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I am asking a serious question here, who do you think would give a heter for men and women to “discuss” halachik issues or any issues for that matter in a chat room on the internet.
Which RAV would consider that tzniusdik?
Which RAV would consider that OK, even if you do?
Which RAV would say that is OK, but girls congregating outside is not OK?
YOU are giving YOURSELVES hetering to do what YOU choose to do without ASKING your RAV if it is proper or not because YOU choose to do it and YOU don’t see anything wrong with it. Well in honesty that is a little hypocritical. If you believe in checking with Daas Torah then you should check with Daas Torah if it is proper to discuss such issues in mixed company whether you see them or hear them. Or even if you should be chatting in mixed company at all even though it is anonymous. I doubt if any RAV would allow it and I doubt if any RAV would give a heter for it. The only Heter I can see is if there is a website for Sheilos and anyone can write it to a Rav or a Rabbinic organization for answers.
aries-thanx for clarifying.
But, what you said about men and women in the cr-isn’t that why we have moderators? Yeah, sometimes they’re strict about what we say but that’s what they’re there for! Everyone-men and women are entitled to post on the cr!
Trying to be quiet here, and really this is my yetzer hora talking, so yeah, I know I gotta work on that.
BUT TALK ABOUT HYPOCRITICAL, MAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
aries, What about chatting with non-relative opposite gender ppl at your home? Or Shabbos table? That’s even worse than the CR since there it is non-anonymous and in person!
Aries, why do you assume it’s okay for you to have been posting all that you did about men and women (especially about women on vacation) and then you say that you doubt a Rav would give a heter for it?
I’m not the one who keeps assuring everyone, evrything or judging everyone! I am not the one who keeps asking about who gave whom hetering! I am not the one who keeps saying how everyone has sunk to the worst level or the worst madreigah! I am not the one who keeps quoting Rabbonim or halacha! I am not the one who keeps pointing out the worst in everyone.
I have no problem talking to anyone face to face, here or anywhere else. But then again I don’t have a problem if girls walk and talk outside, or if they wear trendy clothes, or if they date during the nine days, or if a boy shaves for a date, or if a boy and girl talk during a beshow, or if a girl goes to college and if men go to work and women raise their own children, or if kids or couples go to therapy.
okay, aries, I hear you and I get your point. But I don’t think anyone in the CR goes to every thread you mentioned, and puts in their two cents in a judging type of way. Everyone is judgemental in their way, and soemtimes they make a good point even if it’s a negative point. I personally have agreed with some of the things you said even if it was judgemental.
This is a nice forum to discuss issues, (a big thank you for the moderators) and I think we can all learn from each other.
“Also, if you check out the shidduch after an emotional relationship has been established it may be difficult or almost impossible to break even if there is something nefarious in his/her background. “
If there is something nefarious in HIS background, the shidduch is oys,and my daughters themselves would say so. If it is something in his FAMILY background, that is not so glatt. A fine boy should not be punished because he has an uncle who stole money, or his parents are amei haaretz.
“I am not indicating whom I was talking about. All I am saying is that in circles where girls and boys freely meet bad things happen. “
And you know this how, exactly? What circles of boys and girls have you moved about in freely? I have myself been in such circles, and my daughters go to singles weekends in such circles, and NOTHING bad ore ven remotely bad has EVER happened, and it is kind of loshon hara for anyone to say differently with no basis, just because their own hashkafa does not hold by this. Yes, SOME mixed groups of kids MIGHT have a problem (they would under any cicrumstance), but modern Yeshivish kids know proper behavior and are very respectful of frum boundaries.
philosopher: I wasn’t necessarily referring to this thread.
mbachur: Honestly, I don’t for the most part have issues with mixed discussion on line. Just seems weird to do it on certain sites. I don’t know if I can say it better than aries just did.
Philosopher-
The answer to your question to me about TV is very simple. It is all about choices. The same way you are sitting at a computer and can choose to view MUCH WORSE things than what is on TV, I choose to watch channels/programs that I have no doubt are compatible with being a shomer Torah umitzvos.
There is nothing wrong with the things I watch such as sports, nature, history, science and news.
