If you've read "NASI Project Responds", have you changed your mind?

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  • #848076
    AZ
    Participant

    medium: so perhpas you like the NASI Programs active in various communites across the country….

    100/400….

    oh if you knew the flak they got when they started those….

    yes here in this very same holy CR….

    #848077

    AZ, I like the old fashioned way:

    Try for everyone equally (extra effort, the older a girl gets)

    Daven that Shadchanim are inspired so they’ll produce long lasting successful results and

    Daven that the wealthy arent cheap, and

    Daven that everyone else pay going rate.

    Halevei Gedolim can figure out the solution to the many guys I deal with, whose feet are in Shidduchim BUT their hearts and minds arent (theyre looking for everything in one) and depress the girls they look into and then either dismiss or date unfruitfully. Nothing any Shadchan is offered will change that. Un-Merry go round dating.

    #848078
    AZ
    Participant

    Midwestern:

    It would help if you choose not to forget the various effective programs and tatctics employed by the NASI project in the last 4+ years to break the stigma against slightly oldet girls and alleviate the age gap. I would think that their track record should certainly earn them just a bit of benefit of the doubt.

    you either mistakenly or purposely pretend like the people involved in the program woke up 3 months ago and said hey lets make this “outrageos” program…

    I certainly could be accused of not being a objective reader of your posts, but it certainly sounds like you have a ax to grind…

    Just curious, are you familiar with any other people or organization who have done anything to bring about the kinds of changes that would allevaite the age gap.

    #848079
    apushatayid
    Participant

    This latest initiative is a carrot for shadchanim to invest time in older singles. This is not an initiative to alleviate any stigma against an older single. In fact, it perpetuates those stigmas by basicly bribing shadchanim on a sliding scale, the older the girl the larger the bribe, to expend time and effort on those older singles. I wish it works. I wish every girl signed up has 12 guys willing to date her by parshas yisro. Unfortunately, and unless, shadchanim (or anyone else) are willing to dangle a similar carrot in front of boys to actually say “yes” to girls, nobody will gain, except the bank where all the funds are being held.

    #848080

    Unfortunately, and unless, shadchanim (or anyone else) are willing to dangle a similar carrot in front of boys to actually say “yes” to girls, nobody will gain, except the bank where all the funds are being held.

    Brilliantly put!

    #848081
    midwesterner
    Participant

    I think that my ax grinding is very clear. I think that given the financial hardships that most of our families are undergoing, if someone creates a program that extorts exorbitant sums of money from families, through playing with the hearts of young girls who are likely to be petrified by the over the top advertising, (10% of the girls graduating Bais Yaakov will NEVER get married! remember that one?) they had better have some serious Daas Torah.

    The Shalom Bayis issues that you’re going to cause by causing people to stress out to an unprecedented level just to get on a list would be enough to scare me out of initiating such a project.

    I think also that by your over emphasizing shidduchim being red to older girls, and forbidding people from redding shidduchim to younger girls, means than in short order, EVERY SINGLE girl will be an older girl. That will in effect quadruple shadchan fees for everyone. Not just the unfortunate few that hit their 22nd birthday while still single. You can’t redd a shidduch until the girls is 20. And at 22 the fee quadruples. Actually it quintupled, until the game changing program changed its game three weeks later.

    If the problem is not enough boys for the girls, how does exponentially increasing the fee schedule answer that problem?

    If someone raises a foolish (at best) solution to a problem, and there are strong reasons to believe that it is the incorrect solution, should we just roll over and accept it, because they creators of the solution care a lot, and because I don’t have an alternative? If it’s wrong, then it’s wrong.

    And finally, I think that a large reason for the shidduch crisis can be found in a very short famous six word line in the gemara.

