Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha

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  • #1414934

    MoshiachChat
    Participant

    @Seichal HaYashar
    Since I can’t send video here I’ll just quote it:
    “Lo haya histalkus, shtuiot! B’Gimmel Tammuz lo kara shoom dvar. Oso H’Inyan Sh’Haiya kodem. Lo mah Sh’Kasav B’igros hakodesh b’Tanya chof zayin “שיתר מבחיוהי”
    Lo lo lo lo lo. לו יתר לו שמתיר. Oso hadavar כמו sh’haiya kodem. Lo haiya! Oso hadavar!”

    #1414935

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    There’s an important post by CS a bit back that no one commented on, but I think is very important.
    I’ll quote it to remind people:
    “In a famous sicha 5751 the Rebbe got very emotional and poured out his heart, which was highly unusual.

    He said that he had done everything to bring moshiach, and that klal yisroel as a whole, throughout the genesis,had accumulated enough zechusim to me r it moshiach so what more could Hashem be waiting for!?!

    He continued that it must be that Hashem doesn’t want the Nossi hador to bring moshiach because he wants moshiach. Rather, it needs to matter to every man woman and child.

    Ave then shockingly the Rebbe concluded that he’s giving it all over to us regular people-is up to us to bring moshiach.”

    To me, this means that the Rebbe realized that the Massiach campaign went off track, people got carried away and started focusing too much on the Rebbe. So he backed off, had the stroke soon after, and eventually was niftar. It sounds like he abdicated being the “Nasi HaDor”. And he expected his Chassidim to back off too, but their actions indicated that they did not.

    If they had listened to what the Rebbe actually wanted, and not what they wanted to hear, things would be very different today and Chabad would not be so different from everyone else.

    #1414936

    RSo
    Participant

    slominer wrote: “RSo: For what rational reason do you believe that Avraham Avinu existed, if your answer cannot be based on quoting the Torah as your source?”

    Two points, one specific to this thread and one more general.

    1. I don’t know why this thread was started originally but it certainly turned into CS and a few others trying to explain to non-lubavitchers why they should believe or at least accept the possibility that the lubavitcher rebbe is moshiach. Quoting the rebbe himself as proof doesn’t do that.

    2. Our proof of the truth of everything it says in the Torah is based on emunoh. Earlier on CS said that emunoh was emotional and someone (forgive me for not remembering who and for being too lazy to go search) argued that it was much deeper than that i.e. a form of knowledge. I didn’t get involved in that discussion but I agreed with the latter post. Emunoh is something that our neshomos are ingrained with as they are chelkei Eloka mimaal. And you therefore can’t use emunoh for anything else than ikorei ho’emunoh. So I am maamin/believe-know that Avrohom Ovinu existed. I can’t be maamin/believe-know that someone is Moshiach unless he clearly fits in with halochoh.

    I’m not sure I was clear in conveying what I mean but I hope so.

    #1414937

    RSo
    Participant

    Daasyochid asked if we noticed the לשון רבים in the quote from Tanya.

    I noticed it too, but you beat me to it 🙂

    It’s very important because it means that the Baal Hatanya did NOT write that there is a nossi hador and that it seems he believes that there isn’t one!

    #1414946

    BurnTFACE
    Participant

    Being formerly on the inside I can tell you the answer we were given to the plural of “roshei alfei Yisroel” implying that there is more than one top leader in each generation. I would give it to you straight away but I’ll give you a few seconds to see if you can come up with it yourselves first.



    OK. Times up. Here is the official Chabad explanation: The Alter Rebbe [he’s the one who wrote Tanya] was an onov and even though he knew that it was only him [and in future generations only the Chabad rebbe of the that generation] who was the head and mo’ach of all the Yidden, he wrote it in plural to deflect some of the kovod.

    I’m sure you all guessed that was the explanation, right?

    #1414971

    Non Political
    Participant

    @rso

    Are you saying there is no rational basis for our knowing that the Torah is true?? That our Emuna requires a “leap of faith”?

