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And in the same vein if you cannot understand the moral problems with forcing a women to Arbitrate in a place she does not want to Arbitrate, or not making sure she understands the ramifications of signing a “Shtar Berurin” about something as important and real as cutody of her Children. I have nothing to say to you either.
nishtdayngesheft:
Please reread what I wrote. Please explain the connection between my comment and your response to it.
Medium – I am firmly in the camp of not telling others what to do with their lives, so I won’t list what I think others should do. Sorry if that sounds counter to what many believe is toras moshe misinai, but it is my perspective, and I don’t see myself as someone who is perfect enough in my own observance to have the temerity to tell others how to improve theirs.
For myself, I think the most important thing I have done and can do is see the best in each individual Jew, and learn what I can from them. I have learned incredible lessons in ahavas yisroel, in tzedokoh, in veohavto loreacho komocho from totally secular Jews, from Jews who consider themselves reform and conservative. (I have learned these lessons from chareidi and MO Jews as well.)I have seen selflessness and a willingness to give 100% of her time, effort, and consciousness to the future of the Jewish people from an Ethiopian Israeli woman who considers herself secular, but nonetheless transmitted Torah values to the young people she worked with. I have worked with the most broad spectrum of people imaginable in the Jewish world. There is one mostly secular woman, in a very small town far from anywhere, with a tiny Jewish community, who decided to stay instead of retiring to live near her grandkids because she was the only one left in the town who had been taught how to perform a taharah and had been doing so for 30 years, and the older people were all that was left in the community. That is an incredible dedication to am Yisroel. I hope I can continue to do this, and to remind myself as well that I should look inwards to see the beauty that is apparent in our community as well, and not only being critical of its shortcomings, within the higher standards it sets for itself.
the statement below is not intended to be about the woman in question as she claims she is observant and i am not about to question her on that.
but…
i know i am not particularly liked around here for this opinion but my view has always been: if someone wants to leave the fold then just let them.
judaism is about quality not quantity and has historically been that way. id rather have a powerful torah observant jewish nation than one diluted with the drek that is the american jew.
they are happier leaving, we should be just as happy. you want to intermarry? go right on ahead. marry the same gender? mazal tov!
i dont see the point in keep unaffiliated jews tied to a religion they will come to hate. hashem gives them bechira why should man take that away from them? trust me, the jewish nation will survive and flourish beautifully with or without garbage jews like noam chomsky, norm finklestein, elmer berger and similar anti semites. i wish these people were not jewish. what good does it do for anyone (other than having a nice channuka song come out once every few years) that all these hollywood guys are jewish? why should i want all these people to stay jewish?
being jewish is a privilege and an honor and if someone does not appreciate that privilege then quite frankly they shouldnt have it.
id very much love to see a jewish world which is 75% observant with zero reformed temples and the best way to get to that dream is intermarriage and gay marriage. i support them both.
Beis Din is authorized to beat someone until they comply with halacha.
Doswin, I thought you were gone for good. Or at least had turned over a new leaf. Oh well.
Yeah, Doswin, that’ll work. And as I said before, she’ll transmit her love for Torah and Yiddishkeit really well to her children once you’ve beaten her into submission. Come to think of it, I’m sure that having seen their mother being beaten into submission, the children will spontaneously develop a deep and abiding love for Torah, the Jewish community, and the authorities who facilitated the beating.
Is this what we’ve come to? YIDDEN!!! Recourse to beating people to do mitzvos? We have no better strategies? Ribono shel olam, is this all we have to offer to Jews who have left the fold?
Rambam in Moreh Nevuchim indicates that animal korbanos were an inferior way of serving hashem and served their purpose in differentiating Judaism from idolatry, but it may be that in the future they will not be necesary, as their tafkid is also served in other ways, primarily through mitzvos and tfilos.
