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logician says: sorry besalel, but by adding your “morever”, you’ve entered this ridiculous debate 🙂
you are 100% correct. kibalti.
i guess thats why youre the logician.
ok Health, i saw it.
Even though besalel is right, and we’ve no clue what we’re talking about, I would point out the following:
1)Many other sources don’t seem to say this, one page earlier the Ta’amei HaMinhagim brings from R’ Noson Adler a pshat explaining the circumstances when a man comes back as a gilgul as a women, so its def. not so simple.
2)You’re point was, I believe, that she only “gets one chance”. If you read carefully, he says that a women’s din is only in the next world, meaning that there’s simply a different system, and gilgul happens not to be an option. That does not mean she’s done for.
My original point was that every Jew has a place in Klal Yisrael, and will never be lost – “bal yidach mimeni nidach”. [Kares etc. notwithstanding]. Gilgul was just an example, and the one used by the Chofetz Chaim I quoted.
000646 -You should know I wrote a response to every single one of your so-called points, but it was deleted.
Not one of your posts has any logic in them, let alone it shows your adversary to the Torah system with the use of Bais Din to give judgements.
You said,
“000646 -You should know I wrote a response to every single one of your so-called points, but it was deleted.
Not one of your posts has any logic in them, let alone it shows your adversary to the Torah system with the use of Bais Din to give judgements.”
What a response! if you actually wrote what you say you wrote (although this message board is not known for deleting comments defending the frum community)
I hope they approve it soon.
In any case here are some qoutes about the current state of B”D system by no less the Rav Hershel Shachter:
“Do you think that all of the dayanim are honest? Many are acting like toanim; many of the toanim are acting like criminals. They make up their minds in advance that their side has to win.”
In response to the question could there be a watchdog group, with rabbanim getting together to examine how the batei din are behaving?
[possible danger]
[summons]. They misuse the seruv. They vilify him, and if there would be a seruv against him, he would lose his job. He is a rabbi.”You see that is what a prominent ORTHODOX RAV is willing to say ON THE RECORD. Feel free to google the qoutes if you think I am twisting the context of anything.
The reality is a good deal worse then Rav Shechter said publicly-he was being kind.
Forgive me if I do not trust B”D to arbitrate something as important as custody of children.
Forgive me if i think people should be warned not to sign an Arbitration agreement with people who’s OWN leaders say are chashud on Shfichas Damim
To 646:
The Beis Din has the option of allowing the court to rule on custody. If so, there will be permission granted, and this should always be in writing. However, it is unwise to have the get given when issues such as custody are still not resolved. Beis Din does NOT use withholding of the get as a threat. They can note, usually with full justification that since matters are still not resolved, the get would not be a true krisus, and should not be done yet. Beis din does not threaten.
It is common for people to avoid going to the beis din that is part of their immediate community for obvious social reasons. They are free to look for other batei din, and our community has many options. No one is forced to go a specific beis din. There is NO abuse of power or force.
000646: American courts are as corrupt as they get. Whatever problems may exist in beis din, they are thousands of times worse in secular court.
Furthermore, if the wife tries to discard the Torah and halacha in using arkaos (secular court) against halacha to seek more favorable treatment in custody and asset distribution issues, the beis din would be correct to advise her to also try to get her “get” issued by a secular court. Since if she refuses to use beis din when she is halachicly required to for money and custody issues, beis din in turn will not be at her service in getting a “get” for her. She shouldn’t think that when it suits her needs she can choose to demand beis din help her get a halachic get, when at the same time she refuses follow halacha in other areas beis din has halachic jurisdiction.
Batei Din are also known (I know of one case first hand) to threaten people that there kids will be taken out of school if someone refuses to Arbitrate in a B”D or opposes a Psak in secualr Court
The little I know,
I tried editing my response to you. The mods didnt let my last one up.
Cheftza,
You said:”
American courts are as corrupt as they get. Whatever problems may exist in beis din, they are thousands of times worse in secular court.”
