Mesichists Explained by ChabadShlucha
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- This topic has 933 replies, 56 voices, and was last updated 5 years, 3 months ago by apushatayid.
November 27, 2017 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #1413032
I have been tough with some IN RESPONSE. This is after people have already delegitimized lubavitch or me and many time I apologize as in doing it. Again, I am sorry but some of these comments are v upsetting. I suggest u look again because most of the messages to me have not been respectful.November 27, 2017 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #1413033The little I knowParticipant
The issue here is that we are not dealing with Yaakov Avinu. The idea of “Lo Mes” is something unique to Yaakov, and was never hinted to for anyone else since creation of the world (with the exception of those that the gemora says never experienced misa). So the “alive” myth is completely unacceptable, as per Torah and as per logic. To believe that is complete hergesh. I am uninterested in the efforts to provide afterthought logic to rationalize this.
As for the being oveir an issur, this is the expression used by several of the poskim who dealt with the Kever Rochel shailoh. They did not conclude that it is better not to, but that the issur is clear and cannot be subjected to compromise.
I cannot speak for the Chid”a or other poskim from the Sephardic world. It is known that many of their piskei halacha differ from the Ashkenazic prevailing halacha. I have an issue with someone who concocts his own heter for something, and then tries to justify it with a basis from poskim who paskened their halachos for their own communities. These same Sephardic communities were not under the jurisdiction of Rabbenu Gershom, and technically did not accept the takana against marrying more than one wife. With the greatest of regard for the Chid”a, this is a case of apples and oranges.November 27, 2017 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #1413038
What are u going on about @Sechel HaYashar? U still hate me? I thought we had a moment with that whole tzaddikim tumah business. Guess not :/.
Stop saying opinions u disagree with? No I won’t. And stop throwing a tantrum—it’s unbecomingNovember 27, 2017 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1413041
the Lubavitcher rebbe isn’t moshiach ,he hinted ,he said clearly makes no difference Klal yisroel is run by live physical people, there is no concept of seven generations it’s wrong Sheker the gedolim of last generation were against the Lubavitcher rebbe on many topics he wasn’t accepted,just like you have a nasi ,melech,moshiach, the Torah gave us the 70 elders,the Sanhedrin not Lubavitcher chasidim not Elter Lubavitcher chasidim real gedolim people who were actually bigger than the rebbe in learning yiras shamayim who worried more for klal yisroel than he did he wasn’t the Neshama klaliyus he wasn’t accepted melech by sefardim or other chasidim or misnagdim only by his chasidim,Ain melech blo am.November 27, 2017 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1413048
Your tongue is wagging a thousand miles an hour. Slow down and try make an intelligent argument.November 27, 2017 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #1413047
After the Rebbe was niftar, I expected to see mass depression or going off the derech – after all, how does one continue after everything that was predicted proved wrong? It had the potential to be another shabtai tzvi disaster. Yet, that didn’t happen (BurnTFACE seems to be in the minority of those who were disillusioned and left Chabad) -and now after reading this thread, I understand why. The “abandoned” flock never perceived themselves as abandoned! Because to Chabad, the Rebbe’s shita wasn’t proven wrong. The Rebbe is still the Rebbe, still Mashiach, the 7th Dor continues as long as there is no new Rebbe. A whole generation has come of age since the Rebbe was niftar, and still nothing really changed!