    “Tav l’meisav tan du, milemeisav armelu.” There are loads of single boys out there. Go visit the Irv, and you’ll find them by the dozens, even the hundreds. They are not bothered by being single nearly as much as the girls are. It is very sad for them, but it is the teva that Hashem put in the briah. Boys can handle being single more than girls can. Since the girls are more desperate than the boys, there is a crisis for them. You can fiddle with the numbers, move the incentives here or there, but the teva habriah remains the same.

    Boys have always been getting married older than girls. There are reasons for this that are also built into teva habriah.

    I have no doubt that Rabbi Pogrow’s intentions are 100% lishmah. He is a man of impeccable integrity. But there is a goyishe expression that talks about the material used to pave a certain path. I chas veshalom don’t wish that upon him or any of the NASI operatives who are surely all acting with the best intentions. But to decide centrally and organizationally how to run the economy was the path of Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin. It is doomed to fail, but not just on itself, but while taking down who knows how many along with it.

    Lo almon Yisroel. If Hashem created the world, Mahn d’yahiv chayei, yahiv mezonei. And I firmly believe that yahiv shiduchei as well. You want to make hishtadlus to help what you perceive to be a deficiency in the system, you’re entitled to do that. But please don’t inflict undue economic hardship on an already overtaxed parent body of Bnos Yisroel because of your dreams.

    And the final piece of my ax is that I am a father of 6 daughters, 5 of whom are still single (only one is already of age to be in the parsha). Where is all the extra money gonna come from? I firmly believe that Hashem will provide. He has until now, halevai vaiter. The original game changing kole koreh back a few months ago said that if we don’t act then we will be responsible. I say that if you do act, then you will be responsible for the financial hardships you are inflicting on us all.

    #848082

    Forget the hardship of that money, I have no intention of supporting my kids for five years after the wedding either. The financial hardship only begins there.

    #848083
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “should we just roll over and accept it,”

    Joining the program is not mandatory, nor is it even suggested or recommended by any of the signatories. Ignore it if you don’t like it.

    #848084
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DY:

    My understanding of the shidduch payment is that if the minhag would depend on age as well as location, the payment would vary as well. (No different than any other Sirsur).

    #848085
    AZ
    Participant

    Medium:

    “AZ, I like the old fashioned way:”

    Einstein:

    Definition of insanity: Doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results.

    APY: Time will tell won’t it?? Why argue theory, lets allow the results to speak for themsevles.. If you’d like i’ll explian how this will continute to close the age gap in fact it’s been explained numberous times in the very thread (i think).

    Midwest:

    1. Sure I remeber that one, and they would continue to write it (if it was still true), alas the papers got afraid and wouldn’t print it in the ad because of people like yourself. Please don’t accuse the project of having the same lack of backbone that the papers do.

    2. Not nearly the shalom bayis issues that are caused by having girls at home who are petrified of never getting married.

    3. Forbid? please indicate where that is stated ANYWHERE?????

    4. You finally asked the question. How does this program help alleviate the crisis. Nice. Why don’t you just focus on that and once you understand that, you’ll understand it a whole lot better.

    Rembeber the NASI Project aren’t shadchanim and benefit nothing by setting up a program with “exorbitant” rates. So why do YOU think they did it?? Hint, the answer is in the CR many times and was printed at length in the papers.

    5. “And finally”, you now have expressed. You don’t believe the reality of the shiddcuh crisis. You seem to believe that there are roughly the same amount of older single guys as older single girls… As i wrote earlier everyone is entitled to their own opinion, not their own facts…

    when you are prepared to face the reality of the crisis and realize that Hashem didn’t cause it he simply allowed us to make it happen i think you will then think differently.

    It was precisely for people like yourselves that there was a urgent need to take out a ad that stated

    10% of this years graduating class may rc”l never get married.

    Peoples heads at the time were in the sand. they were in denial. It seems like some people still are.

    As a father of 6 girls i would think you would be a person who is best served by making sure you understand the sugya AD HASOOF and do anything and everything you can to alleviate it as quickly as possible.

    Have you ever thought of contacting the project and sharing your thought and feelings with them directly.