Some may be corrupt and if you beleive that is the case you can appeal to a higer court, and if the Judge was corrupt he will go to prison. It’s called oversight. It dosnt exsist in the B”D system.
You said,
“Furthermore, if the wife tries to discard the Torah and halacha in using arkaos (secular court) against halacha to seek more favorable treatment in custody and asset distribution issues, the beis din would be correct to advise her to also try to get her “get” issued by a secular court. Since if she refuses to use beis din when she is halachicly required to for money and custody issues, beis din in turn will not be at her service in getting a “get” for her. She shouldn’t think that when it suits her needs she can choose to demand beis din help her get a halachic get, when at the same time she refuses follow halacha in other areas beis din has halachic jurisdiction. “
The guy has to give her a Get. End of story. If they wish to issue a hazmana to her after to ask her to submit for a ruling on custody and or assets. Or tell her she is forbidden Al Pi halacha to try in Arkaos let them do that.
American courts are as corrupt as they get. Whatever problems may exist in beis din, they are thousands of times worse in secular court
Read the Article the GADOL Rav Shechter in Ami Magazine
HE says the Beis Dins are corrupt and he says other Gadols will tell people (privately) to seek recourse in secular courts because the Beis Dins are so corrupt.
000646: As they very well should. Opposing a psak in secular court (or choosing a secular court to arbitrate as opposed to beis din) is strictly against Jewish Law, as you very well know (assuming you are an Orthodox Jew). As such, a beis din is completely within its right, legally and morally and ethically, to use communal pressure to encourage someone to adhere to halacha. (And applying such pressure is completely within the secular law of the land.)
To 646:
“Batei Din are also known (I know of one case first hand) to threaten people that there kids will be taken out of school if someone refuses to Arbitrate in a B”D or opposes a Psak in secular Court.”
I am sure you can succeed in finding shoemakers, politicians, lawyers, rabbonim, dayanim, and grocers who are dishonest, and downright evil in their ways. You know of one such case, and I know more than one. But that does not legitimize going to arka’os, and it does not mean that there is any reason to buck the halacha because you want to or feel you are being treated unfairly.
The threat stuff you speak of is not done by a beis din, but as a personal matter from one or more members of the BD. As I acknowledge, there are some rotten, corrupt, and evil people out there, and they can be found in any field or career. You are looking to trash the entire concept of beis din because you disagree with some things that have happened. Well I will not throw out the baby with the bathwater. The corrupt dayanim will certainly get what they deserve at some point, and I agree that the community deserves to be rid of them. You are not addressing individuals, but an entire system. That is flagrantly against Shulchan Aruch, and no one should accept this approach.
Cheftza
You said,
“As they very well should. Opposing a psak in secular court (or choosing a secular court to arbitrate as opposed to beis din) is strictly against Jewish Law, as you very well know (assuming you are an Orthodox Jew). As such, a beis din is completely within its right, legally and morally and ethically, to use communal pressure to encourage someone to adhere to halacha. (And applying such pressure is completely within the secular law of the land.)”
Again I will repeat what I said above. If you do not see the Moral and Ethical problems with threatning to harm somebodys innocent children in order to get them to do something, I have nothing to say to you.
Cheftza,
Also would you mind substantiating your claim that “Whatever problems may exist in beis din, they are thousands of times worse in secular court”?
Again I qouted an Orthodox jewish leader above who clearly says that it would be physically dangerous to try to oppoint an oversight commitee. Are people who a prominent orthodox leader is afraid would kill an oversight commitee the kind of people you want arbitrating anything (forget something involving children like custody?)
He also said about dayanim,
“Many are acting like toanim; many of the toanim are acting like criminals. They make up their minds in advance that their side has to win.”
Again this is a PROMINENT ROV who said this!
646, The comment you quoted makes no referance to threatening harm to anyones children. You are being completely disingenuous and leave the strong impression you have no arguable response.
The little I know,
Look B”D is a great concept. I am all for it.
But if there is no oversight or place to appeal too it is impossible for the system to stay straight. Absoloute power corrupts absoloutly!