Meanwhile, the rest of us wait for Mashiach without cheshbonos of who he might be – that part we leave up to Hashem.November 27, 2017 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #1413055
@the little I know
Well, the issue was is Yaakov avinu lo mes literal, and u then switched it to whether it applies to others and I would like to note that. The idea of Yaakov avinu lo mes was said about the previous rebbe. The Rebbe said “And the Previous Rebbe, who did not die, like Yaakov Avinu”. There is also a source from The bnei Yissachar which says “a tzaddik that didn’t have hanauh from this world, on the day of his death, only appears as if he dies but really lives bguf. The Rebbe Rashab says people who merit there “deaths” are interpreted loosely by hashem and they are concealed in some way. And in chabad teachings it explains that moshiach will have eternal life. There was a psak din which said that eternal life applies to the Rebbe BEFORE gimmel tammuz. The Rebbe himself said that moshiach hador has to be in a body, so if any antis believe he is nasi they have to believe his is alive. Reb Yoel Kahn, much to Seichal Yashars dismay, is on video saying nothing happened gimmel tammuz. He is here just as before.November 27, 2017 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #1413064
Thanks. Finally some rational thinking.November 27, 2017 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #1413062
I appreciate ur comment, but I’m confused about ur not looking for who is moshiach. The Sdei Chemed says people in EVERY generation are accustomed to look for who moshiach is. “All this is obvious” he says. Why not do the custom of every generation?November 27, 2017 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #1413074
The rebbe is not moshiach the Lubavitcher chasidim made a mistake they should all come back this is called seichel hayasharNovember 27, 2017 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #1413072
MoshiacChat- at the risk of being a target of your sassiness again, when no insult is intended…
You mentioned a couple of times that the Rebbe brought down medrashim, or a Rashi and Tosfos to explain his views, and urged people to check out the sichos and see for themselves. You must realize by now, that posters here will not be looking this up in the Sicha, practically, because they don’t have the Rebbe’s sichos on their bookshelves (gasp!) and also because they want to see the sources in their context in an unbiased way. Can you please provide us with the actual primary sources -the medrashim and Rashi/Tosfos that you are referring to?November 27, 2017 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #1413070MenoParticipant
This thread has become one big circus.November 27, 2017 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #1413069
I should be more precise. He says people would not only search but say who it is in every generation!November 27, 2017 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #1413081
“I appreciate ur comment, but I’m confused about ur not looking for who is moshiach. The Sdei Chemed says people in EVERY generation are accustomed to look for who moshiach is. “All this is obvious” he says. Why not do the custom of every generation?”
And to that I present you will a Ksav Yad from the Rebbe that you would prefer to ignore:
*אין כל* חיוב *כלל* לחפש מיהו משיח וכו’ אבל *מ”ע מה”ת:* [מצות עשה מן התורה] אהבת *כאו”א* [כל אחד ואחד] מישראל ושלילת המחלוקת וכו’ *בתכלית* – ופשיטא שלא לעשות במזיד הפכו *וד”ל* [ודי למבין].November 27, 2017 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #1413080Avram in MDParticipant
I appreciate ur comment, but I’m confused about ur not looking for who is moshiach. The Sdei Chemed says people in EVERY generation are accustomed to look for who moshiach is. “All this is obvious” he says. Why not do the custom of every generation?
I am not familiar with that Sdei Chemed, but what you are depicting as obvious I see as dangerous. We are supposed to yearn for Moshiach, because upon his coming our relationship with Hashem will be restored to the way it’s supposed to be. But even Moshe Rabbeinu had to hide in the cleft of the rock and wait until Hashem’s glory had passed before he could see. Trying to predict when, or guess who, is far more likely to lead to heartbreak and disaster than an answer. Indeed many people have been “accustomed” to look for Moshiach, and our history bears this out with story after story of false messiahs and pain. Hashem controls the entire universe. When He wants us to know, we’ll know. No need for gymnastics.November 27, 2017 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #1413082ubiquitinParticipant
“The Rebbe has a whole sicha about how it is literal and that Rashi and Tosofos agree that it’s literal. Maybe read the sicha before u categorically deny such a thing.”
Just so I understand you beleive Yaakov Avinu is 3571 years old breathing, eating drinking, using the facilities etc etc. All while buried in maaros hamachpela?
Or is the passuk “וַיִּקְבְּר֣וּ אֹת֔וֹ בִּמְעָרַ֖ת שְׂדֵ֣ה הַמַּכְפֵּלָ֑ה” not literal?November 27, 2017 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #1413100
Quoting a sdei chemed is not gymnasticsNovember 27, 2017 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1413098
Why would u assume id ignore it??? That’s a rude thing to assume. So u think meshichistim are heartless or something?
