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according to sechel
rabanim paskened that his rebbi is a navi.
Convinced that all paskeners are nothing more than third rate and all are habad “rabbanim”.
alma deshikrah.
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.To yankel berel
Let’s not be too tough on Sechel. The more he writes the more he exposes Chabad as a false religion . So let’s not scare him off like we did to Menachem Shmei.
Besides my previous post re the guy from Petach Tiqva dying from a Scud.
Your rebbi “prophesized” that no one will even be nizok.
I remember .
I remember this very clearly . I followed , at the time, all utterances of your rebbi as they were coming out.
I read all so called “Dvar Malhut’s” as they were published.
Many people were wounded by the Scuds.
If your rebbi claimed to possess full halachik nevu’a – he is liable for mita bebet din as navi sheker.
Cf Rambam hilchot yesodeh hatorah [end] .
Where he clearly states
If the prospective navi fails even in one small detail of his prediction ,
we know for sure that he is sheker , and therefore hayav mitah .
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.Students planning demonstrations for soviet jews asked Lubavicher Rebbe and he advised them against out of fear for the students. They did and eventually helped mln of jews to be freed. So there are limits to prophetic vision… other rabbonim gave the same answer: r. Moshe and r Teitz for the same reason and r Soloveitchik because he got advice from Israeli politicians that it is better for soviet jews to keep quiet. When he realized that the advice was self serving and incorrect, he reversed his opinion. Chacham v Navi…
I wrote names of 2 respected rabbamim
Make all the fun you want, see rambam end of hilchos tzaraas
You remember a skud landing on someones head funny, maybe it was your head and you got mixed upThe rebbe never said no one will be injured, everything the rebbe said is written down and if it was on weekday it was recorded.
(I heard the kfar chabad wrote that, but it was a mistake)
And ok maybe that’s not a nevuah so what???
Maybe it’s nevuah but a different level! So.. point??
(I believe these rabbamim know better than me and you)To Sechel
I understand where you’re coming from. As I’ve stated I have a lot of interactions with Chabad and so I know how you guys relate to each other. Is the Rebbe a Novi? Of course he’s a Novi. Does he run the world? Of course he runs the world. You’ve been lied to from the day you were born I know you won’t accept that but it’s the truth.
sechel :
I wrote names of 2 respected rabbamim
Make all the fun you want, see rambam end of hilchos tzaraas
You remember a skud landing on someones head funny, maybe it was your head and you got mixed up—–
Which 2 respected rabanim ???
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sechel :
“maybe it was your head and you got mixed up”
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Is that really the best you can muster ?
Seems like all your bullets are gone …
menachems silence and your non answer point to the same direction ….
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.even according to sechels [non]claim re the actual and verifiable death of a well known lawyer from Petah Tiqva
, he still spouts the most illogical of rubbish
sechel :
I heard the kfar chabad wrote that [no one will be nizok] , but it was a mistake
—–
“the kfar habad” are fanatics [in their belief in their rebbi]
they should misquote their own rebbi ??
Yehoshua bin nun misquotes moshe rabenu ?
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I remember the publications distributed by habad at the time – not the newspaper kfar habad.
Habad in EY , at the time , distributed every utterance of their rebbi in the streets .
Regularly.
As it happened .
It was very easy to follow.
Everyone took it as authentic at the time .
This was the shofar of the rebbi of the habadi’s .
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.I clearly remember the promise that no yid in EY will be nizok.
He said , in addition ,also well publicized [and remembered by yours truly] that EY is the most safe place on the globe ….
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Listen , mr sechel [and menachem , behind the door] , thats not the way to establish halachik nevu’a.
You cannot ‘cut and paste’ nevu’ot according to need.
You cannot claim retroactively that the part which [ostensibly] happened, was predicted and the part which clearly did not happen , was a ‘mistake’ .
Sounds more like a bad joke than like halachik prophesy ….
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.And ok maybe that’s not a nevuah so what???
Maybe it’s nevuah but a different level! So.. point??—
Its not halachik nevu’a .
but anonymous rabanim allegedly ‘paskened’ that it is ?
Come on …
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.Negi’ot are just like blinkers.
A horse doesn’t perceive what outside his vision as reality.
The above seems the only way how a normal habadi does not see the inherent contradictions and inconsistencies in his own belief system .
If someone is noge’a bedavar , he is as good as blinkered .
Ki hashochad ye’aver …..
.Powerful.