If individual dayanim can threaten people who agreed to Arbitrate with them and there is no one to turn to to have them “Disbarred” that makes a B”D a very dangerous place to Arbitrate anything.
“You are not addressing individuals, but an entire system”
How can you ask people to Arbitrate anything let alone things having to do with children in a system with no oversight and no place to turn if the Dayanim are corrupt??
Cheftaz you said,
“Since if she refuses to use beis din when she is halachicly required to for money and custody issues, beis din in turn will not be at her service in getting a “get” for her.”
You make it sound like B”D is some sort of free service offered to people in the community. B”D charges a nice amount of money (on par with what most Lawers charge) by the hour, for evrey document they write and evrey action they take. That is without a Toen a Toen will cost usally an additional 250-300 an hour.
So one is asking for any services, if I made 250 an hour I would be very happy
naisberg,
The comment I qouted was not to back up my assertion about hurting children I (and the poster “The little I know”) Have seen this firsthand. Threatning to throw someones children out of school is threatning to harm somebody’s children.
You are right though the qoute talks about how it would be too dangereous to appoint an oversight comittee for bate Din because the dayanim would kill them-
It’s right up there although I do think I should have been clearer that qoute says enough about the system that my first hand knowledge of dayanim threatning to harm children is unneccesary in any case
Also in my limited life experience straight people tend not to be dangerous to try and oversee. It’s usally people who you would want to shower after talking too that people are afraid for their lives to try and oversee
000646: One example is relatively recently a Brooklyn Family Court judge was arrested and charged with taking bribes and deciding custody based on bribes. He was busted; imagine how many are still getting away with it and other travesties against justice.
If a party to a case discards Jewish Law, he or she should not expect a Jewish Court to facilitate his or her Jewish Court needs, such as getting a get. This has nothing to do with children.
646 -“You are right though the qoute talks about how it would be too dangereous to appoint an oversight comittee for bate Din because the dayanim would kill them-“
Noone ever taught you what an exaggeration is?
Yes, there are corrupt Bais Dins.
Yes, some will try to get their way by threats.
But by & large most care about upholding the Torah.
Do the state courts care about the Torah?
You want women to just demand the Bais Din to insist that the husband gives the Get -she can get it without ever giving in on anything.
This is called my way or the highway.
Not only is this immaturity and going against Halacha -it’s morally wrong!
Health,
Removing barriers to the women getting remarried namely giving her a get will have no bearing on the allocation of assets or custody. The women can still be sued in BD or secular court if she has received a get, a get would not even dissolve the civil marriage.
Furthermore Rav Hershel shachter was talking practically. he was asked why he didn’t form an oversight committee for batei din he answered because the people on the committee will get killed
Cheftza,
The Jewish courts are paid handsomely for their time no one is asking for any services
Cheftza,
What your story indicates to me is that there is oversight in secular courts and corrupt judges get busted. We all agree that there are corrupt batei din when was the last time you heard of a corrupt Dayan going to prison?
Also would you mind telling me what recourse one has if they suspect judicial misconduct by the Dayanim on a B”D?
646– you mentioned a “prominent Rov” well in the Organization where he is the Spiritual leader having forums about gays and lesbians is ok, that which our Torah calls an abomination becomes a discusion, well not prominent to me. Sorry.
000646, If she is discarding halacha and is using secular courts in non-accordance with halacha to, say, deny her husband visitation to his children, then the B”D has the right to withhold her get until she stops using the secular courts to go end-run halacha and the rulings of the Jewish Court. If she end-runs the Jewish Court, she has no leg or basis to stand on to insist the beis din facilitate a get for her — which is probably to only effective levarage the B”D has to get her to comply with halacha (which in the example she is denying child visitation to her husband by using th goyish courts). Once she gets her get she can, and by her actions has made clear she will, spit in B”D and halacha’s face regarding her halachic obligations, after she got her halachic needs (i.e. a get) facilitated by the Jewish Court.