My answer would be that considering the Rebbe brought the sdei chemed I mentioned in a footnote, he obviously would not contradict himself. So one has to give. I would say the ksav yad u mentioned is the one which isn’t what it appears to be. Notice that the Rebbe says “chiuv” the sdei chemed never said it was a chiuv. He said its costumary. The Rebbes point, it seems, is that knowing who moshiach is is an Inyan, but ahavas yisrael is a chiuv. If there is ever a stira between the two then u should obviously choose ahavas yisrael. Don’t make machlokes. This wouldn’t seemingly apply here because we are trying to explain beliefs to those who have questions. We aren’t forcing on anyone. This ksav was written obviously to a particular person in a particular circumstance and we should be careful about drawing klals from personal stories.November 27, 2017 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #1413107
We all are waiting for moshiach to come ,he isn’t the Lubavitcher rebbe , rebbi akiva chacham gadol mchachmei Mishna thought someone was moshiach and he wasn’t,we only seek counsel on who is moshiach from gedolim not chasidim of the lubavitcher rebbe , gedolim like the rebbi Akivas of our time.Wether he hinted or he told clearly the gedolim didn’t and wouldnt accept him he wasn’t qualified to be in the runningNovember 27, 2017 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #1413091
I’m just a sassy person :/(I get over it in 5 as long as ur nice which u seem to be). I didn’t want to link them as I mentioned them because that would take longer and perhaps the person I’ve responded to is uninterested or isn’t interested in having a discussion. So instead I was waiting for an interested party to see that I raised a source and then ask me about it. I’m happy to link some for u sometime tonight, but I’d prefer to send photos and not type everything up. This would involve a different platform or perhaps an explanation for how I could do it here?November 27, 2017 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #1413117
Additionally the Rebbe says it’s a minhag of chassidim to believe their Rebbe is moshiach and that we follow this custom. Also the Rebbe brings a story about someone who said the Previous Rebbe was moshiach and someone getting upset and the Rebbe defended that Chosid. Additionally rabbi Groner was told over and over again by misnagdim that the Rebbe isn’t moshiach and rabbi Groner said it’s normal to believe it and quoted a Gemara Sanhedrin. These rabbanim said “there is no such Gemara” and when he showed them they shut their mouths. Rabbi Groner reported back to the Rebbe and the Rebbe mentioned at the fabrengen that there are people who haven’t thought about moshiach in so long that they didn’t know a simple point about moshiach mentioned in the Gemara. All that said, I tend to think I interpreted that letter correctly.November 27, 2017 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #1413134Put down the gunParticipant
I ate seven donut 🍩 holes for lunch.November 27, 2017 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1413161
MoshiachChat- while it would be nice if you can quote the texts, if that is too hard, then you can start by giving the source- which medrash, which gemara, etc. so others can look it up for themselves. Not good at this issue myself, but I know others have managed to include texts or links to sources.
I must admit though that I personally will not be able to follow the Rashi/Tosfos, having never learned Gemara. I may be nice, but I am not Harav Pooh 🙂 Perhaps others here will do the honor, or if I can get my husband interested, he’ll look at it for me.
Oh, to answer another point- I don’t look to see who is Moshiach because that was not what I learned to be part of the 13 Ikrim of emuna.November 27, 2017 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #1413164benignumanParticipant
On the issue of whether “יעקב אבינו לא מת” is literal or not. I think it pays to clarify what Rav Yochanan was referring to when he said יעקב אבינו לא מת. The posuk, in describing Yakov Avinu’s death writes: “וַיִּגְוַ֖ע וַיֵּאָ֥סֶף אֶל־עַמָּֽיו” This means his soul left his body and was gathered onto his nation (i.e. went to Gan Eden). But when describing the deaths of Avraham and Yitzchak the posuk adds in the term “וַיָּ֧מָת.” For example by Avraham the Torah says: וַיִּגְוַ֨ע וַיָּ֧מָת אַבְרָהָ֛ם בְּשֵׂיבָ֥ה טוֹבָ֖ה זָקֵ֣ן וְשָׂבֵ֑עַ וַיֵּאָ֖סֶף אֶל־עַמָּֽיו׃.
