Maricopa county audit

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  • #2009831
    jackk
    Participant

    Surprising news is being reported today by the media about the audit results.
    A Gut Moed and Gut Shabbos to all.

    #2009845
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Apparently these clowns found a bunch of anecdotal glitches (most of which are either technicalities or not fully documented) but concluded that in aggregate, they would not have affected the outcome. The Trumpkopf has already declared vindication, moved on to Texas where he won by a large margin and demanding selective audits in Texas counties where he claims “everyone knows there was fraud” since he should have won by “much bigger margins”. The Repubicans in Texas are so terrified of losing support of the Trumkopfs that they will likely go along and do Arizona 2.0 but find even bigger clowns than the Cyber Ninjas (since everything is bigger in Texas).

    #2009862

    NEWS FLASH: Illegal votes don’t equal real votes. It’s quite amazing how this non-story is the front cover everywhere, and I got to give credit to whoever leaked that partial draft, guy is a genius. He/she leaked the hand count total, which did basically match up, but it does NOT speak to how many of those votes counted are illegal, double, ect… But of course the media ran with it claiming the audit confirmed bidens victory. This is a perfect example of what we call *fake news*. The real full and complete audit report comes out today at 4pm est. If the audit indeed confirms Bidens victory, I will say money well spent, and I am much more confident in the elections process. Let’s actually see what the audit says before we jump to conclusions.

    #2009880
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The audit did not find any irregularities.

    #2009886

    Reb E unless your working with cyber ninjas, you wouldn’t know this. The report wasn’t yet released.

    #2009898
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I heard it on the news.

    #2009904
    Health
    Participant

    TVOP -“If the audit indeed confirms Bidens victory, I will say money well spent, and I am much more confident in the elections process”

    You’re falling into the DemonCrat Trap!
    That’s Not where the Fraud Lies.

    From the News in Aug. 2021:
    “The Maricopa County Board of Supervisors and Dominion Voting Systems refused Monday to provide additional material requested in subpoenas from Republicans in the Arizona Senate.
    Arizona Senate President Karen Fann and Republican Senator Warren Petersen issued the subpoenas on July 26, seeking materials to help private contractors finish a controversial audit of Maricopa County’s November election ballots.
    The subpoena demanded that Maricopa County and Dominion provide routers that were used in the elections, security information for accessing tabulating machines, network data logs, mail-ballot envelopes, certain voter registration records and any records related to alleged data breaches around the time of the election.
    Maricopa County again refused to turn over its routers, citing possible security risks. Thomas Liddy, a county attorney, said that producing the equipment could expose “confidential data belonging to Maricopa County citizens” or make law enforcement’s communications’ infrastructure “extremely vulnerable to hackers.”
    Liddy also said that previous audits demonstrated the tabulation equipment was never connected to the Internet and that the county already, etc.”

    Why Not?
    The State Senate in Arizona can’t keep things private?
    Just because the US Congress and Senate have leakers doesn’t mean e/o in this country is.
    If you would have watched Lindell’s Documentary you’d know how they switched the Votes.
    Especially listen to Lamsland speech about Antrim County, Michigan.

    Trump won the 2020 election, but he is not going to fight for it, because this country will now know what it’s like to have a Lib Leader like Biden.
    I’ll give one example – how many American Soldiers were killed running out of Afghanistan, which we had previously under a Democratic Leadership there?!?

    #2009903

    Reb E I’m a bit slow, you trying to troll me?

    #2009911

    Health, last week the Maricopa board of supervisors and the Arizona senate reached an compromise regarding the routers. If the Arizona senate is happy with the agreement-which they are-then so am I.

    #2009913
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Tvop,

    I heard about it on the news also this morning before Ywn put it out (it seems like Ywn is the slow one)

    #2009917
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Coffee- TVOP stated that there were leaked documents released on handwritten ballot tallies. He said he is waiting to see what the audit says when it is released at 4. Then reb E jumped in on the same misread.
    😒

    #2009922

    Syag-thank you
    Coffee, Reb E, what the news reported is irrelevant. Pls reread my post.