    Do you realize the implications of what you are saying?

    #1414973

    mdd1
    Participant

    Gaon, this is how other Achronim learn it with the Brisker Rov’s girsa.

    #1414975

    Non Political
    Participant

    @rso

    it certainly turned into CS and a few others trying to explain to non-lubavitchers why they should believe or at least accept the possibility that the lubavitcher rebbe is moshiach.

    Where has CS done that? She said it was rational for her and other Lubavichers to accept the teaching of their Rebbe.

    Based on one of her earlier posts I suspect she would agree with your understanding of Emuna though…

    #1414980

    Non Political
    Participant

    @burntface

    It’s clear from SH’s post above that not all Lubavichers learn the Tanya that way. Rabbi David Berger contends that they are unfortunately the minority. I’m not an insider so wouldn’t know.

    Thank you for sharing your personal experiences.

    #1414997

    Kovna
    Participant

    There are seven generations from the gra until moshiach the seventh generation comes out to be Rav shneur kotler even though he was niftar on gimmel tammuz my mashpia told me nothing changed lo haya histaklos.rabosai let us all do teshuva there are no misnagdim there are no chasidim only briskers moshe rabeinu will lead us once again

    #1415000

    CS
    Participant

    I see I have some follow up questions to answer. Excuse my show responses, I have a busy week and will try to get to everything eventually.

    I think the most important question to address is the Rebbe being alive one.

    So that’s a question I was first asked in high school by a wedding, by some very curious girls. And I told them what I knew which was “ma Zaro Vachasima, af hu vachasima.” The era of the Rebbe is not over, because as long as we act by his guidance and horaos, he lives on through us and influences the world even more powerfully, because as the Baal HaTanya writes, that the life of a tzaddik isn’t his physical body accend aspects, it is his spiritual influence, and that lives in even more powerfully after his passing because it isn’t limited to his body anymore. “Tzaddikim Bmisosom kruyim chayim .״

    #1415001

    MoshiachChat
    Participant

    @winnie

    Ch’v Ch’v that the Rebbe ever backed off the moshiach campaign. He dedicated decades to it and it’s the Torah of the Rebbe. He did not “give up”. There are plenty of sources to the idea that “it’s all up to you”. Not trying to offend, but that’s just not how the Rebbes sichos work. They don’t work as “well I’ve done all I can do. Idk what to do next exactly. Might as well give it all up”. He has a whole other year of sichas after that which are even more moshiachdik than before. There is an interview in 1992 where he says “Moshiach is ready to come now and it is only on our part to add in the realm of goodness and kindness”. One person came crying to him after the sicha and he said the avodah depends on you. Him not being able to do more and the jews doing the rest has to do with his being a tzaddik, the spiritual avoda, and HaAlos M’an(isarusa delisata) of the yidden. It’s a lot more complicated and holy than a social psychology approach. Also the Rebbe says to live at every moment with the teachings of the nasi hador. We are if anything, failing to live up to them, not changing them. I found a source outside of chabad literature which says that moshiach will come and say it’s time for geulah but the geulah won’t come because some deeper things need to happen first. Just a thought.

    #1415007

    Phil
    Participant

    “Lo haya histalkus, shtuiot! B’Gimmel Tammuz lo kara shoom dvar”

    Chat,

    Since CS seems to be reluctant to answer these questions, please clarify this matter for us. Why did they bury an empty aron? If he’s alive, where is he? Is he hiding or being hidden against his will? Does he still eat, drink, sleep and have bodily needs? Is he still on this earth but invisible?

    #1415068

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    CS, your last point I think everyone can agree with- and it’s true of all tzaddikim. Which is why when we learn, we say “Rashi says” and not “Rashi said”, not because we think he is still alive and talking, but because his influence and teachings live on beyond him. If this answer truly reflects Chabad Hashkafa today, then we can end the discussion here.
    But even so, we still need live leaders and teachers to guide us, we can’t just live based on what was taught and written before us, trying to interpret these teachings and apply them to our times.