.To yankel berel
Now that we’ve proven that L Rebbe wasn’t a Novi which lie should we work on next? How about the Rebbe is Moshiach. The son of a Chabad Rabbi offered this proof to me, “Tell me someone who’s more fit to be Moshiach.” This is how ridiculous their false religion is. The problem is not so much the Lubavitchers but the fools who defend their lies and Kefirah.
The problem is – in my opinion at least – that they are good people , nice people.
With lousy theology.
If you attack them , there is a guaranteed backlash .
Such nice and good people do not deserve to be attacked .
And the backlash – again in my opinion at least – is correct.
They – as individuals , as human beings , do not deserve it .
The chochma is to differentiate between the people and their ideology.
Which happens to be true .
Wonderful people , with a substandard and self contradictory ideology , designed and packaged for mass brainstop.
Or mass brainwash , as one prefers.
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.If someone doesn’t understand an answer is not always cuz they don’t have background to understand but also prob because it doesn’t make sense. Fresh eyes can sometimes see things others miss. Just a thought
Students planning demonstrations for soviet jews asked Lubavicher Rebbe and he advised them against out of fear for the students. They did and eventually helped mln of jews to be freed.
Setting aside the whole prophecy debate, this is simply incorrect.
The Rebbe publicly explained his reasoning for opposing the demonstrations and refuted claims that they were effective.
He was deeply involved in all matters related to the Soviet Union and had numerous sources informing him about developments in Russia, Israel, and the United States.
From a young age, he was engaged in askonus concerning Soviet Jewry and had a far deeper insight into the mindset of Soviet leadership than most.
Many things took place behind the scenes that PR activists didn’t grasp, and the Rebbe publicly elaborated on much of this.
He maintained this position consistently through 1990.
For a comprehensive article on the Rebbe’s position, see here: https://derher.org/wp-content/uploads/69-Sivan-5778-10.pdf
Or Google: Derher “44 sivan 5778”
I realized lately that litvaks use the word kefira for anything not true, so when r shach said the rebbe is a k. He probably just meant he disagrees.
I also said it used to be common for people to call trouble maker kids sheigetz. I saw this in the book about the rogetchover, R chaim brisker called him a sheigetz.
So bh it’s nice to see that r shach wasn’t so seriously against the rebbe or chabad“I realized lately that litvaks use the word kefira for anything not true, so when r shach said the rebbe is a k. He probably just meant he disagrees.
I also said it used to be common for people to call trouble maker kids sheigetz. I saw this in the book about the rogetchover, R chaim brisker called him a sheigetz.
So bh it’s nice to see that r shach wasn’t so seriously against the rebbe or chabad“Whatever floats your boat sechel, now start a movement to have avi ezri in chabad houses (good luck with that)
Menachem, thanks for an interesting article. It confirms that Rebbe opposed demonstrations – but he was not a daas Yachid as I posted (this is from memoirs of one of those students). The article uses, well, somewhat convoluted logic to prove that Rebbe’s quiet help was useful and demonstrations were not. It is probably convincing to those who only read DerHer … Comparing dealing w/ Soviets with French …
Note that the article write about a little later times when Israelis started talking about the issue. The memoirs was about a little earlier times, I think 1960s, when Israelis hoped to improve relationships with USSR and thus advised (lied to) R Soloveitchik. As he put it later: I asked them what is better for Soviet Jews, and they answered what is better for Israel itself. All other rebbeim were concerned, as the article said, that traditional shatdlanus is better and also that KGB could hurt those naive students.
This is absolutely not to disrespect legacy of Chabad in respect to USSR Jews – his father died there in exile, so I am sure he did not have any illusions about the regime, like some other more progressive leaders did.
PS the article is also funny substituting “eretz isroel” for “Israel” even when it is clearly about the state: Soviet Russia cut ties with Eretz Yisroel.
Maybe an editor did find/replace.Rav shach said clearly in public that the rebbi from habad was an apikorus.
He was very seriously against habad’s leader.
Question is only whether this was in his mind halachik kfira , apikorusut , or not .
If yes , then all meat shechted by habadi’s would according to him , automatically be treif, all gittin ve kidushin with habadi witnesses , invalid.
Which would have huge consequences.
My guess is that he did not consider them to be full fledged halachik apikorsim .
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.But r shach for sure held that habad nowadays, harbor substantial departures from our collective mesorah.
The problem with their false meshihiyut is that this was a project very long in the making .
This was cunningly conceived and in a drip drip fashion administered.
