Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha

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  • #1408009

    Joseph
    Participant

    As per request by “ChabadShlucha” to open a new thread where she indicated she’ll respond to these, what she described as “valid questions” that she’d love to address, here it is:

    1) What is the disagreement between the Lubavitcher “meshichists” and the Lubavitcher non-meshichists?

    2) Do all Lubavitchers believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach?

    3) Do you believe the Rebbe is Moshiach?

    “770Chabad” wrote (in reply to the above, in the original thread) “Some people (tzfati to be exact) believe the rebbe is alive bigashmious while everyone else believes he’s alive beruchnious.”

    DaasYochid replied to her, asking: “More alive than Dovid Hamelech? Rashi? Rav Moshe Feinstein?”

    #1408112

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    i have friends that are mishichits and not . they are friends with eachother too.
    and MOST mishichits are quiet about it. meaning they dont go around wearin a degel or waving one either.

    #1408195

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Great glad you took me up on it:) so in order to properly address this we need to understand some background knowledge so that we’re speaking the same language when I use a term. Feel free to ask on anything I say.

    1) when Lubavitchers say “tzaddik”that are usually referring to tzaddik as is defined by Tanya. Namely, an individual who either has an inactive or drugged yetzer Hara (tzaddik vra lo) or no yetzer Hara at all (tzaddik vtov lo).

    But regardless, a tzaddik has no personal struggles with bad

    #1408205

    K-cup
    Participant

    Are there leading mishichist rabbaim, that are respected scholars that really write about and defend their position?

    #1408285

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @KCup, there are several. But you will notice that the vast majority of Lubavitcher Rabbanim and serious Talmidei Chachamim are non meshichist (what’s popularly called “anti”). I’m not going to name names of different Rabbanim here, but you can find that out yourself.

    #1408364

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Inactive yetzer hara or no Yetzer hara at all. Hmmm. Please explain kol hagadol machaveiro yitzro gadol mimenu. Also, please explain the taana on Dovid Hamelech when he said “Libi chalal b’kirbi.”

    #1408367

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    There is no reason why the tzibur must “choose’ between those who believe the rebbe is/was/will be moishiach, those who feel such beliefs are apikorsus and the large percentage of yidden who don’t know/don’t care as long as z’man moisiach is sooner rather than later. And to those who expect to see a guy wearing a white kitel riding a white donkey along the Belt Parkway headed to 770, yasher koach for “keeping the faith” since there are at least a few equally passionate yidden (including several here in the CR) who think you are looney tunes but nonetheless will embrace you as “achenu kol yisroel”…

    #1408371

    slominer
    Participant

    Chabadshlucha/770Chabad – What is tht underlying disagreement between the two sides disputing over control of 770?

    #1408380

    GAON
    Participant

    “when Lubavitchers say “tzaddik”that are usually referring to tzaddik as is defined by Tanya.”

    You mean in terms of צדיק גמור” vs בינוני..

    Now, is there a difference between a צדיק and ‘צדיק גמור’ in terms of the Tanya as well….

    Meaning, based on the Tanya’s level of Tzadik (i.e. לבי חלל בקרבי) is there a possibility of any level of “completeness” above צדיק to צדיק גמור?

    #1408363

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    As there have so far been no questions on the first term- tzaddik, I’ll move on to the next one- the Zohar says, “Ispashtusa dMoshe bchol Dara vdara,” there is an extension of Moshe Rabbeinu in every generation.

    Chassidus explains this in many places to mean that every generation has a tzaddik (see above) who is the Moshe Rabbeinu for that generation. Just like the original Moshe Rabbeinu, all the needs, physical and spiritual, come through this tzaddik.

    There is another intertwined concept that all the neshamos are like a body. The neshamos not affected at all on their journey down to the world are the head and brain of klal Yisrael- our tzaddikim and leaders. The lowest neshamos, or the ones most affected by their journey, become the least spiritually in tune Jews- they have a hard time connecting to their neshama and connecting to Hashem. They are compared to the feet. Following this ever neshama has it’s place in the “body” of knesses yisrael, and just like the brain directs the body our leaders for. Just as the brain is the same essence as the father’s brain- the head neshamos are the ones most similar to Hashem’s Chochma.

