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Joseph Goebbels,
“If you were Jewish…”
You should be tuned over to Germany for prosecution as an anti-Semitic Nazi, just like your close relative was. You’re certainly not Jewish!
After the Balfour Declaration, in HaTekufah HaGedolah, page 174 to 175,
Rabbi Meir Simcha of Dvinsk (born in 1843 CE & died in 1926 CE)
wrote that “the fear of The [Three] Oaths has departed.”He expressed his approval of Religious Zionism
in Sare HaMeah, Volume 6, pages 233 to 234.– the status quo is a small pikuach nefesh ‘sakana’
the sakana of your suggestion is multiplied a thousand fold
one has to be blind not to see that
blinded by terribly contorted way of paskening like an aggadic maharal – against all codifiers of halacha
blinded by an ideological inflexibility of subservience to a so called shitah hakdosha
btw, the blind are not allowed to paskan any she’elot …
.
.There is a very important psychological concept in enmeshed narcissistic hierarchical systems called DARVO
Deny
Attack
Reverse
Victim
OffenderThe quotes about “buying the bias of whatever you are fed” I mean c’mon here. Thats literally you.
Your denying the reality of palestenian suffering
attacking me for suggesting it
and reversing who the victim and the offender are
Oh let me play a sad song on the worlds smallest violin for the poor Zionist state, FUNDED WITH BILLIONS OF US DOLLARS.Regarding the questions about a Jew in a Palestinian town and a Palestinian in a Jewish one, your comments are totally off base. Palestine (or what the Zionists are calling Israel), has been turned into a ethno-supremist state favoring Jewish lives over all others. It erases the the history of the Arab muslims and Christians and others, who lived there prior to the Zionist rule. Palestinians are not safe in any Israeli town. Their rights have been stripped, and their land stolen. Palestinians are not safe from Israelis anywhere in Palestine! Not even in the area still being called “theirs” that is really just an open air prison.
I think one of the major things being missed here is the idea of systemic violence. Just because it’s done by a government and with laws and court approvals, doesn’t make it okay. The Israeli government and army, funded and supported with billions from the US, has systemically erased and genocided the Palestinian people. Just because its not with gas chambers, doesn’t make it not genocide.
I mean someone in this chat literally said they pray for the destruction of Muslims. I mean c’mon now. The Muslims are not the enemy of the Jews. Our real enemy is hierarchical power systems that treat human lives as an after thought. That is what got us in the Holocaust, that has what has got us throughout our history.
I am not denying Muslims were at points in power and performed these abuses. I am not denying the deeply problematic ideologies in the Koran. I could say the same for many Christian ideologies too which have been responsible for the loss of countless Jewish lives. But to pray for the deaths of “Christians and Muslims” when many of them basically share our same values is ludicrous and deeply Islamaphobic.
UJM, no, appealing to authority is not the most correct. That’s just oversimplified.
If you want to appeal to authority, why not the Rabbanut? Or the Reform movement leadership (more so pre-1970s but still somewhat correct)? They all have various forms of authority, like it or not. So you haven’t made an argument.“Actually, a subset of Arabs are proponents.”
They are not the majority and that matters. The position is irrelevant because it is a minority position. The fact is that Muslims have hated Jews from the start and the list proves it. Okay, there was a period in the Middle Ages where there were “rational” Muslims. The religion never fundamentally changed and history shows it was a rather short a period of time in Andalusia and part of Iraq, not the entire rest of MENA, where such tendencies never took hold. The majority have always viewed Jews as a barely tolerated minority – just like Christians. Go read Ibn Hazm’s Judenhasse-filled treatise from the 8-900s and the Rashba’s response to it a few hundred years later.
“The status quo is a Pikuach Nefesh sakana and has been for 77+ years.”
It would CV”H be worse if we let the Arabs become the majority in a non-denominational state, because everyone would CH”V be wiped out – the state would have become Muslim-majority very quickly. Would you like to see where that would leave us?
Again, the point is that your idea is naive, dangerous and completely impossible until Islam goes through a permanent reformation the way most of Christianity has (and no, I’m not denying the fact that there are rabid Jew-hating Christians. I’m from a part of the US where that is a fact of life).
