February 21, 2012 1:23 am at 1:23 am #602142
This mother of 4 is looking to be a model. She no longer wants to be Chassidish, or frum at all. Parents are siding with ex-husband.
How can this be prevented?
Is there a way to determine before marriage who is likely to go OTD after marriage, so that kids will be saved the agony?February 21, 2012 2:18 am at 2:18 am #857120OneOfManyParticipant
Is there a way to determine before marriage who is likely to go OTD after marriage
Not for human beings, I would think.February 21, 2012 2:28 am at 2:28 am #857121
This isn’t preventable because e/o has Bechira and a Yetzer Hora!
Usually though people with good upbringing -it doesn’t happen to!February 21, 2012 2:41 am at 2:41 am #857122
She is still religious, she is just not Chassidic or Yeshivish
She is sending her kids to religious schools
The issue seems to be that she was wearing pants in front of the kidsFebruary 21, 2012 2:55 am at 2:55 am #857123MaidofCHParticipant
The way she was dressed in the NY POST, and the fact she wants to go into modeling & acting, sounds like the issue isn’t just pants. And she strikes me as confused about her relationship to Judaism, like that “Unorthodox” girl who left Satmar.
Behold the latest media trend: “Frustrated Chassidic Women.” The POST seems to be capitalizing on it.February 21, 2012 2:59 am at 2:59 am #857124writersoulMember
Medium Size Shadchan: Um, no. You can’t. We’re not some dystopian society where they can determine your entire future and bind you to it.
First of all, there’s no criteria.
Second of all, let’s say you have a pre-marriage standardized test or something. So if you fail you can’t marry a frum guy? You can’t have frum kids? You can’t even try to rise above?
Are you PUSHING them off the derech or are they going on their own?
And besides, as mentioned above, what about bechirah and the power to change?
I’m sorry if I sound harsh, I’m just shocked at the question.February 21, 2012 3:26 am at 3:26 am #857125TheGoqParticipant
This is really none of your business.February 21, 2012 3:33 am at 3:33 am #857127BSDMember
The problem is we are all too busy with everyone else’s life. Mind your own business and you will be better off, and so will everyone around you. YENTAHS!February 21, 2012 3:39 am at 3:39 am #857128cb1Member
This is really none of your business.
Agreed %100February 21, 2012 3:39 am at 3:39 am #857129LogicianParticipant
As usual, we end up not debating an issue based on a given set of circumstances, but debating what actually occurred in a specific case. WHO CARES?February 21, 2012 3:51 am at 3:51 am #857130DoswinMember
She made it the publics business with her posing for the media.February 21, 2012 3:53 am at 3:53 am #857131doodle jumpParticipant
Do you know the lady ? Her children? Her story? I am sure you will answer “NO” to all of these questions. Lay off. Let her and her Ex deal with the situation. Not of our business.
I wish them much Hatzlacha in this nisayon.February 21, 2012 4:07 am at 4:07 am #857132dash™Participant
Why are women who go OTD automatically labeled as “promiscuous”?February 21, 2012 4:20 am at 4:20 am #857133
I sense shock and distaste for the question I asked.
Forgive me. Possibly Im not as smart as all of you who are shocked. Only Hashem knows if this question should be considered shocking.
Ch”v had this happened in your family, wouldnt you second guess and say “Perhaps I should have seen this coming because…..”.
Are you all 100% sure that a Gadol wouldnt be able to determine a pattern in OTD people and thereby prevent much heartache for the spouse and whatever children are born from a marriage where one decides to go OTD.
Lets not be VIZE GUYS. Maybe there is a way to determine the likelihood, and lessen heartache!
Would less heartache be so terrible?February 21, 2012 4:23 am at 4:23 am #857134smartgalMember
Very sad. another chillul Hashem in the papers 1 wk after the deb feldman fiasco …sounds like this pearlperry woman is trying to get media attention bec shes losing the custody battle for her kids in court. Apparently , she was found to be unstable (bipolar mayb?) to get custody..
Without knowing the facts, you still havta ask yourself what type of mother she will be for her children, when this woman is pursuing a modeling career and sharing her inappropriate pictures and language with the papers and fb world…doesnt sound like a good role model to me….religious or not…February 21, 2012 4:55 am at 4:55 am #857135apushatayidParticipant
Off whose derech?February 21, 2012 4:58 am at 4:58 am #857136essy8Member
based on the OP’s screen name, i don’t think she/he was trying to be a yentah, etc. It seems that as a shadchan s/he was wondering out loud if there are signs or whatnot to look out for while dating.
keeping far away from the topic of this particular couple, i can only imagine the pain of either a terrible marriage that causes one spouse to go off, or the terrible pain of a marriage that breaks up because one spouse no longer wants to be frum.February 21, 2012 5:46 am at 5:46 am #857137
Off whose derech?