Cheftza You said,
“000646, If she is discarding halacha and is using secular courts in non-accordance with halacha to, say, deny her husband visitation to his children, then the B”D has the right to withhold her get until she stops using the secular courts to go end-run halacha and the rulings of the Jewish Court.”
Who said anything about denying visitation? If the guy is not abusive Secular courts will always give him visitation rights!
You said,
“If she end-runs the Jewish Court, she has no leg or basis to stand on to insist the beis din facilitate a get for her — which is probably to only effective levarage the B”D has to get her to comply with halacha (which in the example she is denying child visitation to her husband by using th goyish courts).”
Using a Get for leverage is wrong. Threatening to use your influence as a Rov to harm somebody’s children as leverage is wrong. I do not understand what part of this you do not understand.
If you could show a real recourse somebody has if they suspect Judicial misconduct AND you could show me how the B”D system provides oversight to make sure that no corruption happens and stop it when it does; I could maybe hear you when you say someone is being unreasonable by not wanting to Arbitrate custody and or assets in a B”D.
However there is no oversight, no recourse for someone who is the victim of Judicial misconduct, it is “against halacha” to even report a Dayan to secular court for Judicial misconduct. So I kind of hear why somebody would say they do not wish to Arbitrate custody of their children in such a system.
You said,
“Once she gets her get she can, and by her actions has made clear she will, spit in B”D and halacha’s face regarding her halachic obligations, after she got her halachic needs (i.e. a get) facilitated by the Jewish Court.”
Yup. It’s called Galus… It kind of stinks. It doesn’t give people the right to use whatever they can get their hands on as “leverage” in order to blackmail people to comply with you. Certain things are wrong and that is that.
Think first,
You said,
“646– you mentioned a “prominent Rov” well in the Organization where he is the Spiritual leader having forums about gays and lesbians is ok, that which our Torah calls an abomination becomes a discusion, well not prominent to me. Sorry.”
I will not debate the greatness of someone like the Rav I quoted above. I will say however that whatever you may think of him he knows the system is a leader in it and knows what he is talking about to say the very least.
Cheftza,
One more point.
If B”D was a free service offered to the members of the frum community then although I would still feel it is the obligation of a B”D to facilitate a women receiving a Get regardless were she decides to arbitrate custody etc.
I could at least hear a little (as unjust, unprofessional and wrong as I would still believe it would be) a B”D refusing to facilitate a Get unless the women is part of the community they offer this free service too. However B”D charges for every hour the Dayanim sit on a case, they charge for every Hazmana, they charge an Arm and a Leg for everything they can possibly charge for, so this whole “refusing to service” thing is silly.
000646: A B”D is most certainly in its right to deny a get or use it as leverage, depending on the circumstances as I described above. Indeed, contrary to your feelings, halacha does not allow a wife to demand a get-on-demand whenever she feels like it, with or without cause. It needs to be halachicly justified. And if she refuses to fulfil her halachic duties, the B”D can, and justifiable does, withhold the get.
000646 -“Health,
Removing barriers to the women getting remarried namely giving her a get will have no bearing on the allocation of assets or custody. The women can still be sued in BD or secular court if she has received a get, a get would not even dissolve the civil marriage.”
Twisting your words doesn’t mean you have a new point -you keep repeating the same old -same old.
Listen if she wants to keep the Torah and use a Bais Din -Bais Din has the right to oversee all aspects of the divorce. If they decide to just issue a Get and tell them to fight the rest out in court is also fine. But they have the right to say we want to judge up the whole case, from begining to end, not just the Get.
Not only is this Not immoral, it’s probably the best way to do it. If anybody like you or the woman, don’t like this -they have the option of going to secular court. Noone is forced to go to Bais Din, they want to because they want to keep the Torah!
halacha does not allow a wife to demand a get-on-demand whenever she feels like it, with or without cause.