As for appeal to authority being the most correct, you’re generalizing. Our Rabbonim cite previous authorities and the general consensus – almost in the manner of peer-reviewed article (That’s something somejew got right). By and large you do not see “XYZ said so, ergo it has to be ABC”. There’s usually a reason given, even if it is just “מנהג אבותינו בידינו”. On top of that, whose authority? The Rabbanut? Satmar? JTS? NK? Yeshivot HaKav? Like smerel said – they all have forms of authority
flamingOTD is the exact embodiment of her own libel of others:
Deny
Attack
Reverse
Victim
OffenderRegarding the questions about a Jew in a Palestinian town and a Palestinian in a Jewish one, my comments totally reflect day to day reality for the last 77 years
Arabs frequent 99 % of Israeli towns without any fear ,
while Israeli’s fear for their lives in most Arab towns .
THIS IS THE REALITY
as long as you deny reality your words are totally worthless …
.
.how many innocent german children died in world war two ?
was that genocide ?
if not , why not ?
.
..
UJM, really happy we’re making progress toward defining authority. You were so broad at first.
What I can say is that YOU are not authority. With absolute certainty, you would have supported those who burned Rambam’s seforim in Paris. You would be among the crowd cheering Ramchal sent to exile. You would support the Baal Shem Tov put in cherem. You just live in the wrong century.
Rabbis Ammiel Hirsch and Elliot Cosgrove are more authoritative and sincere than you. They are sometimes wrong but will actually have a basis for their beliefs, even if some are vacuous truths. You just lie about what <insert Torah true authority here> said to fit your narrative.
It’s very easy to mention people far greater than you, who have written thousands of pages of analysis on an overall higher level than ANYONE on this forum (including myself) as if that’s a source. Sit down and learn whatever you reference, then internalize it. You might as well be a Zionist for your obsession and by how much Zionism defines you.
There’s a reason you never quote the Chazon Ish on halachic shiurim or the Chofetz Chaim on refined speech. The Chofetz Chaim said many times not to believe everything you see on the internet, והמבין יבין.anywhere between 600000 and two and a half million German civilians died during the 1940’s as a result of the Allies war against Germany .
Is that genocide ? ? ?
for an established scholar of genocide like yourself , that should be an easy question to answer ….
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.
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.ujm is still living in make believe reality
lets say he is right that historically life under muslims was better than life under xtians
I happen to concur with him on that point …
but —
lema’an hashem …. why is this at all relevant ???
do they want to repeat october 7 again and again – yes or no ?
do they treat other types of communities in the middle east fairly – yes or no ?
why is ujm sidestepping those essential realities ???
.
.UJM, considering that you aren’t Orthodox and are just a control freak who manifests his desires in the language of religion, I’m really glad not to be considered Orthodox by you. All the more so why I believe Rabbis Cosgrove and Hirsch are more sincere and truthful than you. Which is quite a low bar. At least they don’t base their life on what they think others do wrong.
> . Relative to living under Christian and European rule, Jews have fared RELATIVELY and COMPARATIVELY far far better under Islamic and Arabic rule,
and then it was not so after WW2 … R Soloveitchik comments on the anonymous Ish that Yaakov is fighting – we usually cannot predict who will be our next adversary.
So, this raises a question about how Zionists were relatively better at anticipating where dangers were coming from than many other groups. Depending on your political position, I guess, you could argue whether this is a siman that their derech is successful or you can come up with some theological explanations why Hashem chose to keep others blinded but provided yeshua via this group. If we compare, for example, with the last years of second commonwealth, then the zealots did badly and rabbis were better at leading the nation. “But we now learn uktzin better” is an answer that gemorah seem to disapprove.
Al pi derech hateva, it may be that Zionists were involved in international politics, so they had some understanding of world events, comparing for those who were involved only in inter-Jewish politics only. We see similar things in Israel now where, according to Kissinger, “there is only internal politics”.
but —
lema’an hashem …. why is this at all relevant ???
why is the centuries old comparison between xtians and muslims relevant ???
do they want to repeat october 7 again and again – yes or no ?
do they treat other types of communities in the middle east fairly – yes or no ?
why is ujm sidestepping those essential realities ???