    #2009926
    Health
    Participant

    TVOP -“If the Arizona senate is happy with the agreement-which they are-then so am I.”

    What you don’t understand is – the reason that the Senate is happy isn’t because they believe Trump lost Arizona, but the agreement is all about Money.

    So do you really care who Won the 2020 Presidential election?!?
    From AZCentral News:
    “The county provided the vast majority of what was requested. But they did not provide the county’s routers or copies of routers, which are not used to transfer election results. The county also did not provide certain administrative passwords to voting machines, saying they did not have them and the Senate would need to get them from Dominion Voting Systems.”

    That is the Key.
    Go listen to M. Lindell’s Documentary and Stop believing the Fake News!
    It was in the Dominion Election System that Trump lost the 2020 election.
    They switched the Votes.
    Lamsland makes a good point in the Documentary – if Nothing is connected to the Internet – how are election workers watching Movies when they are doing Tabulations?!?
    E/o saw that.
    The US is worse than Cuba or China!

    #2009985

    Health-the agreement was on a middleman viewing the data the Arizona senate was trying to gain access to. Just a quick question,if votes were switched, wouldn’t it have come up in the hand recount?

    #2010000
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Welp they’ve released the full report. The two key findings are that

    1. A hand recount confirms the official numbers and Biden won by 45,000 votes
    2. About 9,000 people who voted Democrat via ballots they received in the mail don’t list the addressed the ballots were sent to as their primary address

    Make of that what you will.

    #2010005

    Yserbius dunno what you’re talking about, pre audit, Biden won by 10.4k, after audit Biden won by 10.8k. The findings included a lot more than what you posted, now frankly I’m not sure what to make of any of it as I don’t understand the processes. Maricopa supposedly had answers for SOME of the problems in the reports, now the only way I can really see what is actually legit confirmed fraud at this point is to wait to see what the Arizona AG prosecutes, and how it plays out. Or if I just do some more research…
    Another point yserbius is that even if the fraud reduces the gap by just a few thousand, the audit only included Maricopa county, not the whole Arizona.

    #2010029

    Regardless of the legitimacy of the audits’ findings, the way the fake news media somehow got away with claiming that the audit “confirmed bidens victory”-especially before the full report was released- is incredibly disturbing, and it just perfectly explains why they’re called “fake news”.

    #2010065
    Health
    Participant

    TVOP -“Just a quick question,if votes were switched, wouldn’t it have come up in the hand recount?”

    Go watch M. Lindell’s Documentary.
    I can’t repeat the whole documentary for you!
    One thing that I’ll tell you is Trump won the Swing States by 2 different ways.
    Lindell first goes through each Swing State and shows how they counted Illegal Votes. He lists each illegal category & totals them up.
    Secondly, he brings in Lamsland to explain how the Computer Election Systems can & do change people’s Votes!

    Us Cons don’t care right now, because the Longer the DemonCrats are in Charge – the More Voters won’t continue to vote for DemonCrats! IE – Higher taxes, etc.

    #2010121
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    torahval, what is true is not fake news even if leaked.

    #2010128

    Reb E correct however that is not what makes it fake news. Overall the audit confirmed the ballot count but presented potential fraud that put a few tens of thousands of ballots in question. Can you tell me that therefore the audit confirmed bidens victory??? perhaps the ballots in question can indeed be answered up by Maricopa county (I have no idea at this point if they can) but the conclusion of the audit had a number of ballots in question, a number far greater than the margin. So when reporting on the audit you would report what I just said. NOT “gop-led audit confirmed bidens victory”. It’s simply a lie.

    #2010225
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @torahvaluesoverparty Cyber Ninjas is a cyber security group and they structured their report like a cyber security report. Which is great for me since I literally read reports like that for a living.

    First let me apologize, I wrote “Biden won by 45,000 votes” before checking the numbers. According to the Cyber Ninjas report, it was Trump 995,665 and Biden 1,040,774. This differs from the initial count by a few hundred votes on either side.

    The report details multiple findings that were investigated and ranked them from “Informational” to “Critical”. (In a standard security report, everything other than “High” and “Critical” is usually not considered problematic). The report showed one “Critical” and two “High” findings, totaling around 40,000 votes (of which only around 15,000 were votes for Democrat).

