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what happens to a jew who walks by himself into most ‘nongenocidal’ arab towns in the middle east ?
what happens to an arab who walks by himself into most ‘genocidal’ israeli towns in the middle east ?
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.do not base yourself on others’ opinions
base yourself on the facts which are in plain view, in the present , in the here and now ….
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.ujm> prior to Zionism Jewish life under Muslim rule was far far better than Jewish life under the rule of non-Muslims
true in many cases, but not all. You can’t average over all Muslim regimes. Still, 20th century is different and Hafez Assad is no Salahdin – it is filled with murderous regimes, many socialist but some muslim. This is not due to Zionism, but overall trends. Afghanistan, Yemen, Somali were able to oppress a lot of people far removed from zionist influence.
I have only stated a perspective on Zionism and I have had my Jewish lineage questioned, I’ve been accused of being a Jew hater, a Muslim, a non-jew, and told I’m going to gehenom.
Not once did I name call, or poke fun of you, or question your Jewishness, only stated perspectives.
In logic what your doing is called “ad hominem” when you focus your attack on my character instead of focusing on the issue at hand that I am raising.
I’ve also been called “he” multiple times, I’ll have you know you are debating with a woman.
And a woman who knows her stuff b’h.
Zionism as it is today is not inherently part of Jewish beliefs. If anything it is against those beliefs. Rav Avigdor Miller was strongly against this “atheist” state and encouraged flag burning.
Zionism is a nationalist supremest ideology. It serves the goals of the US and US christians more than it does Jews. If anything it puts Jewish lives at risk.
Beyond that it is murdering countless Palestinians, humans, children. Not all Hamas! They are bombing school, hospitals, creating starvation campaigns. We treat our animals better that Israel is treating the Palestinians (who you insist on calling the “local arabs.”)
Hello! There were people who lived in the land of Israel before the Zionist movement began. Large swaths of them. Arab Jews, muslims and christians. And the Zionist movement aimed to change that. To wipe the face of the map of the “bad human product” sitting in the land. These were people, families, communities, moved by force or threat from their homes and not allowed to return.
And yet any American with a dream can get a slice of land in Palestine. White Americans who ARE safe in the US can just pick up and go to a land that isn’t there’s and hasn’t been for milenia and claim it as their “birthright.” While Palestinians sit in an open air prison, in horrific conditions, not made that way because of tunnels or Hamas, but because of Israeli blockades among other factors. All funded of course by US and all in the interest of the US and their allies. This has almost nothing to do with Judaism, it’s a convient excuse for the west to claim a strategic land and military base. And cover up their genocide and defend any criticism of it with the claim of antisemitism.
This is not a Jewish state. This is a genocidal nationalist movement made to further US global interests. And now we are losing Jewish lives and wasting time we could be learning Torah and doing actual mitzvos talking about this
But here I am, because honestly I do see this as a mitvza, to bring people to see the light here. It’s deeply upsetting how far klal yisrael has gone off the derech on this issue. Ready to defend a literal genocide. For what??? Hashem protects we don’t need the murderous IDF.Radical anti-Zionists who want to dismantle the State of Israel,
more than 75 years after it was founded,
are like a mother who decides that she wants to abort her own child,
when that child is 25-years-old.Any mother who wants to “abort” her 25-year-old child
is a lunatic and a rodaif, and anyone who wants to
dismantle the State and Army of Israel, more than
75 years after they were founded, is also a lunatic and a rodaif.Every member of the Neturei Karta is a LUNATIC.
Every member of the Neturei Karta is a RODAIF.
Every member of the Neturei Karta is a MOSAIR.
Every member of the Neturei Karta is a TRAITOR.
Every member of the Neturei Karta is a CHILLUL HASHEM.
Every member of the Neturei Karta is guilty of helping to make anti-Semitism great again.
in respect to the sad argument who is our worse enemy at certain time period, maybe we are not very good at predicting that, and finding explanations bdieved is not really a kuntz. As R Soloveitchik writes – the anonymity of the Ish that Yaakov is fighting symbolizes exactly that – we are not able to tell where the danger might come from. His example is that socialists were preaching that capitalism is causing antisemitism, and then they came to power and became even worse ones.
““That being said, what I earlier stated that prior to Zionism Jewish life under Muslim rule was far far better than Jewish life under the rule of non-Muslims is absolutely 100% undisputable fact.””
YYA is right. Go learn history. Perhaps that was the case in the Middle Ages (I would contest that considering that taxes on non-Muslims, especaily Jews, were essentially extortion and protection payments to the mob, and certainly the treatment of Jews in Yemen was always abominable ), it certainly has not been the case for several hundred years already.
flaming OTD is totally disqualified from commenting on this subject
her suggestions are not reality based ,
her suggestions are not torah based
her suggestions are downright dangerous
she never learnt gemarah
she never learnt how to derive the halacha lemaaseh from the poskim
how on earth does she think that she is qualified to voice her am haarets opinion, on something which requires at least 23 dayanim
smuchim to sit together and explore those dinei nefashot bechoved rosh ???
utter stupidity or utter ga’ava or both , to think she is qualified to voice her opinion
she should close her mouth
and firmly so.
ujm said: “HaGaon HaRav Elazar Menachem Man Shach zt”l point is the same if surrendering the entire State would result in peace, HaGaon HaRav Elazar Menachem Man Shach zt”l psak is then it is obligatory to surrender the entire State. Yes, absolutely, as I said earlier, HaGaon HaRav Elazar Menachem Man Shach zt”l said if it results in peace.”
Is Rav Shach ז״ל on record saying that explicitly about the ENTIRE State, or is this your interpretation? Does anyone sane seriously think such an option exists or will exist without a complete reprogramming of 500M Arabs and 2G Muslims worldwide? (Something that probably isn’t happening before Moshiach comes.)
ujm – You keep on babbling about how the Arabs/Muslims were supposedly so wonderful to the Jews until Zionism came along. Even אם תמצי לומר that your thesis is true (it isn’t), the Arab mentality doesn’t care. If they hate Jews now, THEY THINK that they ALWAYS hated Jews, and that’s how they program their kids. They don’t believe in binary true/false or in history as an immutable reality, or in REALITY ITSELF as an immutable reality. So it doesn’t matter that factually at certain times in the past they were “so-so plus”, which qualified in the Middle Ages as a “Golden Age”. What matters is how THEY see their identity and history NOW. Not how you and your friends sitting somewhere you fool yourself into thinking is a safe distance away think they see themselves.
flamingOTD is invited to share her recipes …
then she will at least have some qualifications standing behind her ‘wisdom’ ….