.
.Joseph Goebbels,
You should be tuned over to Germany for prosecution as an anti-Semitic Nazi, just like your close relative was. You’re certainly not Jewish!
> Zionists are the THE reason and cause 2,000+ years of history flipped completely from the Arabs/Muslims treating us,
this was answered already, not sure why you are repeating the claim without addressing our responses: modern Arabs were mis-treating many other groups in the last 100 years.
Furthermore, I don’t think Arabs changed much – it is just the western world was good to us, so far, post-WW2. And even Russians treated us better post-Stalin. And Arabs stayed the same – they always had bad leaders once in a while. Iran-Iraq war is not that terrible comparing with WW2, but it looked so 40 years later. Assad and Qaddafi were not worse than Stalin and Hitler.
FlamingOTD:
No offense intended, but with all due respect,
people do not listen to you because
you are wrong, wrong and WRONG!!You do NOT know what you are talking about.
Your facts are distorted and incomplete.
You CANNOT get the truth about Israel or Islam
from the Mainstream News Media (MSM).__________________________________________
Mr. Eric Starkman
(a Los Angeles-based writer and journalist) said:“The mainstream media has abandoned all pretense of objectivity.
Whereas in the past journalists viewed themselves
as unbiased chroniclers of the news, their focus today
is on manufacturing it and dominating the ensuing conversations.A journalist’s influence today isn’t determined by
the quality or accuracy of their reporting,
but rather the size of their Twitter following and
the frequency of their television appearances.”SOURCE: “Why Crown Heights Hate Crimes Aren’t Newsworthy”
by Eric Starkman, 2019 February 17, in The Algemeiner__________________________________________
Indeed, Palestinians rarely make an appearance in
The [Washington] Post, unless it’s to serve as
the perennial victim — and this too is contingent on
portraying Israel, and ONLY Israel, as the oppressor.When Palestinians suffer at the hands of their [own] leaders,
The [Washington] Post is nowhere to be found.”SOURCE: article by Sean Durns, 2019 March 6 www dot algemeiner dot com
“The Media Only Cares about Palestinians If Israel Can Be Blamed”__________________________________________
Mr. Stephen M. Flatow said:“Despite the constant refrain from the J Street and
the international news media about the so-called
‘Israeli occupation of the Palestinians,’ the reality is
that 98 percent [98%] of the Palestinian Arabs
live under Palestinian rule.”SOURCE: “Looking for Jews to kill”
by Stephen M. Flatow, 2019 March 6, www JNS orgI do not sit in bet din shel ma’ala
neither do you
so we do not have to pass ultimate judgement on any individual
thats HKBH’s job
what is ‘our job’ is to decide al pi hahalacha what the way forward is in this complicated situation
and it is this which you ignore
you ignore it with an akshanut bordering on an obsession …
the fact is that millions of innocents are threatened with endless october 7 repeats
why is ujm not addressing this at all ??
besides — are the irreligious of todays israel personally responsible for the missteps of the zionists of four or five generations before ??
where is your logic ???
.
.
.all of your nonsense has been addressed over and over.
if anyone feels afraid in palestine, they can leave.
Jews who believe in the Torah know that we gain nothing by doing aveiras and specifically we are not safer by having a zionist army
@flamingOTD
Once again Ill keep it simple. The Israeli govt does not do any systematic genocide. Thats completely false. I refuse to debate history or the old Nakba arguments. Not because I don’t think its flawed but because I want to focus on the present, last 25-50 yearsIn the present moment, Israel does not seek to kill or hurt any Palestianin other than terrorists who are out to kill or hurt us. If every one of them put down their guns today and said we are finished, no more Hamas , no more killing, we completely surrender any resistance, then not a single palestinain would get killed. All Palestinains who act peaceful are not targeted. Contrast that to Israel’s who were helping palestianins and pro peace on Oct 7 whop were still targeted and killed. So why were so mnay killed in Gaza? Because its a tough war when Hamas hides among the population or in its tunnels. Israel isn’t evil and is trying to do its best not to kill Palestinians.