    Each finding showed a breakdown of how many votes it affected and what those votes were for. In almost every finding, the votes came out to about the same percentages as the final tally. So even if you would take every single finding super seriously and discount each and every vote that the issue affected, you would be throwing out around nine Republican votes for every ten Democrat votes (plus a few Libertarian and “Other”) . The final tally would be a few tens of thousands of votes less, but Biden would still be ahead.

    I haven’t had a chance to read the stuff in the report about the voting machines, so I’ll comment when I get to that.

    #2010263

    Yserbius The official count is Biden-1,672,143 and Trump 1,661,686. But this is Arizona as a whole, I’m assuming Cyber Ninjas is talking about Maricopa County. Now bear in mind if instead of losing Maricopa county by 45k, Trump loses by 33k, Trump wins Arizona. Now I wasn’t sure what you were saying, did the report show an exact count of Trump vs Biden ballots in question? I’m not following your cheshbon.

    #2010280
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @torahvaluesoverparty That’s not how US presidential elections work. If Trump would have lost the county by less votes, he still would have lost the county and the electoral vote still go to Biden. Even though in this hypothetical situation most Arizonians would have voted Trump, the electoral system would still give the state to Biden.

    The Cyber Ninjas report showed an exact count of Trump and Biden votes in Maricopa and the result was still a win for Biden by about 45,000 votes.

    OK, now on to the voting machines. Now, I know this is going to disappoint a lot of you, @Health in particular, but none of the hacking claims pushed by Lindell and his ilk were mentioned. I think that’s part of the reason why they buried it in the second half of the report with far fewer pretty diagrams and charts.

    The major findings focused on missing data, specifically a hard drive that was wiped and a series pictures of scans of ballots that was corrupted and unreadable. Other than that, they had reams of data and devices which they used to pull all sorts of logs and images from. They showed, for instance, that one device attempted to make a connection to Microsoft and Google during the time it was supposed to be used for voting. The report is trying to make the missing data out to be a lot more nefarious than it probably is, “The data is missing so that’s where the proof must be hidden”. They even spend several pages detailing all the devices that they were unable to get access to or devices that were wiped when the got them.

    So there’s really no smoking gun. Just a whole lot of literal nothing.

    #2010326

    Yserbius actually I’m pretty sure that is how US election works. Whoever wins the state count wins all the electoral votes from that state. Individual counties are meaningless. If trumps loss in Maricopa county is reduced to 33k, that means he wins the state count. Now again, I wasn’t understanding your cheshbon in reducing this amount from Biden in ratio to this amount from trump…

    #2010334
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @torahvaluesoverparty You’re right about the electoral college, that was my mistake mixing up how the country elects a president vs how a state determines their electors.

    The rest of my comment still stands, though. Trump would need 10,000 votes over Biden to win. But nothing in the audit report even came close to that. The biggest batches of “questionable” votes were still proportionately a mixture of Democrat, Republican, and other. So throwing those out won’t even change the final popular vote.

    #2010337

    K so that’s what Im trying to ask you, how do you know what the proportion is? How do you know it’s not mostly democrat votes that aren’t thrown out? Frankly I don’t understand why the audit report didn’t include an exact count…also you have to realize that even if the 10k gap isn’t completely closed from the Maricopa audit, there are other counties in Arizona….

    #2010865
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @torahvaluesoverparty The full details of the report I found on a site called azfamily dotcom (“Full Report: Cyber Ninja’s results on election audit”) which links to a document titled “Maricopa County Forensic Election Audit Volume III: Result Details”. It includes exact counts for every single finding which shows a proportional amount of D and R votes in each finding.

    And we aren’t going to talk about other counties, because of a comment very early on in this thread:

    I know that if the R’s in Maricopa complete the audit to their satisfaction, and come up with nothing, I personally will be far more confident the election overall was secure.

    The R’s completed the audit in Maricopa to their satisfaction and came up with nothing. So why aren’t you confident in the security of the election and are now worrying about places that aren’t Maricopa?

