September 14, 2011 12:34 am at 12:34 am #599363FIXTHEWORLDMember
Recently I have noticed the increase of inappropriately dressed elderly woman walking around Ramat Beit Shemesh. These “BUBBIES” call themselves frum yet walk around like non-jewish high school girls. Growing up, as a child of Baal teshuvas I feel my parents have trained me to overcome any obstacle. However this is enough! I am in my mid 30s with 8 kids and just can’t overcome this! I never thought after living in Eretz Yisroel Hakadosh from the age of 8 that this would happen. I don’t remember much of living in baltimore but I can’t imagine it being like nowadays here in Eretz Yisroel. I feel like calling Rabbi Paysach Krohn to guide me but I feel that the only solution is guiding these “frum women”
FIXTHEWORLDSeptember 14, 2011 2:19 am at 2:19 am #1200167minyan galMember
Much as you would love to fix the world, you can only fix your own household. You cannot dictate how others choose to dress much as you would love to. I am not familiar with the area that you are speaking of and so I don’t know if this is a mixed or frum area. It is a free world and people can and will dress as they please.September 14, 2011 3:06 am at 3:06 am #1200171GumBallMember
people can and will dress as they please.
People cant really dress as they please…U need 2 follow hilchos Tznius and not necessarily does everyone follow the halachos…Its really hard i can say 4 myself (not tht im not tznius i am B”h) but Its SO hard 2 make sure ur tznius….and sometimes ppl dont realize…:(September 14, 2011 5:29 am at 5:29 am #1200176amichaiParticipant
when you say elderly, are you saying mid 50’s, mid 60’s? just curious. how are they dressing that is really upsetting you? as stated above, you can’t fix the world.September 14, 2011 11:01 am at 11:01 am #1200179YjnebMember
To quote J Rosenblum: While in Kiryat Sanz, I noticed one or two women in decidedly non-Chassidic dress walking through the neighborhood. No one paid them any attention. Just to make sure that my powers of observation are not waning, I called a doctor friend who lives in the neighborhood, and he told me a story of rabbi who once spent his summer vacation in Kiryat Sanz. After a week, he complained to the Klausenberger Rebbe, of blessed memory, that he was shocked by the presence of immodestly dressed women in Kiryat Sanz. The Rebbe replied, “That’s amazing. I’ve been here over ten years, and I never saw anything like that.”September 14, 2011 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #1200182
Fix – There is a solution. remove yourself from the street, or live somewhere that does not give its citizens the choice to follow halacha, and chumras, or not. Chances are that kind of place is Iran, or Saudi Arabia. If you want the benefit of any public services, the protection of the army, the subsidization of schooling and health care, or the right to vote at all levels, you need to realize that those benefits come with a proviso that you cannot dictate how others will dress if they are not in your home or your beis medresh.
There is another solution. Israel is a democratic country. So you have the right to organize, create a constituency, and try to convince, with ahavas yisroel and convincing conversations, a majority of people to accept your views on tznius and legislate it into law. No one is stopping you from doing that. Just be aware that others have the right, in a democracy, to disagree with you, and to organize to opposite effect. Truthfully, though, most people have other things at the top of their legislative (not personal – those should have Torah at the top of the list) priorities, like putting food on the table, or ensuring that schools and yeshivos and hospitals run effectively, or protecting the country. You know, small, insignificant things like those.
Oh, one last solution. look away.September 14, 2011 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #1200183
One needs to think about the best way to give either them or their relatives tochecha.September 14, 2011 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #1200184tzippiMember
I LOVE sanctimony on the internet. Especially the coffee room. Say, Sanctimony on the Internet would be an excellent name….September 14, 2011 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #1200185
Yichusdic, you are wrong. We should go with the Hashkofas ha’Torah, not of the NY Times. We do not be’etzem beleive in the democracy, “human rights” shitos. Those shitos believe in allowing eberybody to do what they want, the Torah does not. The following might shock you and others: Saudi Arabia and Iran are by far closer to the Torah ideals than the West. Stop being influenced by the Western media.September 14, 2011 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #1200186
Tzippi, check out the definition of “sanctimony”. And I hate leitzanus in the CR.September 14, 2011 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #1200187Raphael KaufmanMember
MDD, It is you who are wrong. See Parshas V’eschanan.