The addition of the word וַיָּ֧מָת implies that it has a particular meaning, an aspect of death that is not captured in וַיִּגְוַ֖ע וַיֵּאָ֥סֶף אֶל־עַמָּֽיו. Because this word is not present by the death of Yakov Avinu, R’Yochanan says יעקב אבינו לא מת. Rav Nachman is confused and asks that Yakov was embalmed, buried and eulogized, how can R’Yochanan say he wasn’t dead. To which the Gemara answers that R’Yochanan is making a drasha, Yakov Avinu is compared to the Jewish people and just like the Jewish people are still alive, Yakov Avinu is still alive. (מה זרעו בחיים אף הוא בחיים).
You can understand this simply to mean that Yakov Avinu lives on in name so long that his children live on and therefore he cannot truly die because the bnei Yakov (referred to as bnei Yakov or bnei Yisroel) are still alive and will remain alive. Rashi, however, takes a more literal approach and understands Yakov Avinu to be in a quasi-death state (suspended animation) and he will be revived for the final geulah to see his children redeemed.
But under both understandings, Yakov Avinu appeared dead to everyone around him. His body was indistinguishable from a dead body to the embalmers and the eulogizers. But there was one aspect of death that he never suffered.November 27, 2017 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #1413173Put down the gunParticipant
Did he quote the gemara Sanhedrin after gimmel tammuz to prove that the rebbe could still be moshiach, and then you heard the rebbe speak about it the next shabbos?November 27, 2017 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #1413175CSParticipant
@syag I mean no disrespect. I think this has been for the most part a very respectful discussion, I just don’t think I’m being taken seriously because if I was, the sources would have been addressed, or holes in the logic pointed out, or start I existed which was, “For me this wouldnt work, but I see why it could for you.”Which is actually what I and secure have done many times.
I guess i see that even though the sources haven’t been addressed and the logic had not been accepted, it is too much for the litvishe world as a whole to take in one foot, which is why I decline to further discuss perhaps even more sensitive subjects.
Don’t get me wrong. I have learned much from this discussion and am happy to revisit at any time.
@sechel I have great respect for you, and just because you’re younger than me, you have a sound mind, so it doesn’t matter at all. I didn’t want to write where the bochurim shluchim are located, as my husband would prefer the whole Yeshiva not gossip about his wife’s posts if I give away my location 😉
As for my personal position, that’s the house I grew up in and my private personal opinion also based on several igros I have seen. My husband leans more to the meshichist side, and I admire his soldier type personality and kabbolas old, no matter what the subject matter may be within Yiddishkeit. Sometimes, taking your own intellect to seriously can get in the way of Avodas Hashem. Since this is my husband, that’s the way we run our home, and I don’t see any issue with that as like I said, he definitely has what to rely on.
@everyone stop being so harsh on moshiach chat and chacham. Choc go can’t be older than 16-17, and moshiach chat 17-18, so stop getting insulted by his style – he’s not a full mature adult though. If you disagree with what he says, address his points and sources.November 27, 2017 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #1413184
Well now I’m embarrassed to say my real ageNovember 27, 2017 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1413188🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
I also mean no disrespect but if you will compare your words to 5ish, or even SH in some places you will see a distinct difference between “I would rather not discuss it” and denial. Your words for leaving sound somewhat empty. even tho I agree that it may not be what you hoped for, to ask people to say it is logical but just not for them would require a presentation of logic. Unfortunately, presenting a religious doctrine whos only base is that the leader himself told you to believe it defies logic, and arguably is halachically problematic. Maybe not lubavitch, perse, but certainly that which you have presented.
Comments like this – “it is too much for the litvishe world as a whole to take in one foot, ” – are inappropriate, condescending, and sound more like someone who would rather not find out they are standing on air than someone who is not making their point well.