“In addition, there is plenty of heartbreak with your approach as well. “
There is plenty of heartbreak potential in all shidduchim, no matter how they are made. My friend’s Yeshivah bochur who went through the very yeshivish shidduch process including checking out to death, going back and forth through the shadchan until a certain number date and so forth, then having the parents hash out the support issues, ended up with a broken engagement within two days of the vort. Anybody can have a broken heart. It has nothing to do with how they met the person.
Also, I want to address someone’s comment that a MODERN Orthodox person would watch tv on Shabbos. WHAAAAAAAAT!!!!!????????!!!! No one whose hashkafa is Orthodox in any form would do that. If they did that that would make them NOT Orthodox.
I am MO. I cover my hair, wear clothing that covers my elbows, clavicle, and well below my knees even when sitting down. I kept Taharas Hamishpacha all the years that I was privileged to do so, keep Shabbos, keep strictly 100% kosher (I drink Cholov Stam as well as Cholov Yisroel), am mafrishas challah when I bake it, daven every day, learn with my children and go to shiurim every week. I also: watch TV, go to movies, believe it is perfectly ok to speak to men in social settings, especially when my husband is present,try to dress somewhat fashionably (though mny kids think I am hopeless), encourage all my children to be friendly and courteous to people of both genders and look them in the eye when talking to them, and try to get them out of the narrow box that so many people are in when it comes to doing chessed. They will do chessed for ANYONE, not just for a specific type of frum yid. I made sure they went to college and became educated and prepared to work in the secular world, because that is where most of the jobs are. Above all, we try to be non-judgmental, and all though that seems to be a pejorative expression here to some people,I believe that this is one fo the middos that Hashem wants of us.
oomis – c’mon, are you ch”v blind? you don’t see the problems that develop in such circles where “singles” events, or whatever are? give me a break! Unfortunately i myself know of a few, that ended up … well lets just say NOT VERY GOOD
oomis: You completely missed the point. Once an emotional relationship has been established between boy and girl, without doing the research before they met, if something comes up in the research that SHOULD make the shidduch untenable — for whatever reason (the reason isn’t the point) — due to the fact that the emotional relationship was already established it may be too late to break it off even though it should.
aries,
I have to mention again,
i for sure don’t think i’m talking to a man/woman when i’m “chatting” i think i’m talking tro a person,
if this was a webchat confrence that would be totally different
in other words you could be a yeshiva bachur or even a rav for all i care i’m just dealing with what you are saying (not the person who is sending it)
mbachur, I understand what YOU are saying and I don’t care either way. My point is for all those who are so harsh on others and throw the “RAV” or “HETER” or “HALACHA” card around, there is no heter for men and women to have such an exchange and discussion even though we are faceless and nameless. I doubt that if every husband and wife were to peak in to some of the very heated discussions that THEY would approve either. That’s all I’m saying. Its fine for me because I would talk to you face to face. I don’t need anyone to justify themselves to me. I was making a point that people do what they choose to do and find justification for themselves. However, when others do something that THEY don’t approve of they come down on them very harshly.
oomis – that’s why I said there’s a difference. I have friends who are MO and they are Shomer Shabbos and everything. But I also know people who, I guess you wouldn’t call them frum then, that won’t drive but watch TV. It’s the sad truth. What would you call them?
I do NOT think that’s normal for regular MO people.
And from the way you describe yourself, I wouldn’t consider you MO from the way you just described yourself. I would consider you normal. So labels are all a matter of perspective.
“Unfortunately i myself know of a few, that ended up … well lets just say NOT VERY GOOD “
I guess you go to very different events than my kids do.
Max Well – I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I don’t think it is very wise for any boy and girl to be making such a strong emotional investment after only one or two dates (at which time, parents who see the potential relationship beginning to develop can make their inquiries). If something comes up at this time that raises red flags, it is very early on. The same red flags can occur in the shidduch method where checking was done prior to going forward with setting the couple up. People who want to hide things are very good at doing so until they can no longer be kept secret. Sometimes, the couple finds these things out AFTER the wedding R”L, when it REALLY is too late, and the result is far worse heartbreak when a GET needs to be given. That can happen to ANYONE, regardless of how they met each other. Just look at the soaring divorce rate among the present generation of young marrieds, some as soon as three months after the wedding.
BTW, Max well, risking heartbreak is one of the risks we have to take in life, because one just might achieve SIMCHA and not heartbreak. Tzaar is a part of life, unfortunately, but if you never take the step, you risk losing out on joy, too.