    #1415072

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @NonPolitical,
    “Rabbi David Berger contends that they are unfortunately the minority. I’m not an insider so wouldn’t know.”
    I actually like a lot of your posts, but this one isn’t in line with your “non political” tag. Mr David Berger is a very political partisan hack, who’s unadulterated hatred for Chassidus in general and Chabad in particular is well known. I refer you to R Dovid Lichtensteins interview with him on “Headlines”. You will also observe there that Berger is not a very big Talmid chochom to say the least.

    #1415091

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @burntface,
    “Being formerly on the inside”
    You sound like you’re reading one of those scripted “documentaries” of people who left Yiddishkait (lehavdil, I’m not comparing) with an axe to grind.
    I’m actually quite curious to know who you are, because you seem to have a vile agenda to bashmutz Lubavitch here.
    And also, because there are only a very small handful of Lubavitchers who left to other Chassidusen after the Rebbes histalkus. (The Liozna Rebbe, a certain Belzer Dayan, and that’s all I’ve heard of)
    And I highly doubt that your are the Liozna Rebbe.

    #1415121

    slominer
    Participant

    Sechel, Burnt, –

    How many Lubavitchers left Lubavitch after (because of) the Rebbe’s petira?

    Why did they leave? And where’d they leave to? You both say few of them left to other Chasiduses; so where did they go?

    And how did the Liozna Rebbe and that Belzer Dayan explain their leaving?

    #1415126

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “You sound like you’re reading one of those scripted “documentaries” of people who left Yiddishkait (lehavdil, I’m not comparing) with an axe to grind”

    just curious, was that an expression of support to an obviously pained, suffering soul who had a very traumatic experience, or somewhat an expression of frustration at the negativity he is expressing toward Chabad?
    I think most readers are able to see the difference between posts that come from scholarship and those that come from pain and the main focus towards pained and suffering individuals should be mercy and tefillos only and always, regardless of how their words reflect personally.

    #1415127

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @NonPolitical,
    In response to your questions:
    (Sorry for the lengthy wait)
    “The inference from the Bati L’Ganni speech was sufficient for the Brisker Rov to declare that the Lubavitcher Rebbe thought he was Moshiach. Such an inference is clearly not unreasonable.”

    I don’t know the source of this story with the Brisker Rov, but have you actually learned the maamar inside?
    If you do, like I’ve done countless times, I think you will fail to come across such an inference. I have never seen it. It’s not worth arguing about this point until you have actually studied the maamar inside, in its entirety.

    “take personal offense at the statement made by CS that the Vilna Gaon saw the Alter Rebbe of Lubavich through a key hole, realized that if he would meet him he would have become a chossid and ran away. But this is just a symptom of the above stated problem.”

    This story is not the mesora we have in Lubavitch of the meeting between the Gra and Baal HaTanya, (as I discussed earlier in this thread) but rather the version that Rav YB Soleveitchik had received in his family, being a descendant of the Gra. Please refer to my previous comments about this.

    “The premise that it is legitimate to hold such a belief undermines the very fabric of the Halachic process itself”
    We’ve been through this so many times here…
    As I asked earlier, which Halacha does this contradict?
    Such a belief has basis in the Gemara,
    “ורבי יוחנן אמר למשיח מה שמו דבי רבי שילא אמרי שילה שמו שנאמר (בראשית מט, י) עד כי יבא שילה דבי רבי ינאי אמרי ינון שמו שנאמר (תהלים עב, יז) יהי שמו לעולם לפני שמש ינון שמו דבי רבי חנינה אמר חנינה שמו שנאמר (ירמיהו טז, יג) אשר לא אתן לכם חנינה”
    (Basis for believing ones Rebbe is Moshiach)

    “אמר רב נחמן אי מן חייא הוא כגון אנא שנאמר (ירמיהו ל, כא) והיה אדירו ממנו ומושלו מקרבו יצא אמר רב אי מן חייא הוא כגון רבינו הקדוש אי מן מתיא הוא כגון דניאל איש חמודות”
    (Basis for the possibility of Moshiach min Hameisim)
    Also, note what Rav Nachman says…
    – Sanhedrin 98b.