Does that mean Palestianins don’t suffer? Ill be the first one to say yes they are suffering. Yes they are hungry. But why are they suffering? Not because of israel but because of Hamas. Many are part of a cult called Hamas. They have a stronghold over their people and want them to suffer. They want hunger and pain so they gain sympathy. They take away baby formula and bully their people to join the fight if you want your baby to live. Its one large Johnstown where its people drink the kool-aid
somejew is clearly going against shulhan aruch OC 329
where the option of ‘leaving’ is not taken into consideration at all
ad kedei kach that clear hilul shabbat is permitted and even obligated
besides — millions of people cannot ‘leave’ without a place taking them in
if you want —- ask the passengers of the st louis in 1939 — just a few hundred people
they also wanted to ‘leave’ ….
and everyone knows how that ended ….
or ask any of the countless of our people in line from morning through the night in front of the various consulates and embassies in Europe …
why is somejew akshening with obvious non starters whenever pikuach nefesh questions come up for discussion ???
why is ujm akshening with deafening silence whenever pikuach nefesh questions come up for discussion ???
does that have anything to do with a mysterious maharal on agadeta which indicates against clear and established tur and shulhan aruch in YD ?
is that the reason they approach pikuach nefesh questions with the same cavalier attitude as the reform have towards driving on shabbat ????
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it is time that ujm and somejew confront the stark facts as they are …..
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.@chaim87 they won’t put their guns down if their land has been systemically stolen. The land that is there (israel) prioritizes one race over another. And while certainly in our Torah we prioritize Jewish life, governments are not beholding to Torah law.
To call the genocide “completely false” is way too easy of a cop out. That word has been supported by organizations inside and outside of Israel. At the very least you’d have to bring some STRONG evidence to back your claims that these organizations are biased against Israel for whatever reasons. If anything the powers at be have strongly supported Israel over Palestine. While yes the left wingers and many young college students and profs are pro Palestine, most of the people with actual power are pro-israel, and more specificly the US government pouring billions into Israel.
The idea that “israel only targets terrorists” is deeply false too. A vast majority of the deaths in Gaza are civillian. Most recently a 10 and 12 year old were killed for the heinous crime of collecting wood for their disabled father.
I realize that this can be hard to fathom, as we have been trained our entire lives to see it from the perspectives of the Jewish heroes fighting the world that hates us. I certainly was raised in an extremely zionist environment, that saw any words against Israel as an attack on all Jews. I stopped supporting Israel as I became more frum and I felt the state founded by atheists did not have Torah goals in mind.
My opinion since then has continued to evolve. Once I got a better understanding of the actual power dynamics in the middle east, it became unmistakably clear that there is an oppressed and an oppressor. This does not erase Hamas’ actions, October 7th, or a history of global anti-semitism. Yes Jews have been oppressed. And yes they too are oppressors. The two are not mutually exclusive.
If your curious and are comfortable going on youtube there is a video by a youtuber named Overzealots called “Destroying every zionist talking point” that really helped me and opened my eyes.
Hope flamingOTD ‘s “opinion” will continue to “evolve” in the direction of clear facts based and torah based analysis ….
she claims she is new to frum life …
she claims she is female and from sepharadi origin ….
she claims one does not need to know torah to formulate a frum viewpoint ….
she claims there is an oppressed in the middle east
she claims that if israel will stop fighting back , the israelis will somehow not turn into the oppressed ….
she claims that if and when that happens chvsh … the israelis will be able to
take comfort in the sure ‘promise’ that flamingOTD will write posts in their defense …
now that we have this promise …. it is sure that the israeli’s should stop their defense against the ‘promised’ sure repeats of october 7 ….
the only thing still missing now … is a ‘promise’ of sharing of some middle eastern recipes courtesy of flamingOTD …
which we can ‘promise’ … that she is highly qualified to supply …
sorry …. ‘qualified’ —- what does that mean exactly ???
voila , the most thorny problem in the world is solved — courtesy of a foolishly flaming woman …..
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.flamingOTD
their land was not ‘stolen’ …
they themselves ‘stole’ the land
classic case of the thief himself screaming thief …
—-israel does not prioritize one ‘race’ over another ….
there are arab ministers , supreme court judges and MK’s in israel
that’s another libel you mindlessly repeat …
——besides … jews come from all diverse ‘races’ . brown, white, black and yellow
another lie you propagate ….