And to answer SH before he comes in and asks me if this was directed at him, all of Chabad, all of lubavitch or all of his decendants…….the answer is no. Unless they prescribe to CS’s beliefs and shittos.November 27, 2017 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1413187
Altho, I get why my sass and playful responses would appear youthful. I’m 22.November 27, 2017 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1413177
There is no custom, minhag it’s total nonsense ,you are following a minhag shtus. Halacha dictates who is moshiach the person has to meet the qualifications like this chat went through before the rebbe didn’t meet it 100%.The previous rebbe also wasn’t qualified to be moshiach so why would the rebbe defend him? The rambam gave us Halachas ,the gemaras in Sanhedrin isn’t making the rebbe qualify to be moshiach in the rambam These rabbonim were right there is no gemara that says the rebbe qualifies to be moshiach. Mocking people in an indirect way by a frabrengen isn’t right ecspecially rabbonim who were right and a chutzpah to say that they aren’t yearning for moshiachNovember 27, 2017 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #1413180
@Put down the gun
Different sources for that ideaNovember 27, 2017 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #1413208
Ur mixing up different things I’m afraid. And ur denial of this idea has far reaching consequences.November 27, 2017 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #1413213
The Rebbe didn’t mock people. U have no idea what ur saying. Comments like this I won’t respond toNovember 27, 2017 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #1413219
There is no my opinion or my husbands opinion on this topic it’s something for our physical leaders to guide us about.The leaders say he doesn’t qualify according to halacha to be moshiach,we don’t accept wrong mistaken views it’s a serious halachik matter.We are nice accepting people but we are firm in what’s Emes and this isntNovember 27, 2017 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #1413223
U can deny there is such a custom but I’ve seen the footnotes with my own eyes. Sorry.November 27, 2017 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #1413232
The majority of Jewish leaders are not versed in likuttei sichos and consider the Rebbes full arguments. There are plenty of rabbanim who say it’s fine. I’m happy to calmly and respectfully discuss the ideas with u, but don’t call my rebbe chutzpahdik. u have no idea who the Rebbe is if u think he goes around mocking people and making up minhagimNovember 27, 2017 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #1413242
These aren’t responses to my points of Emes ,we all don’t have opinions ,our physical leaders do.The rebbe was mocking rabbonim in an direct way about something they were correct about and saying they don’t yearn for moshiach Chas vshalomNovember 27, 2017 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #1413248slominerParticipant
Why is such a big deal being made of age? Both Chabadshlucha and Sechel HaYashar are in their low to mid 20s. Does it really make a big deal who is 2 years older or younger?November 27, 2017 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #1413255
Chas vshalom I didn’t mean what you thought I meant I was just trying to defend these rabbonim that these rabbonim had yearning for moshiach I was trying to protect their honorNovember 27, 2017 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #1413264ubiquitinParticipant
Im not saying “yaakov lo mes” isnt true. ch”v I am saying that it isnt literal. You agree
“But under both understandings, Yakov Avinu appeared dead to everyone around him. His body was indistinguishable from a dead body ”
Yep in a literal sense he died i.e no matter how closely you listen at maaros hamachpeila you wont hear him screaming out for air or food.
Of course in a very real (albeit not literal) sense he never died.
The opposite of literal isnt false.
The example I give is when I say during public speaking ” I have “Butterflies in my stomach” it is 100% true, I really am nervous. however it isnt literal meaning I dont actually have insects floating around in my belly.November 27, 2017 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #1413271
This is halachachik qualifications either you fit it or you don’t the gedolim decide this not minhag .I love you all it’s not good for me continue I already made mistakes the rabeinu Yona and Rav Chaim volozhiner and Chofetz Chaim discuss the seriousness of being mvazeh a Talmud chacham gadol batOrah.The Lubavitcher rebbe was, not is (I was by his levaya) an unbelievable leader unique in his,our generation who brought thousands closer to hashem he was a Goan in all areas of Torah, he loved all the jewish people cared worried for them like a father creating generations of leaders it goes on but it would be better for to stop at least for now so I don’t make anymore mistakes this is my Chinuch from the yeshiva world.November 27, 2017 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #1413272slominerParticipant
Can anyone, anyone, please quote the exact words (and source) of the Lubavitcher Rebbe saying he himself is Moshiach?November 27, 2017 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #14132775ishParticipant
“presenting a religious doctrine whos only base is that the leader himself told you to believe it defies logic, and arguably is halachically problematic.”
I don’t think it defies logic. Is it going to sound not normal to people who grow up with a conflicting world view? Yes. But defies logic? No. There are rational arguments that could be made to support such a thing.
Obviously though this is not the forum to present ideas that are dependent on large foundations, when the likelihood of presenting and communicating such a foundation effectively is not likely.