    And it is through these neshamos that everyone else gets their spiritual life force.

    This and more is explained in perek beis of Tanya, the tzaddik concept is in perek aleph.

    So far nothing controversial, this is like chassidus 101 and well known to I would think all lubavitchers. Any questions?

    #1408397

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I have a question about your definition of tzaddik. How do you reconcile it with “אין צדיק בארץ אשר יעשה טוב ולא יחטא”?

    #1408398

    GAON
    Participant

    MW,

    “please explain the taana on Dovid Hamelech when he said “Libi chalal b’kirbi.””

    The Tanya explains it:
    “שאין לו יצה”ר כי הרגו בתענית “

    #1408415

    litvisherchossid
    Participant

    The dispute has to do with who controls 770. Meshichists or the antis. There had even been a plaque by the cornerstone at the entrance that had the Rebbes name with zy”a but some “angels” destroyed it so now it doesn’t say that anymore.

    Basically the ones who were left in charge of chabad/770 is merkos led by Yehuda Krinsky who is one of the latest of the Rebbes secretaries. But of course the majority only follow the Rebbes instructions when they see fit, and they just could not accept that order which came straight from the Rebbe himself. Aside for other documents which were made to disappear.
    In general there is a lot of confusion in Crown Heights and the BT’s get hit the worst and also become most extreme whether it’s becoming ultra meshichist or “super chabad” and can’t stop talking about misnagdim and that lubavitchers are such victims. But hey, we all have our flaws….when I say we I mean everyone but chabad obviously.

    #1408487

    GAON
    Participant

    Daas,
    As per Tanya, I think he explains that there are two terms of Tzadik one is in terms of Madrega/level and one is on acts i.e. as he explains:

    והא דאמרינן בעלמא דמחצה על מחצה מקרי בינוני ורוב זכויות מקרי צדיק, הוא שם המושאל לענין שכר ועונש, לפי שנדון אחר רובו, ומקרי צדיק בדינו מאחר שזוכה בדין. אבל לענין אמיתת שם התואר והמעלה של מעלת ומדרגות חלוקות צדיקים ובינונים, אמרו רז”ל: צדיקים יצר טוב שופטן, שנאמר: “ולבי חלל בקרבי”, שאין לו יצר הרע כי הרגו בתענית.

    Perhaps that is how he will explain the above.. or its all relatively speaking. How would you explain David HaMelach “sinning” as per Tanya?

    #1408503

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Perhaps that is how he will explain the above.. or its all relatively speaking.

    אין צדיק means there isn’t a tzaddik (who doesn’t sin), not that a lower level tzaddik doesn’t sin.

    #1408516

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @DaasYochid,
    “אין צדיק means there isn’t a tzaddik (who doesn’t sin), not that a lower level tzaddik doesn’t sin.”
    That’s very flawed logic. Anyone who’s learned a Gemara or Tosfos will tell you that such rational is a very classic way of answering seeming contradictions or discrepancies in Torah.

    #1408518

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It’s the simple reading of the passuk, it has nothing to do with logic.

    #1408540

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @daas yochid @gaon I remember learning, Chet can mean chisaron, meaning for their level, more was expected of them, not that it was an actual aveira. As with Dovid hamelech, the gemara clearly testifies that he didn’t soon with Batsheva, but nevertheless, more was expected of him and he failed the test so to speak.

    Glad there is input an feedback. When my two posts are completely clarified, I’ll be happy to move on.

    #1408544

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @midwesterner as for your first question of yitzro gadol heimenu” I haven’t yet seen that addressed inside. My thoughts would be that it is addressing people who have not yet reached the level of tzaddik. As even a beinoni is a very lofty level. According to the Tanya definitions, if someone does only one aveira, it even doesn’t prevent someone else (if they were able) they are still classified as arasha vtov lo. If they have no regret at all, CVS, they’d be a rasha vra lo. A beinoni is a person who struggles inside but is always in control of themselves, and with the hello of Hashem, always makes the right decision. All we can get to with our own efforts is to a Beinoni. And that is probably what that maamar chazal is referring to. The level of tzaddik is a gift from Hashem, as we cannot control our feelings, only our thought, speech and action, and as it is a gift, he doesn’t need to contend with his yetzer anymore, as Dovid hamelech said, vlibi cholol bikirbi.