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.> directly and unambiguously due to the Zionist Project radicalizing them
as one of my Israeli friends wondered – “is worth being cousins to people who kill their brothers?” Arabs & Muslims produced multiple wars and atrocities against each other in the last 80 years. We listed them here before. This proves that their attitude is not due to only Jewish influence.
Your argument of historical attitudes work to justify the “anti Z” position of 100 years ago. This position had a basis in history at that time, but it just happened to not be an accurate decision. You might come up with theological explanations why Hashem did not provide correct navua to tzaddikim,
and these are interesting to explore, but at least acknowledge the simple facts before going into theology.ujm seems blind and deaf
he keeps on harping on how things were 100 years ago
and about how could have been
all his interlocutors are pointing to todays reality
which is the only relevant factor to be taken into account
but ujm does not hear
ujm does not see ….
what is important in his eyes , is some sort of irrelevant utopia ….
time for ujm to relate to what is said to him in a real way ….
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.your point that :
“Yes, absulutely, as HaGaon HaRav Elazar Menachem Man Shach zt”l said, anything that results in peace is worth surrendering Israeli land for. Even the entire State, if that would result in greater peace. HaGaon HaRav Elazar Menachem Man Shach zt”l’s main point is peace is more important than land. Even giving up sovereignty of ALL the land.”
—
this is not only rav shach
every chareidi gadol would concur with your words IN A THEORETICAL SENSE ….
but we do live in practical world ….
even rav avigdor miller zatsal who was quite close to satmar view on many respects
stated in public that israel should not hand over territory for ‘peace’ as this will only result in more bloodshed
as subsequent facts amply demonstrated ….
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all those anti israel fanatics like ujm somejew and katan , not to speak about crazy flamingOTD …are in need of a long needle double dose reality injection ….
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.arabs have behira and are responsible for their actions
they are not little children who could be ‘made’ radicals or barbarians
it is their free choice and they should choose wisely and justly
there are plenty of arab mass movements who act like barbarians towards other minorities and towards their own brothers
totally unconnected to the question of zionism or otherwise
if you would be honest you would agree with me ….
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there is no reason whatsoever that jews would treated any better than the yazidi’s ….
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.@Yankel Berel
Your responses are deeply problematic on so many levels.
You assume to know my level of Torah study. You also create a binary where “only those who learnt gemarah” can have an opinion. This is occurring in the same world that restricts most women from accessing serious gemarah learning. Not necessarily advocating for this, but I’m just naming that your creating a situation in which most women are not entitled to even having an opinion on anything (outside of the kitchen).
This is deeply sexist, and disrespectful to the wisdom of women everywhere.The suggestion that I “close my mouth and firmly so” is honestly disgusting. Seriously have the courage to actually engage with the ideas i’m presenting not name call, spew sexist rhetoric, and try to shut me down just because the information I’m sharing hurts your feelings.
The relatively peaceful co-existence of arab jews and muslims is well documented.
The erasure of arab culture and history by the Zionist movement is well documented.
The genocide being committed by the IDF and the Israeli government, and supported by US funding, and international enabling, is well documented.The IDF is killing thousands of civilians, in the name of what? creating a land that prioritizes Jewish life over all life. I didn’t see Mashiach ride in on their white donkey yet. This is not the time, this is not the way. The killing of people, children, in the name of this ideology is devastating and needs to stop ASAP. One state, one vote. With reparations. There is no other way.
Reb “ujm”, למאי נפקא מינה what the Arabs held 1000 years ago, or even what the Zionists held 100 years ago? The מציאות today in Kislev 5786 is what it is, because the Ribbono Shel Olam put us here. How and why that happened isn’t part of our בחירה or עבודת השם. Our בחירה is only vis a vis what WE do NOW. So stop living in the past or in theoretical dreamworlds, and try being more sensitive to the very real issues faced by millions of Yidden in Eretz Yisroel, the vast majority of whom did nothing wrong (in terms of “Zionism”) and aren’t such big believers in the “Medina” anyway.
UJM- I haven’t read all the comments, but as someone who is Dati Leumi, in theory, I’m not opposed to your solution.
I believe that the State of Israel is Atchlata DeGeulsa… but not because it’s a Jewish state. While I do take pride in a state run by Jews, the Magen David billowing in the air, our politicians in the UN defending our nation, our soldiers defending our people… that’s all emotional, I don’t think it’s Halachically significant. At the end of the day, it’s a secular government, not a Halachic one. Regardless of how many Jews hold within it a position of power.
What gives our government significance is what it does for our people. Is the biggest funder of Torah in the entire world. Protects our people and our Mekomos Kedoshim. And most importantly, has facilitated Kibutz Galuyos… through its Right of Return, Klal Yisroel is returning to its borders. We’re close to 50% of our nation in Eretz Yisroel. And since that is a fundamental piece of our geulah, I believe with almost 100% certainty that our government is Atchalta LeGeulas for facilitating that necessary redemptive step- Kibutz Galuyos.
That being said, if a non-Jewish, non-denominational government would provide all of that to our people, I think it would have the same significance Halachically. So if none of those positives would change, but a non-denominational state would bring greater peace, I’m on board. But I’m under no delusion that that’s the case. No non-Jewish government would give as much money to Torah or facilitate the Jewish growth of Eretz Yisroel as our government has. No non-Jewish government would give a blanket right of return to Jews world wide and fulfill Kibutz Galuyos.
And most importantly, it wouldn’t even fulfill it’s goal. No non-Jewish non-denominational government in Eretz Yisroel would be safer for Jews than the current government with it’s various security branches- Tzahal and Mossad and ISA and our police.
Hashem should continue to grant our government success, continue to facilitate our Kibutz Galuyos, protect our people, help our leaders make the right decisions, and bring Mashiach.
UJM: I’m going to be very blunt: I’ve spent more than 10 years studying the Arabic language and Arab culture as well as Judaeo-Arabic and Middle Eastern Jewish history in academic and quasi-academic environments. I speak with experts in this field regularly and my profession requires in-depth knowledge of this area.
When I say you don’t know what you’re talking about, you absolutely don’t.
But you want a list?
Here ya go. This is from Sephardic U.
