- This topic has 656 replies, 34 voices, and was last updated 1 day, 3 hours ago by .
-
Posts
-
“The only person in habad who kept to this mesora, the rosh yeshiva in torah vada’at in brooklyn, was murdered in his own home….”
“Those redifot had as a direct result that the RY died in his home.
After the RY’s petira, the rebbi of habad publicly disavowed any responsibility for the RY’s demise”This is a blood libel. I will respond, not to Yankel, but to set the record straight for others who may read this:
A Lubavitcher bochur was angry at Rabbi Rivkin and took matters into his own hands. He made a scary phone call to Rabbi Rivkin’s son-in-law and stuffed his lock with woodchips.
The son-in-law, a long-time opponent of Lubavitch, wrote a news story claiming that Lubavitch has a “terror brigade” to enforce what the Rebbe wants.
Afterward, the Rebbe spoke publicly and completely disavowed the bochur’s actions, stating clearly that he went against everything Lubavitch stands for and does not represent the Rebbe in any way. The Rebbe also criticized the article’s author for blaming an entire community for the actions of an individual.
The Forward then retracted the article and apologized for blaming Lubavitch for the vandalism.
That was the end of the incident.
The sicha is recorded (you can listen to it). It took place in Shevat 5735.
Rabbi Rivkin passed away at 84, two years after the incident, and the Rebbe came out to participate in the levaya.
Could you answer the following please –
Is it true that rabbi Rivkin’s ashkavte devei rebbi is not considered ‘acceptable reading material’ in habad mosdot ? Y or N ?
Is it true that rabbi rivkin was niftar after falling from the stairs in his own home as a result of the redifot he suffered because he declined to join your maham shilo in putting this politician in herem ? Y or N ?
After you answer – honestly of course – should we talk about blood libels …..
.
.Btw. — you totally ignored the substance of my post …….
.
.Menachem ignored the main thrust of my post.
I clearly wrote there that we should not use this story to throw mud.
—
A repost of my post
We should not use this story to throw mud.
We should however learn from this about the possibility within habad of someone implying that the leader of habad could be mistaken .
This RY implied it and ended up paying with his life.
The RY obviously held the rebbi from habad in high esteem .
Otherwise he would not be his hasid and attend all those public events with his rebbi.
Nevertheless , as a talmid haham who was higi’a lehora’a , in his opinion at least , said politician was not deserving to be put in herem .
He was not disrespectful.
He just held that his rebbi happened to be mistaken in this one instance , which is perfectly acceptable according to Jewish halacha and tradition.
So he abstained from the herem.
.
.
.
.First Menachem might be ‘too busy’ to answer.
Or ‘not in the mood’.
Then he seems to be a serial victim, nebach.
He might be ‘offended’.
Or the victim of ‘blood libels’.
He has all the specific answers at the ready – to all the specific questions.
Thats beyond doubt.
That goes without saying.
Just one problem . For some mysterious reason he is not sharing them with us.
That mysterious reason has nothing to do with the ‘palatability’ of his ‘secret’ , but ready and available answers ….
.
.“He fell down the stairs after suffering redifos”
Is this a serious statement??
You sound like the democrats who say that 6 or so officers were killed on Jan 6 because one of them suffered a stroke a month later and one of them had a blood clot etc.It actually seems like you were being dishonest when you made it sound like someone murdered the rabbi in his home but when confronted about it, more details emerge that seems to paint a different picture, so I don’t think it’s a problem for Menachem to get offended and call it a blood libel…
Is it true that rabbi Rivkin’s ashkavte devei rebbi is not considered ‘acceptable reading material’ in habad mosdot ?
Y or N ?
.Is it true that rabbi Rivkin’s ashkavte devei rebbi is not considered ‘acceptable reading material’ in habad mosdot ?
Y or N ?
Completely false. All my years in yeshiva, never heard of such a thing. Ashkavta D’Rebbi is considered one of the most respected seforim on Chabad rabbeim, quoted many hundreds of times in Chabad seforim for history and minhagim. I’ve never heard of any objection to it.
You are missing the point.
We are not taking part in a blame game – habad are bad because they murdered the RY.
Thats not the point at all.
The point is that sof kol sof the RY paid with his life for the mere fact that he respectfully proclaimed in front of everyone that in his learned opinion the rebbi of the habad hasidim is fallible and can make a mistake.
Which serves as an example and clear message for anyone else possibly entertaining similar thoughts.
Which explains very well why no one in habad itself , ever since, dared to voice any support to the possibility their leader making a mistake.
