their perspective hoping the foolishness of it would be obvious. no sane person would open the sewer main to empty into his living room, much less his head.
not to mention that we are a Holy Nation, set apart from the nations, we thank Hashem in Havdalah and many other occasions for separating us from the nations. and as was prophesied, whenever we begin to go lost to within the nations, Hashem increases their hatred of us to form a barrier, if we wont make our own barrier. many see the Holocaust as a result of the large masses of Jews embracing reform and assimilation, and making berlin the “new Jerusalem”.
Wolf, you don’t have to agree with me, but I think the frum world would classify you as MO because of the TV in your living room and other things about your lifestyle.
Again, you don’t need to agree with me or anyone else who would label you MO, but that’s how I see it.
You’re right, of course. I don’t have to agree with you. 🙂
There are those who would also call me downright OTD. I don’t have to agree with them either.
In short, I reject any and all ways that people try to put me “in the box” of any particular hashkafah, because I don’t belong to any one hashkafah. Certainly parts of my hashkafah is influenced by some elements of MO (whatever, exactly, that means) but I am also influenced by and have adopted elements of the hashkafah of other groups as well.
The Wolf
Clearheaded:
But where do you put the Chassidim that have TV’s?
Rav Moshe used the term “Yeraim”. I try to use it as well.
There are those who fear Hashem, and those who don’t.
gavra, where do you see my opinion contradicting yours?
Modern Orthodoxy is a haskafa. In practice, MO people run the gamut. So do Yeshivish people. So do Chassidish people.
I am MO and proud of it.
In short, I reject any and all ways that people try to put me “in the box” …
Wolf, I would never put you in the box because I wouldn’t know where to find a box large enough for an adult to fit in. 😉
You can categorize me or put me into any kind of “box” you would like.
Gittin Tzadik Amud Alef
Take a look at the case of Pappas ben Yehuda who kept his wife locked up all the time, and what happened because of that.
The Gemara advises a reasonable middle course for most people, not being comfortable with obscene behavior, but not going to extremes either.
Extremes of either side are dangerous.
If you crack down on teenagers, boys or girls, too much, they may start doing much worse things behind your back. Allowing them a reasonable amount of freedom for permitted things is healthier.
We don’t have a Tznius crisis. We have a common sense crisis.
You can categorize me or put me into any kind of “box” you would like.
OK, I hereby categorize you as evenly divisible by 1, 2, 4, 5, 8, 10, 16, 20, 40 and 80.
The Wolf
Mod 80-
I happen to be one of those people who does not find the “foolishness” of those things “obvious”.
I daven with minyan three times a day, and I am koveiah itim l’Torah. I am mikayim as many of the taryag mitzvos as I possibly can.
But I find sports, tv, clean movies, and newsmagazines to be some of the few things I enjoy and help me relax (I am not “into” sneakers and jeans).
I wear a knitted yarmulka, so that combined with all the other “foolishness” that I engage in, I suppose makes me MO. You know what? I am perfectly comfortable that HKB”H is okay with it.
No Yeshivish guy ever excused gezel as being okay “because I’m Yeshivish”, unlike some MO who excuse their breach of halachos “because I’m MO.” (See my example above.)
Both adherents have sinned, but only one institutionalized sinning as okay under their banner of Judaism.
you dont have to explain yourself to me yanky. you be whatever you want.
When you ask a bungalow colony why they have mixed swimming, they’ll often excuse it “since we’re a MO colony.” You will not find Yeshivishe thieves establish Congregation Anshei Embezllers. Both examples are of sinners, but only one established sinning as acceptable and justified it under Judaism.
We know Jews arent perfect and do sin, but the Torah is perfect and we dont change the Torah and Judaism to accomodate.
Helpful,if I am understanding you correctly, you are equating GEZEL with watching tv and reading news magazines. Please. Do you honestly not see the difference? A Yeshivah boy who would commit a gezel, is in no way comparable to a MO boy who watches tv.
“We don’t have a Tznius crisis. We have a common sense crisis. “
Beautiful.
“Wolf, I would never put you in the box because I wouldn’t know where to find a box large enough for an adult to fit in. 😉 “
As we are all destined to end up in a box after 120 years, it behooves us to try to all be more tolerant and accepting of Jews whose hashkofos might differ from our own, than some of us seem to be.
where does this “common” sense come from? common to whom?
Common sense comes from our general environment. And it changes as the seasons. That abortion was a heinous crime was once common sense. That relations between man and man was disgusting and abhorrent was once common sense.
only the eternal Torah can be our guide.
As we may all end up in a box after many years it behooves us to follow the will of our Creator and final Judge, whatever that may be.
Whether that necessitates acceptance of every Jews mahalach, or whether it necessitates speaking out against certain behaviors, it should be determined by what our Gedolim and Poskim tell us, not by what feels good and sounds nice and friendly.
aries2756-I think I still don’t understand you. I asked why we’re blaming the girls and you answered to remind us why we have to cry and fast on tisha b’av. Is that not correct?
Mischiefmaker, I’m not blaming the girls! I am saying that we should stop judging everyone and show more ahavas yisroel, that is why we still cry and fast on Tisha B’av, because of our lack of ahavas yisroel and our involvement of sinas chinam!
BTW, for all the talk of tznius on this thread and the other, and for the halachic discussions of what we may do and not; for all the discussions of what is proper or not, please understand that this IS a mixed chat room! We are all talking to MEN and WOMEN here. How tzniusdik and proper is that??????
Aries: BINGO!
It’s why I’ve been trying to limit my time on CR and you know some of these threads that should clearly be women only? I don’t even go there.
And I’ve commented before about sanctimony on the internet. I can only assume that some people feel that there is a higher good in their being here to be able to set people straight. Otherwise I can’t imagine how they got a heter.
I am perfectly comfortable that HKB”H is okay with it.
How does TV, which spews forth immorality and indecency down the toobs fit into what Hashem is asking from those who fear and love Him, that we be a HOLY nation?
Men in particular, even more than women, have stringent halachas on what they are allowed to gaze at and what not.
As we are all destined to end up in a box after 120 years, it behooves us to try to all be more tolerant and accepting of Jews whose hashkofos might differ from our own, than some of us seem to be.
Nobody should have a problem accepting different hashkofos, but we should not have to agree with opinions that are clearly against halacha.
It’s why I’ve been trying to limit my time on CR and you know some of these threads that should clearly be women only?
The person who opened this thread is clearly a male and he should have the option of airing out his complaint. I see nothing wrong with that and with women and men putting forth their point of views. Maybe the that person learnt something, maybe each of us learnt something from this thread. Which is as it should be. We don’t have to become staid unthinking dummies.
Do you know that in the Torah there are plenty of things that pertain to women only and men learn about that?
On this site no one knows who we are so there is not tarivas, and I think it is the proper venue to air out problems and opinions.
koachshticka, I totaly agree with your post, accept the last line, as common sense is not defineable.
Each of us have different common sense, so therefore we need to follow halacha.
Halacha does NOT forbid women from going out when they need to. Halahca DOES forbid tarivos and untznius action and dress.
aries, (and tzippy too i guess)
no one hears sees or hears the other person for all you know it could be someone else writing
i for sure don’t see a problem in the regard of mixed talking
(remember the chachamim said Kol b’eisha ervah, not the writing of an eisha)
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