Perhaps this is the way we should look at the “authority” to beat people into submission (and yes, I’ve looked at all of the sources in the gemoro). It may be permitted, but is it useful? Is it advisable? Are their better ways to achieve the objective of returning someone to observance?
besalel I agree with you 100% however being clall yisroel is about being 1 clall and we should all feel pain when someone else is “hurting”
Besalel-
We have arvus..we(each one of us) are responsible for every other Yid. When they do an aveirah, HKB”H asks us why. what did we do to bring them to Torah and Mitzvos. We are all obligated to do kiruv. No yid can be written off. Even though that would be the easiest thing, but L’fum tzara agra.We may not be able to accomplish the kiruv with certain people. that is sad. We have to feel bad about that.
mz: you are probably right. if my children were to leave the fold, id probably be very sad about it. and we jews should feel like family with one another. so youre probably right that we should feel bad. i simply dont. i am not saying that everyone should feel the way i do. i am just saying that this is how i actually feel not how i should feel.
Besalel – I wonder how G-d feels about his “drek child”….
No Jew is lost. If necessary, there’s always the next gilgul (as pointed out by the Mishneh Berurah in Hilchos Yom Kippur).
New news story- OTD Lakewood woman with 4 kids wants custody
The title is a dead giveaway to what this post is really all about. It’s about YENTAHS. The attempt to present it as a sincere question and all this talk about gedolim and arvus is pathetic. Do yourself and your neighbors a favor and MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS. And next time be nice and try a more tactful title.
BSD, NOT IN THE JEWISH RELIGION!
000646, a rashanta does not the right to spoil her kids al pi Torah. Period.
646 -“They are fighting for JOINT CUSTODY the father dosnt want the mother to have any custody. The mother is not asking for exclusive custody.
If you really do not insitinctevly see the moral issue with taking away a mother’s rights to see her children because you do not agree with her lifestyle there is really nothing I could say to you.”
You obviously know nothing about NJ law. He probably wants total custody -so he will get residential custody. If he agrees to joint custody -most likely she will get residential custody. Do you have any proof he is trying to take away her parenting rights? I think you’re making assumptions because you don’t know how divorce/family courts/law work in NJ.
Logician -“No Jew is lost. If necessary, there’s always the next gilgul (as pointed out by the Mishneh Berurah in Hilchos Yom Kippur).”
Acc. to a Sefer I saw -Gilgul is only for men. Women get one chance and that’s it.
Health,
The case has already been settled in a B”D. So the courts will usually defer to an Arbitrated agreement
(a psak B”D has this legal status because they coerce the women to sign an Arbitration agreement under the threat that she can never receive a Get if she does not sign. They also call it a “shtar berurin” and do not explain the legal ramifications of signing it)
The B”D ruled that the couple should share custody by alternating weekends and some weekdays. A special clause stipulated that Ms. Reich must raise the children religiously and that a beth-din-appointed therapist shall evaluate her periodically to ensure conformity with this clause.
What the husband is trying to do is find her in violation of the religious clause and and take away the days she currently has with her children.
Health- I’d question that sefer, from what I’ve learned from my rebeim is that all neshamos are gilgulim today.
stop blaming yiddishkeit. blame the choitah.
Did anyone actually read anything about the case? The reason she left is because she was fed up with the community. Her husband was abusive, she even had a restraining order against him, but she couldn’t get a divorce. Her parents pushed against it, the Rabbis pushed against it, nobody would help her get away from her abusive husband. That’s why she left.
Source please
Health,
The case has already been settled in a B”D. So the courts will usually defer to an Arbitrated agreement
(a psak B”D has this legal status because they coerce the women to sign an Arbitration agreement under the threat that she can never receive a Get if she does not sign. They also call it a “shtar berurin” and do not explain the legal ramifications of signing it)
The B”D ruled that the couple should share custody by alternating weekends and some weekdays. A special clause stipulated that Ms. Reich must raise the children religiously and that a beth-din-appointed therapist shall evaluate her periodically to ensure conformity with this clause.
What the husband is trying to do is find her in violation of the religious clause and and take away the days she currently has with her children.
646: For good reason. She is in fact in violation of maintaining a Torah lifestyle, as clearly evidenced by the photos she publicly posed for and supplied the media. Furthermore, every divorcing couple SHOULD be arbitrating their divorce in Beis Din as halacha demands them to.