T-Tatta in Himmel’s
You didnt know?
Were not talking Chassidish/Litvish here. We’re talking not keeping Shabbos, Kosher, out of view of the kids.
No one can x-ray anyone’s heart or mind and know anyone’s deepest feelings. BUT when you get married and commit to living a Torah life, you gotta do what you gotta do, or suffer consequences.February 21, 2012 5:50 am at 5:50 am #857138soliekMember
“Forgive me. Possibly Im not as smart as all of you who are shocked. Only Hashem knows if this question should be considered shocking.”
everyone has bechira and a chezkas kashrus, therefore discriminating against people who may or may not go off the derech is wrong and disgusting. we all may go off the derech. yochanan kohen gadol became a tzeduki after 80 of service.February 21, 2012 5:55 am at 5:55 am #857139Dave HirschParticipant
The Derech which forbids an Eishes Ish from having relations (source: Facebook post).
The Derech which declares: “Lo Tiyeh Kdeisha B’Bnos Yisroel.”
The Derech that follows the “Old Testament” in which it is written “Lo Techaten Bom…” (granted, she was only in a three month relationship).
I’m not deciding the custody battle (I don’t know the facts), but what is clear is the fact that she is NOT leading a religious lifestyle (she’s sending the children to religious institution per arbitrated agreement).
We must, however, examine the problems within our community (and this includes all of us: Hasidic, Yeshivish, MO and Sephardic — we all experience it) and acknowledge the reasons for this migration. I, for one, believe that the schools must place a bigger emphasis on Hashkafa and Emunah.February 21, 2012 11:43 am at 11:43 am #857140besalelParticipant
People’s knee jerk reaction reminds me of the mattisyahu deal. Hey just because someone is no longer chassidish doesn’t mean they are no longer frum. In some cases it could be they leave the rote of non thinking robot behavior and find a true kesher to hakadosh baruch hu.
As for the original question: perhaps if you see a young beautiful 18 hear old being arranged in marriage to an abusive man with the face of a horse you can safely predict this may not go so well in a few years.February 21, 2012 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #857141Menachem MelamedParticipant
If you can help any of the people involved, please do so.
If you can help Klal Yisroel – please do so.
If you are a Yenta – find something constructive to do with you social abilities.February 21, 2012 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #857142
Smart Gal You Said:
“sounds like this pearlperry woman is trying to get media attention bec shes losing the custody battle for her kids in court. Apparently , she was found to be unstable (bipolar mayb?) to get custody..”
This is not true. The reason she may lose in secular court is because she agreed (under threat of not receiving a Get) to Arbitrate custody in a B”D. Once you sign an arbitration agreement the secular courts will generally uphold anything the “Arbitrator” (in this case B”D awards. The B”D awarded her custody ONLY if she stays within certain guidelines of frumkeit.
And that’s were the problem is. If she had not signed an Arbitration agreement there would be no question that she would get custody.February 21, 2012 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #857143mddMember
If a Yid does aveiros, it is Klal Yisroel’s business!!!February 21, 2012 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #857144mamashtakahMember
Without knowing the facts, you still havta ask yourself . . .
Without knowing the facts, the only thing you have to do is worry about yourself. This discussion is the worst example of lashon hara.
Are any of you so perfect that you really have the time to worry about people who don’t know you, and don’t care what you think?
Mind your own business, people!February 21, 2012 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #857146
There are professional people (social workers) who speak to both guy and girl before the engagement and offer their opinion on the likelihood of success of this union. Theres one in Far Rockaway who comes to mind.
Again, dont be VIZE GUYS. Maybe there is a way to determine the likelihood, and lessen heartache!
Would less heartache be so terrible? Im sure the innocent kids whose lives are torn apart would approve.February 21, 2012 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #857147NaysbergMember
She is chayiv misa for having relations outside marriage.February 21, 2012 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #857148BTGuyParticipant
Not sure how to solve this problem. For the most part, unless the mother is certifiably insane or in a prison for a felony, etc., the mother gets the kids.
The only thing I can contribute is if the father and in-laws state such a drastic change in upbringing does present a problem, and then hope the judge will agree so the children can at least be more, than less involved with mitzvos.