622–627 Ethnic cleansing of Jews from Mecca and Medina; Jewish boys publicly inspected and executed if found
622–634 Extermination of the 14 Arab Jewish tribes
624 Beginning of the elimination of the Jews after the victory of Badr
625 Expulsion of the Jewish clan of Al Nadir
626 Massacre of the Beni Khazradj Jews and division of families and loot
626 Murder of the Jew Kab, leader of the Beni Nadhir and satirist poet, and of his wife who had made fun of Mohammed
626 Expedition against the Jews of Kaihbar
626 Murder on the orders of Muhammad of the Jew Sallam abu Rafi
626 Mohammed had the palm trees of the Jewish oasis Beni Nadhir cut down
626? Expedition against the Jews beni Qoraizha; insulted by Mohammed: “O you, monkeys and pigs…”
626? Massacre of 700 Beni Qoraïzha Jews; bound for three days, then slaughtered above a ditch, with the young boys
627 Elimination of the Jewish Qurayza clan in Medina
627 Massacre of the Jews of Medina; sharing of families and property
628 Submission of the Jews of Wadil Qora
628 Mohammed to the Jews beni Qainoqa: “if you do not embrace Islam, I declare war on you”
628? Attack on the Jews of Khaibar, and torture of prisoners
628? Taking of the Jewish oasis of Fadak as Mohammed’s personal property
629 First massacres in Alexandria, Egypt
630 Submission of the Jews and Christians of Makna, Eilat, Jerba
638 Expulsion of the Jews from Jerusalem
640 Expulsion of Jews from Hedjez
643 Expulsion of the Jews from Khaibar by Omar
822–861 Islamic empire adopts a law requiring Jews to wear yellow stars, caliph al-Mutawakkil
940 Beheading of the Jewish exilarch of Baghdad for having sullied the name of Mohammed
945 Assassination by a crowd of fanatics of the last Jewish exilarch of Baghdad
948 Closure of the Jewish theological school of Baghdad “Sora”
1004 Jews and Christians must wear a black turban and sash in Egypt
1009 Jews and Christians in Egypt must wear a cross or bells in the baths
1009 Destruction of the Holy Sepulcher of Jerusalem by the Fatimids
1010 Persecution of Christians, Jews, and Sunnis by the Fatimid caliph Al Hakim
1010–1013 Start of massacre of hundreds of Jews around Cordoba
1016 Persecution of Jews are driven out of Kairouan
1032 5 to 6,000 Jews killed in a riot in Fez and expulsion of survivors
1040 Beheading of the Jewish theologian Gaon Chizkiya, head of a Talmudic school
1057 Capture and pillage of Kairouan by the Hilalian tribes; expulsion of Jews and certain Muslims
1066 Massacre of thousands of Jews in Granada in Muslim-occupied Spain
1073 Start of persecution against Jews and Christians by the Turks in Jerusalem
1106 Ali Ibn Yousef Ibn Tashifin of Marrakech decrees the death penalty for any local Jew, including his Jewish doctor, and his military general
1127 In Morocco, after the failure of the prophetic movement of the Jewish messiah Moshe Dhery, wave of persecutions and forced conversions
1142 Start of persecution against the Jews by the Almohads; massacre in Tlemcen, Bougie, Oran
1145 Jews of Tunis must choose between conversion and exile
1146 Capture of Meknes by the Almohads; persecution of the Jews
1147 Almohad invasion of Spain: expulsion of Jews or forced conversions
1147 Capture of Marrakech by the Almohads; persecution of the Jews
1147 Start of Almohad persecutions against the Jews of North Africa
1148 Almohads of Morocco give Jews the choice of converting to Islam or being expelled
1148 Start of the exodus of Maimonides fleeing the intolerance of the Almohads
1148 Almohadin of Morocco gives Jews the choice of converting to Islam or being expelled
1152 Advent of Abd el Moumin in Morocco; choice for Christians and Jews between conversion or death
1159 Controversy between Maimonides and the rabbi of Fez on the attitude towards forcible converts
1160 Capture of Ifriqiya by the Moroccans of Abd el Moumen; Jews and Christians must choose between death and conversion; Jews are converted by force and superficially
1165 Chief rabbi of the Maghreb burned alive; The Rambam fled to Egypt
1165 Flight of Maimonides to Egypt to escape the Almohads
1165–1178 Yemen: Jews throughout the country were given the choice (under the new constitution) to convert to Islam or die
1171 In Egypt, decree recalling obedience to ordinances concerning the submission of Jewish and Christian infidels under penalty of death
1184 Almohads impose distinctive signs on Christians and Jews in Spain
1198 Forced conversion of the Jews of Aden
1220 Tens of thousands of Jews killed by Muslims after being blamed for the Mongol invasion, Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Egypt
1232 Massacre of the Jews of Marrakech
1266 Tomb of the Patriarchs of Hebron is converted into a mosque and closed to Jews and Christians
1267 Mamluk Sultan Baybars forbids Jews from entering the vault of the Patriarchs in Hebron; the ban ended exactly five centuries later in 1967
1270 Sultan Baibars of Egypt resolved to burn all the Jews, a ditch having been dug for this purpose; but at the last moment he repented and instead demanded a heavy tribute, in which many perished.