    #2010989

    Yserbius First of all I wasn’t aware of the information you shared. So thank you for that. How do you know that I wouldn’t be more confident in the elections now that I know this information? Ok the truth is i’m still not, thanks to the very information you shared with me. If I’m understanding correctly-and I may not be, please correct me if I’m not-the report didn’t include an exact breakdown of how many “fake” votes went to Biden vs Trump. It showed from which party they came from. Which may be a good indicator, and probably is. If we were to assume that it is indeed a good indicator, then from ballots from categories that were 2 of the top levels of concern, “Critical/High”, according to my math, 1,895 more “fake” votes went for Biden than went for Trump. This does not include the nearly 9k votes that came from “prefer not to declare” group of ballots. This also does not include an additional 5295 ballots listed as concern level “high” which for some reason does not give a breakdown by party. And as I’ve said previously, we don’t need to close the entire 10k gap from just the Maricopa audit. There are other counties in Arizona. So if fraud is shown in Maricopa-even if less than the margin-it’s self understood that we need to audit the other counties. Pls correct me if i’m misunderstanding the report, or if your math showed a different conclusion. Because as I understand it, what the audit revealed, is hardly “nothing”.

    #2011083
    Health
    Participant

    Yesr -“Now, I know this is going to disappoint a lot of you, @Health in particular, but none of the hacking claims pushed by Lindell and his ilk were mentioned. I think that’s part of the reason why they buried it in the second half of the report with far fewer pretty diagrams and charts.”

    That’s funny!
    You have No clue what they are.
    The change occurs overseas.
    This was proven in Michigan.

    #2011079
    jackk
    Participant

    The audit revealed that they were unable to find a single instance of evidence of fraud.

    Because there was no fraud.

    That is why the media , including fox news, correctly declared that the report verified that Biden won Arizona.

    The millions of dollars that trump supporters paid cyber ninjas to produce the report was for 2 purposes – to perpetuate the Big Lie that former President Trump won the 2020 election, and even more insidiously, to delegitimize undesired outcomes in future elections. (Hint: that is why Trump will run again because he can’t lose.)

    This has been stated multiple times on this thread.

    #2011093

    Jackk now you’ve definitely convinced me🙄 Quick question do you have an actual response to my post?

    #2011120
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @torahvaluesoverparty

    You have to think of it like a statistician. Sure more Democrat votes were in the findings than Republican votes, that’s simply because more people voted Democrat than Republican.

    Let me explain it this way. Let’s say there were 100 people who voted. 45 voted for Trump and 55 voted for Biden. Biden wins by 10 votes, or about 10%. Then someone comes in and says that a randomly selected batch of twenty votes were bad. 11 of them were for Biden and 9 for Trump. Which makes sense since a random selection will have more Biden votes than Trump votes. Now the final tally is 44 for Biden and 36 for Trump. Biden is still ahead by about 10% of the vote.

    That’s what’s happening here. Take the first finding, the Cyber Ninjas wanted to invalidate a batch of 23,344 votes. Out of those, 9,220 went to Biden and 7703 went to Trump. Taking all that into account with the total 2,000,000 votes, Biden will still be ahead by about 2%.

    #2011150

    Yserbius I understand what you are saying but-
    The % of “fake” ballots that went for Biden compared to the % that went for Trump is larger than the % of biden’s victory in the overall vote count. Biden won 49.4% vs Trump 49%. According to audit, of those 23k bad votes, Biden owns 53.7% vs Trump 44.8%. Now we can go a lot further into the number crunching but I feel like its dumb because a lot of this is speculation, as we don’t know how the “prefer not to say” ballots break, and we frankly don’t know for sure (yet) which way the above ballots break. We also don’t about those 5295 in the other “High” category. And on top of all this, you can’t take the percentage of bad votes for Biden/Trump and apply to the full Arizona ballot count. Because once we see that fraud can be committed on such a significant amount of ballots, who’s to say that fraud in a different county isn’t more lopsided?

    #2011151

    And furthermore, even if we audit everything and find that after all the tens of thousands of bad ballots are removed, Biden’s victory stands, can you still tell me that the election was secure???

