New news story- OTD Lakewood woman with 4 kids wants custody

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  • #857280
    sushee
    Member

    No you don’t. All that’s needed is for a Sofer to write it, and for him to give it to her. It does not need to be certified by BD.

    What you mean is that you want BD to issue a Court Order against him to give it to her. BD doesn’t issue orders as a “service”.

    #857281
    Health
    Participant

    000646 -“No. She asked them to facilitate the writing of a Get and that only because they are the only ones who can possibly do this. The only place you can receive a Get is in B”D.”

    Yes, but like I said umpteen times already -asking for a Get is part of the divorce process. If she wants to separate the Get from the other part -it’s at the B’D’s discretion. They don’t have to separate the divorce process No matter how many times you say they do!

    “Batei Din will even say that if she somehow gets the goyishe courts to force the husband to give a Get that the Get is no good and no one can marry the women. So it isn’t true that she has an option to go somewhere else for a Get.”

    I never said she has an option to get a Get elsewhere. What I said was she has the option to go to secular court and get divorced. Noone is forcing her to go to Bais Din. She wants to go to B’D because she wants a Get. If she doesn’t want a Get she can go to secular court. What don’t you understand about this?

    I’m anxiously awaiting your next post of repeating the same point over & over & over, but with different wording!!!!

    #857282
    000646
    Participant

    Sushe,

    You need a Ptur from a B”D in order to remarry.

    Health,

    If you will not accept the fact that telling someone “either arbitrate with us or we will make it impossible for you to remarry, issue public notices calling you a zonah,and we will make your future children mamzerim” is forcing I guess I won’t be able to convince you that there is force involved here.

    I honestly do not understand your thought process though.

    #857283
    sushee
    Member

    A Ptur is not a Get. The Get can be done without a BD.

    #857284
    000646
    Participant

    Sushe,

    Another point,

    If the B”D agrees she has a right to demand a Get, they do not have the right to demand that the only way they will help her receive it (of course this help is a very expensive service- it is not free or even cheap) is if she buys their Arbitration services for custody and assets.

    Why is this so difficult for some to understand

    #857285
    sushee
    Member

    Well, that’s a big if, 646. If they deem that a right they’ll facilitate it. But in all likelihood they won’t deem that right unless she agrees to follow the halachic process for the entire process.

    #857286
    000646
    Participant

    Sushe,

    You said

    “A Ptur is not a Get. The Get can be done without a BD.”

    Yeah, and B”D will not give it to her unless her get was done in front of a recognized B”D.

    The point is simply that she cannot remarry without receiving a Get that is facilitated by a B”D.

    B”D offers at a premium cost the service of facilitating a Get.

    If somone wants to take advantage of this service, which happens to be their only choice if they ever want to get remarried they should not be forced to buy Arbitration services especially since when Arbitrating things like monetary issues and Custody of children it is very reasonable to want some oversight and recourse in case of Judicial misconduct.

    It’s really simple, I am not sure what some of you have a hard time understanding….

    #857287
    000646
    Participant

    Sushe,

    You said,

    “Well, that’s a big if, 646. If they deem that a right they’ll facilitate it. But in all likelihood they won’t deem that right unless she agrees to follow the halachic process for the entire process.”

    Ok so what you are saying is that the B”D will tell her knowing she cannot receive a get without them:

    “We will only decide you have a right to ask for a divorce if you agree to Arbitrate custody and assets with us.”

    Do you really do not see how that is forcing (or coercing if that word makes you feel better) her to agree?

    If she is entitled to a divorce it has nothing to do with were she will arbitrate custody etc.!

    I am not sure what part of this I am not being clear about..

    #857289
    Teewhy143
    Member

    Also, whatever happened to halacha. It’s seems that many of you/us are worried about morals instead of halacha. In fact, it’s halacha that tells us what morals are considered such.

    #857290
    isaac1554
    Member

    I am sorry to say I know of numorous cases where people have had affairs and no one cares. So let us not judge anyone. Rabbi’s dont care to get involved for it is not an easy subject. The brush it under the carpet. As long as they are happy. What happened to our Rabbi’s of yester year. where before they marry two people they check to see if all is ok. So dont judge this woman. So she is not Chasidish. Just because she is a model doesnt mean she wont keep shabbus, or kosher.