1270 Widespread segregation of Jews in Andalusia
1276 2nd pogrom of Fez, Morocco
1284 In Baghdad, the Jewish doctor Ibn Kammuna died locked in a trunk after writing “a book in which he showed irreverence towards the prophecies”; he escapes a lynching and is threatened with the stake
1291 Death of the converted Jew Sad al Dawla, grand vizier of Argun Khan in Iran, a rank which provoked the anger of the Muslim court
1291 Forced conversion of the Jews of Tabriz in Persia
1301 Start of the persecution of the Jews in Egypt
1318 Beheading of Rashid aldin Tabid, historian and Persian minister, Jewish convert who provoked the anger of Muslim elites
1318 Forced conversion of the Jews of Tabriz in Persia
1333 Forced conversion of the Jews of Baghdad
1333 The traveler Ibn Battuta complains that Djenkchi Khan djagataï allows Jews and Christians to repair their places of worship
1334 Forced conversion of the Jews of Baghdad
1344 Forced conversion of the Jews of Baghdad
1351 Trial of Jews (in Cairo?) accused of desecration, who must choose between conversion or death
1385 Massacres du Khorasan, Iran
1390 Foundation of the first Jewish ghetto in Fez
1391 In Morocco, persecution of Jews from Spain
1438 Creation of ghettos for Jews in the cities of Morocco, under the name “mellah”
1438 1st massacres in the Mellah ghetto, North Africa
1448 In Egypt, decree recalling obedience to ordinances concerning the submission of Jewish and Christian infidels under penalty of death
1450 Trial of Jews accused of having written the name of Mohammed in their synagogue in Fustat; they are converted by force
1465 In Fez, pogroms after the discovery in the Jewish quarter of the tomb of the city’s founder, a descendant of Mohammed…; Jews are forced to move to the ghetto (11 Jews left alive)
1492 Jewish community of Touat in Morocco is massacred; synagogues destroyed
1516 Algerian Jews receive the official status of dhimmi from the Ottomans; certain colors are forbidden to them (red and green); they are not allowed to ride horses or carry weapons; they must pay the discriminatory tax; their representative is ritually slapped during the delivery of tribute to the authorities
1517 1st pogrom in Safed, Ottoman Palestine
1517 1st pogrom of Hebron, Ottoman Palestine
1521 Expulsion of Jews from Belgrade by the Ottomans
1524 Expulsion of Jews from Buda in Hungary by the Ottomans
1535 Pogrom then expulsion of Jews from Tunisia
1554 Looting and persecution against the Jewish population of Marrakech by the Turks who took the city
1574 Civil war in Morocco between three claimants; Jews are victims of all camps
1577 Passover massacre, Ottoman Empire
1588–1629 Pogroms of Mahalay, Iran
1604 Start of a period of famine, violence and forced conversions of the Jewish population of Fez: 2000 conversions in 2 years
1608 Persecution for two years of the Jews of Taroudat by the Berbers
1622 Forced conversion of the Jews of Persia
1630–1700 Yemenite Jews were considered “impure” and therefore forbidden to touch a Muslim or a Muslim’s food. They were obliged to humble themselves before a Muslim, walk on the left side and greet him first. They could not build houses taller than those of a Muslim or ride a camel or horse, and when riding a mule or donkey, they had to sit on the side. When entering the Muslim quarter, a Jew had to take off his shoes and walk barefoot. If attacked with stones or fists by Muslim youths, a Jew was not allowed to defend himself.
1650 Jews from Tunisia are deported to special neighborhoods called “hara”
1650 Forced conversion of the Jews of Persia, under Shah Abbas II
1656 Jews expelled from Isfahan in Iran
1660 2 pogroms in Safed and Tiberias, Ottoman Palestine
1670 Expulsion of Mawza, Yemen
1676 Expulsion of Jews from Sanaa in Yemen
1678 Forced conversion of Jews in Yemen
1679–1680 Sanaa massacres, Yemen
1700 Massacre of Jews in Yemen
1747 Massacres de Mashhad, Iran
1758 Executions of a Jew and an Armenian in Constantinople for violation of the legislation on the clothing of infidels
1770 Expulsion of Jews from Jeddah in Arabia
1785 Tripoli Pogrom, Ottoman Libya
1790 Destruction of most of the Jewish communities in Morocco
1790–92 Pogrom of Tetouan, Morocco (Jews of Tetouan undressed and lined up)
1800 New decree adopted in Yemen, prohibiting Jews from wearing new or good clothes. Jews were forbidden to ride mules or donkeys, and were sometimes rounded up for long, naked marches through the Roob al Khali desert.
1805 1st pogrom in Ottoman Algeria against the Jews of Algiers after a famine. French consul Dubois-Thainville saves 200 Jews by sheltering them in his consulate.
1805 Exile of Jews from Algiers to Tunis and Livorno
1805 The leader of the Jewish Nation of Algiers, Naphthalie Busnach, is killed while riots ravage the neighborhoods.
1806 Expulsion by fatwa of the Jews of Sali in Morocco
1806 Ban on Moroccan Jews wearing Western clothing
1806 The janissaries of the dey of Algiers massacre and pillage in the Jewish quarter
1807 Expulsion of Jews from Tetouan
1808 1st massacres in the Mellah ghetto, North Africa
1815 The chief rabbi of Algiers, Isaac Aboulker, is beheaded during a riot.
1815 The Jews of Algiers are forced to fight against an invasion of locusts
1815 2nd pogrom of Algiers, Ottoman Algeria
1816 In Algeria, ban on carrying weapons for Jews and Christians
1820 Massacres of Sahalu Lobiant, Ottoman Syria
1828 Pogrom of Baghdad, Ottoman Iraq
1830 3rd pogrom of Algeria, Ottoman Algeria
1830 Start of the persecution of Jews in Persia, caused by the Russian advance in the Caucasus
1830 Ethnic cleansing of Jews in Tabriz, Iran
1834 2nd pogrom of Hebron, Ottoman Palestine
1834 Pogrom of Safed, Ottoman Palestine
1838 Druze attack in Safed, Ottoman Palestine
1839 Massacre of the Mashadi Jews, Iran
1839 Forced conversion of surviving Jews from Mashadi
1839 Campaign of forced conversions of Iranian Jews
1840 Persecution of the Jews of Damascus; ritual murder case
1840 Forced conversion of the Jews of Mashadi
1840 Damascus, ritual murders (French Muslims and Christians kidnapped, tortured and killed Jewish children for entertainment), Ottoman Syria
1841 Massive murders of Jews in Morocco; the sultan is obliged to consider the Jews as his personal property, which helps to protect them
1844 1st Cairo massacre, Ottoman Egypt
1847 Dayr al-Qamar Pogrom, Ottoman Lebanon
1847 Ethnic cleansing of Jews in Jerusalem, Ottoman Palestine
1848 1st pogrom of Damascus, Syria
1848 Total disappearance of the Jews of Mashhad
1850 1st pogrom of Aleppo, Ottoman Syria
1854 Anti-Jewish pogrom in Demnate, Morocco
1857 Beheading in Tunis of the Jewish coachman Batou Sfez, accused of blasphemy, while he was drunk
1860 2nd pogrom of Damascus, Ottoman Syria
1862 1st pogrom of Beirut, Ottoman Lebanon
1864–1880 Marrakech massacre, Morocco
1866 Pogrom at Kuzguncuk, Ottoman Turkey
1867 Barfurush massacre, Ottoman Turkey
1868 Eyub Pogrom, Ottoman Turkey
1869 Massacre of Tunis, Ottoman Tunisia
1869 Massacre of Sfax, Ottoman Tunisia
1870 2nd Alexandria massacres, Ottoman Egypt
1870 1st pogrom in Istanbul, Ottoman Turkey
1871 1st Damanhur massacres, Ottoman Egypt
1872 Massacres in Edirne, Ottoman Turkey
1872 1st pogrom of Izmir, Ottoman Turkey
1873 2nd massacre of Damanhur, Ottoman Egypt
1874 2nd pogrom of Izmir, Ottoman Turkey
1874 2nd pogrom of Istanbul, Ottoman Turkey
1874 2nd pogrom of Beirut, Ottoman Lebanon
1875 2 pogroms in Aleppo, Ottoman Syria
1875 Massacre on the island of Djerba, Ottoman Tunisia
1877 3rd massacre of Damanhur, Ottoman Egypt
1877 Pogrom of Mansura, Ottoman Egypt
1882 Massacre of Homs, Ottoman Syria
1882 3rd massacre of Alexandria, Ottoman Egypt
1889 After the funeral of a rabbi, deemed too discreet, the Jewish cemetery of Baghdad was confiscated
1889 Looting of the Jewish quarter of Baghdad
1890 2nd Cairo massacre, Ottoman Egypt
1890 3rd pogrom of Damascus, Ottoman Syria
1890 Massacres of Tunis, Ottoman Tunisia
1891 4th massacre of Damanahur, Ottoman Egypt
1897 Murders in Tripoli, Ottoman Libya
1901–1902 3rd Cairo massacre, Ottoman Egypt
1901–1907 4th Alexandria massacres, Ottoman Egypt
1903 1st Port Said massacres, Ottoman Egypt
1903 & 1907 Taza & Settat, pogroms, Morocco
1903–1940 Pogroms of Taza and Settat, Morocco
1904 Massacre of Jews in Yemen
1907 Pogrom in Casablanca, Morocco
1908 2nd Port Said massacre, Ottoman Egypt
1909 Comment from the British vice-consul of Mosul: “The attitude of Muslims towards Christians and Jews is that of a master towards his slaves.”