    You might be presently suprised.

    As a side note: you should know that people who have given of themselves (and i don’t mean money) b’lev u’vinefesh to assist in various ways to alleviate the crisis have seen tremendous hatzlacha with their own kids shidduchim. It’s simply the emes pshat in

    “hamispalel b’ad chaveiyro v’hu tzorich l’oso davar”. Not a gimmick of trading names on a tehillim list with people you don’t know and don’t have any feeling for, but getting down and dirty to help others in the same situation.

    The project doesn’t publicize this because they aren’t in the business of “hawking segulos” but know that it works and chazal told us that it does.

    Feel free to contact the project to learn more about the sugya and how you can be of assistance to the project or to your midwestern conmmunity.

    #848086
    apushatayid
    Participant

    I am certain that girls who are part of this program will get engaged and married at a higher proportion that those who do not. Money talks. However, if a father would let it be known in the street that there was a bounty on his daughters head for a shidduch, he would have people banging down his door with shidduch suggestions as well. The only difference is that in your scenario the father and his daughter get to save some shred of dignity by not having to declare this publicly. Only authorized shadchanim will be privy to his busha.

    It’s a start. I admit I dont have any better idea. Hopefully it will be successful.

    #848087
    oomis
    Participant

    And what happens to the POOR (financially, not nebbich cases) girls?

    #848088
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Nine pages. Have we found a solution yet?

    #848089
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    oomis1105:

    Hate to put it this way, but they get off their high horse (not expect to be supported or support) & marry another poor guy, who might have crooked teeth too. They will scramble to earn a living, and bezras Hashem they will turn out OK.

    That is the way it was in Europe.

    I know the problem with that is every Tom, Dick & Harry is expecting to be supported in Kollel, leaving no boys for the girls. Speak to the Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva if you consider that to be a problem.

    #848090
    AZ
    Participant

    Oomis1105: This helps the financially poor FAR more than the rich. It levels the playing field as never before. For a few thousand dollars girls have the opportuity to get attention from shadchanim across the counry. It’s the kind of attention that previously was reserved for the super wealthy. And the money is only spent AFTER the wedding. As one mother said, serve pizza at the wedding but at least we will dance…

    APY: if you are sure (not sure how yo could know since nevua went out of style a while ago) then aren’t you saying that if many many all or the majority of girls who are 22+ would join this program, this would cause them to get married at a higher rate than the 19 year olds?

    if that’s the result

    and

    we agree that we need to close the age gap to sovle the probem,

    then there is you solution (BTGuy-this ones for you…)

    (I for one do NOT think it’s the singular solution, but i do agree that this program is a very helpful part of a multi pronged effort to close the age gap)

    #848091
    apushatayid
    Participant

    One does not have to be a navi to know that money talks. It always has, always will. The gevir who had money in the shtetel had shadchanim banging on his door. The gevir who let’s it be known that a shidduch for his daughter is worth 8

    X always has people knocking on his door. This program just institutionalizes the concept, helps spread the word in an organized manner, facilitates and guarantees payment, but at the end of the day

    it is simply the same concept. Yes, I am sure that financial incentives to the shadchan, will get girls attention. I am sure larger financial incentives will get more attention. What this has to do with closing the age gap I don’t understand, perhaps I am just stupid, but if these girls get attention from shadchanim and gets them married, who cares. The ultimate goal is to get them married.

    #848093
    sushee
    Member

    apushutayid:

    In a nutshell, the way this new program helps towards closing the age gap is as follows. By encoraging shadchanim to focus on older girls (as younger girls are not eligible to participate in this new program) with a greater financial incentive, the shadchanim will be focusing more on the older, higher paying, girls in the program at the expense of focusing less on the younger girls who aren’t eligible to join.

    Thus, through these redirected focus and efforts of the shadchanim, more shidduchim will be produced among the older girls and less among the younger girls. So, inevitably, this will cause girls (on average) to get married at an older age than currently.