Sister Bear, I would call them “sitting on the fence”. Either they are on their way up and not quite there yet, or on their way down and need support to stay up.
And you know this how, exactly?
How would I know this? Like I know a lot of things. Open your eyes and you’ll see as well.
What circles of boys and girls have you moved about in freely? I have myself been in such circles, and my daughters go to singles weekends in such circles, and NOTHING bad ore ven remotely bad has EVER happened,
I’m sure you transmitted your values to your children and also you’ve had much siyatta dishmaya and everything worked out great.
…and it is kind of loshon hara for anyone to say differently with no basis, just because their own hashkafa does not hold by this. Yes, SOME mixed groups of kids MIGHT have a problem (they would under any cicrumstance), but modern Yeshivish kids know proper behavior and are very respectful of frum boundaries.
Not everything that you disagree with is l”h. I have not named any group, and the only “sin” I did was the first time around I did write the word “group”. And btw, if there were no problems within that group why did people assume I spoke about MO? People made the assumption on their own. But in any case, they were right I shouldn’t have written the word “group”.
There is plenty of heartbreak potential in all shidduchim, no matter how they are made
I didn’t say otherwise. I only wanted to point out that it’s not all fine and dandy your way either.
Again, MO is a philosophy. The same way Chassidus is a philosophy. Oomis is 100% MO [I’m assuming Oomis believes in the Torah UMada philosophy].
I know yeshivish people who don’t daven everyday and MO people who learn constantly. I know Chassidish people who violate halacha and MO people who would never dare. [And vice versa to all those]
Someone who calls themselves MO and watches TV on shabbos is just breaking halacha. They are not doing so because they are MO, they are doing so because they are breaking halacha. They may be using it as an excuse. That’s it. I’ve never heard of a MO Rabbi who says its ok to watch TV (or go mixed swimming in a bathing suit or other things).
Each community has unique problems.
“I’m assuming Oomis believes in the Torah UMada philosophy].”
Correct.
“I’m sure you transmitted your values to your children and also you’ve had much siyatta dishmaya and everything worked out great.”
My husband and I together have transmitted OUR values and our parents’ values (and his were not even frum, but they were amazing people, baalei chessed and both sets of grandparents o”h were incredible role models). Our kids are well-known in our neighborhood and elsewhere, for being especially kind, sensitive, and thoughtful people with excellent middos and integrity. S”D is a large part of all of our lives, but the basic structure has to be there first, to ensure that our kids do the right thing at ALL times.
“People made the assumption on their own. But in any case, they were right I shouldn’t have written the word “group”.”
That’s because we are discussing MO people. Is there any other group to which you assign this “problem?” And while it is true that it isn;t all fine and dandy “my way” either, that’s because it is a part of life for people to suffer heartbreak at one time or another. NOTHING can prevent it 100% of the time, no matter who you are. Aharon Hakohein lost two sons on the same day. Would you doubt that they were tzaddikim or that he was suffering terribly (in spite of remaining silent)? No one is immune from experiencing sadness.
I am confused. I was under the impression that the MO community was defined more by the non-sheitel wearing, pants wearing, kipah serugah, mixed swimming community. I never heard that if you are a black hat but have a TV or go to movies you are now considered MO. I consider myself “Heimish” and would never describe myself as MO. As a matter of fact I find that presumptuous on your part. I am a very tzniusdik person and extremely careful how I dress, extremely careful in the rules of negiah, etc. I would never consider myself MO and neither would any of my friends or neighbors. So you who don’t know me or Oomis throw us into a category because we have TV? So where does that place the Yeshivis or chasidish who have internet? How many madreigas do you fall down?
It’s time to define the term of “Modern Orthodox” in thr CR to avoid future misunderstandings.
“I’ve never heard of a MO Rabbi who says its ok to watch TV (or go mixed swimming in a bathing suit or other things). “
I beg to differ, from the few MO rabbis i know, they would tell you that.
I know a rabbi that has a TV in his office (obviously that gives it a stamp of approval)
I know a different “rav” that was the rabbi of a MO temple and left it to become a rabbi in a conservative school, but that’s not where i’m dealing with, i’ll tell you an encounter i had with him.