——
the word genocide has been artificially stretched to include what really are reasonable expectations of civilian casualties
considering the context of hamas hiding behind civilians coupled with international hypocrisy in denying civilians the natural option
all other civilians in war zones , have ….. : running away
all civilians in all other war zones do run away and save themselves …
arab and leftist hypocrites like you , block their escape and therefore have innocent blood on their hands
————–
your lack of elementary logic is amply manifested by your following words :“…the idea that “Israel only targets terrorists” is deeply false too. A vast majority of the deaths in Gaza are civillian ….”
Why is the fact that the vast majority of deaths in gaza are civilian , any proof that israel does not target terrorists ??
Were the majority of deaths civilian in the invasion of Iraq ????
Were the majority of deaths civilian in the War in Afghanistan ????
In any other war , were the majority of deaths , civilian ???
There is no logic whatsoever in your reasoning ….
They are riddled with lies and misrepresentations
And they are useful ammunition IN THE PAST AND FUTURE MURDER OF MY OWN BROTHERS AND SISTERS !!
SHAME ON YOU !!!
————————————-
@flamingOTD:
It is not the Jews that are the oppressors in any conflict; that conflict is between the Zionists and the Arabs, not Jews and Arabs.
@yankel-berel:
It was the wicked Zionists, of course, who caused those countries to abandon their plans to take in those Jews from Europe, as the wicked Zionists – falsely claiming then, as now, that they were speaking on behalf of world-wide Jewry – lobbied governments against allowing in Jews to their countries because it was disloyal to their ambitions for then-Palestine even though the British had limited immigration to Palestine due to all the terror and war the Zionists were fomenting there in then-Palestine.But that’s besides the point, as he mentioned.
Why are you distorting the plain facts ???
the passengers of the st louis in 1939
were NOT blocked by your favorite bogeyman , the zionists …
they were the victim of plain old antisemitism
so were the blocks long lines of desperate people queuing entire nights in order to be rejected from getting visas in 1940 – 41
they were the victims of plain old antisemitism
and the millions of your brothers, somejew and ujm want to change into refugees because of some non halachik agedata maharal
will likewise not have any place to go to …
but you do not care …. like reform does not care about hilul shabat ….
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.
.Curious, if you were not Jewish and you knew the Torah was not true. Lets say you had a bas kol from shamayim telling you the Torah wasn’t true, would you still support the idea of Israel?
Like from the perspective of the world, we are using an ancient religious text to justify the genocide of an indigenous group of people. We certainly wouldn’t be the first group to do this (see manifest destiny and many others).
Like without the Truth of the Torah by our sides is this truly the best way for Jews to be safe? with a random country in the middle east that we once had connection to? Like we werent the only ones who lived there. At no point was this land officially “ours for eternity” beyond of course the guarantee from the Torah.
But for those that don’t believe in the Torah, you must be able to see how they see things. Even if this was just for Jewish saftey, why would any non jew think to prioritize Jewish saftey if it mean genociding another oppressed group. There must be better ways to insure Jewish saftey that doesnt include Palestenian murder and continued displacement.
And now we don’t have to move out the current Jews, one state is a viable option. The Palestenians are not looking just to harm us. They want a home and rights. That makes sense. Anyone would want that. Including us or anyone else.
flaming :
Curious, if you were not Jewish and you knew the Torah was not true. Lets say you had a bas kol from shamayim telling you the Torah wasn’t true, would you still support the idea of Israel?—
this comment too is showing your shallowness …
1] a bas kol is irrelevant . we know torah was given by HKBH and even a thousand bas kols will not make even a whiff of a difference
cf rambam hilchot yesodei hatorah towards the end
2] besides — since when is the premise of torah not being emet a precondition for our thinking ???
think your thinking process still needs to “evolve” …. substantially ….
if the torah is not emet , then why would you not be a communist , a nazi , a pedophile or a mass murderer ???