1910 Blood libel of Shiraz
1911 Shiraz pogrom
1912 4th Fez pogrom, Morocco
1914 Expulsion of Jews from Palestine old enough to bear arms by the Ottomans
1917 Jewish Inquisition of Baghdadi, Ottoman Empire
1918–1948 Adoption of a law prohibiting the raising of a Jewish orphan, Yemen
1920 Irbid massacres: British mandate in Palestine
1920–1930 Arab riots, British Mandate Palestine
1921 1st Jaffa riots, British Mandate Palestine
1922 Massacres of Djerba, Tunisia
1922 Law of forced conversion of orphans in Yemen, concerning Jews including as adults
1927 60 Jews killed by Arabs in the Mellah of Casablanca, Morocco
1928 Massacres of Ikhwan, in Egypt and under British mandate in Palestine
1928 Jewish orphans sold into slavery and forced to convert to Islam by the Muslim Brotherhood, Yemen
1929 Anti-Jewish riots, British mandate: in August 1929, the Jews demanded the construction of the Western Wall; pogroms in Jerusalem, Hebron, Safed. To stop the violence, the British reject this request
1929 3rd Hebron Pogrom under British Mandate Palestine
1929 3rd Safed pogrom, British Mandate Palestine
1933 2nd Jaffa riots, British Mandate Palestine
1934 Anti-Jewish pogrom in Constantine, Algeria
1934 Pogroms in Thrace, Turkey
1934 1st massacres in Farhud, Iraq
1936 3rd Jaffa riots, British Mandate Palestine
1936 2nd Farhud massacre, Iraq
1938 Boycott of Jews in Egypt
1938–1945 Arab collaboration with the Nazis
1939 Discovery of 3 bombs in synagogues in Cairo
1941 3rd Farhud massacre, Iraq
1941 Persecution of Jews in Libya
1941 Massacre of Jews in Baghdad, with the support of the authorities: approx. 170 dead
1942 Struma disaster, Türkiye
1942 Nile Delta pogroms, Egypt
1942 Discriminatory tax law of Varlik Vergisi in Turkey against Jews and Christians
1942 Looting of Jewish property in Benghazi and deportation to the desert
1944 Attack on the Jewish quarter of Damascus
1945 Anti-Jewish and anti-Christian riots in Egypt; churches and synagogues destroyed
1945 4th Cairo massacre, Egypt
1945 Pogrom of Tripoli, Libya
1947 Segregation measures against Jews in Egypt
1947 Pogrom in Libya; approx. 130 dead
1947 Pogroms of Aden in Yemen
1947 3rd pogrom in Aleppo, Syria
1948 “Emptying” of the Jewish quarter of Damascus, Syria
1948 1st Arab-Israeli war (1 Jew killed in 100)
1948 Oujda & Jerada Pogroms, Morocco
1948 1st Libyan Inquisition of the Jews
1948 attacks by the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood against Jewish traders
1950 massive departure of Jews from Arab countries
1951 2nd Libyan Inquisition of the Jews
1952 Anti-Jewish and anti-Christian pogroms in Suez
1954 Assassinations and attacks in Algeria affecting the Jewish community, the desecration and destruction of 30 synagogues are attributed to Muslim populations
1954 Desecration in 1960 of the synagogue of Algiers as well as the cemetery of Oran
1954 Massacre of Sidi Kacem. 6 Jews were beaten and then burned alive with their children
1955 Anti-Jewish and Christian riots in Turkey; looting of churches and Jewish stores
1955 Attack on the rabbi of Batna
1955 3rd pogrom in Istanbul, Turkey
1955 Anti-Jewish riots in Izmir
1956 Fire in a synagogue in Oran
1956 In response to the attack on Suez, Nasser expels almost all Jews from Egypt, around 90,000 people, and confiscates their property
1956 1st Egyptian Inquisition of the Jews
1956 In response to the attack on Suez, Nasser expels tens of thousands of Jews and confiscates their property
1957 Murder of the rabbi of Nedroma
1957 Murder of the rabbi of Médéa
1957–1962 Attacks in the Jewish neighborhoods of Oran and Constantine
1960 A Saudi newspaper describes Eichmann: “the man who can be proud of having killed five million Jews”
1961 Grenade thrown into a synagogue in Boghari, Bousaada
1961 Ransacking of the Casbah synagogue in Algiers
1961 September 2, 1961, the assassination of a Jewish hairdresser in Oran and anti-Jewish attacks
1961 In Algeria, assassination of Jewish musician Sheik Raymond
1962 Desecration of the Jewish cemetery of Oran
1962 Pogrom in Oran
1962 July 5, 1962, a few days after the independence of Algeria, between 900 and 1,300 Europeans, notably Jews, were massacred in Oran
1964 The Egyptian army weekly notes: “In essence, the Jew has no qualifications to bear arms”
1964 Nasser tells a German neo-Nazi newspaper: “No one takes seriously the lie of 6 million murdered Jews”
1965 The Egyptian military manual presents the war against Israel as a jihad and quotes the Koran: “kill them wherever you reach them”
1965 Wave of anti-Semitism in Algeria; flight of the Jewish community
1965 Pogrom in Aden
1965 5th pogrom in Fez, Morocco
1967 2nd Egyptian Inquisition of the Jews
1967 Egyptian Jews are herded into camps during the Six Day War
1967 Pogrom in Libya during the Six Day War
1967 Pogroms in Tunisia
1967 The World Islamic Congress in Amman declares that Jews living in Arab countries must be considered “mortal enemies”
1967 Pogrom in Aden
1967 Arson of the great synagogue of Tunis
1967 Riots in Tunis, Tunisia
1967 World Islamic Congress in Jordan; it was decided that all Muslim governments must treat Jews “as mortal enemies”
1967 Publication in Egypt of the anti-Semitic text “The Protocol of the Elders of Zion”
1967 Pogrom and looting of Jewish stores in Tunisia
1969 Khomeini delivers thirteen speeches in Najaf which will be the basis of his book “The Islamic Government”; he develops the theme of hatred of Jews, accused of conspiring against Islam everywhere
1969 Execution of Jews in Baghdad
1970 Flight SR-330 Zurich — Tel Aviv crashes in a forest near Würenlingen, killing all 47 occupants. A bomb planted by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine exploded 9 minutes after takeoff