I bought something after pesach that had a shayloh if it was chametz she’avar alav hapesach (the store could’ve been jewishly owned), and i asked him because he was a rav of the Kashrut orginazation of the city where the store was located.
He responded what does it matter anyway because IT’S ONLY A D’RABBANAN implying (at least to me) you don’t need to follow d’rabbanans (maybe i’m going overboard but this was how i felt)
Anyway it was taarovos so it was muttar regardless
Modern Orthodox = Torah Umada (in general).
It has nothing to do with mixed swimming in bathing suits, not covering hair or other nonsense. A modern orthodox person may do those things, but that is NOT what defines modern orthodoxy. A yeshivish person can do all of the above.
Mbachur, I meant on Shabbos.
As for that story – I have no idea. But one bad rabbi does not negate an entire movement. Otherwise, no movement would be spared. Is it possible he meant that since it was a drabbanan, we have the ability to be more lenient? What is that phrase – safek d’oraita l’chumra, safek d’rabbanan l’kula?
It’s time to define the term of “Modern Orthodox” in thr CR to avoid future misunderstandings.
(With apologies to Oscar Hammerstein II)
How do you find a word that means MO?
How do catch a cloud and pin it down?
How do you find a word that means MO?
A flibbertidigit, a will-o-the-wisp, a clown?
Oh, how do find the words that mean MO?
How do you hold a moonbeam in your hand?
The Wolf
I know a rabbi that has a TV in his office (obviously that gives it a stamp of approval)
I know of a Chassidic rav who stole (obviously that gives it his stamp of approval). (Oh, you mean that he doesn’t count since it was just his individual conduct…)
MO temple
Subtle jibe?
become a rabbi in a conservative school
I attended a Conservative school for three years before my parents became frum. We had numerous Orthodox teachers. Teaching in a Conservative school does not passul anyone. On the contrary, many would view it as an opportunity for positive influence.
He responded what does it matter anyway because IT’S ONLY A D’RABBANAN implying (at least to me) you don’t need to follow d’rabbanans (maybe i’m going overboard but this was how i felt)
Are you sure that’s what he meant? Perhaps you misunderstood him. And, even if you did understand him 100% correctly and he truly meant you don’t have to follow d’rabbanans (something I find *really* hard to believe), then it simply means that you found one that’s ignorant. Hardly a damning gesture on the entire movement.
I could tell you plenty of stories I know of where Chareidi and Yeshivish rabbis either personally did wrong or else displayed their ignorance. But my personal anecdotal “evidence” is not evidence of corruption of the movements.
The Wolf
“I’ve never heard of a MO Rabbi who says its ok to watch TV (or go mixed swimming in a bathing suit or other things). “
I beg to differ, from the few MO rabbis i know, they would tell you that.
On re-read, it’s obvious from the previous paragraph that SJS left out “on shabbos” WRT watching TV.
On that count, I have to agree. I know of NO MO rabbi who would allow one to watch TV on Shabbos. Your example above is obviously not relevant since you failed to notice that SJS left out “on shabbos.” (Unless, of course, you think that the presence of a TV in his office means that he’s watching it on Shabbos.)
The Wolf
Mbachur- that’s exactly why he joined the conservative world.
then again I know someone that I would consider MO in the way he was dressed (like wearing a kippah srugah) but he wen’t to a shtark camp and everyone looked to him as the masmid.
then again I know someone that I would consider MO in the way he was dressed (like wearing a kippah srugah) but he wen’t to a shtark camp and everyone looked to him as the masmid.
I personally never understood the obsession that people have for the type of material that one’s yarmulke is made out of.
You want to disallow symbols/words — I can understand that.
You want a minimum size — I can understand that.
You want a particular color — I can understand that.
But I never understood the need some people have for a particular material. I fail to see why any yeshiva would disallow a plain knit black yarmulke with no words/symbols/etc.
The Wolf
“Modern Orthodox = Torah Umada (in general). “
So it’s only “BTW it happens to be” that all MO rabbis came to the same conclusion, to permit watching TV?
Says who, does that mean every yeshivish person who has a TV is actually MO? Or Chassidish person? (I know quite a few in each category)
What about the Yeshivish or Chassidish people who don’t have a TV, but watch TV shows or movies on their computers? Are they MO?