    (Unfortunately older girls who aren’t participating in the program will also get less attention and shidduchim.)

    #848094
    zaidy78
    Participant

    AZ, while the program levels the playing field as you say for the “POOR”, it only helps the shadchanim. No boy is going to start looking at girl just because she put 5K in an escrow account.

    As a matter of fact the boy knows that whatever money the poor girl was going to bring into the marriage it is now that amount -5K.

    The only people who gain on the deal is a the shadchanim (and $500 for NASI), while the loosers are the girls (who have now become a valuable commodity), parents (who are now forced to fork over HUGE sums so that they can become a commodity), boys (who are starting out marriage with 5K less in the bank), and society as whole (who now have a new STANDARD to live by).

    Chaval.

    #848095
    zaidy78
    Participant

    Next years school tuition scholarship applications will ask for:

    How much money have you put away in the NASI Game Change Escrow Account?

    #848096
    rc
    Participant

    i agree again the money needs to be an incentive to the boy, not the shadchan. also the yeshivas need to bring boys back to the US earlier.

    #848097

    (Unfortunately older girls who aren’t participating in the program will also get less attention and shidduchim.)

    Not necessarily; the more shidduchim are made with “older” girls, the more the stigma of marrying an “older” girl is reduced, which ultimately helps all of the “older” girls, not just the ones enrolled.

    #848098

    My understanding of the shidduch payment is that if the minhag would depend on age as well as location, the payment would vary as well. (No different than any other Sirsur).

    It’s certainly possible, but think about it; it would only happen if this program were extremely successful. If we (as a society; I have nothing to do with NASI) can succeed in marrying off hundreds of older girls and preventing igun for so many, wouldn’t it be worth it?

    #848099
    sushee
    Member

    DY: Wouldn’t supply and demand work against the non-participants, as the participants get (and scoop up) a better shot at the available shidduchim (with less available guys than girls in the shidduch pool)?

    #848100
    AZ
    Participant

    DY: thanks

    Zaidy: Boys date the girls they are redd to. If they are redd to girls who are 19/20 that’s who they will marry. if they are redd to girls who are 22/23 then that’s who they will marry.

    it’s not rocket science.

    Sushe well done: as for the girls who don’t join, it was explained at length numberous times why they won’t be hurt. if it is so wildly succesful as measured by massive nubmers of dates and wedding as to create a situation where girls not on the list might be hert, they you can be sure they will join.

    We still have a ways to go to get there.

    Hopefully it will be so succesful as to create that problem.

    #848101
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Boys date the girls that are redt to them, however, they marry the ones who pass the vetting process of their mothers. Unfortunately, money in an escrow account payable to a shadchan and not guaranteed payable to the son on a monthly basis for X years, is not something she is looking for for her tzadkik and gaon of a son. A truly game changing program would be a kol koreh signed by the 70 Rabbonim decrying the warped values and attitutes prevalent in todays world of shidduchim.

    #848102
    apushatayid
    Participant

    As an aside, ask any shadchan just how true the statement “boys date the girls who are redt to them” really is.

    Any program that eliminates the need to jump through hoops of fire to get a yes from a guy would be truly groundbreaking.

    #848104
    AZ
    Participant

    Sushe: Pleaure to interact with someon who gets it!

    the answer to your question:

    If 50 or 100 girls join the program, there certainly is no danger that non participants will be left in the cold. Shadchnim need to focus on far more than 50/100 girls.

    if 500 1000 girls join the program, then that is certainly a reality.

    There is only one reason why 500/1000 girls will join and stay in the program….

    That reason is RESULTS RESULTS RESULTS

    as measured by huge numbers of dates and weddings for these girls.

    If that happens,

    yeah i think it will be established that it’s worthwhile for every girl to join the program, wouldn’t you??

    and if we get to that point and there are still girls who can’t afford it….. there is a simple solution for that as well.

    cross that bridge if/when iy”h it gets there….