1979 Start of the flight of 200,000 Iranian Jews after the Islamist revolution.
1982 Tiberias pogrom in Israel, 6 killed
1985 Hijacking of the Achille Lauro cruise ship by Palestinian terrorists. Jewish-American passenger Leon Klinghoffer was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair.
1985 Rome and Vienna Airport attacks, carried out by Abu Nidal Organization
1992 Bombing of Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires, Argentina, killing 29 and injuring 242
1994 AMIA bombing in Buenos Aires, Argentina, killing 85 and injuring hundreds
1997 Terrorist attack on Empire State Building by Palestinian gunman, kills one and injures six
2000 Start of the Second Intifada, marked by increased violence against Israelis, including suicide bombings and shootings
2002 Passover massacre at Netanya hotel in Israel, 30 killed and 140 injured
2004 Taba Hilton bombing in Egypt, killing 34 and injuring 171
2008 Mumbai attacks, including Chabad House hostage crisis, 6 killed
2012 Toulouse and Montauban shootings in France, targeting Jewish schoolchildren and soldiers, 7 killed
2014 Hypercacher kosher supermarket siege in Paris, France, 4 killed
2015 Charlie Hebdo shooting and related attacks in Paris, France, targeting Jewish-owned businesses, 17 killed
2023 Thousands of armed Hamas terrorists tore down large parts of the Gaza security fence and invade southern Israel. Over 1,300 civilians were murdered, and over 200 were abducted. Hamas terrorists briefly took control of about 10 Israeli towns, terrorizing and brutalizing their residents. In addition, terrorists massacred hundreds at the Nova Music Festival, raping young women, brutalizing bodies, and abducting many. IDF forces operate to neutralize the terrorists, resulting in prolonged, bloody battles.UJM- I think working together to make the status quo better is a more feasible solution than blowing it up (figuratively speaking) and hope that a new, completely unknown reality, will somehow continue to give us what we already have and fill in what we don’t.
ujm,
Rav Shach was not NK.
“If possible” is a huge “IF”.
Even the limited peace agreements Rav Shach ז״ל approved of (Oslo) didn’t achieve their desired objectives, except maybe the earlier Camp David Accords with Egypt.
So what is your point? Neither you or I are the Prime Minister of the Tziyoinim so no one is asking us. They barely even ask him.
.
ZSK’s list is really impressive ….
.
.why is ujm insisting in quoting only rav shach in that regard ?
isn’t this the most pashut position agreed on by all gdoley yisrael ?
.
.after reading flamingOTD’s recurring comments I have come the conclusion that
she is , either
MAD , or
EVIL , or
RETARDED …
.
if she is mad , then she is blameless , may she have a refu’a bimeheraif she is evil , then may HKBH take care of her and her evil partners
if she is retarded and does not understand the meaning of the words she is using ,
then she should refrain from commenting until she properly learns the meaning of the words she is using
and the real repercussions of the words she is using
.
.I will leave it to the other readers of her comments to decide , which of the above three options is the closest to the truth …
.
.ZSK, thank you for your concise and precise history of Muslim anti-Semitism.
Please add these to your list of Muslim anti-Semitism terrorism incidents:
1972 terrorist massacre during the Summer Olympics in Munich
1990 November 5 murder of Rabbi Meir Kahane by Muslim terrorist
2000 December 31 murder of Binyamin Zeev Kahane & wife by Muslim terrorists
2001August 9 Sbarro’s restaurant suicide bombing in Jerusalem
2001 September 11 destruction of The World Trade Center by Muslim terrorists
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacksI will add the following, something I don’t typically discuss online:
No one with a functional brain is opposed to a non-denominational state, if it is doable. It’s not.
The UN cannot protect us and neither can the rest of the world. Obviously we rely on Hashem, but we also need to protect ourselves. That’s common sense and it’s where the State comes in. However, a non-denominational state can only work under the assumption that prevailing Arab and Islamic attitudes can be checked or changed, and that our broad national interests, especially Torah and Mitzvos, are preserved. My previous post demonstrates that this isn’t the case and likely will not be any time soon. Mizrachi, Sepharadic, Teimani and Maghrebi Jews have endured just as much hardship as Ashkenazim; based on that post, a non-denominational state – which would likely become a Muslim state very quickly due to population – would not be a net positive for us, to say the very least. Also, a non-denominational state completely ignores the reality of Islamic attitudes toward Jews and our general inabiltiy to get along with each other.
Thus, the status-quo is probably the only workable solution until Mosiach comes, or until such time as Islam goes through a reformation and loses its inborn attitudes. Also, all of Am Yisrael needs to grow up. Meaning: Chilonim move back to religious observance and stop picking stupid and pointless fights over Judaism in the name progressive/lefitst/anti-religious politics; RZ grows a backbone and stops kissing up to Chilonim as well as being a bit more skeptical of the State having its interests in mind; and Charedim contribute the way everyone else does – getting jobs, serving in the army / doing Sherut Ezrachi, etc.
I have more to say about this, but that is the short of it.