====================================================================================
flaming:
…. Like from the perspective of the world, we are using an ancient religious text to justify the genocide of an indigenous group of people. We certainly wouldn’t be the first group to do this ….—
again shallowness :
3] from the perspective of the world — meaning in other words : the elites , the shallow , the muslims and the antisemites ….
since when is reality and real morality objectively decided by those shallow and /or biased people ???
have you regressed so far in your own thinking that you have to outsource your inviduality , your own opinions to those shallow and biased people ??
you cannot think for yourself anymore ???
if many millions of people would support nazism , would you fall in line , simply because that would be “the perspective of the world” at the time ????
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flaming :
…. we are using an ancient religious text to justify the genocide of an indigenous group of people …
—
4] you regurgitate blatant lies which are used to murder and maim our own [and your own ?] innocent sisters and brothers
do you realize that ???
these are blatant lies
we are NOT using ancient religious texts at all ….
we are using healthy logic rooted in reality and experience … which you are dearly lacking ….
there is NO GENOCIDE , not in your wildest dreams
you are totally impervious to reality , totally impervious to the real meaning of the word genocide
and you have totally outsourced your own thinking to the elites , the shallow , the muslims and the antisemites
think , think , think and think …. that is the sole and proven prescription for the mental decay you are burying yourself in ….
5] the so called palestinians are mostly descendants of immigrants from surrounding arab areas , lured by improved economic prospects
generated by huge zionist investments in this area
compare arab population growth in palestine from 1860 – 1940 with arab population growth in syria , jordan and lebanon …
remember – there are no real borders between those areas
communities with same cultural characteristics , how come there is such a huge difference in population growth ?
immigration …
so why do they merit the moniker of ‘indigenous’ ????
5] the so called ‘palestinians’ NEVER had an independent country
not under caliph omar from 638 who was muslim
not under the mamelukes from 1239 who were muslim
not under the ottomans from 1516 who were muslim
not under the jordanians and the egyptians from 1948 who were muslim
why did their own muslim ‘brothers’ not grant them a country ????
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flaming:
…. And now we don’t have to move out the current Jews, one state is a viable option. The palestenians are not looking just to harm us. They want a home and rights ….
—
now you are really having me in stitches ….
have you read and listened to hamas and similar people ???
do you know what they openly say ????
you know that the choice presented to the jews is between the suitcase and the coffin ???
do you know the barbarism they enacted on october 7 is just an appetizer chas vshalom
do you know what arab barbarians are able to do ???
did you hear the true tales of the real ‘indigenous’ yazidi , of what happened to them ????
they were not even monstrously libeled as being genocidal ????
and still look at the atrocities they suffered ….
same with countless other victims of the same so called ‘indigenous’ barbarian and fickle populations ….
how stupid you get when you outsource your own thinking ….
your lack of thinking is not only sad …. it is dangerous ….
high time to wake up ….
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You’re not responding to what I asked — you’re responding to what you’re afraid I implied.
I didn’t say the Torah isn’t emet. I posed a hypothetical to ask an important question:
Should support for a modern nation-state depend on religious truth claims, or can it stand on secular ethics, safety, and shared humanity?Many Jews — religious and non-religious — support Jewish safety and self-determination without believing that ancient texts grant unlimited moral license or foreclose ethical critique.
Asking how our actions look to the world is not “outsourcing thinking.” It’s acknowledging reality: perception shapes consequences, legitimacy, and safety.
You can disagree with my conclusions without questioning my intelligence, my Jewishness, or my capacity to think.
Also without the blatant Islamophobia in your post among other problematic tones.If that’s not possible here, then this isn’t a conversation — it’s a shiur led by you.
flamingo complains why I don’t answer her questions
while she did not even attempt to answer any of my many questions I posed to her since she came onto the thread ….
where are YOUR answers , flamingo ???
—-
the answer to your question is extremely simple : it is a resounding yes
even without any ‘ancient texts’ , support for this nation state stands on principles of secular ethics, safety, and shared humanity , as they are equally applied all around the globe …
or better said … as they SHOULD be equally applied around the globe
as long as you agree to stop outsourcing your own thinking to shallow or biased people , no matter how big their following …
—-
your next statement reveals your own shallow , biased and misleading thinking ….
you say : Many Jews — religious and non-religious — support Jewish safety and self-determination … without believing that ancient texts grant unlimited moral license or foreclose ethical critique.