    #1408576

    GAON
    Participant

    Daas,

    “אין צדיק means there isn’t a tzaddik (who doesn’t sin), not that a lower level tzaddik doesn’t sin.”

    Of course that is the pashut pshat in the pasuk. The Tanya is certainly not the simple and logic pshat.
    Otherwise it wouldn’t be a “Chidush”.

    Keep in mind, the definition of Beneni per the Ba’al haTanya is certainly a new created pshat – he is the first one to claim so.

    #1408575

    GAON
    Participant

    ” As with Dovid hamelech, the gemara clearly testifies that he didn’t soon [sin]”

    That is the point – the term “sin” mentioned in that case has to be interpret in a diff way…

    #1408574

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @DaasYochid,
    If you’d be intellectually honest with yourself, you’d realize the fallacy of your argument. Go open a Gemara, and look how a classic stira between the gemaras statement and a possuk is resolved. Many times, it’ll be “the Tanna is speaking about this, and the possuk means this”. I’m not making chiddushim here, this is basic Jewish literacy.

    #1408565

    gavriel613
    Participant

    Question about the process: are you aiming to describe what meshichists believe in a way which makes it seem possible/plausible. Or are you going to also explain why they would actually decide to believe such a thing.

    I.e. there are plenty of things which are plausible, but which there is no real reason to believe; such things are called speculation and generally considered a waste of time. E.g. perhaps there are aliens

    So are you going to simply try to explain why it is plausible and not “op gefreckt” – or are you also going to explain why on earth a rational person would want to believe this? Because even if you can do the former I doubt you can do the latter.

    thanks

    #1408577

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    A tzaddik is someone who overcame his yetzer hats and never did a sin.

    #1408604

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Of course that is the pashut pshat in the pasuk. The Tanya is certainly not the simple and logic pshat.

    So, I’m asking how he learns the פסוק.

    Sechel Hayashar, I’m well aware of how stiros are answered. I don’t see how you are answering in way which fits the pasuk.

    Essentially, you are reading it as follows:

    (There are two types of tzadikim: those who don’t do aveiros, and those who do.) Of those tzadikim who do aveiros, none of them don’t do aveiros.

    #1408612

    SMFG3
    Participant

    QUESTION: WHY IS THIS ANY DIFFERENT THAN THE SHABSAI TZVI SAGA of the 1600s?

    #1408620

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    @gavriel613 I will aim to do both. I think most times this within is brought up, it is brought up as a baiting attack where the person isn’t really looking for an answer, that’s why I said I’ll only answer if I see there is some real interest, i.e. we open a new thread and people are willing to sit through the process.

    I see the tzaddik has been digested, has the extension of Moshe Rabbeinu bit been understood? Haven’t heard any feedback on that yet, and as that is term 2, I will need that to be understood before I can move on

    #1408621

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    A tzaddik is someone who overcame his yetzer hats and never did a sin.

    Chazal say there were three people who never did a sin.

    Also, according to the way the Tanya is being quoted here, they don’t even have a yetzer hora.

    #1408632

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    QUESTION: WHY IS THIS ANY DIFFERENT THAN THE SHABSAI TZVI SAGA of the 1600s?

    That’s what hopefully CS is getting to.

    #1408639

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    And each and every tzaddik has a piece of Moshe rabbeinus neshama just like us with hashem Cheilek Elo-kah meemaal maamish

    #1408642

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And each and every tzaddik has a piece of Moshe rabbeinus neshama just like us

    Just like us? So this part is universal, not just tzadikim?

    #1408647

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    The part that’s universal is that we all have a breakfast, which at it’s core, is one with Hashem

    #1408650

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    When people claim that their messiah is a man whom they say is alive but the evidence disagrees, there are problems.

    #1408655

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Concept number three: Moshiach shebador, bchezkas Moshiach, Moshiach vadai

    Moshiach shebador means that in every generation there is an individual, (actually this individual is also the Moshe Rabbeinu of the dor) who, if the generation is worthy, will be revealed as Moshiach. Ie he has the potential to become Moshiach if that generation merits it, an if they do, he will merit the neshama of Moshiach.