    #1415134

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @slominer,
    “How many Lubavitchers left Lubavitch after (because of) the Rebbe’s petira?”
    I don’t know of exact numbers, but it was a handful, individuals. There was no mass exodus.

    “Why did they leave? And where’d they leave to? You both say few of them left to other Chasiduses; so where did they go?”

    Most of them left Yiddishkait entirely, perhaps because they never really believed too much to begin with, but the Rebbes presence and the environment that created left them within Lubavitch for the time being.

    “And how did the Liozna Rebbe and that Belzer Dayan explain their leaving?”
    I don’t know their explanations, you’d have to ask them. I can tell you that as early as 1987 this Liozna Rebbe was expressing his doubts in Lubavitch and the Rebbe. He only got up and left after the Rebbes histalkus.

    #1415140

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    MC, I didn’t mean that he backed off the campaign, but that he backed off of his role as the center of it, and instead, as you say, put in on the shoulders of the chasidim. That is how I understood the sicha that CS quoted, but, of course, not being a Chabadnik, I am sure that my interpretation of it is not how Chabad chassidim understand it.

    #1415141

    feivel
    Participant

    of course he left. his perception is that he was being force-fed a whole dangerous system of lies, absurdities and foolishness. if he was, then he was honest and courageous to leave, and of course he has an axe to grind.

    #1415164

    MoshiachChat
    Participant

    @winnie

    People came up to the Rebbe with a psak that he was chezkas moshiach after this sicha and he responded “Tasha’s koyach! Yoshar Koyach” and placed the psak into his breast pocket. Also feel free to read the sichas which came after. It only got more intense. U can find them on hebrewbooks online for free

    #1415172

    Non Political
    Participant

    I cannot comment on whether Rabbi Berger is a Talmud Chocham or not. Never spoke to him, read his articles, or heard his lectures. I did read his book. In it he expressed:
    1) His great admiration for the Lubavicher Rebbe
    2) His concern for the direction certain elements within Chabbad where headed which he saw as deviations of the Lubavicher Rebbes teachings
    4) His conviction that more needs to be done by the Agudah and RCA Rabbionim to
    A. Publicly come out against those deviant elements
    B. Strengthen the Rabbonim in Chabbad who where fighting these deviations.

    #1415181

    Lubavitcher
    Participant

    watch the video from Koiach Nissan.(chuf ches nissan.) when the rebbe says the famous sicha that CS and a few other were talking about. i personally was born only after gimmel tammuz so i never had the zchus to see the rebbe with my own eyes. but watch the video. Chuf Ches NIssan> “KER A VELT HEINT”. which means turn over the world today. its very chilling the video….

    #1415189

    Non Political
    Participant

    @sh
    “The premise that it is legitimate to hold such a belief undermines the very fabric of the Halachic process itself”
    We’ve been through this so many times here…
    As I asked earlier, which Halacha does this contradict?

    You missed my point. Before discussing whether a specific practice or belief is or is not against Halacha there has to be a comittment to the Halachic process itself. Siting an Agadah to sanction an unprecedented theological shift among Klal Yisroel is unacceptable. It would be problematic even if it was done by a Gadol. As you yourself have pointed out repeatedly there has been no Gadol who took this position. I would be able to use such a meathod to uproot many established practices and beliefs (among other them Ikrai HaDaat.

    #1415190

    5ish
    Participant

    “No, that’s not possible. The Rambam clearly says if he failed, it’s known that he’s not moshiach.

    He failed. He’s not moshiach.”

    DY

    The Rambam is speaking abut the status of chezkas Moshiach. Without debating the diyukim that can be made about neherag, it is clear that contextually the Rambam is explaining that the status of chezkas moshiach ends when the melech is neherag.

    But this certainly does not preclude the possibility of anyone anyways being Moshiach. In fact, the status of chezkas moshiach not even need occur. Perhaps all of the conduct of Moshiach will happen miraculously at once and there will only be Moshiach vadai.