Or does it mean that my MO friends who don’t have a TV are actually not MO?
wow, i dont know where to start!
wolfish
“MO temple
Subtle jibe?”
that’s what it was called
On re-read, it’s obvious from the previous paragraph that SJS left out “on shabbos” WRT watching TV.
On that count, I have to agree. I know of NO MO rabbi who would allow one to watch TV on Shabbos. Your example above is obviously not relevant since you failed to notice that SJS left out “on shabbos.” (Unless, of course, you think that the presence of a TV in his office means that he’s watching it on Shabbos.)
i don’t get it
1) whats “wrt”
2)how is it obvious
“You want to disallow symbols/words — I can understand that.
You want a minimum size — I can understand that.
You want a particular color — I can understand that.”
i’m not disallowing it, it’s perfectly kosher, it just shows what stream of orthodoxy he’s from
SJSinNYC
read my post again:
I said, what are the Rabbi’s telling us to do, not what every individual does.
Says who, yes, MO rabbonim allow TV as long as its within a certain spectrum. No MO Rabbi I know of allows anything and everything on TV.
Are you saying that one psak makes a movement?
SJSinNYC
All I’m trying to say is that MO is more than “Torah Umada philosophy”
Says who, you are wrong. MO is about a Torah Umada philosophy. The piskei halacha within MO reflect the philosophy (based on Torah of course).
Same with Chassidus, Yeshivish, etc.
I didn’k think that permitting TV could be a reflection of Torah Umada philosophy
Maybe you’re right, I have to think it over.
“MO temple
Subtle jibe?”
that’s what it was called
Fair enough. But it’s very rare for any frum shul to be called a “temple.”
i don’t get it
1) whats “wrt”
2)how is it obvious
WRT = With Regard To
It’s obvious if you read the preceeding paragraph that SJS was talking about watching TV on Shabbos as that was what the discussion was about — not about TV watching in general.
“You want to disallow symbols/words — I can understand that.
You want a minimum size — I can understand that.
You want a particular color — I can understand that.”
i’m not disallowing it, it’s perfectly kosher, it just shows what stream of orthodoxy he’s from
Silly me… I thought what group you belonged to was determined by your beliefs and actions. I hadn’t realized that it’s all dependent on your headgear. Please forgive the ignorance.
The Wolf
MO is whatever anyone who self-declares as MO wants it to be. There was no founding movement with MO, as there was with Chasidus, the Mussar movement and even illigitimate movements like Reform and Zionism.
To some MO means mixed swimming and TV. To others it might mean Torah Umadda. To other MO folks, they reject even that. Since there never was a movement that got together and said “lets start a MO movement” as occured with the other movements I mentioned, there is no authority that can say no, your philosophy is wrong and not MO. Instead, when asked how can you can allow mixed swimming (for example) in your bungalow colony, the answer invariably is “oh, we’re an MO colony.”
“Silly me… I thought what group you belonged to was determined by your beliefs and actions. I hadn’t realized that it’s all dependent on your headgear. Please forgive the ignorance.”
no, the headgear is an indication of your beliefs and actions
If you saw a person with a streimel you would say he’s from the chassidic sect (not exactly saying he’s a chassid) a black paper kipah is indicative that you aren’t so observant
MO is whatever anyone who self-declares as MO wants it to be. There was no founding movement with MO, as there was with Chasidus, the Mussar movement and even illigitimate movements like Reform and Zionism.
To some MO means mixed swimming and TV. To others it might mean Torah Umadda. To other MO folks, they reject even that. Since there never was a movement that got together and said “lets start a MO movement” as occured with the other movements I mentioned, there is no authority that can say no, your philosophy is wrong and not MO. Instead, when asked how can you can allow mixed swimming (for example) in your bungalow colony, the answer invariably is “oh, we’re an MO colony.”
wasn’t MO started by followers of The Rav
Mbachur, no, check out the history. There was no founding fathers or principles. People simply were deviating from traditional orthodoxy, and eventually it picked up the name “modern” orthodoxy
no, the headgear is an indication of your beliefs and actions
If you saw a person with a streimel you would say he’s from the chassidic sect (not exactly saying he’s a chassid)
So, if I wear a leather kippah or a knit kippah, it means that I have to have certain beliefs and actions?! Are you saying that it’s not possible to wear a knit kippah and have the same hashkafos and actions as a “yeshivish person?”
The Wolf
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