    Bchezkas Moshiach: this is straight up Rambam, hilchos melachim prakim 11-12 if I’m not mistaken. The Rambam defines who can be a candidate to be Moshiach, ie bchezkas Moshiach, ie if he fulfills the four criteria the Rambam states, then he is considered “Moshiach elect”

    If he fulfills a further four conditions then we can be certain he is Moshiach, hence the term Moshiach vadai.

    This is important to understand because a litvak will hear a lubavitcher mention Moshiach and automatically assume he means Moshiach vadai, when he could have just as easily meant Moshiach shebador or bchezkas Moshiach.

    #1408656

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    *neshama, not breakfast:)

    #1408657

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Yes I will get to that iyh

    #1408658

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    Fine
    ….. just like , us with hashem
    Hope this is clearer

    #1408671

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    So we’re up to number four and then I’m done for today will check back tomorrow and continue iyh:

    The Mission Statement:
    The Lubavitcher Rebbe, on the night he agreed to become Rebbe, (he had refused to be Rebbe an entire year since the Previous Rebbe was nistalek) which was yud shvat tof shin yud aleph, said over a fascinating Maamar. Now what’s a maamar? A sicha is a talk, usually on a topic of parsha, a Rambam, medrash or gemara. Interesting, inspiring, more on the lighter side (although you need a head to follow the shakla vtarya sichos).

    A maamar is “Shechina medaberes mitoch grono shel Moshe” literally a revelation from Above, and the Rebbe who says it over has to hold onto something physical to keep his neshama from escaping his body (Our Rebbe would hold a handkerchief.) They are deeper concepts than sichos usually centered around achdus Hashem. There is a special tune chassidim sing before a maamar is said, and the Rebbe says it in a different tone than a sicha.
    Only a Rebbe can say a maamar.

    So the Rebbe said his first Maamar on the night he accepted the nesius and there he said many important things- he also revealed our generation’s mission.

    He explained that we are the seventh generation since the Alter Rebbe, (counting generations by Rebbe), and as kol hashviin chavivin, even if we’re not worthy, and even if we don’t want to, we have a unique mission:

    Just like the shechina was down in this world and then through the Chet etz hadaas it left this world and went up a heaven, and every subsequent big aveira, like kayin, the generation of enosh etc as enumerated in midrash, it went up another heaven until the shechina was removed all seven heavens from this Earth.

    Then Avrahom avinu brought it down from the seventh heaven to the sixth, Yitzchak Avinu from the sixth to the fifth etc until the seventh, Moshe Rabbeinu was zoche to bring it back down to Earth by Matan Torah. Why him? Because he was seventh and sevens have a special zechus.

    Unfortunately Chet haegel happened and it left shortly after etc.

    And now, we are the seventh generation since the Alter Rebbe. Every generation has it’s Mission and the mission of our generation is to bring the shechina down! To bring Moshiach!

    #1408702

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So basically, the Rebbe declared himself Moshiach from day one.

    #1408723

    K-cup
    Participant

    Daas yochid, you think like a meshichist

    #1408745

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    It’s also amazing to see the difference between a maaser and a sicha.
    A sicha everyone is sitting the rebbe is looking straight / st people. And it’s a talking tune.

    Maamer is said in a different tune and everyone is standing and the rebbes eyes are closed and he’s holding a handkerchief because the rebbe needs to hold something physical to prevent Klios Hanefesh like shlichis said .

    #1408746

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    We’re the first generation of moshiach !

    #1408752

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    We’re the first generation of moshiach !

    Do you think moshiach has arrived?

    #1408755

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @DaasYochid,
    I failed to draw such conclusions from ChabadShluchas summary of some points of the maamar, or the actual maamar itself.
    @chabadshlucha, I agree with most of want you’re saying besides one thing. “Moshiach Shebador” isn’t a halachic concept, it’s not based on the Rambam, so it’s not the greatest point to bring in an argument. Secondly, nowhere does it says that the משה שבדור is משיח שבדור. Saying it will not help you prove you point. I don’t understand why you are seemingly trying to validate or legitimise beliefs that are based on emotion, not intellect through logic.