And even IF she had maintained the religious lifestyle she agreed to, there is no more reason that she should have primary custody than that HE should have primary custody. There is no basis to give a mother automatic preferance over the father.
Additionally, she is getting divorced not because of her false claims of abuse that she publicly and falsely advanced in order to win sympathy (does anyone have even a shred of evidence of that, other than this evil woman’s claims?), but rather because she engaged in adultery, immorality, public immodesty, and violating every tenet of our faith.
Naisberg,
You said:
“For good reason. She is in fact in violation of maintaining a Torah lifestyle, as clearly evidenced by the photos she publicly posed for and supplied the media.
Furthermore, every divorcing couple SHOULD be arbitrating their divorce in Beis Din as halacha demands them to.”
Your opinions as to were somebody should Arbitrate custody of their children is completely irrelevant to anyone but you.
Do you really not understand the moral problems with forcing a women to Arbitrate in a place she does not want to Arbitrate, or not making sure she understands the ramifications of signing a “Shtar Berurin” about something as important and real as cutody of her Children?
Do you honestly do not understand the moral issue with taking away a mother’s rights to see her children because you do not agree with her lifestyle?
If you cannot see the moral issues here I have nothing to say to you.
Naisberg,
You said,
“Additionally, she is getting divorced not because of her false claims of abuse that she publicly and falsely advanced in order to win sympathy (does anyone have even a shred of evidence of that, other than this evil woman’s claims?), but rather because she engaged in adultery, immorality, public immodesty, and violating every tenet of our faith.”
I have no idea if her claims of abuse are true or not and have no reason to believe either way.
Why she wants a divorce is irrelevant.
I don’t care if it’s simply because she decided she and her husband have “irreconcilable differences” and therefore wants out.
What is sickening is using a Get to force someone to Arbitrate custody in a B”D, (especially when the state of the B”D system is what everyone knows it is).
What is sickening is telling a mother she must remain frum in order to have any custody of her children.
What is sickening is not clearly explaining that signing a Shtar berurin gives the B”D the legal authority to do whatever they want with your children.
There are so many problems here that anyone with a moral compass should see instinctively that I am not even sure how to argue it. (If someone would ask me what is morally wrong with threatening to harm somebody’s children if they do not listen to you, I would say the same thing- it’s just WRONG!)
Gosh-Were did our community lose the sense of morality that makes us human??
Not being a reader of the New York Post, I had to check their webpage. The story clearly indicates that there were major problems in their marriage from day one. Maybe it is time to reconsider the ‘arranged’ marriages when the two sides meet for the first time on their wedding day.
just when you think the ridiculousness of some people hit rock bottom you encounter a debate between health and think first over the nature of gilgulim.
i suggest that you take any saifer that discusses gilgulim and put it aside. pick up a gemarah.
how in the world would anyone know the “science” of gilgulim?
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Moreover, the Yismach Moshe claimed he was a gilgul of a sheep. argue what you may about the sanity of someone who makes such an outlandish statement, i find it difficult to imagine that someone who believes in gilgulim can believe that you can come back from sheephood but not womanhood. i would imagine that if a saifer existed stating that women cannot come back, it was written by a misogynist in order to attract the attention of fellow misogynists.
Blabbing about other people is not arvus. In fact it fosters the exact opposite.
Naisberg, you say there is no evidence to her claims, but do you have evidence to your claims of “adultery, immorality, public immodesty, and violating every tenet of our faith”?
646 -“What the husband is trying to do is find her in violation of the religious clause and and take away the days she currently has with her children.”
Well if she truly is in violation, then there is a reason why she should be punished. Do you think this doesn’t happen in secular courts?
The problem with you is – you don’t think that whatever a Bais Din does has any validity. This is because you have been influenced by liberalism. This might come as a shock to you, but most secular courts in this country, except for of course -NY & NJ courts, will enforce a religious agreement clause.
Stop being such an antisemitie because of your bad childhood!