As was and still is practised in all other ‘normal’ communities , all around the globe.
Even when the evidence and plain logic overwhelmingly point to the other direction.
.
.
—-
I simply cannot understand why no one engages with the substance of the argument …All they do , is , commenting as if the substance is not there at all, or is something else altogether ….
.
.That wasn’t really the point as mentioned .
Just for the record .
His death was a sudden and DIRECT RESULT of the redifot.
The person doing it would probably be classified as a rotseach begrama.
But , again , that was and is not the point here.
.
.hello ?
menachem to yb:
Is it true that rabbi Rivkin’s ashkavte devei rebbi is not considered ‘acceptable reading material’ in habad mosdot ?
Y or N ?
—
Completely false. All my years in yeshiva, never heard of such a thing. Ashkavta D’Rebbi is considered one of the most respected seforim on Chabad rabbeim, quoted many hundreds of times in Chabad seforim for history and minhagim. I’ve never heard of any objection to it.=================
All of menachems years in yeshiva ….. .
Were menachems years in yeshiva before , or after the ‘herem story’ ?
We do not know menachems age, so it could be that his yeshiva years were before the RY’s disagreement with his rebbi.
According the habad sources I have consulted , the sefer ashkavte d’Rebbi is now on the same level as Rav Shaul Shimon Deutchs multi volume biography about the late rebbi of the habad.
Meaning they both are classified as ‘non allowable’ reading materiel.
.
.Why is menachem only answering selected posts ?
Why is he ignoring certain ones and responding to others ?
Is it only depending on ‘his mood’ at the time ?
Or does it also have to do with the content – and whether or not a palatable response is available ?
Will we merit to receive an honest response on this one ?
Hope so ….
.
.According the habad sources I have consulted , the sefer ashkavte d’Rebbi is now on the same level as Rav Shaul Shimon Deutchs multi volume biography about the late rebbi of the habad.
Meaning they both are classified as ‘non allowable’ reading materiel.
Absolute nonsense, as I pointed out in my last post.
His death was a sudden and DIRECT RESULT of the redifot.
The person doing it would probably be classified as a rotseach begrama.He passed away two years after the harassment by an individual.
What is your source for your murder accusation? Is it the same source as the nonsense about Ashkavta D’Rebbi being banned from Chabad, while every Chabad minhagim sefer printed in the last 50 years quotes it *hundreds* of times, and it’s often quoted in yeshivos to this day as one of the most respected seforim on Chabad hostory? The Chabad magazine “א חסידישער דערהער” ran a feature on the sefer. Parts have been translated to English by Chabad yeshivos.
I will answer your question , although you do not answer mine [besides the convenient ones]
Nor do you respond to my arguments [again, besides the ones convenient for you]
.I hear this from a trustworthy and honest habad friend of mine.
Some twenty years ago.
.Bottom line – even according to your version –
1] did the RY suffer redifot as a result of his inaction to support his rebbi ? Yes or No ?
2] Did the RY disagree with your rebbi in a disrespectful manner ? Yes or No ?
3] Is it true that rebbi / talmid disagreements are valid and can be found in gemara rishonim poskim and aharonim all thru jewish history ? Y or N ?
4] Can you – for honesty’s sake – snap out of your “busy/ offended/ not in the mood/blood libel [etc]” state, and finally provide ‘to the point answers’ to my questions ?
.
.Nu , Menachem ?
.Still waiting for Menachem ….
Is Shtika kehoda’a a klal to be applied here ….
1] did the RY suffer redifot as a result of his inaction to support his rebbi ? Yes or No ?
2] Did the RY disagree with your rebbi in a disrespectful manner ? Yes or No ?
3] Is it true that rebbi / talmid disagreements are valid and can be found in gemara rishonim poskim and aharonim all thru jewish history ? Y or N ?
4] Can you – for honesty’s sake – snap out of your “busy/ offended/ not in the mood/blood libel [etc]” state, and finally provide ‘to the point answers’ to my questions ?
.
Why do hahmei habad who were higi’u le’hora’a regard the last leader and rebbi of the habad hasidim as infallible ?
Is there any clear source for this ?
Or is this just a feeling ?
Or are they concerned that they would be considered as ‘traitors’ or ‘guilty of treason’ [like the late author of ashkavte devei rebbi] if they would give a voice to the possibility of him being fallible ?
Even Menachem who valiantly tries to defend all other habad issues , has kept on walking very far around this issue.
———-
Any response ??
.@menachem or any other defender of habad
Our old question keeps coming back .