This refrain and others (whether true or not) is one that is constantly repeated by you on these boards. It gives you away every time. 🙂
The Wolf
Health,
To arbitrate something like custody Children it is very reasonable to only wish to do so in a system that has some sort of oversight and recourse if someone believes they are the victim of judicial misconduct. Not so with the writing of a get.
As far as forcing a women to arbitrate in a B”D if the only way she can receive a get is by arbitrating everything in a B”D if that is what the B”D wants – and they just about always do the women is in effect forced to arbitrate everything in B”D wether she wishes to or not
000646 -“Health, To arbitrate something like custody Children it is very reasonable to only wish to do so in a system that has some sort of oversight and recourse if someone believes they are the victim of judicial misconduct. Not so with the writing of a get.”
It might be reasonable to want this, but it’s not upto the individual’s choice. It’s upto the BD to decide if they will allow such a route.
“As far as forcing a women to arbitrate in a B”D if the only way she can receive a get is by arbitrating everything in a B”D if that is what the B”D wants – and they just about always do the women is in effect forced to arbitrate everything in B”D wether she wishes to or not”
Stop using the word force. If she Wants a Get -notice the word Want, then they have the right to give the Get acc. to their terms. If she has no interest in a Get -she definitely can go to secular court for any custody, financial issues that occur during a divorce. She isn’t forced to do anything!
Here is a sentence using the word “force”:
You can’t force the BD to issue a Get on her terms only. They have the right to determine the terms in which she can get a “GET”!
Health,
You said,
“It might be reasonable to want this, but it’s not upto the individual’s choice. It’s upto the BD to decide if they will allow such a route.”
Of course it’s up too the individual were they should Arbitrate Custody and Assets! Why should it be up too the B”D if she didn’t ask them?
You said,
“Here is a sentence using the word “force”:
You can’t force the BD to issue a Get on her terms only. They have the right to determine the terms in which she can get a “GET”! “
She is coming to the B”D to pay for a service they offer-namely supervising the writing of a Get. Using the fact that she happens to need this service is not an excuse for her to be forced to buy more services from the B”D namely the Arbitration of custody and Assets, in order to receive the necessary (for her) service of receiving a Get.
Health,
Let’s say someone has the only Mikvah on earth and he said he would not let any women use it unless they pay him an entrance fee to cover his costs AND they invest all of their money in his other businesses.
Would that be morally acceptable to you?
Would you expect a decent human being to act that way?
Would you consider him to be forcing the Jewish people to invest their money with him?
If no, how is this different?
Health you said,
“Stop using the word force. If she Wants a Get -notice the word Want, then they have the right to give the Get acc. to their terms. If she has no interest in a Get -she definitely can go to secular court for any custody, financial issues that occur during a divorce. She isn’t forced to do anything!”
That’s like putting a gun to someone’s head and saying: “If you want to live-notice I say the word want you should give me all of your money”, then claiming that you didn’t force the person to give you his money. I mean after all he could have chosen to die-right?
Health,
You said,
“It might be reasonable to want this, but it’s not upto the individual’s choice. It’s upto the BD to decide if they will allow such a route.”
Of course it’s up too the individual were they should Arbitrate Custody and Assets! Why should it be up too the B”D if she didn’t ask them?
You said,
“Here is a sentence using the word “force”:
You can’t force the BD to issue a Get on her terms only. They have the right to determine the terms in which she can get a “GET”! “
She is coming to the B”D to pay for a service they offer-namely supervising the writing of a Get. Using the fact that she happens to need this service is not an excuse for her to be forced to buy more services from the B”D namely the Arbitration of custody and Assets, in order to receive the necessary (for her) service of receiving a Get.
Considering the couple probably met for about 20 minutes prior to entering their arranged (forced)marriage, I don’t think there is any hope of detecting this sort of issue.
000646 -“Health,
Let’s say someone has the only Mikvah on earth and he said he would not let any women use it unless they pay him an entrance fee to cover his costs AND they invest all of their money in his other businesses.”
Look I’m not your shrink – so I ain’t getting any money from you -so I’m not interested in living in your dream world or living in your castle in the sky.