I happen to personally know this women and her family and just to make sure that everyone knows that she is an unstable women. All the stories that she writes are made-up and are just to get everyone to side with her. I happen to know her poor children and they’re so confused from their mother who acts like a goy. I see this women dressed in public and it is very inappropriate!! Her husband does not want his children being raised by this women who confuses their religious beliefs and I agree with him!
Think first -“Health- I’d question that sefer, from what I’ve learned from my rebeim is that all neshamos are gilgulim today.”
And there are those that question whether there even is such a thing as Gilgul. (Reshash)
But the source is a Choshuve Sefer. It’s not my fault that you & your Rebbeyim never heard of this. The more you learn -the more you know.
1. It’s a Machlokes whether there is such a thing as Gilgul.
2. One Sefer says this (Gilgul) applies only to men. I haven’t heard anybody say it applies to women. Saying e/o is a Gilgul – can just mean whomever this can apply to; namely men, not women!
Health you said,
“Well if she truly is in violation, then there is a reason why she should be punished. Do you think this doesn’t happen in secular courts?”
You missed the point!!! If the women did not want to Arbitrate with the B”D what they think she should do is irrelevant! If a random arbitrator “Paskened” that you have to give your spouse custody of your children without you submitting a legal document authorizing them to arbitrate, do you think it would be binding?!
You said,
“This might come as a shock to you, but most secular courts in this country, except for of course -NY & NJ courts, will enforce a religious agreement clause.”
The only reason Secular courts will enforce a B”D ruling is because the parties in the dispute signed a “Shtar Berurin” (which is a legal document called “an agreement to submit to binding arbitration”)
Of course the B”D leaves out the fact the the women these cases are FORCED to sign the document.
You said,
“Stop being such an antisemitie because of your bad childhood”
Were did that come from?
Health –
“Choshuve sefer” ain’t gonna do it for anyone here. Source please.
I would like to obtain “a Choshuve Sefer”. Is it sold on Amazon? What is the ISBN?
🙂
“you don’t think that whatever a Bais Din does has any validity”
I guess you think that any time 3 Rabbis who call themselves dayanim say anything to anyone everybody is required to listen.
In order for a B”D to have any authority AL PI HALACHA (forget secular laws) The parties have to both willingly agree to submit to the B”D. The B”D will even make the parties do a Kinyan to pass the authority to them. Without this even Al Pi Halacha the B”D has NO authority whatsoever.
And Al Pi Halacha, using secular court is an issur gamur normally. They MUST, al pi halacha, arbitrate their dispute in A B”D, whichever one it is. Secular court is NOT an option for a Jew.
There are three sides to every failed marriage. His side, her side and the truth. Going on and on about this without intimate knowledge of the entire picture helps nobody. It only further embarrasses the family.
And Al Pi Halacha, using secular court is an issur gamur normally. They MUST, al pi halacha, arbitrate their dispute in A B”D, whichever one it is. Secular court is NOT an option for a Jew.
Creedmoor Chassidus and Doswin are strong believers in this, especially claiming Kim Li that Kol D’Alim Gavar. 🙂
Do a google search on Rav Shechter and the “terrible Bais din system” in Ami Magazine
And Al Pi Halacha, using secular court is an issur gamur normally. They MUST, al pi halacha, arbitrate their dispute in A B”D, whichever one it is. Secular court is NOT an option for a Jew.
Then I guess my great-grandfather violated halacha when he used a secular court to become a U.S. citizen in 1890. I guess I also violated halacha when a judge asked to speak to me during my parents’ divorce*.
The Wolf (who hates all Jews because he’s a Zionist)
* Note: My parents weren’t frum when the divorce proceeding started, so naturally they went to secular court. During the process, my mother and I became frum. When the judge asked to speak to me, I was already frum by that point. I suppose I should have refused to go, been convicted of contempt of court and been sent to juvenile detention.
Naisberg,
You said,
“And Al Pi Halacha, using secular court is an issur gamur normally. They MUST, al pi halacha, arbitrate their dispute in A B”D, whichever one it is. Secular court is NOT an option for a Jew.”