    If I were trying to defend or explain it, I would simply say, that Chassidim believe that their Rebbe was the most worthy of being Moshiach, were he to come in his time. Such belief is no novelty, it’s seen in the Gemara, and in past generations there were other Chassidim who believed this about their Rebbe, (such as Vizhnitz).

    To conclude, never ever, not even once did the rebber ever declare or otherwise insinuate that he was Moshiach. ( Once, Rabbi L Groner, a secretary of the Rebbe handed the Rebbe a letter which had been received and was addressed to “Moshiach”, the Rebbe said “I’ll give it to him when he comes”.

    That said, if someone chooses to believe that the Rebbe or any Rebbe is Moshiach, that doesn’t make him a Kofer or anything. It may be foolish to believe so after his passing, but definitely isn’t assur in any way, shape or form.

    #1408758

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    A couple of broad questions (from someone with a very Litvish way of thinking):
    1. You called these concepts “chassidus 101” which means that they are true for all chassidus, and are not just Chabad/tanya tenets? If so, then all chassidim have the concept of tzadddik. Presumably, every group will believe that their Rebbe is a tzaddik. You stated that the tzaddik has the neshama of Moshe Rabbeinu, and every generation has one. But if every group has a tzaddik, then every group has its Moshe Rabbeinu? Or are some Rebbes/Tzaddikim bigger than others, and the rest are just imposters (no disrespect to any Rebbe meant, just trying to understand how this fits the bigger picture). Along a similar vein, when you quoted from the Rebbe that he was the 7th generation, implying that like the Avos, each Rebbe brought the shechina down one level, with the last Rebbe having the mission to complete the process and bring Mashiach, my question is: what about all the other great Tzaddikim/Rebbeim thru the generations outside of the chain of Chabad- they were not capable of this too? why exclude the Besht and the Maggid of Mezeritch and Rav Shmelke and the Noam Elimelech, just to name a famous few?
    2. I think you are saying that being a tzaddik is not a process a person can do himself, as you call it a gift from Hashem. It is not that someone worked on himself to get to this level, but that Hashem chooses a leader in each generation and bestows on him the level of Tzaddik. Would that be correct? Does that explain the Rebbe hierarchy (in any chassidus)- how automatically a son/son-in law/ nearest relative takes over from the previous Rebbe and becomes a Tzaddik, no matter what his age or level of Torah learning?

    #1408778

    GAON
    Participant

    “Go open a Gemara, and look how a classic stira between the gemaras statement and a possuk is resolved. ”

    You do realize Tanya is NOT exactly a Gemara and, if it doesn’t fit with Pasuk then it’s sort of a problem. It is rather difficult to recreate a Pasuk to fit in a Chidush of an אחרון.

    However, we do have the old klal of the Rambam in sefer haMorah, that logic prevails over simple pshat. E.g. where simple pshat contradicts proven science we say a different pshat. So I guess it does depend how well it stands on it’s own….

    #1408806

    Avi K
    Participant

    if someone chooses to believe that the Rebbe or any Rebbe is Moshiach, that doesn’t make him a Kofer or anything

    Does this mean that Jacob Damkani, who heads a movement that claims that Yushki was the Jewish messiah and never intended to start a new religion, is OK? What about a Jew who joins the Unitarian church? If not, what is the difference?

    #1408805

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    However, we do have the old klal of the Rambam in sefer haMorah, that logic prevails over simple pshat.

    Is there anything logical about saying that in every generation, there is a leader (or leaders) who essentially don’t have bechirah?

    #1408830

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Exciting to see this great feedback! Keep it coming! Looking forward to addressing all questions before moving on.

    #1408831

    Chabadshlucha
    Participant

    Although I see how you can draw that conclusion (because the Rebbe had just said that the Lubavitcher Rebbe of each generation was the Nossi Hador aka Moshe Rabbeinu of the generation, and the Nossi hador is the Moshiach shebador) I don’t think any of the chassidim too it that way. There were me 100 people in the room, people who had escaped the Holocaust and Soviet Russia, and it seemed so unrealistic (from what I’ve heard.) This was in 1950.

    Like right, we’re supposed to bring Moshiach? Us broken survivors? Here in America? Like how exactly…

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