As an aside, I am shocked by the tone and language in use in this thread in general and by people from all sides and backgrounds. There are a lot of you who are not so interested in having a discussion, but more interested in grinding your axes about various things. There is no point in screaming past each other, other than ultimately wasteful self gratification.November 27, 2017 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1413279
“as my husband would prefer the whole Yeshiva not gossip about his wife’s posts if I give away my location 😉”
I totally get that, as I am a bochur.
“As for my personal position, that’s the house I grew up in and my private personal opinion also based on several igros I have seen. ”
I have no qualms with your personal opinion, as I’ve explained before.November 27, 2017 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1413282
Given your age, we’ve probably crossed paths before.November 27, 2017 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1413284
Sorry, unless you’re a woman, in which case we definitely haven’t.November 27, 2017 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #1413296CSParticipant
@syag I have said many times that this heavily relies on what the Rebbe says but I don’t get what’s about that. In fact, for me, it is more surprising you don’t take Rebbeim and tzaddikim more seriously
Maybe because as mentioned, tzaddikim seem to be in short supply nowadays, so you weren’t raised with this concept? If there’s something I am missing, please inform me. Below please find some Nigleh sources that prove this point. If you can rebut this point then, please do. Also im sorry if I come across as condescending – I highly respect you all our I wouldnt waste my time here, but what am I to make of the fact that act source brought is just ignored, and then the grand consensus is that were living in denial etc without bothering to address point by point?
“Vihei Morah Rabbuch kMorah Shomayim ” Pirkei avos
ויאמינו בה ובמשה עבדו (שמות)
Rambam hilchos tt chap 5:
Just as a person is commanded to honor his father and hold him in awe, so, too, is he obligated to honor his teacher and hold him in awe.
[Indeed, the measure of honor and awe] due one’s teacher exceeds that due one’s father. His father brings him into the life of this world, while his teacher, who teaches him wisdom, brings him into the life of the world to come.
[Accordingly,] if he saw a lost object belonging to his father and one belonging to his teacher, the lost object belonging to his teacher takes precedence. If his father and his teacher are both carrying loads, he should relieve his teacher’s load, and then his father’s. If his father and his teacher are held as captives, he should redeem his teacher, and afterwards, redeem his father. However, if his father is [also] a Torah sage, he should redeem his father first.
[Similarly,] if his father is a Torah sage – even if he is not equivalent to his teacher – he should return his lost article, and then that belonging to his teacher.
There is no greater honor than that due a teacher, and no greater awe than that due a teacher. Our Sages declared: “Your fear of your teacher should be equivalent to your fear of Heaven.”
Therefore, they said: Whoever disputes the authority of his teacher is considered as if he revolts against the Divine Presence, as implied [by Numbers 26:9]: “…who led a revolt against God.”
Whoever engages in controversy with his teacher is considered as if he engaged in controversy with the Divine Presence, as implied [by Numbers 20:13]: “…where the Jews contested with God and where He was sanctified.”
Whoever complains against his teacher is considered as if he complains against the Divine Presence, as implied [by Exodus 16:8]: “Your complaints are not against us, but against God.”
Whoever thinks disparagingly of his teacher is considered as if he thought disparagingly of the Divine Presence, as implied [by Numbers 21:5]: “And the people spoke out against God and Moses.”
According to you, the Rambam must’ve been a lubavitcher. I don’t know how else to understand the lack of understanding emunas Tzaddikim and respect of one’s Rebbe. Please explainNovember 27, 2017 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #1413301GAONParticipant
Whoa! This thread has really exploded since I last commented on Motzaei Shabbos!
in regard to comment #1411332 (https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/mesichists-explained-by-chabadshlucha/page/7
Regarding the two Rambams discussed –
In regards to Mosheach:
הלכות מלכים ומלחמות פרק יא
ט ואם לא הצליח עד כה, או נהרג—בידוע שאינו זה שהבטיחה עליו תורה, והרי הוא ככל מלכי בית דויד השלמים הכשרים שמתו. ולא העמידו הקדוש ברוך הוא אלא לנסות בו רבים, שנאמר “ומן המשכילים ייכשלו, לצרוף בהן ולברר וללבן—עד עת קץ: כי עוד, למועד”
In regards to to Nevuah Sheker:
הלכות יסודי התורה פרק י
ט אבל אם הבטיח על טובה ואמר שיהיה כך וכך, ולא באה הטובה שאמר–בידוע שהוא נביא שקר: שכל דבר טובה שיגזור האל, אפילו על תנאי–אינו חוזר. הא למדת, שבדברי הטובה בלבד ייבחן הנביא.