    There does not seem to be any halachic source which procludes Moshiach being a resurrected person and the Rambam in hilchos melachim does not prove such.

    #1415205

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Congratulations, ChabadShlucha, I believe this is officially the longest thread bearing a poster’s username in the title in the history of the CR. If this lasts a few more days, it could even become the longest thread in general.

    #1415206

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @mc,
    “Tasha’s koyach! Yoshar Koyach”
    I don’t know if this is a typo or what, or you don’t know what Ta”ch stands for (tshuas chen) but Tashas Koach means “a weakening of Koach”. Probably a typo.

    #1415214

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @NonPolitical,
    “Siting an Agadah to sanction an unprecedented theological shift among Klal Yisroel is unacceptable. ”
    This Gemara is a very strong precedent. Agada only isn’t a proof if it contradicts Halacha, which as explained, it doesn’t. The Rambam does not say that Moshiach isn’t min hameisim, or from one who was zoche to Techiya before the process of Geula began, (and that is a legitimate possibility, צדיקים קמים מיד, and other sources,) and there was such a possibility accepted by no less than Amoraim. Was the Gemara not accepting your definition of “Halachic process”?

    #1415245

    Non Political
    Participant

    @sh

    This story is not the mesora we have in Lubavitch of the meeting between the Gra and Baal HaTanya, (as I discussed earlier in this thread) but rather the version that Rav YB Soleveitchik had received in his family, being a descendant of the Gra.

    Considering that this is a “family mesorah” one would expect it to be well know among the Brisk Rabbonim, Roshai Yeshiva, and their Talmidim.

    Also, why are you making a personal attack against Rabbi Berger? Is it because he came out against certain elements in Lubavich? As you are well aware there are many Rabbonim who did (do) the same. Among them Gedolim whose reputation and scholarship is beyond reproach.

    #1415249

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @NonPolitical,
    “Siting an Agadah to sanction an unprecedented theological shift among Klal Yisroel is unacceptable. ”
    You probably mean “Citing.”

    #1415315

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @np,
    “Considering that this is a “family mesorah” one would expect it to be well know among the Brisk Rabbonim, Roshai Yeshiva, and their Talmidim.”
    Who said it’s not? Secondly a family mesora is just that, a family mesora. Not something that Roshei Yeshiva would be likely to speak about in Shiur. Do you really think that Rav YB Soleveitchik made it up? Or because he wasn’t Yeshivish maybe you don’t accept his word? (I’m asking, not stating.)

    “Also, why are you making a personal attack against Rabbi Berger? Is it because he came out against certain elements in Lubavich? As you are well aware there are many Rabbonim who did (do) the same. Among them Gedolim whose reputation and scholarship is beyond reproach.”

    Professor Berger (correct me if I’m wrong,but he’s a Proof. in YU, not a Rabbi there) has a strange agenda of asking the RCA to state that Shechita of one who believes that the Rebbe is Moshiach is forbidden. Which the RCA obviously didn’t agree with, and I don’t know which “Gedolim whose reputation and scholarship is beyond reproach” agreed with him. If you want to know on what I base my views on him, for the third time, listen to the interview with R Dovid Lichtenstein (someone who I wish everyone here would emulate in their respect for other Yidden) about Meshichistim with Professor Berger.

    #1415144

    MoshiachChat
    Participant

    Hey @phil

    I made some replies, but it seems they weren’t put up, so I’ll say them again here.