I got your point. You missed mine, which was:
1) The claim that “Sepharadic Jews lived in paradise”, which is in essence what you argued when you said:
(a) “The Jews under Arab and Muslim rule experienced nothing remotely close to the pograms, tach v’tat, annual Christmas attacks, and the Holocaust that Jews under Christian European control very recently in the last few hundred years through 1945 (people living in our generation) experienced”;
(b) “What I earlier stated that prior to Zionism Jewish life under Muslim rule was far far better than Jewish life under the rule of non-Muslims is absolutely 100% undisputable fact”- is not true and you are a liar, and my post demonstrates it clearly;
(c) “Prior to Zionism Jewish life under Muslim rule was far far better than Jewish life under the rule of non-Muslims”– is a load of utter BS (other than perhaps in Fatimid Egypt and some parts of the Ottoman Empire). The fact that you partially retracted your own statements doesn’t derogate from my own argument.
2) Your solution is a non-starter. (This thread is quite frankly a waste of space like most of the other ones about the tired subjects of Zionism, whether or not the State of Israel should exist or not, etc.)
As for the rest of your post: Yes, I did copy-paste the list – I never denied it. I even gave the source. It’s a list that makes my point quite effectively. If you know so much more than I do about everything under the sun, prove it. Present your credentials.
Also:
I see you decided to include the Holocaust. Nice try. That’s a form of Godwin’s Law – which by the way, you engaged in when you decided to compare the State of Israel to the Third Reich as a delegitimization tactic (you should be ashamed of yourself for having engaged in Holocaust trivialization by calling the State of Israel a Nazi government, especially as a Frum Jew on a Frum forum). Since you decided to engage in a contest measuring who suffered more despite YYA and myself telling you not to – and now we’re actually doing this (I truly cannot believe we’ve descended to such utterly pathetic depths) because you refuse to back down – we cannot include it because (1) it anhilliated both Sepharadim and Ashkenazim (obviously far more Ashkenazim) and (2) was on a scale completely unprecendented in history and must be in its own category.I will also point out that *you* started this, not me.
Yankel Berel said:
“…Rav Shach disapproved of equations of Zionism and Nazism,
as UJM is wont to do ….__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:He will never believe you, until you provide an exact source.
evidence that the Agudath Israel organization is pro-Israel:
______________________________
Yeshivah World News said this:“Agudath Israel of America expresses its appreciation
to Ambassador Nikki Haley, whose service in
the United Nations over the past nearly
two years has been exemplary.”“Ambassador Haley’s voice was clear and consistent
in championing the causes of human rights
and democracy across the globe.”“Her strong support of Israel and articulate defense
of its security made her a deeply respected figure
in the Orthodox Jewish community.”“Agudath Israel represents and among citizens of
goodwill of all faiths. She will be long remembered
as a fearless fighter against the pervasive
anti-Israel hypocrisy of the United Nations.”“We wish Ambassador Haley well as she leaves
her post, and look forward to working with her
again in the years ahead in whatever form
of public service she may undertake.”SOURCE: article titled: “Statement Of Agudath Israel
Of America On The Resignation Of Nikki Haley
US Ambassador To The United Nations”
2018 October 10 at 9:30 AM by The Yeshiva World [News]
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1602773/statement-of-agudath-israel-of-america-on-the-resignation-of-nikki-haley-us-ambassador-to-the-united-nations.html@UJM, You propose a non sensical solution, the second the arabs gave any power even if not an “arab state” just a religon neutral state they will kill us. Stop being so naive in thinking Oct 7 only happened to zionists. They would have had no issues cvs rapping your family or chopping your head off cvs. Mnay who they kidnapped where people who advocated for peace and giving them more.. Now do you want to debate if their anger is bec of zionism and had the state never have been founded it wouldn;t have happened? We can debate that history. (Perosnally I don’t think thats honest and its just amde upn fake news that kanaoim use). The main point is lets say you are right that its all the zionist fault. Its too late to move that clock back, Once the lion and mad men are out of the cage they won’t stop even if we hand them from the river to the sea.
To your theoretical but practically silly question of lets say it was all one land and they agreed to peace would we be OK to that? Again that depends will all us jews have a right to move there as a homeland even if its not under our government? Or would immigration be limited? Would we have the same freedoms?
Again its all theortical bec only a complete dummy would think that we are safe now once the arabs are wild? So right now we need our won army to protect us
ujm – “So, too, are secular Zionists (like Netanyahu) who still maintain the old Zionist ideals.”
Wow, ujm, you just gave Bibi a big compliment he doesn’t deserve…
“Are you accusing the Religious Zionists/Daati Leumi of not having functional brains? Because, even if it were doable, they are extremely opposed to such an idea.”
Anyone with a functional brain understands that there is no נפקא מינה anyway, because before Moshiach comes it ISN’T doable AT ALL, and after Moshiach comes מחיית עמלק will make it unnecessary…
ujm is being disingenuous
ujm claims :
“By the way, the idea of Israel should give up its land for peace, if that can be achieved, was advocated for by not only HaGaon HaRav Elazar Menachem Man Shach zt”l, but as well as by Chacham Ovadia Yosef zt”l and other Gedolei Yisroel.
In fact, I can’t think of any bona fide Godol Yisroel who ever voiced disagreement with this idea.
And the fact that Rav Shach, Chacham Ovadia, etc. advocated this, is the greatest indication that it is a viable and real option.”
—-
Rav Shach was in favor of Camp David agreements with Egypt which involved giving back land .
But Rav Shach opposed Oslo which also involved giving back land ….
How do we reconcile those two seemingly opposing views ?
The most important missing factor is the following : REALITY …
Which seems in very short supply ….
it is disingenuous to use rav shach’s name in advocating for NK folly of dismantling the medina , while rav shach himself is on record
opposing land for peace , when reality indicates differently
and it is this cardinal principle ujm , somejew and katan continously disregard
thereby being guilty of exactly what they accuse their opponents of —- playing with the lives of their innocent brothers
all because of some ideological madness , which they call ‘shitah hakdosha’
the extreme zionists are guilty of exactly the same
matsa min et mino …..
an excellent shidduch , they seem to deserve each other ….
.
.Evil, retarded mad woman here.
While we are arguing the IDF keeps killing. Recently it was Fadi and Jumaa. An 8 year old and a 10 year old gathering wood for their family. Their father is paralyzed and wheel chair bound and was at home preparing breakfast for them. They blew the kids to bits with a drone strike. Horrific.
If their names were Mendi and Yischak would you guys care more? Would you see the hatred fueling this genocide. This is not Torah. This is not how people acting in the name of Hashem should behave. If there is a genocidal dangerous ideology here, brainwashing children to become senseless murderers of civilians, it would be called Zionism.