No religious authority , no established part of judaism believes that they are somehow granted unlimited moral license or foreclose ethical critique .
This is an utter venomous lie.
You drank deeply from the poisonous well of vile lies about the jews . You mindlessly repeat those lies .
Or you are too stupid to be blamed for your stupidity, or you are plain vile.
Under the cover of those lies , are the worst of the worst planned against my [and your ? ] brothers and sisters .
—-
you mix two very different issues , apparently without realizing …
first we have to decide for ourselves what is just , that is done WITHOUT OUTSOURCING , for sure not to biased , evil or shallow people .
second , only after we came to a conclusion about the first and totally separate of the first …
we have to take note of those biased , evil or shallow people’s propaganda and realize that the false reality they are projecting
will take on a life of their own and create a new and false reality …
your problem is that you are using the second issue to decide the first
that’s why your mind is muddled and therefore endangering your own brothers
—
all my comments about your thinking are nothing more than an honest critique
listen to this contradiction — you yourself are complaining about supposed inability of the jews to hear critique , and
about their supposed ‘foreclosure’ of moral critique …
and you yourself cannot take some honest fact based personal critique ???
it is high time for your position to ‘evolve’ … and fast …..
—-
there is no ‘islamophobia’ in my posts … not at all ….
all there is , is fact based , reality based logical analysis ….
anf if you have a problem with reality based logical analysis
then it is you who is having a problem …. a major problem ….
—-
this is not a shiur led by me …
this is a shiur led by you …
don’t forget I answered all your questions and comments , going through line by line
you ANSWERED NONE OF MINE …..
do ‘secular ethics’ allow for totally ignoring your opponents questions while receiving point by point answers on your own , and
on top of that still complaining that this is a shiur led by your opponent ???
maybe [tongue in cheek] you are relying on some ‘ancient text’ for your ‘foreclosure’ of critique …..
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.
.If you can simplify and clarify your questions it’s hard to read them between your ALL CAPS personal insults when trying to have a grounded philosophical discussion.
You continue to equate my thinking with “shallowness” “evil” “vile” and “danger”
People who equate questioning with danger usually:
Confuse safety with control
Confuse unity with obedience
Confuse certainty with morality
I ask you to consider that your worldview is being limited by your imagination. Honestly without a source I’d still have solid arguments, having outside sources that confirm genocide certainly help. But even to the naked eye the issue is blatantly awful.
I realize the Jewish people have been hurt by Palestenians, and the world as a whole. I realize they see they’re work as protecting Jews from people who want them dead. I realize this is a rational response to a people, our people, who have suffered deep generational trauma.
And I also realize that it is that generational trauma and deep fear of outsiders as well as narrow world views lacking empathy and imagination of what others lives and perspectives are like, that can prevent us from actually seeing the harm we are causing.
I’m advocating for a world where the Jewish people actually live up to our title. A light onto the nations. Not a continuation of the world’s awful dynamics. The palestenian genocide is not unique to the Jewish people. Nor is it even mostly there fault honestly I see this as a US funded project led and enabled by US support.
I hope very soon we can see the problematic abusive system we have allowed ourselves to be a part of in the name of our own safety.
have not decided …
is flamingo jewish ?
she claims she is ….
.
Hate of The Jews – A Historical Inheritance [2020 – printed in Gaza]
No Future [for the Jew] within the Nations [2008 – printed in Algeria]These are the titles of the books , published by Dr Alhazar , Founding Father and Member of Politburo of Hamas and ex Foreign Minister of the Hamas government of Gaza.
In it , the esteemed author makes several extremely popular statements. Popular with his readership , the Arabs of Gaza and the West Bank. And with the Palestine – supporting outsiders . A copy of his book was found on the ‘humanitarian’ 2010 Mavi Marmara flotilla whose travelers’ ostensible goal was nothing more than providing aid to suffering Gazan Arabs .
Within those books the following gems are to be found ….