    The believe isn’t that the Rebbe wasn’t buried. He was. I believe nearly all of us, except for some very confused individuals, can agree to that. The Shtefaneshter Rebbe said about Yaakov Avinu, that since “Yaakov Avinu lo Mes” he is obligated in mitzvahs. The specific mitzvah pointed out was eating matzah on pesach. So he asks how Yaakov avinu can fulfill this mitzvah. He says there that since Hashem is כל יוכל so hashem is able to give him matzah to eat in pesach in the grave. Now, this isn’t what I think to be the case, but it’s still Torah and I respect the opinion. Rashi says it appeared that Yaakov had died in his commentary on Chumash, and tosefos quotes Gemara in Taanas when commenting on the “Yaakov avinu lo mes” Gemara which says Yaakov avinu laughed after he passed away. The Rebbe says these two take it literally. He also asks some questions which make it difficult to say otherwise. So the Rebbe says Yaakov is alive b’guf. He also says in another sicha that there are others who say Lo Mes Moshe means also bguf, but the Rebbe doesn’t hold by that vort. Nevertheless it is an opinion. The Rif on Ein Yaakov says that Yaakovs כח to move was nullified and they mistakenly buried him. The Rebbe has a letter going through different tzaddikim and sources which say they didn’t die and how there are different levels and opinions. If ur interested in that letter I’ll send the source. The bnei yissachar has an opinion that tzaddikim who never had nanah from this world, on the day of their passing, look like they died but live neshamah bguf. There are also many sources for a guf dak(ethereal second body) which is discussed about many different tzaddikim. Another thing, the Rebbe says the Baal Shem Tov could have lived forever but he chose to die and fulfill the Loshon of the phrase “from dust u shall return”. There is also a famous vort about how the Baal Shem tov and the Maggid of Mezrich visited the alter Rebbe in prison after their passing. One of the chabad rabbanim asked someone who visited the alter Rebbes cell if there was enough room for 3 people, clearly showing he though they appeared in some kind of actual body. When it comes to applying this to the Rebbe it comes from chassidic explanations that moshiach will live forever. These explanations were applied to the Rebbe in 1992 with the chezkas moshiach psak din and that the time for geulah had arrived based on the Rebbes nevuah. They therefore said the oath of hashem that moshiach will live forever applies to the Rebbe. So coming from that direction, we see how it would work. Personally, I went to the Rebbes kever, and put my hand on his gravesite. As soon as I did I felt some type of shock, l’maalah min hateva. My heart felt like it was bubbling and my head was buzzing and there was kinda like a current going through my arm. It was unlike anything I can put into words and lasted until I took my hand off the stone many seconds later. I’m personally telling u this to help bring out that tzaddikim are beyond us and that something is going on down in that kever. u don’t realize the depth of it until u experience the Rebbe, I guess. And no, aside from being sassy my mental health is normal. Altho I can understand wanting to paint me as a crazy anon so as not to have to believe this story. But I experienced it for myself, and I generally tend to keep it to myself but I felt it necessary to say this in context of this conversation.

    #1415369

    Phil
    Participant

    “They therefore said the oath of hashem that moshiach will live forever applies to the Rebbe”

    What is the exact source of Hashem taking an oath that Moshiach would live forever? Also, if that’s the case, where are all the Moshiach’s from the past three-thousand years, who should also be living forever?

    #1415371

    Non Political
    Participant

    @sh

    Please see the Ramchal regarding interpetIons of Agadah. There are Agados that are not to be taken literally for example. It is not a free for all when anyone can interpret as they see fit as long as it doesn’t contradict a Halacha. And even if we somehow know to take it literally we still have various ways of interpreting it as you saw In the beginning of the thread. Would you accept an argument based on a different Chazal that would deny that Moshiach is coming altogether? What about proofs from Chazal that there is no problem playing an organ in Shul on Shabbos? What about women getting called up to the Toarah? All of these are deviations from normative Jewish beliefs and practice. Halachic process dictates that innovations to Jewish beliefs and practice are to be initiated or, in the event that they arise spontaneously, be sanctioned after the fact by the Gedolim of the generation. That has not happened in this case and therefore contradicts normative Halachic process. Whether a Tanna or Ammorah did or did not historically hold this position is not relevant.

    #1415383

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “with the chezkas moshiach psak din ”

    Perhaps this has been explained in this thread….I dont have the patience to read through most of this. Whichh beis din issued this psak?