I am not defending Islam or Hamas. I find them also deeply problematic in their ideologies. I also realize that we arent debating here about the merits of Islam or Hamas. We are debating if maintaining this Zionist state is what the Torah, and Hashem would be asking us to be doing right now.
And for me, i find the logic difficult to sit with. Does having a country benefit the Jewish people, perhaps in some aspects, but all too many have to die defending it, and have to die to make space for it. And ultimately the whole thing is one giant global chillul Hashem. This is not the Torah way. This cannot be.
flamingOTD is concerned about innocent children blown to bits in a war
very humane …
she even pretends to be a frum satmar minded woman , who is qualified to decide those issues of nefashot on her own , by listening and reading the news
and then using her own intuition
and voila , we have a ready judge and jury , a crime and a criminal .
no matter that the results of her libels are going to endanger many more innocents.
—
I have a few questions for our self appointed ‘kitchen genocide scholar’ …
.
.1] how many innocent german children died in world war two ?
was that genocide ?
if not , why not ?
.
.
.
.2] given that hamas – and the majority of so called palestinians supported by many millions more,
want israel and its jewish inhabitants to literally disappear from the face of the earth
why do you describe people dying in israel’s defensive wars as dying to ‘make space’ for it ?
why are they not considered as dying to defend their own brothers existence ?
.
.
.
3] why are you blindly parroting the distortions by the biased media ?why are you ignoring the fanatical armed men hiding in between those innocent children who are the real criminals
who are the ones who have the blood of those children on their hands ?
why are you so shallow to judge a book by the biased cover it was given by biased so called journalists ?
why are you not using some critical thinking instead of blindly following what biased people are feeding you ?
.
.
.
4] why are those fanatical men not offering the usage of their hundreds of kms of tunnels to those innocent children ?is it because they are hoping for [!] those innocent children to be blown to bits ?
and hoping for flamingOTD to write heartwrenching ‘humane’ posts about those evil zionists ?
.
.
.
5] why are you prepared to be the prop and the useful idiot in the hands of those very same criminalswho are the ones who have the blood of the children from their own community on their own hands
and are counting on you to do their bidding ?
.
.
.6] why did you ignore the questions posed to the qualified genocide scholar going under the name of flamingOTD ?
will repeat the questions , so that our eminent scholar will be able to give her erudite opinion :
what happens to a jew who walks by himself into most ‘nongenocidal’ arab towns in the middle east ?
what happens to an arab who walks by himself into most ‘genocidal’ israeli towns in the middle east ?
.
.flamingOTD said:
“Recently it was Fadi and Jumaa. An 8 year old and a 10 year old
gathering wood for their family. Their father is paralyzed and
wheel chair bound and was at home preparing breakfast for them.
They blew the kids to bits with a drone strike. Horrific.”__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:The leaders of Hamas intentionally place Arab civilians –
including Arab children – in places where they are most likely to be killed.They do this for many reasons:
__________________________________________
[1] Hamas knows that the MSM (Mainstream News Media)
will blame Israel, and *** ONLY *** Israel,
for the deaths of Arab civilians.
This is a big propaganda victory for Hamas.Therefore, the leaders of Hamas intentionally place Arab civilians –
including Arab children – in places where they are most likely to be killed,
for the purpose of scoring propaganda victories against Israel.The leaders of Hamas could have easily saved the lives of Arab civilians,
by permitting them to enter underground tunnels.
But they DO NOT WANT to save the lives of Arab civilians,
because they want the MSM (Mainstream News Media) to blame Israel,
and *** ONLY *** Israel, for the deaths of Arab civilians.Stated another way, the leaders of Hamas use Arab civilians –
including Arab children – as HUMAN SHIELDS.This is rarely mention by the Mainstream News Media.
__________________________________________
[2] The parents of Arab children actually WANT their children to die,
so they can claim cash payments from the leaders of Hamas.This is rarely mention by the Mainstream News Media.
__________________________________________
[3] The parents of Arab children WANT their children to get killed by Jews,
because they believe this permits the entire family to enter Paradise,
without having to first pass through the sufferings of Purgatory.This is rarely mention by the Mainstream News Media.
__________________________________________
[4] The parents of Arab children WANT their children to get killed by Jews,
because they believe this gives them increased and improved social status,
as the Parents of Martyrs.This is rarely mention by the Mainstream News Media.
yankel> it is disingenuous to use rav shach’s name in advocating for NK folly
disingenuous?! yankel, we all have lost our minds if we let ourselves quote talmidei chachomim in a way to improve our personal positions. It is a free-world disease of “free speech” where each side brings best arguments for their side, hoping for the other side to not find good arguments. We all absorb that and start using in the Jewish world. This is my biggest takeaway from discussions here – how assimilated we all are.
Just think – a T’Ch was holding certain positions and some guy in a basement has hutzpah to extract a quote from a T’Ch that fits him, disregarding the full views of the author. This is bigger bizayon of Torah than any anti-religious author is capable of.
ujm: Considering the sheer number of times you, HaKatan and somejew have tried to misinterpret what I say or try to pull DARVO, not to mention engage in intellectual fallacies (most often appeals to authority but also no true scotsman and even Godwin’s Law), don’t complain, troll boy.
@flamingOTD
I fail to see your point and your example is a poor one.First of all and most importantly, Israel doesn’t seek to kill Palestinians. Its not out there for Muslim blood. Leaving my next point aside, yes during a war accidents occur especially when its a war where the enmey is embedded within the population. Thats not a chilul hashem when its survival,
Second, chances are their father was a terrorist or collaborater. I don’t buy that he as innocently eating breakfast. They play a good game at that. Where was he the night before?
Third, almost all celebrated Oct 7 and children as young as 7 participated while many others knowingly held hosatges. I just don’t buy the innocence.
But again the key point is that Israel never intentionally kills innocent people. Your whole notion that
” I find them also deeply problematic in their ideologies. ” as if its just an ideology vs outright a cult of terror is extremely flawed. I pray that all muslims perish but not from my hand but g-ds wrath. as we pray that g-d take revenge on our enemies.Really? You’re going to my “supposedly questionable” Yichus again? (It’s not at all, you’re just digging for something to go after me over)
So now we have ad hominem attacks as well.
Keep digging yourself into that hole.
Back to the argument at hand: Putting aside internal Jewish and Israeli politics (since you insist on differentiating between the two), your idea is a non-starter from the POV of the Arabs and purely from a Pikuach Nefesh standpoint. You know it and so do I.
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