P.S. You wouldn’t be welcome in Saudi but feel free to emigrate to Iran. I’ll pack you sandwichesSeptember 14, 2011 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1200188
Raphael, they are right about enforcing tznius and morality. For the debauched Westerners that’s the worst thing. And do not mix in here the anti-Israel shitos — I was not talking about that. What did you see in Va’eschanan? And again: Torah, not NY Times. You’ve been so influenced, it is hard to talk to you.September 14, 2011 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #1200189
Raphael, do you also approve of toeiva marriage?September 14, 2011 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #1200190Sam2Participant
MDD: Chas V’shalom. You are only correct in the fact that a Torah-run country would be run under a restrictive set of laws-i.e. Halacha. To say that a country with religious repression based on the whims and interpretation of religion by an insane dictator is closer to Torah values than democracy and freedom are is offensive to say the least.September 14, 2011 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #1200191
mdd is 100% correct. The pritzus rampant in Western Society is the polar opposite of the Torah.September 14, 2011 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #1200192
It might shock you, MDD, to find out that I am influenced by dealing with what exists in the here and now, not by what you think my political leaning is. First of all, you know nothing about me, and if you did, you would know that the New York Times and the mainstream media in general, and left wing politics in particular, are the opposite of my world view.
Quid pro quo in a democracy is a matter of simple menschlichkeit. People who live in liberal democracies take their freedoms for granted, and are often very quick to point out where someone else’s freedoms should end, thinking little about the cost/benefit analysis of their own participation.
I believe that you have to deal with the reality you live in, not act as if the one you imagine is already here. That means you have to deal with the democratic process if you live in a democracy. If you want to bring a Torah Hashkofah, like it or not you have to give the electorate a compelling reason to vote for it, and you have to honestly tell them, if you believe it to be so, that that is the last election they will ever have. Are you prepared to do that? Do you think you will get very far?
Lastly, Dina demalchusa dina applies, – especially for those who don’t look so kindly on the Medina, unless the Jews are being persecuted for being Jews (not asked to maintain their hashkofas and chumras without forcing them on others, but persecuted)and have no recourse to law or legislation.September 14, 2011 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1200193bbubbeeParticipant
It would be very interested to know what was about their dress that was untzniusdik.
If it was just that they were wearing sneakers & knee socks with a long denim skirt that is one thing, but if you could please elaborate it would help us to understand & help you. Thanks.September 14, 2011 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #1200194
didnt read the posts here but why do you think its any better in brooklyn, lakewood or monsey?September 14, 2011 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #1200196shlishiMember
Or in Miami, Chicago, Baltimore or Cleveland.
I think the OP is most concerned and outraged because in Eretz Yiroel, in the frum communities, there is a higher adherence to halacha.September 14, 2011 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #1200197metrodriverMember
Yichusdik; I tend to go with Yjneb’s solution. Don’t look. Hence you will not see what’s not appropriate. In our area (in Brooklyn), there are, from time to time, Kol Koreh’a denouncing the un-Tzniyus way that (According to the Poster authors) some people dress. What’s interesting. I never noticed. (B”H). And will continue (BE”H) to not notice. There is a story told about one of the Chassidic Rebbes, who once said that when he was very young he thought that he would “Fix” the entire world (To enhance their Yiddishkeit.). In Middle age, he thought of “Fixing” the people in his town. In his old age he realized that he must work very hard to keep his own devotion at an appropriate level.September 14, 2011 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #1200198Raphael KaufmanMember
A while ago here in Monsey there was a woman (don’t know if she was Jewish) who used to do her morning run down 306 in shorts and a tank top. Comments and questions such as those of the PO and MDD were raised at the time. Our Rav responded that, 1. It’s her neighborhood too and 2, It’s our responsibility to guard our own eyes.September 14, 2011 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #1200200
No, Raphael Kaufman. In an ideal situation, halacha is enforced by court.September 14, 2011 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #1200201
I have never been to Ramat Beit Shemesh and have no idea what type of population lives there or how it dresses. This thread reminded me though of another “not tznius bubbe” who I accidently met this past summer. While waiting in Monticello for the heimishe bus back to Brooklyn, a car pulled up and asked if anyone wanted a ride back to Brooklyn. The man seemed nice enough and I took him up on his offer. Once in the car, I had the pleasure of meeting his wife, a very not tznius bubbe. I quickly learned a lesson in not judging people when they started telling me about their family. Turns out, this “not tznius bubbe” supports 3 sons in law and 1 son who are learning in Kollel. Perhaps she was not raised the same way as girls are today and does not have an appreciation for what tznius means. I dont know, and I cant change someone else. Is her support for her childrens torah for naught because she dresses inappropriately? thats not for me to answer, that is for the beis din shel maalah. If I was her Rav or confidant, I would think about how to approach her manner of dress. Until then, I can only assume she doesnt know better, or simply does not have an appreciation for tznius because she was never taught to appreciate it.