Thank you for telling us your beliefs on this matter.
I would hope even you would understand that forcing your belief on someone under threat of making it impossible for them to marry ever again is wrong.
Furthermore I am sure you understand that in such a system the women has no say in which B”D custody is arbitrated in, being that the Husband is the only one that could give the Get.
Even according to you I would think it should be understood that forcing people to sign legal documents is wrong, especially without explaining what the ramifications of signing the document are.
My turn. I know nothing about this case, so any comments are only about the subject matter in general.
Batei Din have both parties sign a Shtar Berurin, essentially an arbitration contract that obligates them to accept the decision. If a beis din is corrupt, all sorts of shenanigans can occur, and sometimes do. However, the document ends up in court, not always an arkaos problem because divorces and custody matters need the official psak from court. Many batei din have this shtar written and signed in Hebrew and in English. This shtar/document is now a legal contract, and one needs to follow it to the letter of the law, regardless of whether it is fair or not. Batei din are perceived to be unfair to women, but that is usually not true. Either side can manipulate, fabricate, withhold evidence, and this gets reflected in the proceedings in beis din.
If a custodial parent fails to raise children according to the agreed religious lifestyle, then there is a violation that will be addressed by the court as breaking the arbitration agreement.
There are cases where women claim to continue living a frum lifestyle, just not chassidish, but are really living as goyim (except to dress up for the court). This needs to be documented, and challenged as a breach of the arbitration agreement.
No one is “forced” to sign anything. If they do so, without reviewing it, they might have signed away a lot, and there may not be any recourse for them.
Lastly, using a get as “ransom” is intolerable, no matter who does it. However, it is foolish to conclude the marriage with the get when the other matters of the breakup (settling issues of custody, division of property, financial agreements, etc) have not been completed first. Most batei din follow this path, and it is reasonable. If the two sides do not agree, no one is “withholding” the get.
The little I know,
Ok so let’s say a women says she wants a get but wants to Determine custody in secular court. What would happen? Would the B”D say fine and tell the husband to give a Get? Or would they compell her under the threat of not receiving a get to Arbitrate with a BD?
If someone receives a Hazmana and tells the B”D they do not want to Arbitrate in a B”D would they not be threatened with a Seruv etc.
Using the fact that someone is entrenched in a community you are part of to coerce them to work with an Arbitration system they have no interest in using is an abuse of power and force.
Furthermore you have not addressed how it is made sure that the husband does not compell his wife under threat of never receiving a get to Arbitrate in a B”D of his choice without giving her a say.
Wolf- Note: My parents weren’t frum when the divorce proceeding started, so naturally they went to secular court. During the process, my mother and I became frum. When the judge asked to speak to me, I was already frum by that point. I suppose I should have refused to go, been convicted of contempt of court and been sent to juvenile detention.
When one his married civilly, besides the religious ceremony, then the parties MUST go to civil court to disolve the civil marriage. Dina d’malchusa dina.
Also wether or not she receives a get does not need to have any bearing on ending the civil marriage and determining custody. In a civil court the women can divorce the man as well this would even the playing field
Wolf- I don’t know you except by your contributions on this website but I love how you sign yourself “who hates all jews because he is a zionist”. It shows the absurdity of some poeple’s ideas.
sorry besalel, but by adding your “morever”, you’ve entered this ridiculous debate 🙂
Hi Health: “Acc. to a Sefer I saw -Gilgul is only for men. Women get one chance and that’s it.”
I am not sure which Sefer you are referring to, but women can have multiple Gilgulim; e.g., Yael (in Nach) went through multiple Gilgulim (Gilgulei HaNeshamot of R’ Yehezkel and Sefer Gilgulei Neshamot of Rama MiPano)
Wolf-
Really not up to your usual standard, the discussion was clearly about arbitrating disputes, not civil matters. You might actually be innocent on this one 🙂
RT -“I am not sure which Sefer you are referring to”
Sefer Taamey Haminhagim.
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