    #2011241
    jackk
    Participant

    TVAP,
    I was answering your accusation that the media lied when it said that the results showed that Biden won by a bigger margin.

    What else do you want me to answer?
    The supposed issues brought up by cyber ninjas have all been answered by Maricopa County.
    Many of it is actually very embarrassing to CyberNinjas since they show that CN’s do not know how elections legally work and are run in this country for 243 years.

    I am not answering hypotheticals. If you believe in hypotheticals there was never a need for the audit.
    The election was secure and was testified to and validated by multiple audits before CN was called in.
    I can only say what every other outsider can say about Maricopa County and other places – the people responsible for running the election are 100% sure that the election was secure.
    They are so positive, that even though as republicans they wanted Trump to win, they told him and his cohorts to jump in the lake when they were being pressured. The Justice Department did the same.
    Cyber Ninja found no evidence of fraud. They validated the election for Biden.
    A few lawyers have been sanctioned and might even lose their licenses to practice law because they brought baloney lawsuits.

    #2011294

    Jackk Yes the media did lie, not because they reported that CN’s count confirmed Biden’s lead, but because they reported that the audit overall confirmed Biden’s victory. That is FALSE. Whether or not CN’s claims have any legitimacy, their audit, from their perspective, put tens of thousands of ballots in question. Again, whether or not their claims are legitimate is IRRELEVANT to the conclusions of the audit! If you want to correctly report on the audit, and you don’t believe any of their claims, then you report in a way that indicates there are claims, you don’t totally ignore the claims. Now as for Maricopa responding to all the claims, 2 points: I went to Justthefacts . vote where Maricopa County officially answers all the claims, and I don’t see them address CN’s top claims. And besides, one thing is for sure, Maricopa County was always gonna come up with some sort of answer, legitimate or not, and as i’ve said previously, I have no idea how any of these things work, and i’m just gonna wait to see what the Arizona AG prosecutes.

    #2011321
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @torahvaluesoverparty Again, statistics. You can’t expect that the percentages are going to be exact, there’s going to be discrepancies give or take about five to ten percent, (unless you’re dealing with astronomically high sample and population sizes). Furthermore in Maricopa County, Biden won 49% of the vote compared to Trump’s 47%, not 49-49. So a sample of the votes only differed by less than 5% which is well within the expected range.

    You’re right, we can’t know for sure that all registered D voted Biden, all registered R voted Trump, plus the “prefer not to say”. But we absolutely can make an educated estimate based on about a million different factors. And that estimate says that the numbers are close enough.

    You keep referring to the Cyber Ninjas’ findings as “fraud” and “bad ballots”, but even by their own report that’s not true. It’s simply minor errors and discrepancies that don’t really mean anything in the long term. Like what were their big issues, ballots were sent to the wrong address? Ballots without the voters full name on it? I highly doubt that a similar audit performed on any other county in the world will find anything radically different.

    #2011415

    Yserbius Im saying “bad” ballots for arguments sake, the point of our conversation is assuming that they are “Bad” and shouldn’t be counted. Whether or not they are really “bad” remains to be seen. I’m not sure why you refer to them as “minor errors”, and “discrepancies”. If they were supposed to be thrown out, then it may have swung the election. That’s not “minor”.
    -The 49-49 number was Arizona overall, but I do understand that do find a more expected outcome when looking at distributing “bad” ballots in Maricopa county, you would look at the percentage breakdown in just Maricopa county. However i’m not sure what your trying to say “So a sample of the votes only differed by less than 5% which is well within the expected range.” Because if we were to see that fraud has the ability to be committed, even if the fraud distribution percentage is in line exactly with the vote total percentage, the gap still closes. Now true that if we were to apply that percentage of fraud to the entire Arizona, Biden’s lead would hold, but as I said before, once we see that fraud was committed, who is to say that fraud in a different county isn’t more lopsided? To state my point stronger, even if more fraud ballots belonged to Trump, there still remains a possibility that fraud was committed in a different county that benefitted biden to a degree that swung the entire state. Once fraud is discovered, all bets are off.