    #857291
    dash™
    Participant

    There are specific requirements for custody arbitration to be legally binding. This is from Fawzy v. Fawzy:

    Finally, the Court addressed the process by which parents can bind themselves to arbitration over a child custody dispute. The Court emphasized the importance of ensuring that parents understand their rights and the ramifications of their decision before they agree to arbitrate. The Court thus required there be an agreement in writing or otherwise recorded that clearly establishes the parties 1) understand they have a right to a judicial determination of their dispute and knowingly agree to waive that right; 2) understand and accept the limited circumstances in which they can challenge the award; 3) have had enough time to fully consider the consequences of their decision to arbitrate; and 4) have entered the agreement voluntarily.

    If a Beis Din stated that they wouldn’t preside over a Get unless she agreed to custody arbitration, than such an arbitration can be challenged.

    #857292
    000646
    Participant

    Dash,

    That is really good to know and people going through a Divorce should be aware of it. I also believe that in the case the OP of this thread was referring to, the women’s defense is based along these lines.

    The only problem is that the Batei Din will use literally anything they can get their hands on to intimidate and stop someone from taking such action, the pressure and intimidation a B”D (or the individual Dayanim) is capable of bringing on someone in the Frum community can be very painful.

    It is the same with monetary issues. Even if legally you have grounds to have the B”D award vacated in secular court due to Judicial misconduct etc. a B”D (or the individual Dayanim who sat on the case) will use all sorts intimidation tactics ( including threatening to harm the person’s children socially by removing them from school etc. etc.) to force the person to stop such action.

    #857293
    Health
    Participant

    000646 -“Health,

    If you will not accept the fact that telling someone “either arbitrate with us or we will make it impossible for you to remarry, issue public notices calling you a zonah,and we will make your future children mamzerim” is forcing I guess I won’t be able to convince you that there is force involved here.”

    And I honestly don’t understand the way you think. They aren’t forcing the Get. If she wants to be religious, she asks B’D willingly to get her a Get. If she doesn’t care about the Get -she can get divorced in civil court. The fact that once she asks for a Get that they have the right to oversee the whole divorce process isn’t called forcing.

    It just seems to be that you don’t believe B’D should have any power. You think that if s/o shows up and asks for a Get that they (B’D) have no right to demand that in order for them to give it – they will do all aspects of the divorce. You think when this woman tells the B’D jump (Or get me a Get), they should say “How high?”. Sorry, go learn what a B’D is meant for. They aren’t your Shick Yingle (Message boy)!

    Why don’t you try this in civil court -tell the Judge he can only judge up about the divorce and not the custody or money aspects of the divorce or vice -versa -only the custody & money aspects but he can’t divorce you? Let see what the Judge says? I’ll give you three guesses. Last year NY removed themselves from requiring a fault only divorce. This means no where in this country do you need both parties to agree to divorce. If one party wants a divorce -they get it.

    How come you aren’t screaming -“Immoral -they have No right to force you.”?

    #857294
    The little I know
    Participant

    646:

    You clearly have an agenda here, and you are invested in it at the emotional level. The fact that you are propagating mostly fictional ideas is not in your favor. Youy only want to portray batei din as extortionists. I have been working with many rabbonim and batei din for many years. There is much to be said for the shortcomings of our “system”. But it does not come anywhere close to the sensational gibberish you are trying to sell here.

    I have encountered two “batei din” that are standing ones (as opposed to zabl”a arrangements) that are a disgrace to Klal Yisroel. One has actually engaged in the type of extortion you describe, and it does this as a policy. Men who are struggling to get agreements from their wives, either wanting more than is due or finding the women overly demanding, know to go there for their get. Many other rabbonim and batei din refuse to recognize this beis din in any matters of ishus. The other regularly paskens without any input from one side (baal din), and are thus flagrantly in violation of the basics of halacha.

    Yes, there is corruption. Yes, there are dishonest and evil rabbonim. You are correct – our system is flawed. But your steady stream of accusations, generalizing to the entire system, claiming that every beis din engages in extortion is not funny or even true. Please take your baseless dissatisfaction with Torah and Yiddishkeit elsewhere. It is offending to keep reading this stuff on this website. You should be ashamhed of yourself.

    Instead of spending your time writing your false accusations, you could invest some time in trying to repair and improve what we have. Try it. You’ll be surprised that progress is possible. I, for one, resent the kefira in your comments, lumping all talmidei chachomim into your perceptions of evil. Our rabbonim are all we have. Work with them, not against them.