Hatzalacha to this family and hoping the mother comes to her senses are at least has rachmonus on her children.February 21, 2012 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #857149gavra_at_workParticipant
As for the original question: perhaps if you see a young beautiful 18 hear old being arranged in marriage to an abusive man with the face of a horse you can safely predict this may not go so well in a few years.
It’s not the girl or boy that goes OTD, it’s the failure of the relationship (in many cases, and seems to be true here as well).February 21, 2012 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #857150yichusdikParticipant
I suppose, based on a previous conversation last week in the coffee room (compulsion to do mitzvos by b’d), that there will be a line of self righteous individuals who are prepared to beat her until she agrees to doing mitzvos as they see it.
That ought to get her back on the derech. Perfectly sound reasoning. And hey, once she is back on the derech, she will pass on a love and appreciation for Torah and for her community to her four kids, without a doubt.February 21, 2012 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #857151cherrybimParticipant
“If a Yid does aveiros, it is Klal Yisroel’s business!!!”
It is Klal Yisroel’s business to improve itself and to do t’shuva; that’s it. Leave the rest to our Rabbonim; that’s why we have them.February 21, 2012 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #857152smartcookieMember
Zahavasdad- the pics I saw of her and her BF, prove everything against pure Halacha. I’m not sure which religion you’re referring to, but she definitely doesn’t practice my religion.February 21, 2012 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #857153TheGoqParticipant
Mod’s i beseech you to please close this thread.February 21, 2012 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #857154
A man who refuses to give his wife a Get or uses it as a weapon definatly doesnt practice my religionFebruary 21, 2012 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #857156
yichusdik: once she is back on the derech, she will pass on a love and appreciation for Torah and for her community to her four kids, without a doubt.
Despite your sarcasm, you are 100% right!
Which is the #1 reason to do as much as we can to prevent such a marriage in the first place.
I doubt she went OTD because of her failed marriage. Among all frum people who divorce, very few go OTD. There must have been some seed of doubt all along. Thats what a professional might help determine (differences in commitment to religion when dating). Had they both gone OTD together (rare) the kids would not be ripped apart.February 21, 2012 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #857157tahiniMember
Is it not wrong to discuss the trauma of someone’s divorce in such insulting terms?
We should worry about ourselves and how we are, not how we appear in our goldfish bowls. The phrase OTD is thrown around all over the place, usually by people who are worried not so much for the neshamas of our kehilla but by the need to conform and keep up appearances. For young couples to be happy and build a jewish home, perhaps a little less indepth family research and questioning and a more communication, discussion and exchange of ideas between the couple??? It is cruel to introduce young naive boys and girls to each other with parents in the background so actively seeking yichus and status for their families. You want successful shidduchim? Do the couple laugh naturally together, are they attracted to one another, ( the girl as well as the boy!!!!!)
It is natural for a parent to want their children happy, but happiness means caring for your child, not your status in your community!! A couple need to have a natural chemistry to get along, recognised since time began, our Torah talks of love and mutual respect between our forefathers and foremothers.February 21, 2012 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #857159gavra_at_workParticipant
I doubt she went OTD because of her failed marriage.
But a sucessful one would have prevented it. It also seems he is not innocent (as he is on Facebook!, which no Chossid would be on).February 21, 2012 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #857160Guter yidParticipant
Going off the derech was unfortunately all the years, it just affecting us in “real time” when it hits home, when you know the boy or girl that nebech got lost to his/her temptations and uncontrollable lusts.
I have a friend, he was leading a beautiful life, 2 kids, special wife, [not too frum, well dressed and “taken care” etc.], and he was simply carried away by Facebook, when he gave the get he couldn’t stop crying, he knew he didn’t want this to happen, he cried for the happy and full life he’s giving up, but he was like a detainee in his own prison.February 21, 2012 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #857161
“A man who refuses to give his wife a Get or uses it as a weapon definatly doesnt practice my religion”
You have not defined what your religion is, and many of your posts leave that fact unanswerable.February 21, 2012 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #857162smartcookieMember
Zahavasdad- of course that’s bad too. Just doesn’t make her actions right.