    #1415395

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    In relation to my remarks about Professor Berger:
    “In my mid-teens, I experienced periods of perplexity and inner struggle while reading works of biblical criticism. While I generally resisted arguments for the documentary hypothesis with a comfortable margin of safety, there were moments of deep turmoil. I have a vivid recollection of standing at an outdoor [sabbath service] in camp overwhelmed with doubts and hoping that God would give me the strength to remain an Orthodox Jew. What saved me was a combination of two factors: works that provided reasoned arguments in favor of traditional belief and the knowledge that to embrace the position that the Torah consists of discrete, often contradictory documents was to embrace not merely error but [heresy].”
    -From his autobiography published in 1993.
    I’ll let all of you decide for yourself if these comments disqualify him from opining on whether or not these beliefs are kfira, and “beyond the pale of orthodoxy”.
    (As an aside, when a 50 year old writes an autobiography, it speaks volumes about his character, and specifically his ego.)

    #1415399

    Non Political
    Participant

    @sh

    Who said it’s not? Secondly a family mesora is just that, a family mesora.
    It is reasonable to expect that such a mesorah would make a roshim in Bais Brisk in there yechs to chassidus in general and to Chabbad in particular. That would constitute collaborative evidence that it is true. Now if we had direct or public testimony from The RAV that would be something. Do we have that??

    Or because he wasn’t Yeshivish maybe you don’t accept his word?
    C’mon now. Do you speculate that I am MO because I CITED Rabbi Berger or Yeshivish because I questioned the Ravs alleged testimony?

    Rabbi Berger is a Rabbi and a Professor. Hence his titles Rabbi Doctor

    I didn’t make any claims about whether or not many Gedolim and Rabbonim agree with Rabbi Berger. I said many Gedolim and Rabbonim came out against the Lubavicher Rebbe. Surely you aware of this.

    #1415414

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @np,
    “That has not happened in this case and therefore contradicts normative Halachic process. ”
    I fail to see the logic in that.

    “Would you accept an argument based on a different Chazal that would deny that Moshiach is coming altogether? ”
    I wouldn’t, because Halacha as brought in Rambam clearly doesn’t hold like that Deah.

    As for the organ playing in Shul etc, I think you should come up with more rational arguments.

    All of your arguments are based on the myth that somewhere in Halacha it says that Moshiach cannot be min hameisim, or have an early Techiya. To answer that with “well the Gedolim didn’t say he could be” I’m not aware of which Godol spoke or wrote about these inyanim “Lepilpula b’alma” not in connection to Lubavitch or the Rebbe.

    #1415420

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @np,
    ” I said many Gedolim and Rabbonim came out against the Lubavicher Rebbe.”
    I want three names of such Gedolim.
    1. Rosh Yeshiva
    2. A Posek
    3. One who stood out as a Tzadik, besides for being a Talmid chochom.

    #1415424

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    @np,
    “Now if we had direct or public testimony from The RAV that would be something. Do we have that??”
    I believe he said this at a Yud Test Kislev gathering in Boston in the late 60’s. I gave the source for this earlier (before you joined the conversation).

    #1415448

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @sechelhayashar

    1. Rav Aharon Feldman SHLITA
    2. Rav Yisroel Belsky ZT”L
    3. Rav Elazar Menachem Man Shach ZT”L
    #1415452

    CS
    Participant

    Cont

    So that sicha made it obvious to the chassidim that the Rebbe can’t be nistalek, as understood from the previous information mentioned in this thread.

    Id really love to know if SH was taught this sicha,and if yes, how he reconciles it with having no problem saying ztzal etc

    #1415451

    CS
    Participant

    Basically there is a sicha, shmos likutei sichos chelek vov.

    The Rebbe asks how is Moshe rabbeinu alive? After all, every tzadik is Af bimisosom kruyim chayim, so whats the addition of Moshe Lo mes?

    The Rebbe answers that there is a medrash about Moshe, “Hu goel rishon, hu goel acharon.” Even though the Yiddin of the time didn’t merit moshiach, so Moshe wasnt moshiach, but the words of Hahem still were fulfilled.