But even though there is absolutely no comparison -I’ll play along.
“Would that be morally acceptable to you?”
Why – is the guy who runs the Mik asking my opinion?
“Would you expect a decent human being to act that way?”
It depends on why he is the only one -obviously there must be a good reason why there is only one.
“Would you consider him to be forcing the Jewish people to invest their money with him?”
Absolutely NOT!!!!!!
000646 -“That’s like putting a gun to someone’s head and saying: “If you want to live-notice I say the word want you should give me all of your money”, then claiming that you didn’t force the person to give you his money. I mean after all he could have chosen to die-right?”
No, your example is a case of being forced.
B’D doesn’t force anybody to come to them. They come on their own free will!
O.K.
Please explain why my Moshol is not comparable. I think it’s the same exact thing.
Again,
If someone is coming to the B”D to pay for a service they offer-namely supervising the writing of a Get, Using the fact that they happen to need this service is not an excuse for it’s provider to insist that the people who NEED it (it is not a luxury) need to buy more services from the B”D. Namely the Arbitration of custody and Assets, in order to receive the necessary service of receiving a Get.
000646 -“Of course it’s up too the individual were they should Arbitrate Custody and Assets! Why should it be up too the B”D if she didn’t ask them?”
She did ask them. She asked them to divorce her from her husband.
“She is coming to the B”D to pay for a service they offer-namely supervising the writing of a Get. Using the fact that she happens to need this service is not an excuse for her to be forced to buy more services from the B”D namely the Arbitration of custody and Assets, in order to receive the necessary (for her) service of receiving a Get.”
That’s your mistake. These aren’t separate services. They are all part & parcel of the divorce.
You keep repeating the same thing. Either come up with a new point or don’t post at all.
There is no point in sounding like a broken record!!!!!!!!!!!
Health,
you said,
“B’D doesn’t force anybody to come to them. They come on their own free will!”
Right. They just say “If you ever want to be able to marry anyone else and have children that aren’t Mamzerim you have to arbitrate everything with us”.
you said,
“That’s your mistake. These aren’t separate services. They are all part & parcel of the divorce.”
You yourself admitted that if the B”D wants they could choose not to Arbitrate custody and assets, so of course they are separate services.
“She did ask them. She asked them to divorce her from her husband.”
No. She asked them to facilitate the writing of a Get and that only because they are the only ones who can possibly do this. The only place you can receive a Get is in B”D.
Batei Din will even say that if she somehow gets the goyishe courts to force the husband to give a Get that the Get is no good and no one can marry the women. So it isn’t true that she has an option to go somewhere else for a Get.
646 – why does she need BD altogether? Let her go directly to a Sofer and pay to write a Get.
Sushe,
You need a B”D to certify that everything was done correctly in order for her to be able to remarry
646 – why does she need BD altogether? Let her go directly to a Sofer and pay to write a Get.
The Husband has to give her to get, which he seems not to want to do without conditions.
She cant get a get on her own
000646 -“Please explain why my Moshol is not comparable. I think it’s the same exact thing.”
I know you do; that’s why I answered you step by step.
“Again,
If someone is coming to the B”D to pay for a service they offer-namely supervising the writing of a Get, Using the fact that they happen to need this service is not an excuse for it’s provider to insist that the people who NEED it (it is not a luxury) need to buy more services from the B”D. Namely the Arbitration of custody and Assets, in order to receive the necessary service of receiving a Get.”
Again -“That’s your mistake. These aren’t separate services. They are all part & parcel of the divorce.” She came Willingly to them to take care of her divorce!
000646 -“Right. They just say “If you ever want to be able to marry anyone else and have children that aren’t Mamzerim you have to arbitrate everything with us”.”
They only say that if she doesn’t want to listen to them.
It can’t be her way or the highway!
“You yourself admitted that if the B”D wants they could choose not to Arbitrate custody and assets, so of course they are separate services.”
That doesn’t make them separate. I said B’D has the right to separate them. They also have the right to Not separate them & keep it altogether.
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