While I do not have a solution, I do believe it is safe to say that hyperbole such as referring to how they dress as “non-jewish high school girls” is nothing short of inflammatory and will solve nothing. As an aside, to illustrate just how foolish a comment this is, this is what is considered an acceptable standard for non jewish high school girls, (this is from an article from the San Jose Mercury News, you can google it if you like) …. “the move to make cheerleaders wear sweats under their uniforms was enforced so they could fall in line with a dress code that requires all skirts or shorts to stretch lower than mid-thigh”. Hyperbole, it gets nobody anywhere, fast.September 14, 2011 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #1200203
Sam2, 1) how do you know about the “repression” and “whims”? The NY Times? 2)it is still closer then “do you what you want”.
Yichusdic, we have to know what’s right and not praise or condone what’s wrong. Dina de’malchusa does not override the Torah.
Raphael Kaufman, I second Tums.September 14, 2011 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #1200204
Which court in Ramat Beith Shemesh would you like to enforce hilchos tznius? Whose standard will they enforce?September 14, 2011 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #1200205
Certainly not degenerate Western standards.September 14, 2011 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #1200206gavra_at_workParticipant
Which court in Ramat Beith Shemesh would you like to enforce hilchos tznius? Whose standard will they enforce?
aye, there’s the rub
RBS is already a war zone, and I feel for anyone living there. You will just make it worse.September 14, 2011 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #1200207
Aside from the comment “dress like non jewish high school girls” which is clearly hyperbole, why do you assume they are dressed according to degenerate western standards? Perhaps the standards the OP wishes these women to be held to is the one upheld in Meah Shearim. You can engage in all the hyperbole you wish, it is counterproductive.September 14, 2011 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #1200208shlishiMember
Or, perhaps, the OP wishes these women would minimally cover their knees and elbows at all times. Something itself not a given even among the frum.September 14, 2011 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #1200209FIXTHEWORLDMember
obviosly justification is the easiest solution, but you are 100% incorrect! I do not expect people to dress like they do in meah shearim but at least in accordance to the laws of tznius, as I remember was followed strictly in baltimore before I made aliyah.September 14, 2011 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #1200210gavra_at_workParticipant
Or, perhaps, the OP wishes these women would minimally cover their knees and elbows at all times. Something itself not a given even among the frum.