Reminds me of climate change [referring both to the dissemination of its theory and the actual climate change]
Chinese expansion is also similar .
They all happen , gradually.
In minute increments.
You do not realize its really happening , all the while it is happening .
And then , suddenly it’s there .
Suddenly it’s there ,growing right under your nose …
Without you ever noticing ….
The decades came and went and suddenly there is a whole established mashiach fantasy , right across your fence.
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.Wow.
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.To yankel berel
The pro-Chabad posters have a new game. On the other thread(Zionism is heresy) I introduced Rabbi Feldman’s attack against Manic Friedman. Two posters stated that Rabbi Feldman had no right to call Manic out because he should have met him to ask what he meant. So Chabad will say that Rav Shach didn’t really mean what he said. The “L” in Lubavich is for liar.
I am also puzzled by lack of communications between senior rabbonim. Do we need a sanhedrin for that or maybe a WhatsApp group? For an example, r G Kamenetsky reported that r Eliashev banned his book without talking directly: after some people told harav that r GK broke their agreement to pause selling the book temporarily. HaRav believed information and later replied to r Gk: I am Not a Navi
You know, that other thread is right here on this very forum, and it’s easy enough for anyone to see that neither I nor Yaakov Yosef there said anything like what you’re claiming. Both of us said that R. Feldman ***could*** have done that, that’s all. Yaakov Yosef can speak for himself, but as for me, I specifically stated, and reiterated:
“it would have been better, and smoothed things over a lot, if R. Feldman had indeed picked up the phone and asked R. Friedman point-blank what he meant and what are his sources. Does that ***obligate*** R. Feldman to have done so before making his video? Well, I’m not about to tell a world-class talmid chacham what he’s obligated to do…”
So your screed about what I said and about what “L” stands for is, yet again, pure projection. Really, a normal person should have more self-respect than that, to say and repeat again and again something that everyone can so clearly see is false.
To everyone else here: look, I have no dog in this fight about the ins and outs of what Chabad and their Rebbe has or hasn’t or would have or wouldn’t have said. But perhaps we should consider, in view of the above, how many arguments against them in this thread and all of the previous ones – which I’m not about to go and start hoovering up and analyzing – are based on similar misrepresentations, misunderstandings, or (as above) flat-out lies.
To the group including the moderators
From 1956 to 1968 there was a game show called “To Tell the Truth” in which there were 4 celebrity panelists one of whom was telling the truth about his occupation. The three contestants had to try to guess who was telling the truth. In this thread Nope and I are taking turns calling each other liars. One of us or perhaps both of us are lying. How should the posters decide. Well, on the one hand I’m forthright about who I am, a LES dentist with many close relationships to great Rabbis. Then we have Nope about whom we know nothing. He wrote to me VIN that he never reveals anything because the information will be used against him. Ask yourself what he’s hiding. Checkmate.
@ Nope
You wrote: “how many arguments against them in this thread and all of the previous ones – which I’m not about to go and start hoovering up and analyzing – are based on similar misrepresentations, misunderstandings, or (as above) flat-out lies”
No doubt a great many arguments are based on misrepresentations, misunderstandings, and lies. However that does not detract from a substantial number of well reasoned arguments and objections.
To non-political
Great point. I have extensive dealings with Nope.
The great Beatles song ,” Nowhere Man” comes to mind. Doesn’t have a point of view knows not where he’s going to. Nope is a Chabad apologist. His mission is to deflect all criticisms of Chabad. So he will say anything and hope it sticks. And if it doesn’t he’ll make something else up. About seven months ago I was going back and forth with him on VIN. Some woman joined in to challenge Chabad and he immediately disappeared. Like the Shed he is he can’t tolerate a double team. Let’s stay on point.qwerty > The three contestants had to try to guess who was telling the truth.
This comes up at the end of maseches Shevuos. We do not like having two contradictory oaths that makes it clear that one of them is a liar. When I see a threat, khm, where it is obvious that at least half of the posters are not honest, I just lose interest. Maybe stick to a discussion of things that are verifiable by all sites and then it can lead to a productive exchange of opinions.
you asked about the rebbi of habad being mashiach ?
—first of all , there is absolutely no reason to assume that he is .
—second , there are clear proofs that he is not.
—third – according to habad long held belief , there is clear proof that he is not
—so – the only thing left for us to explore , is the following astounding fact.
belief in his supposed messiahship is widespread within the habadi circles.
whereas in non habadi circles [- the overwhelming majority of orthodox judaism] , this is non existent.