    #857295
    000646
    Participant

    Health,

    You said

    “The fact that once she asks for a Get that they have the right to oversee the whole divorce process isn’t called forcing.”

    Please explain why you say this being that she needs the Get.

    You said,

    “Why don’t you try this in civil court -tell the Judge he can only judge up about the divorce and not the custody or money aspects of the divorce “

    Actually a Judge would say fine, go submit to Binding Arbitration for custody and assets if you want. In fact that is what happens in most Frum Divorces.

    You said,

    ” Last year NY removed themselves from requiring a fault only divorce. This means no where in this country do you need both parties to agree to divorce. If one party wants a divorce -they get it.”

    Who here is being forced? why should any partner in a marriage be have to stay married if they no longer wish to?

    #857296
    000646
    Participant

    The little I know,

    I am sorry you are offended.

    Everything I said is fact. You know it, I know it, and anyone who has been through this system knows it.

    I know that our Rabbonim are all we have and that is why it is so disillusioning when they refuse to publicly do anything about the disgrace that is the current B”D system, among other problems.

    Should I name the Rabbonim I have personally seen threaten to harm children over business matters of their parents, or to get people to do something they feel is correct??

    I could give case studies from respected Batei Din to back up every assertion I made…. (although anyone who has real knowledge of the system knows it is true…)

    I could you know.. it’s only residual feelings of respect that stops me.

    That being said I honestly have no wish to offend anyone and if the truth is to disgusting for some of you to bear I can fully understand that. In fact that’s how I felt for many years as well.

    #857297
    hershi
    Member

    The little I Know,

    Well stated and 100% Emes.

    #857299
    Health
    Participant

    000646 -“Please explain why you say this being that she needs the Get.”

    She needs a Get acc. to the Torah, but noone is forcing her to keep the Torah. If she wants to keep the Torah and get a Get, she has to do it on the B’D terms. They have the choice when s/o asks them to help with a Get to oversee the whole divorce process.

    Why can’t you understand such a simple idea? While you might have a few Bottei Dinim that are corrupt, by & large most who do this -aren’t!

    “Actually a Judge would say fine, go submit to Binding Arbitration for custody and assets if you want. In fact that is what happens in most Frum Divorces.”

    When’s the last time you were in court? They will never tell you go for arbitration that’s not under their auspices. If you bring an arbitration agreement by yourself -more than likely they will accept it. Again you are living in your own little dream world -just to put down Bottei Dinim.

    “Who here is being forced? why should any partner in a marriage be have to stay married if they no longer wish to?”

    You answered your own question because of why they got rid of “fault only” divorce. Yes, noone should have to stay in a marriage they don’t want -hence the legislation. But the fact remains if one doesn’t want to get divorced -they will be forced by the court to get divorced.

    Acc. to your train of thought that one party should never be forced to do anything when it comes to divorce and it’s immoral -where is your outcry on this law???? And don’t tell me B’D forcing the woman who asked for Get is different because we are talking about $ & custody; because the one party is also being forced to talk about $ & custody, even though he/she doesn’t want to get divorced.

    #857300
    000646
    Participant

    Health,

    The point here is simple.

    I believe that using the fact that you can refuse to sell a service that someone else needs (facilitating a get), in order to get them to buy additional services from you (arbitration of custody etc.), is wrong. Especially if the person is willing to pay you well for the service they are asking for. You disagree. Again if you don’t see how this is wrong I really cannot explain it to you any clearer!

    You said,

    “When’s the last time you were in court? They will never tell you go for arbitration that’s not under their auspices.”

    I never said they would! If you show them that you both want to Arbitrate and ask to do so they will say fine!

    You said,

    “But the fact remains if one doesn’t want to get divorced -they will be forced by the court to get divorced.

    Acc. to your train of thought that one party should never be forced to do anything when it comes to divorce and it’s immoral -where is your outcry on this law???? And don’t tell me B’D forcing the woman who asked for Get is different because we are talking about $ & custody; because the one party is also being forced to talk about $ & custody, even though he/she doesn’t want to get divorced.”

    If that’s what you think I am saying I must not have been clear. I apologize, and please allow me to explain.