Is there a source , anywhere .
From torah logic or hazal that your rebbi is infallible ????If yes , could you or any other habad supporter , provide it ?
.Is it true that a habadi nowadays feels more at ease with a mehalel shabbat than with a fully frum haredi non habadi ?
@ menachem
According to you , R Rivkin z’l was properly accepted in habad . Even after his public disagreement with your infallible rebbi.
.Accepted – like the rebbetsin of the rayats ?
Or like the eldest daughter of the rayats ?
Would you define them as ‘accepted’ in habad ?
Guessing here that menachem is ‘not in the mood’ right now ….
Am happy to hear honest assessments as response those questions .
According to menachem , the fact that his rebbi came out to particpate in the levaya of R Rivkin is a sure sign that the slain rosh yeshiva was ‘accepted’ in habad.
Q for him , hope he is ‘in the mood’ , or maybe better said ‘is he brave enough’ ….
.
.did your rebbi come out for the levaya of his mother in law , the wife of rayats ?
If yes , is that also a sure sign that she was ‘accepted’ in habad ?
.
.Was she really ‘accepted’ in habad ?
Is she mentioned in the magazine ‘derher’ [another of menachems criteria of acceptance in habad] ?
.
.
.Is menachem honest [and brave] enough to front up ????
.
.
We are waiting ….
.
.
.Yankel’s understanding of Chabad personalities and history is like a groyper’s understanding of the Talmud.
But Yankels understanding of Menachem’s sidestepping tactics ….
Which question he deigns to answer and which questions he conveniently ignores …..
That is like whose understanding ?
.
.
.Menachem the expert on habad is hereby invited to give his professional, truthful explanation of the complete story.
Would like to say “unbiased” expert, but can’t.
Menachem is not only biased in how slanted he presents the details. He is even biased in what he addresses and in what he omits.Any unpleasant , uncomfortable issue he omits.
And then he claims that it is omitted , because he happens to be ‘not in the mood’ ….. .
.
.
.Was the wife of the rayats ‘accepted’ in habad ?
.
.Nothing to be scared off.
Truth and honesty do not bite ….
.
.Welcome back
Welcome.
Is it true that rebbi / talmid disagreements are valid and can be found in gemara rishonim poskim and aharonim all thru jewish history ? Y or N ?
R Rivkin died as a direct result of harassment at his front door.
.
..
.Is it common in habad to name baby girls after the rabanit of the rayats ?
As common as the other wives of the rebbes ?
Y or N ?
.
.
Honesty …..
.
.
.In which universities did the late rebbi of habad study ?
And for how long ?
And which courses did he follow ?
Was his father in law the Rayats in full agreement with him doing so ?
Would his grandfather in law the Rashab , who never met the latest rebbi of habad, agree to this course of action ?
.
.
.
There are more questions to be asked , but lets at least start with those .
.Yankel berel: there is a video called early years, you can find all your answers there from most reliable sources (i.e. talmidim of Rabbi Yosef Dov Solovatchik who was with the rebbe, documents, letters) instead of taking your info from who knows where.
By the way I never was told chabad is against Deutchs books. I actually own them and read parts, but many of his story’s are not from reliable sources (just look at the sources he brings)
But it’s very understandable why some chabad don’t like his books as he writes against chabad. (He wrote 30 yrs ago about the dangers chabad faces because we look at the rebbe larger than life, now we are 30 yrs later , and chabad didn’t get worse, on the contrary, many who opposed chabad then, now accept chabad, it’s like all those who were afraid chabad will go off the derech if the rebbe passes away, well it never happened!!)According to my sources, habad has burnt r deutchs books in a public bonfire.
Habad is very big and varied, so the news would not necessarily have gotten to your ears.
—
besides this , you write that r deutch is AGAINST habad because he expresses fear about the dangers habad faces ….
I would not charachterise this as against .
Not at all . I would call that rather “PRO habad” .He , as a real habadi , is concerned about where ‘his’ movement coulld end up .
A mother concerned for her sons future is not AGAINST him.
The bigger the connection with her son , the greater the concern about his future.A stranger might dismiss her concerns. Because the stranger does not have that connection.
So , ironically the one who defends habad is really not concerned about habad. They could not care less what ideological or theolgical hell hole habad ends up ,
whereas the one ‘attacking’ habad , aderaba , is the one deeply connected to the original and true habad and therefore also deeply concerned about its [common sense] future.
—
Have news for you – habad as a movement is slowly going OTD . As long as they are incapable [or unwilling] to squarely confront its demons in the closet.