    #2011705
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @torahvaluesoverparty Not the whole Arizona, just Maricopa County. Don’t start goalpost movements. You’re essentially admitting that the Maricopa audit found nothing but won’t change your opinion because maybe a different county that wasn’t audited had more issues. I don’t know, why stop there? Maybe Trump won with 85% of the vote because every city, state, and county in the US didn’t spend three months meticulously detailing every wrong address a ballot was sent to, you can’t prove it wrong!

    The “bad” ballots were the issues that crop up when dealing with two million humans. The largest batch of “bad” ballots had the issue that they were sent to the wrong address. If I had two million letters to send out and only less than 2% were addressed wrong, I would call that a resounding success. So no, you can’t just throw them out. And even if you could, Biden would still have a lead.

    The audit proves nothing and strongly indicates there was no fraud and there’s zero evidence that fraud was committed anywhere else. Can we please put this to rest?

    #2011736
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Yserbius (and maybe Jackk as well) – My personal disclaimer — You know that I was a trump supporter (tho not him personally…) and I have trouble forgiving anyone for thinking this is now a better option. plus I have seen the scary lengths people on high have gone to keep trump out of office (not saying they didn’t feel justified, just saying things were done).

    Given all that as my personal position…… I do believe that it would be perfectly probable that the elections were rigged because people hated trump ‘that much’ and considered it a “we must protect our contry at all costs” situation.

    Given that position as well…. If I am told that Biden was legitimately found to have won, I have no problem accepting it. BUT – when you say that no fraud was found, or that the elections were all honest and fair, well I have to say you are nuts. I have been living in Chicago far too long to believe that there are honest and fair elections anywhere. Perhaps Biden won the election fairly, perhaps not, we may never know and frankly I couldn’t care less. But to say that no fraud was found? please…

    #2011759
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @syag-lchochma I get that and respect your opinion. But, on the other hand, this was a very closely watched election and this was an extremely intensive and detailed audit. The fact that nothing was found significant enough to warrant a second look (much less overturn the election) should be a pretty big indication that any fraud that was committed probably had little effect on who won.

    #2011899

    Yserbius that’s ridiculous, I’m not fauci’ing any goalposts, and I’m not admitting anything. As I’ve said, i’m not knowledgeable on election protocols, and I can’t say with any degree of certainty that these ballots were bad. But if they were, this tiny little batch of ballots was more then 2x necessary to swing the election. And if it comes out that these ballots absolutely should have been thrown out, then we see that election fraud was committed. Thats not called cyber ninjas finding nothing. I don’t know what’s so complicated.

    #2011943
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @torahvaluesoverparty First off, the goalpost movement was you mentioning other counties. We are not discussing other counties nor other states. What we are discussing is whether the Cyber Ninja audit of Maricopa County proves enough fraud to swing Arizona to Trump or not.

    We can’t hold a conversation like this when you keep fudging the facts. No, this tiny little batch of ballots was not more than 2x necessary to swing the election. It wasn’t even close. Unless the insanely unlikely circumstances occurred where each and every voter, whether registered Republican, Democrat, or other, was for Biden.

    Second, even if there’s an agreement to throw out these ballots, there’s still no evidence of anything worse than some address mistakes. I don’t know how you are drawing the line from “A bunch of ballots were sent to the wrong addresses” to “there was definitely fraud committed”.

    #2011945
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “this was a very closely watched election and this was an extremely intensive and detailed audit. ”

    Now you’re kinda veering into the speculation, not quite supported by fact realm so we’re parting ways here. My point was just that you can feel free to say they didn’t find enough fraud to swing the election, but there has probably never been a fraudless election anywhere so saying so kinda dampens the credibility.

    #2011968
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @syag-lchochma The only speculation I see is from those who keep saying that they speculate how there may have been enough fraud to swing the election. Since we have yet to see any evidence of fraud on such a massive scale, we are forced to conclude that there was in all likelihood no more fraud than usual, probably on both sides cancelling each other out.