    I do not have a problem forcing someone to talk about custody or assets the same way I don’t have a problem with anyone suing someone else for money that they believe is theirs and forcing them to talk about it.

    I have a problem with using the fact that someone in your community needs a service that only you offer, to coerce them into buying more services from you. Especially when the service you are coercing them to buy does not have everything any reasonable person would expect for that service (i.e oversight, right to appeal etc.)

    That being said we are going in circles here and apparently I am offending everyone. Maybe we can agree to disagree…. and I just pray you never have to go through this system?

    #857301
    The little I know
    Participant

    Something simple is being missed, and I’m surprised because it is like the broad side of the barn.

    The get is supposed to be the final severing of the relationship. The affairs of financial, custody and visitation, and division of assets should already be in place by the time of the get. Halacha does not specifically demand this. But it is required for both logical reasons (the spirit of the law) and for obvious practical reasons. Where that process takes place is irrelevant to the court and to beis din. There is nothing about negotiating a business deal that requires it to be done by rabbonim versus goyim. The option of litigating the settlement issues is frowned upon, as it encroaches on the issur of arkao’s, and it is ridiculously expensive. It is also bitter and painful. Even family court prefers that these issues be settled out of court, and this means anywhere but the courtroom. There is nothing wrong with having attorneys doing this, though it is likely to be costly.

    Neither court nor beis din routinely press to keep these affairs under their jurisdiction. Courts will always review the settlements, since they are bent on insuring that the children’s needs are met. If the agreement is unfair to the children, the court may disqualify it, even if both parties signed, and even if beis din agreed.

    So beis din is not “forcing” the agreement to be through them. Generally they don’t care. Either party can easily insist that these issues be decided by the beis din, and I have personally observed many such situations, where the war between the spouses is taken to the forum of the beis din. This was the choice by the litigants (one or both), not the dayanim. As an exception, I am aware of at least one beis din that truly extorts. I will not enter the lashon horah realm here, but this one makes corruption child’s play. They typically overrule any other agreement, insisting that everything be renegotiated through them, and they take one side. Klal Yisroel would be better off without these wicked people who use their status of “dayanim” to violate every halachic and moral rule known. This is an exception. Most dayanim do not want to donate the time for the negotiation stuff.

    #857302
    000646
    Participant

    The little i know,

    I must admit it is a pleasure to deal with someone who at least admits that a B”D extorting someone who comes to them to facilitate a get to submit to arbitration for custody and assets is wrong.

    I guess your expereince with Batei Din has been diffrent then mine…

    In your mind though, if Rabbonim agree with you that this extortion is wrong why isn’t there public notices signed by them naming and warning people not to sign Shtarei Berurin with Batei Din and Dayanim that do this?

    The pain inflicted by such Batei Din and Dayanim is enormous not to mention a Chilul Hashem

    Isn’t it more of a danger to the public then many other things they issue public proclomations about?

    #857303
    musser zoger
    Participant

    The little I know

    I agree with you 100% on everything you stated. Couldn’t have said it better myself.

    #857304
    Health
    Participant

    000646 -“Health, The point here is simple.

    I believe that using the fact that you can refuse to sell a service that someone else needs (facilitating a get), in order to get them to buy additional services from you (arbitration of custody etc.), is wrong. Especially if the person is willing to pay you well for the service they are asking for. You disagree. Again if you don’t see how this is wrong I really cannot explain it to you any clearer!”

    Here we go again & again. For the millionth time -It’s not a separate service. It’s all part of the divorce process.

    “I have a problem with using the fact that someone in your community needs a service that only you offer, to coerce them into buying more services from you. Especially when the service you are coercing them to buy does not have everything any reasonable person would expect for that service (i.e oversight, right to appeal etc.)”

    For the millionth & one time – they aren’t two separate services!

    “That being said we are going in circles here and apparently I am offending everyone. Maybe we can agree to disagree….”

    Oh, I agree with you. A lot of Bottei Dinim are corrupt. Stop focusing on a Naarishkeit (a little thing). Rant about real Rishous. And even more secular courts are corrupt. But one day all these Judges (Yid & Goy) will be in the final Judgment. Then all their victims will have a permanent revenge.

    “and I just pray you never have to go through this system?”

    Well maybe the next marriage. The last one ended in divorce.

    #857305
    000646
    Participant

    Health,

    O.K.