    How?

    Moshes neshama is always present on earth in the body of the ispashtusa dMoshe bechol Dara. And since the main life of a tzadik is his Ruchnius accomplishments, Moshe Lo mes, because his neshama is always alive in the body of the Nossi hador,and that’s how hu goel rishon hu goel acharon because his neshama will end up with the Nossi hador who will be moshiach

    #1415446

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant
    #1415447

    CS
    Participant

    Cont

    So what I said before about the Rebbe being alive as in guiding us is mainstream. I can share a story to illustrate that point if wanted,please ask 🙂

    Btw I take offence at the Rebbe’s Torah bring referred to as just good enough for non frum…that’s a ridiculous thing to say. Whoever said it obviously has never learnt a sicha or maamar, and should seriously do some teshuva and ask the Rebbe for Mechila for their own good.

    Anyhow I was going to share something interesting.

    In 12th grade I picked up there was more to this Rebbe being alive thing than ma Zaro bachayim. So I asked my teacher to address this and he prepared a fascinating few lessons on it

    #1415474

    CS
    Participant

    Cont’

    But as you all know, gimmel tammuz came along. So according to what I learned in this class, I had no clue of any is this before, the chassidim were split in 3 camps.

    1) we don’t know what happened here, but it’s apparent that the Rebbe was nistalek, so we’ll go with that reality, and admit we don’t understand the sicha

    2) exactly the opposite. Moshe emess vsoraso emess, the world is Olam hasheker, so the Rebbe is still alive.

    How exactly?

    There are different ways that it can be, all based on torah of course. I’ll mention a few pointers and if you’re not familiar, or anther person can explain :

    1. Like Rabbeinu Hakadosh who came after his padding, to his family, in his body, and made kiddush for them (they could not have been yotze if he didn’t come in his body)

    2. Rabbeinu Bachya s concept of tzaddikim possessing a guf gas and guf dak. So the guf gas can be buried while the guf dak is active.

    3. A sicha of the Rebbe, I think MC referred to it before, on Yaakov Lo mes. The tosfos says that Yakov was buried, but at the funeral he opened his eyes.

    Ie for a tzadik there could be such a thing as the body being alive although there is no pulse, no eating etc to answer Phil

    3. Mainstream position that the Rebbe’s body is alive as per the last point of 2, in the ohel. This makes it that he doesn’t disconnect from us and continues to guide us, unlike tzaddikim when they pass away they undergo nhar dinur I think it is, and forget all associations with this world.so we visit the ohel, acknowledge gimmel tammuz and continue being guide by the Rebbe,the Nossi hador, whose influence has only grown worldwide since gimmel tammuz

    #1415478

    CS
    Participant

    Cont’
    So at the end of the day it is a matter of emuna, but I didn’t think it would be so hard to explain where we’re coming from because we’re all frum Yiddin who understand that the word of a tzadik should be taken really seriously,raising by his own chassidim.

    @dovidbt
    We go by the Rebbe’s guidelines. If there is a difference in understanding, then both positions are acceptable as you can see in this thread – mc and sh vehemently disagree, abs try to convince each other, but no one will day that either isn’t a chossid

    #1415472

    Non Political
    Participant

    @sh
    All of your arguments are based on the myth that somewhere in Halacha it says that Moshiach cannot be min hameisim, or have an early Techiya.

    Nowhere in any of my posts have I stated that the Halacha says this. Nowhere in any of my posts have I used it as a premise for anything I did say. You are either misunderstanding or misconstruing what I did write.

    Re: Rabbi Berger. Not sure why his openly discussing a struggle he had in his youth is relevant.

    Rabbi Yaacov Emden wrote an autobiography. I don’t think it says anything negative about him. Do you?

    Re: Poskim, Talmidai Chochamin and Tzadikim.
    What criteria would you propose we use for

    Re: Brisk Meaorah
    You did not witness this personally. Did you see / hear a recording of this yourself? Did you at least hear first hand testimony from someone who did?

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