You had responded to the explanations in the diyukim raised – in summary – that the Rambam still applies to someone dead and that there is Chidush Halacha of a diff regarding “dying” and killed”. I claimed there is practical simplistic reason why the Rambam spelled out “killed” rather then “die”, and there is no significance in killed over dying :
“Forgive me, but I fail to see where u have rebutted what I said. ….but I’ve already said that the Rebbe said the Rambam is bediuk”
Firstly, here is another example of narrow minded thinking; the very concept of “diyukim in the Rambam has NOTHING to do with the “Rebbe”. And if the Rebbe is the only one, then anyone else has no obligations to follow, as the Torah and Rambam has been around for hundreds of years.
In fact, I come from a place where Diyukim in Rambam are heavy emphasized and taught. However, the difference is, it’s also taught what, HOW and when to apply diyukim – just because you have “diyuk” “x” does not mean you can conclude Halchah “y”. You don’t base Halcha on “diyukim” alone, you need proof from diff sources and thus can you apply and fit into the Rambam. NO ONE would EVER be Mattir an Agunah on such “diyukim” – so why is the Ikrei Emunah different?
I will hence quote the Rebbe Rashab which actually befits this very kind of mindset of such Chidushim:
קונטרס עץ החיים P 58
אבל הזהרו מאד וכו’ ואל תתחברו עם כאלה וכו’ שמחדשים חידושים וכו’ וע”ד הלצה אני אומר שמחדשים חידושים ממש – שלא נאמרו למשה רבינו כי כל מה שתלמיד ותיק עתיד לחדש נאמר למשה מסיני וכו’ אבל התלמיד שאינו הגון הנ”ל מחדש חידושים ממש – שלא נאמרו למשה בסיני.
The Rogtachover used to say when one would say such “chiddushim” and then stubbornly say if you don’t agree nu “שלאג” up the chiddush :
” אז עס איז ניט צוגשלאגן דארף מען אים ניט אפשלאגן ”
cont-November 27, 2017 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1413302GAONParticipant
Cont – @ MC
“U say “not succeed” is the same as killed. Ok, but then why write killed? “
I already gave you a simple logic reason why the Rambam could have singled out “killed” – my point is not exactly to explain and delve into the Rambam. The point is to show that whatever you derive from these Diyukim can be directed into many other simplified pshutim – without having to be “meChadsh” new Halachas and Hanachos- on why the Rmbam says “killed”.
ואם לא הצליח עד כה, או נהרג—בידוע שאינו זה שהבטיחה עליו תורה, והרי הוא ככל מלכי בית דויד השלמים הכשרים שמתו. ולא העמידו הקדוש ברוך הוא אלא לנסות בו רבים, שנאמר “ומן המשכילים ייכשלו, לצרוף בהן ולברר וללבן—עד עת קץ: …
The simple pshat in Rambam indicates that once the alleged Moshiach is “nistalek” Niftar” Dies” – the process is over – done with!
You want to say some other pshatim, you can say ANYONE can arise and be Mosheach, but as far as the above process goes, it is “לא הצליח” and over with.
And if you want to go with “Zochu”, then the Rebbe is by the most, as good as anyone else is. You cannot have it both ways.
Note – all the above is all based on the assumption that there was indeed any process of “chezkas Moshiach”. But as I have pointed out in the beginning of this thread – that has either not been achieved, and thus disqualifying him as the candidate all together, and despite Rav SB Wolpo trying diyukim shonim uMeshunim to say it doesn’t have to be achieved – the Mabi”t in Kiryat Sefer is very clear not like him. ואכמ”לNovember 27, 2017 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #1413303
“As an aside, I am shocked by the tone and language in use in this thread in general and by people from all sides and backgrounds. There are a lot of you who are not so interested in having a discussion, but more interested in grinding your axes about various things. There is no point in screaming past each other, other than ultimately wasteful self gratification.”
I couldn’t have said it better myself.
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