    #848105
    AZ
    Participant

    APY: ask any shadchan, boys don’t date girls that they meet in clubs. they date girls who are suggested to them. Not every girl that is suggested, but they (their mothers) choose from amongst those that are suggested to them. Do you think it works a different way?

    If the vast majority of the girls redd to them are 22+ then in all likelyhood the girls who will pass the mohters vetting process will be girls who are 22+

    #848106
    rc
    Participant

    amen to apushtayid!!!

    #848107

    AZ!

    I said: “AZ, I like the old fashioned way…”

    You said: Einstein: Definition of insanity: Doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results.

    I say: Good, lets all learn to walk on our hands and put food up our nostrils. Perhaps we’ll become healthier.

    Similarly, put big money in escrow, so that maybe…. you’ll get more yeses and maybe they will lead to a Shidduch…. maybe…

    Id STILL like to know if even ONE of the undersigned Rabbonim or their daughters or granddaughters plan to fork over many thousands to be on a list. Giving approval is one thing, putting out thousands is another.

    #848108
    apushatayid
    Participant

    AZ. You want to destroy stigmas against “older” girls, then stop perpetuating it. Progressively increasing the escrow deposit as girls get older perpetuates this stigma in the worst way.

    #848109
    AZ
    Participant

    Medium:

    If you’ve followed the project at all, you will know clearly that this single program is not the beginging of their efforts nor is it the end of their efforts. It is simply ONE piece of the puzzle of a multi pronged effort

    Dear Moderator: I’m told that there is a very chasuve rov who is strongly supportive of the NASI Project in general and this program in particular (his name isn’t on the letter as are many who are supportive of the Project and program who for various reasons aren’t on the letter) he is not only is forking over thousands of dollars, but he’s doing it not even for his own daughter and he’s is scraping the money together to do so.

    I hope this answers your question

    #848110
    AZ
    Participant

    APY: thanks for you insight. Gee i’m sure the people advising the program never thought of that downside.

    I’ll make sure to bring it up with them.

    Can you think of a reasn why it’s necessar to progressively increae the dollar amount. Why it’s actually in the best interest of the young women.

    it’s not that hard to figure out. While you may feel that the downside outweighs the upside, the people advising the program do not.

    #848111

    AZ,

    Thanks for letting us know that ONE Rov is scraping up money to help with this initiative.

    Im still wondering if ONE of the undersigned have SIGNED UP their own daughters or granddaughters and committed their own hard earned $G$E$L$T$. The huge list of undersigned no doubtedly have HUNDREDS of daughters and granddaughters in Shidduchim!!!!

    Through networking I will find out sooner or later.

    Giving approval for others is one thing, putting out thousands personally is another.

    #848112
    snow
    Member

    The undersigned don’t need to pay money, I’m sure they’ll get shidduchim for their daughters anyway because of their positions. But, even if it was hard, they probably wouldn’t fork over all that money…

    #848113

    Medium Size Shadchan:

    Im still wondering if ONE of the undersigned have SIGNED UP their own daughters or granddaughters and committed their own hard earned $G$E$L$T$.

    snow:

    But, even if it was hard, they probably wouldn’t fork over all that money…

    What motivates you to be so cynical when you have absolutely no idea what these talmidei chachamim have done or would do?

    What right do you have to accuse them of hypocrisy without a shred of evidence?

    Shame on both of you.

    #848114

    AZ:

    Dear Moderator: I’m told…

    That probably wasn’t a moderator. Anybody can write in bold.

    #848115
    oomis
    Participant

    “APY: thanks for you insight. Gee i’m sure the people advising the program never thought of that downside.

    I’ll make sure to bring it up with them”

    I agree with APY, on this. And BTW,you probably should not use the expression “gee,” because it is a shortened form of the name of the guy whose birthday was celebrated by goyim on 12/25. (Not joking).