What the OP wants is irrelevant. Once the priciple is decided, the strongest (or those willing to fight) will make their own rules (just like what is happening in RBS now).September 14, 2011 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #1200212
its sad but I heard that the women in Flatbush dont even try to cover their knees anymore. My friend told me she felt out of place when walking down the street and her knees were covered.September 14, 2011 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #1200214aries2756Participant
People will do as they were taught to do, unless they were taught what to do was NOT palatable and they couldn’t wait to get away from it and make their own decisions. Yiddishkeit has to be taught in a way that one learns to appreciate it and love it. If we view ourselves as royalty we present ourselves as royalty. If we view ourselves as prisoners we will present ourselves as prisoners. It depends not only of what was taught but how it was taught. The best thing on can learn in general is to try to lead by example in a honorable and pleasant way.September 14, 2011 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #1200215MiddlePathParticipant
aries, not only do I completely agree with you, but I think you said what you said in a such a perfect way. I’ve been trying to say this in others threads (regarding tznius) for quite a while, and my posts usually get deleted because I can’t quite say it properly, I guess.September 14, 2011 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #1200216am yisrael chaiParticipant
Post in stores’ dressing rooms, shul mailings, or wherever something cutesy but non-judgmental so that the reader can hear it. E.g.,
You know fashion designers like Vera Wang and Bill Blass
Who are considered Kings and Queens of elite fashion class
Whose goal is that their designs cause people to turn and stare
Who dictate to the rest of the world the current fashion flair
One year it’s slits, one year it’s tight
One year it’s short, to men’s delight
Exposing collarbones, elbows and knees
To the delight of any man who sees
They’ve apparently run short of fabric
On either side of the Atlantic
How can women be so blind
So as not to know the human male’s mind
Men are very visual creatures
So please cover your G-d given features
G-d is the BIGGEST fashion Designer
Who wants you to look refined and finer
He wants you to be attractive but not to attract
For you to be elegant but not to distract
You’re Hashem’s precious daughter whom He has blessed
So please Thank Him by the way you are dressedSeptember 14, 2011 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #1200217
FIXTHEWORLD. The only definitive statement I made was regarding your use of hyperbole. Otherwise, I clearly stated I dont know what goes on in RBS, nor do I know what it is that irks you about the way the “not tznius bubbies” are dressing there. Perhaps you would like to clarify your opening post?
You made the statement that they are dressing like non jewish high school girls. Does this mean they are wearing skirts that barely reach mid thigh? tops that reveal way more then they cover? body jewelry such a studs on their tongues?
Did I justify anything or did I say I am not their Rav or husband? Lack of education is not a justification, but if it IS the reason, reach out and teach them, otherwise nothing will change.September 14, 2011 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #1200218
Well, Tums, that’s the point. To determine what the standards are in a democracy you reap the benefits of, you need to influence those who set the standards. And guess what – in a democracy, the majority sets the standard. So reach out to the majority, and convince it, instead of expecting them to follow something they are not exposed to with love.September 14, 2011 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #1200219Queen BeeMember
I’ve seen many girls/women wearing skirts above their knees. I don’t understand it, but that could be because I’ve never struggled in this area. But I don’t want to judge them or turn up my nose when I see them. I just wish I’d understand them better (is it a fad? Or a peer-pressure thing?). And it’s not just the Flatbush women who dress this way.September 14, 2011 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #1200220
You catch more flies with Honey rather than VinegarSeptember 14, 2011 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #1200221tzippiMember
To mdd: you’re the first person who called me on that and you’re right, I just looked it up. Sanctimony is “feigned” piety and I have no doubt that most people are sincere. I guess I’m still conflicted over this medium and expect people on such a madrega not to be on the internet for anything less than business, not shmoozing, especially in a mixed forum.September 14, 2011 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #1200222
yichus: Democracy has nothing to do with Judaism or the Torah.September 14, 2011 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1200223
vinegar tastes good on fish, honey doesntSeptember 14, 2011 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #1200224TheGoqParticipant
I had a cousin who liked honey on smoked fish.September 14, 2011 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #1200225
I am picky when it comes to Fish, I love Sushi, but I cant stand Gefilte Fish, ESPECIALLY out of the JarSeptember 14, 2011 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1200226
the best vinegar for fish is malt vinegar
standard condiment for fish&chips in great britianSeptember 14, 2011 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1200227
And dont get me started on any kind of Herring Pickled, Schmaltz , cream or otherSeptember 14, 2011 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1200228
you never tried salmon with a honey dressing?September 14, 2011 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1200229
you can clean stuff better with vinegar than honeySeptember 14, 2011 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #1200230
you can kill more flies with vinegar than honey
why would anyone want to capture flies?September 14, 2011 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #1200231
80- ur on a roll today
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