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which begs the question – is this unreasonable phenomenon , engineered ?
or did this just ‘happen’ by itself ?
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important query
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.To yankel berel
Your point in the June 23rd post is worth commenting on ie that Chabad expansion is gradual. Basically, the two sides are in trench warfare and neither can move the either. What results is name-calling but nothing substantive. Perhaps I can change the equation. When Rabbi Butman had his radio program he would often say that when Moshiach comes there won’t be any more Shnayim Ochzin Bitallis. Then he’d explain, “Yes there will be Shnayim Ochzin Bitallis” but only the Kabbalistic understanding. When I said this over to a Rav he rejected it arguing that every aspect of Torah is eternal..Next let’s consider the following. About two years ago I was arguing with a Lubavicher on VIN. I told him that it’s ridiculous to believe the Rebbe is Moshiach because he didn’t meet Rambam’s criteria. He responded, “Rambam is a Posek on planet earth but Chabad exists in the world of Yechida and we don’t follow Rambam in our world.” Next we come to Manic Friedman who said that G-d needs us more than we need Him.” So this is at odds with Rambam’s e 3rd fundamental of faith. But now it makes sense. They don’t think that his rules apply any more. Finally we consider statements made by Menachem Shmei and others on YWN. They’d say outlandish things and then tell us to study their sources. What emerges is that we have 2 different belief systems and neither side will budge. I hope that this will lead to open discussion rather than worthless epithets.
qwert> Vin > we don’t follow Rambam in our world.
You could have told him that his Rebbe was learning Rambam and so should he.
To yankel berel
I heard Butman’s son definitely declare on his Saturday night program that the Rebbe is a Novi. This is one of Chabad’s big lies that they keep repeating to themselves and for the general public.
you are right.
they are 2 different belief systems .
the problem is that one side hides it.
hides it behind feel good stories and feel good teachings.
it is important to feel good and to make other people feel good.
equally, however one should not fear the emet.
the truth as it is.
the facts as they are, without any sidestepping and without any other avoidance tricks.
they would earn trust if they could bring themselves to confront the facts .
confront them head on , with truth and candor .
and with courage.
it seems that they are so afraid of the facts , they run a mile whenever challenged.
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.To always ask
You make a good point except for one thing. Lubavitchers make a yearly Siyum on Rambam but that doesn’t mean that they” learn” Rambam. What I mean is they turn the pages but since they reject many of Rambam’s fundamental principles it’s not called learning. Menace Friedman rejects Rambam’s 3rd principle of faith that G-d is incorporeal and has no human attributes by stating that He needs us more than we need Him. And Rambam gave clear-cut criteria for Moshiach which Chabad rejects because it refutes their ridiculous claim that Schneerson is Moshiach.
qwerty, Lubavitcher Rebbe quotes Rambam. So, sit down and learn some Rambam with your local chabadnik. Don’t have to start with controversial chabad things, make start with some moreh nevuhim.
Qwerty
I guess all these people who have bumper stickers “hashem needs every yid” are kofrim?
Rather it depends how you understand it. Hashem doesn’t need us for him to exist – that’s what the rambam says. There is nothing wrong with saying that hashem needs us to fulfill Torah and mitzvosWords of the avodas hakodesh that our ovoda is needed
דמשארז”ל וכי מה איכפת לו כו’ הוא על אדון יחיד שורש השרשים דלי’ לא איכפת לי’ כלל, ואמנם לצורך הכבוד להשפיע על הראשים העליונים לייחד ראש המחשבה בסופה כו’ צורך גמור הוא.Question is only whether this was in his mind halachik kfira , apikorusut , or not .
If yes , then all meat shechted by habadi’s would according to him , automatically be treif, all gittin ve kidushin with habadi witnesses , invalid.
I want to see an Orthodox rabbi who will let a women married by chabad, get remarried without a get.
That’s my point you guys use leshonos very lightlyTo Sechel
You make a good point. The bumper stickers should read “Hashem wants every Yid.” But the reason that Rabbi Feldman, who is a Godol called Menace Friedman a Kofer is not only because of that statement. Friedman said that no Jew can be punished no matter what he does. This is a denial of Schar Veonesh. Before Nope attacks me for saying that Rabbi Feldman didn’t call him a Kofer he called him a Bor Brishus Harabim. Fine but he also said that Menaces statements were heresy. Nice to have you back I like you even though you’re wrong.
sechel is right about the orthodox rabbi.