    #2011976

    Yserbius, “First off, the goalpost movement was you mentioning other counties. We are not discussing other counties nor other states. What we are discussing is whether the Cyber Ninja audit of Maricopa County proves enough fraud to swing Arizona to Trump or not.”
    -I’m sorry but this is sheer stupidity and you know it. No the audit isn’t about seeing whether the potential amount of fraud in just Maricopa would swing the result. I never said that and your putting words into my mouth. And the reason I never said that is because that just doesn’t make any sense. The goal of the audit was to see if any sort of serious discrepancies or “errors” existed. I said in the beginning of the thread ” I know that if the R’s in Maricopa complete the audit to their satisfaction, and come up with nothing, I personally will be far more confident the election overall was secure”. Tens of thousands of votes that should not have counted is not nothing. Especially considering the margin was that small. While it’s true that Trump likely owned a significant percentage of these ballots, thats not he point, and if your making that the point then your missing the boat. Because fraud (sorry, minor errors…) on such a yes-large and significant amount of ballots is unacceptable. And yes of course if it’s confirmed that these ballots should have been thrown out, then no matter who this benefits more, trump or biden, the BOTTOM LINE IS-Cyber Ninjas did not “come up with nothing”. In this event we should audit every last county in every last swing state.

    #2012132
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @torahvaluesoverparty You’ve repeatedly said comments along the lines of “OK that’s fine for Maricopa, but what about the other counties?”. If nothing is found in Maricopa which, if memory serves correctly, has over half the votes of the entire Arizona, the likelihood of 10,000 fraudulent votes being “found” in the other districts is astronomically low. So there’s really no purpose in talking hypotheticals about the rest of AZ.

    Anyhoo, on to the main point. You keep on discussing the “bad” ballots as if there’s no question that they were fraudulent. You have yet to address the fact that the vast majority of these are considered “bad” merely because they were possibly sent to the wrong address. (The issue was that the database the Cyber Ninjas used and the database the county used to look up addresses had discrepancies in about 2% of the addresses, so there’s no guarantee which database was more correct). And while I agree that it was very close and every bit counts, at the end of the day it was still less than 2% of the total ballots that were “bad” which is an incredibly small number and far more reasonable to chalk up to error than fraud.

    #2012162
    jackk
    Participant

    Syag,

    Nobody is disagreeing that there is fraud in American elections, even in this election.
    The issue is whether there was a MASSIVE conspiracy to defraud the American people in the 2020 Presidential election by pulling off a MONUMENTAL scheme to fraudulently make Biden the winner of the electoral college – including states that are run by Republicans like Georgia – by him winning 8 of the 13 battleground states – excluding the 5 others – Florida, Iowa, North Carolina, Ohio, and Texas.

    The more likely scenario is that this was a normal American election where more people voted for Biden than for Trump in those 8 states whereas in the other 5 more people voted for Trump over Biden.

    The Trump doctrine, which he stated even before the 2016 election, is that he does not accept election results that he does not like. So it does not surprise me that many republicans have followed this doctrine to it’s violent and criminal conclusion on January 6th of attacking the Capitol.

    #2012176
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “Nobody is disagreeing that there is fraud in American elections, even in this election.”

    good, then we are in agreement. Yserbius (I couldn’t remember if it was you too or just he) said a few times that there was no fraud in this election, that there was found to be no fraud etc. When you exaggerate the facts, it diminishes your credibility as a “reporter”. I was just telling him to stop saying it if he wanted us to think his statements were actually founded in truth.

    “The issue is whether there was a MASSIVE conspiracy”

    I know what your issues were, I wasn’t addressing them at all. As I said, I just think it is important to present facts as they are. He tends to embellish facts and then wonders why nobody is taking him at his word so I was hoping to give him a helpful hint.

    “criminal conclusion on January 6th of attacking the Capitol.”

    hmm…this sounds vaguely familiar…was this part of that steele dossier thing?

    just kidding. really. totally not going back to the trump talks.

    #2012214
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @syag-lchochma A handful of cases of fraud (some committed by Republicans and some by Democrats) have been found. Not nearly enough to turn the election. There’s probably a bit more out there that hasn’t been found.

    The fact remains that after an unprecedented massive investigation into the Maricopa County elections, they have not found a single case of definite fraud.

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