    #848116

    What right do you have to accuse them of hypocrisy without a shred of evidence?

    Gut Voch! What a way to start your week!

    What right do you have to accuse anyone of accusing the undersigned of hypocrisy????

    I have friends and acquaintances who are married to individuals of great Yichus, the equivalent of those on the list, or possibly higher, I hesitate to judge.

    If someone approaches them for approval of a project, it doesnt mean that they’ll neccessarily invest in that project themselves. They might see some value in it for some, but wouldnt neccessarily have set it up exactly that way, and wouldnt neccessarily encourage their own flesh and blood to be involved or commited to the tune neccessary with Nasi fine print.

    You can see value in something for some and yet hesitate to be involved yourself.

    Theyre certainly NOT forcing parents or older girls to pay up, or making any predictions for the effectiveness.

    Feel free to call that hypocrisy. Revealing of your Ayin Tov.

    #848117
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Oomis, apy’s Rebbe uses the phrase “gee golly” all the time. It bothers me a bit but I still listen to him because he’s a great speaker. I’ve been listening to him for over 6 years now.

    #848118

    Medium Size Shadchan,

    Giving approval to a specific project is, in fact, encouraging people to join it, at least under certain circumstances. If under the same circumstances, these rabbonim and R”Y wouldn’t join, as you imply, it would be hypocritical.

    #848119

    Oomis and 42, golly is a euphemism for G-d.

    #848120

    If under the same circumstances, these rabbonim and R”Y wouldn’t join, as you imply, it would be hypocritical.

    Thats a big if. Two different people are never in the same circumstance. I think the undersigned see some value in it for some, but arent insisting people pay up, or saying that this has any kind of guarantee. Theyre in no way saying those who dont pay up are neglecting their kids or themselves, in any way, or erring in judgment.

    If you have the money and you’re desperate and you want to try, try, is what it sounds like to me.

    #848121

    MSS,

    I don’t think anyone ever tried to imply that there is any chiyuv to join.

    I apologize if you didn’t mean anything negative about the signators.

    #848122
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Perhaps they are willing to overlook it. The vast majority of people are not.

    #848123

    I apologize if you didn’t mean anything negative about the signators.

    DY, B”H, Thanks! I have the highest regard for the undersigned. Just because they give the Bracha for something, doesnt automatically mean theyd do it for themselves.

    #848124
    AZ
    Participant

    MSS: With this having being clarified, your point therefore is………….

    #848125
    oomis
    Participant

    Oomis, apy’s Rebbe uses the phrase “gee golly” all the time. It bothers me a bit but I still listen to him because he’s a great speaker. I’ve been listening to him for over 6 years now. “

    APY’s great speaking ability (and I concur), notwithstanding, the X-tians initialized the use of the shortened form “gee” to avoid taking the full name of their lord in vain. It is short for what it is short for, there is no question about that. No Yid should knowingly use that expression, just as they should not say “Criminy” as an expletive, because it also is a euphemism for the latter part of their deity’s name.

    I know I sound a little retentive here, but it is clear that many people use this very common expression without realizing what they are actually saying. They would not start a sentence with the whole name, so why start it with what is really the “nickname?” (Some people add a “z” at the end of the word, and it is more obvious what it stands for, in that case).

    #848126
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Yes, that is why I say “blazes.”

    I don’t like to say any of the go— words, because they are all shem Hashem, nor the words which are based on Jesus. I also decided that “heck” is a bit crass.

    Now, “blazes” is probably also a nickname for Hell, but I think I can deal with that.

    I guess otherwise we’ll need to copy the purim tape and say “what in shushan is going on here?”

    #848127
    AZ
    Participant

    thanks for the education. I’ll repost

    APY: thanks for you tremendous insight. I’m sure the people advising the program never thought of that brilliant creative angle and potential downside.

    I’ll make sure to bring it up with them.

    who knows maybe they’ll shut down the entire operation..

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