That is their only hope for salvation.
—-
I posed countless questions on these pages.
It is eerily quiet.
Is it just because the habad side ‘is not in the mood’ ?
Or because of the objective lack of answers ?
.
.
.@yankel berel how many people were by this event of the burning?? 100?
Chabad going OTD, good one, every community has people going OTD, chabad no more than others, but that was not the point, he and others (like R shach) were concerned that the focus on the rebbe being moshiach and having our hopes up so high, can lead to people going OTD if the rebbe passes away. This did not happen.
I told you to watch early years – has all your answershabad as a whole ,slowly going OTD …
meaning as their ideology as concentrating on their rebbi more than HKBH .
They prefer bringing their rebbi nachat ruach , as opposed to bringing the RBSHO nachat ruach.
That is OTD.
Its a slow process , over years and decades . Over generations.
Soon we will be confronted with a generation asher lo yadah et yosef.
All they will know about their rebbi is from the propaganda machine idolizing him as the greatest person to have ever walked this earth.
Those people who still remember his as any other human with his foibles and issues , will be gone.
.
.
.Soon we will be confronted with a generation asher lo yadah et yosef.
All they will know about their rebbi is from the propaganda machine idolizing him as the greatest person to have ever walked this earth.
Those people who still remember his as any other human with his foibles and issues , will be gone.
.
====Have a look at Meshech Hohma parashat shemot , about moshe rabenu ‘being great be’einei avdei par’oh ube’einei ha’am ‘
.
.Will quote the meshech hohma in full bezrat hashem
Have a look in sefer hasmag
at the end of the section of mitsvat asei , where he says that there will be no nevu’a from the time hagai zeharya and mal’achi – until the nevua of elyahu hanavi .
So – last leader of habad’s so called nevu’a [cf. sicha shoftim nun alef] is being clearly disproven !
.
.
.
.
.Wonder why qwerty didn’t show up here
Maybe because Lubavitch wasn’t in the header
Any rebuttal re smag ?
Or another shtikah kehoda’a ?
Its quite a long list …..
.
.How many hasidic rebeim thru the course of history , studied in universities , what are their names and when did they live ?
If there are no hasidic rebbeim who did , why didn’t they ?
What would be lacking if they did ?
.
.Yankel berel maybe we talk about giving the rebbe nachas. Other Jews talk about bringing nachas to their parents so I guess according to you they are idalizing their parents.
Good excuse for OTD. That’s not what they meant clearly.
The gemara in sotah has a whole list of things that were batul like שקדנים, יראי חטא etc. Will you say reb Moshe feinstein did not have יראת חטא? Was not a שקדן???
We went thru this already, the rambam writes nevua will come back a long time ago.Did you receive my previous message ?
Rambam igeres taiman:
“According to the interpretation of this chronology, prophecy would be restored to Israel in the year 4976 after the creation of the world”yankel berel> How many hasidic rebeim thru the course of history , studied in universities , what are their names and when did they live ?
Sorry, I am lurking at this thread and I don’t have enregy to go back, so I may not understand the hidden meaning of this question. But I decided to research this intriguing question. The list seems to be short:
Lubavitcher Rebbe – university of Berlin, Montparnase Vocational College
his brother Yisroel Aryeh Leib Schneerson, died while doing PhD at Liverpool university
Talner Rebbe – Boston Latin high school, hebrew college, harvard, hebrew university,
Mayer Twersky, seems to consider himself (or considered?) Talner Rebbe – harvarda possible drop-out: Munkacser Rebbe, Moshe Leib Rabinovich studied in Israel, undertook secular studies in public schools in São Paulo, Brazil, and later studied in the United States at the Telshe yeshiva in Cleveland, Ohio, refusing to attend college, to his father’s [previous Rebbe] disappointment.
almost there: Dr. Abraham Twerski – got the smicha, from chassidic family, but not really e rebbe – Marquette U, U of Pittsburgh
an honorable mention: Dr. Yehuda Sabiner, First Gerrer Chassid to Graduate Medical School
Yankel berel
Since shalom was made between chasidim and misnagdim in the time of R yotzchok volozin, which gedolim criticized chasidim and Rebbe’s? Called them names, kofrim?
Litvishe gedolim going to university is not good enough for you?
In which way do you see the rebbe was influenced from going to university?
In chabad chassidus it speaks about how very high neshamos go into low places to be mivarer the nitzutzos there, which ordinary people can’t do. Like Yosef hatzadik was the king of mitzraim and gathered all the nitzutzos
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.