    I believe that Facilitating a Get and Binding custody and asset arbitration are separate services, you do not. I won’t convince you and you will not convince me.

    That being said, I am truly sorry for insinuating that you didn’t go through a system that you apparently did go through, I should not have made assumptions about you. That was arrogant of me, and I apologize.

    I know what I know from my and my friends personal experiences with Batei Din. Maybe I am unlucky and it just happens that I only get to see the “problem” Batei din or maybe you are lucky and got to deal with a good one.

    I do however feel very strongly that using the threat of not Facilitating a Get unless someone submits to Binding custody and asset arbitration in a system with no oversight or recourse for those who are wronged, is very very immoral and a disgrace.

    Let’s just agree to disagree. I do believe it or not really hate offending people’s sensibilities.

    As an aside (and feel free to tell me it is non of my business) was there Children involved in your situation?

    #857306
    000646
    Participant

    I also find it interesting that I am arguing with two people in this thread; one who says they do not see a moral issue with a B”D demanding that the parties submit to binding arbitration on custody and Assets in order to recieve a get (“Health”) and one who says that Batei Din do not typically make this demand (“the little i know”).

    I am not sure what this indicates but it is intresting.

    #857307
    000646
    Participant

    For the record I sent the text below in an e-mail to B”D Maysharim of Lakewood (although I know what they do I just wanted to get it in writing for this thread):

    “Does the B”D typically request that the parties submit to arbitration for custody and assets by the Dayanim on the B”D before facilitating a Get?”

    They answered

    “Typically, but it’s up to the Dayanim’s determination based on the specific variables.”

    Make of it what you will.

    I will send out this question to other Batei Din as well although I can predict with near certainty that their response will be the same.

    #857309
    Health
    Participant

    000646 -“As an aside (and feel free to tell me it is non of my business) was there Children involved in your situation?”

    I do have kids, but I don’t want to discuss my arrangements.

    I’d like to ask you something -Is it safe to assume you are a divorced male and have kids? Can I also assume you’re not happy with your arrangments and you tried to appeal this to civil court and you lost due to binding arbitration? If yes, what makes you think you would have gotten a better deal in civil court?

    Your point of that B’D is a “system with no oversight or recourse for those who are wronged,”, might be true; but it’s basically the same in civil court. It’s almost impossible to win on appeal even if you are wronged in the original court. I don’t know how much you know about law, esp. in the family arena, but for an appeal to be successful you need either the Judge broke some law or a change of circumstance. Barring these two reasons, even if you were given a raw deal, your case will Not be overturned, no matter how high you appeal it.

    #857310
    000646
    Participant

    Health,

    I am B”H happily married to an awesome woman! I have friends who are divorced that were hurt by Batei Din and I have lost money to and been threatened by unscrupulous Dayanim.

    You said,

    “I don’t know how much you know about law, esp. in the family arena, but for an appeal to be successful you need either the Judge broke some law or a change of circumstance.”

    There is a Law that can be broken in secular court. Not so in a B”D. When you sign that Shtar Berurin you literally give the Dayanim the right to do whatever they want. They do not even have to explain their decision to anyone! It is crazy to expect-let alone demand-that people give anyone that right when it comes to anything of theirs,let alone children.

    Now In the event that you have proof of Judicial misconduct from a B”D and move to have the Award vacated in secular court, you will get threatened, your children get threatened, rumors will be spread about you and the B”D will do whatever they possibly can to stop you. This I have experienced.

    #857311
    squeak
    Participant

    Awesome, as in you are afraid of her? Let us help you.

    #857313
    Health
    Participant

    000646 -“I am B”H happily married to an awesome woman! I have friends who are divorced that were hurt by Batei Din and I have lost money to and been threatened by unscrupulous Dayanim.”

    Don’t paint the whole system with one brush. There are good and bad in the Jewish system, not mostly bad.

    “There is a Law that can be broken in secular court. Not so in a B”D. When you sign that Shtar Berurin you literally give the Dayanim the right to do whatever they want. They do not even have to explain their decision to anyone! It is crazy to expect-let alone demand-that people give anyone that right when it comes to anything of theirs,let alone children.”

    You missed my point. It’s almost impossible to have a lower court ruling overturned in civil (appeals) court. So if you get a raw deal in B’D -the same can occur in civil court. One system is not more Just than the other! Focus on improving both systems, not just ranting.

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