(If that’s the case with him, I don’t know.but her pics I saw as definite proof.)February 21, 2012 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #857163yichusdikParticipant
I don’t know this woman, or the ubiquitous Deborah Feldman, or anyone else in the news for going off the derech. I have said that I find Feldman’s leverage of her upbringing and bad experiences to be wrong on a number of levels, and this individual may simply be leveraging the media to get something that she couldn’t get in court or beis din. I don’t know. But I do know this. There is an elephant in the room, and few people are willing to talk about it. That is the following: None of us is perfect. I am not, you are not, our communities are not, and, even though they are on a (much) higher madrega, neither are our leaders. There are problems and challenges in our communities we need to fix, and it shouldn’t take publicity to maneuver us into fixing them. Not every mechanech does a good job. Not every shul or shteeble is welcoming or warm. Not every frum businessperson makes a kiddush hashem. Instead of wasting our time giving a geshrai over what I agree can be at the very least misleading and incomplete pictures of chareidi life, if not outright falsehoods, let’s do the necessary introspection on how our community can improve its capacity to inspire Jews rather than provoke them into turning away, beyond lengthening our skirts and sleeves, or looking down when we see a woman, which, while they may be admirable endeavors for some, do nothing to address the problems that bleed away our young people.February 21, 2012 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #857164apushatayidParticipant
If you were one of the 4 children in this case. Would you want it dissected and analyzed by a bunch of yentas in an online blog? Keep this in mind before posting another comment.February 21, 2012 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #857165
Medium Size Shadchan -“There are professional people (social workers) who speak to both guy and girl before the engagement and offer their opinion on the likelihood of success of this union. Theres one in Far Rockaway who comes to mind.”
Even if there is merit to this program, which I highly doubt because it takes many, many sessions for any therapist to get to know their clients; how could a therapist possibly know who is going to go OTD or not? Ya know e/o nowadays wants to live in utopia, but the truth is – this world wasn’t meant to have everything given to them on a silver platter. Marriage is not meant to be perfect. I know first hand that a lot of these marriages of people going OTD is because they didn’t get the professional help they needed. Either people mixed in or they didn’t go to good therapists. If you want to stem this tide -start pushing people to go for therapy if marital problems arise. We have to stop this attitude of stigmatizing therapy. We also have to ostracize family or friends that give any advice besides telling them to go seek counselling, either by a Rov with Sholom Bayis experience (not any Rov), or by mental help professionals!February 21, 2012 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #857166
Here is a Hypothetical story that very well may happen:
In the year 2025 a young woman or man will write a memoir about how he was prevented from assciating with his mother becasue she did not wish to remain religious. The memoir will mention how the child’s mother was forced to Arbitrate custody in a Rabbincal court-even though she did not wish to under threat of never receiving a Get.
There will be newspaper articles about it. The young Author will make their rounds on T.V shows and the world will all ridicule the Frum Community.
Evreyone will call the author a Lier and a fraud on frum message boards while admitting on those same public forums they never read their book and make themselves and their community look even stupider.
Evreyone will be asking how did this happen? Were did we go wrong? Why are our children dissillusioned with our way of life?
Why o why do they not want to follow the rabbonim and trust the frum leadership any longer?
Hmm I wonder whyFebruary 21, 2012 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #857167
yichusdik: let’s do the necessary introspection on how our community can improve its capacity to inspire Jews rather than provoke them into turning away, beyond lengthening our skirts …
I agree 100%. You absolutely have your finger on the pulse!
Perhaps you can start by listing what changes you are going to make and then listing changes others can.February 21, 2012 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #857168
If it being disected on a blog concerned her, she would not have run to the New York Prust. Comments on a blog are mild compared to being headlined in the New York Prust.February 21, 2012 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #857169
Or much more likely, we will read a memoir from a child whose custody was granted to a mother who became irreligious and became part of the modeling culture which disrepects women to utmost degree, only looking at them as sex objects. The child grows up with such a woebegotten image of self worth and falls to using drugs and abusing their body in the most unnatural ways (loshon nekiyah).
Lot more likely scenario than yours. Because you think nothing should be done about it.February 21, 2012 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #857170
646 -How about in a few years from now -some young adult writes how the gov. in this country took them away from their religion by forcing them to live with a parent whom is a Non-orthodox Jew?
In spite that a lot of courts, in the US, have insisted that kids have to keep the religion that they were brought up with, the liberal courts in NY & NJ can’t seem to practice this!February 21, 2012 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #857171
Her husband has not given her a Get for 5 yearsFebruary 21, 2012 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #857172
They are fighting for JOINT CUSTODY the father dosnt want the mother to have any custody. The mother is not asking for exclusive custody.
If you really do not insitinctevly see the moral issue with taking away a mother’s rights to see her children because you do not agree with her lifestyle there is really nothing I could say to you.
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