[he is repeating my point here]
.sechel is wrong in mindlessly repeating the navi nonsense
and in mindlessly repeating the mashiach nonsense.
and in mindlessly repeating all of the habad nonsense which was never part of the original habad.
sechel and his fellow habadi apologists should be very, very , wary of the collective orthodox rabbi’s acceptance of their siddur kidushin ve gittin.
they are pushing the boundaries with their ever increasing nonsense.
once they cross it, it will be too late .
they will end up in the company of jews for j , the reform and the conservatives.
they ought to be very careful.
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.To Sechel
Why do you care about what Rabbi Feldman said? When you tell us that the Chabad Rabbis made a Psak real Jews don’t care. Your Rabbis aren’t our Rabbis and our Rabbis aren’t your Rabbis. And that’s why you can reject what Rambam said. What you guys like to do you is cherry pick statements from Chazan that seem to support your agenda. That’s exactly what the Christians did. It’s a free country. You can believe what you want, but no real Jew accepts those beliefs.
what would rabbi feldman say about the avodas hakodesh?
schar veonesh – i already said to say there is no schar veonesh today is like saying no nevuah – both ikrai emunah, obviously your only a kofer if you say it doesnt exist at all ever! never was never willl be!
i amagine rabbi feldman learned a lot of gemara, but when it comes to these topics, Rabbi Freidman learned much more.To Sechel
So you’re saying that you know more than a Godol Israel. Is that correct?
To Sechel
Rabbi Feldman is a Godol and so he learned far more Torah than Menace the Maniac. Please provide a source for Menaces’s contention that Schar Veonesh would stop applying after 2000 years of Golus. Is it in the Shulchan Aruch? Is it in the Gemara? No the Kofer made it up just like the Kofer Schneerson made up that all Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach. The most appropriate name for your false religion is Koferism.
To yankel berel
Your point that they hide the fact that they have a different belief system is spot on. They do this because their ultimate goal is to rule all Jews. Obviously if they announced that they no longer accept Rambam or the Gemara that would force the foolish Rabbis who praise Chabad to abandon them. Therefore Sechel has to try to make it sound like Menace isn’t a Kofer but of course he is.
you are right, the rebbi – navi fallacy is widespread within habad
but toally non existent within normative judaism
this fallacy has a clear source ,
the navi himself, crowned himself , in dvar malhut shoftim 5751
and all hasidim ‘proved’ his nevua from the very same dvar malhut
and then challenged the reasonable world to disprove
something which was proven and already established as fact
as a result of the above
the following habad generations are raised to believe , with their mother’s milk
that the tekufat hanevu’a ended with the shloshe asar
instead of [as known to all jews of the last few millenia] , the trei asar
there is hagai , zeharya , malachi and menachem mendel.
all because of the dvar malhut of shoftim 5751 ….
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.@ Sechel83
You wrote: “i imagine rabbi feldman learned a lot of gemara, but when it comes to these topics, Rabbi Freidman learned much more.”
The key word here is “imagine” How do you know who learned more about “these topics”?
Do you really believe that there are no competent detractors and that if we would all just learn Chabbad Chassidus with an open mind then we would surely see the light? Are you serious?
Next
You wrote: “i already said to say there is no schar veonesh today is like saying no nevuah”
Are you saying there is no schar today either? Probably not, you mean just no onesh, right? So, there would be infinite reward for our Torah and Mitzvos, but no negative consequences for out failures? Is that the position you are seeking to defend?
To yankel berel and non-political
It looks like our work is done with regard to demonstrating that the entire Chabad religion is a house of lies. What must be done next is to reach out to Jews who are on the fence. Most people are all or nothing that is they love or hate Chabad. As evidenced by the fact that I Daven in a Chabad shul I take a middle approach. I recognize and appreciate the good that Chabad does but I can’t ignore it’s idolatry. When I showed up Yaakov Yosef A quickly left the thread saying farewell with the perfunctory Refuah Shleimah. Such Jews are afraid of the truth and it’s very hard to reach them.
Again and again same arguments
I have nothing to add.
Calling the rebbe a … Is apikorses. Making fun of a talmidim chacham is apikorses. End of story
Manis Friedman if he would be a misnaged – would be a gadol on the moetzes – fact!To Sechel
I have a serious question. I know that Chabad “learns” Pirkei Avos so how do you understand Mishna 3:1 in which Aka ya Ben Mehallalel says, Know three things and you won’t come to sin?” The third thing is that a person has to give Din VCheshbon when he leaves the world. So do you reject this also?
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