– The Jews were killed in Germany because they helped the enemy
– All misfortunes suffered by the Jews anywhere over the generations are their own fault
– The Koran encourages the killing of Jews
– All Jews have to be driven out of Palestine
– The Jew is the historical center of evil, hated by the entire world
– The endgame is the total uprooting of the Jew , which will happen at the End of Days, may it happen with Allah’s help
——————————————————-
These are the friends of somejew , of ujm , flamingOTD and katan
These are the people who are naturally next in line to take over governance of EY , when the fervent wishes of somejew , katan , flamingOTD and ujm for the collapse of the hated medina will materialize …
The very minute the IDF stops its work , those ‘people’ are taking over ….
No one besides the IDF is prepared to suffer dead and wounded to stop those ‘people’
No outside force will risk the lives of their soldiers to confront those fanatics
This is clear to anyone not bribed by ideological blinkers ….
.
.“this is clear to anyone not bribed by idealogical blinkers”
I mean your like a tape recorder at this point. and the funniest is this is exactly what you are doing.
I understand you fear anti-semitic hatred. I understand the world hasn’t been kind to the Jewish people, I also understand that many parts of the world have been. And that stealing land and committing genocide is certainly not the only solution to stopping hatred and genoicde.
If you looked around you’d see most of the western world actually wants to make space and has made space for accepting and loving people of all faiths, pigment colors and backgrounds.
Obviously the west is not living up to its ideals right now. ICE is hunting down migrants, trans lives are at risk daily (particularly trans kids), and people from minority backgrounds face discrimination daily. Around the world we are struggling too. Our systems are far from perfect, but that does not mean we cannot work towards peace, and work together with our neighbors jewish and non-jewish alike to make a better world.
Jewish people certainly experience oppression and hatred, but currently thats NO WHERE near the level of hatred sent towards the groups i just mentioned. And of most importance and relevance to this situation, the current hatred and persecution Jews face is NOTHING compared to the persecution Palestinian residents of Gaza face daily at the hands of the “Jewish State” and funded by the US government, and enabled by the rest of the worlds powers.
ITs devastating to watch, but certainly has not dimmed my hope for creating and being part of world that actually can learn to live with each other. A world not just good for Jews, but for everyone. And I don’t think the goal of the Torah was too just protect the Jewish people. It was for the world, we were the first born but not the last. Its about time we start acting like the model nation we prapport to be. Whats currently happening is embarrassing and shameful.
For me, the first step was deconstruction my rigid biases, and actually beginning to see Non-jews as people worthy of respect and dignity. I think that level of empathy can take us as a communitty a long way.
@flamingo
my questions are not ‘hard to read’
my ‘personal insults’ are not any more ‘personal’ than yours
nor are they any more of an ‘insult’ than your comments are
if your comments are described as evil , it only is because the results of your comments
are the barbaric slaughter of my brothers in EY, which happens to be …. evil
all caps should not be an impediment to reading
and all of my questions are readily available for you to read , simply by scrolling up
they are written in simple and clear english
if you cannot comprehend them , then you should automatically be disqualified
from commenting on weighty topics like this one
—————–
nevertheless I will copy and paste the questions for you again
but with one essential request — that your answers should be the product of YOUR OWN MIND , and
not a regurgitation of what you pick up in the biased and evil media … yes …. evil , you read correctly ….
.
.
.@flamingo
1] how many innocent german children died in world war two ?
was that genocide ?
if not , why not ?
2] given that hamas – and the majority of so called palestinians supported by many millions more outside palestine,
fanatically want israel and its jewish inhabitants to literally disappear from the face of the earth
why do you describe people dying in israel’s defensive wars as dying to ‘make space’ for it ?
why are they not considered as dying to defend their own families existence ?
3] why are you blindly parroting the distortions by the biased media ?
why are you ignoring the fanatical armed men hiding in between those innocent children who are the real criminals
who are the ones who have the blood of those children on their hands ?
4] why are those fanatical men not offering the usage of their hundreds of kms of tunnels to those innocent children ?
is it because they are hoping for [!] those innocent children to be blown to bits ?
and hoping for flamingOTD to write heartwrenching ‘humane’ posts about those evil zionists ?
5] why are you prepared to be the prop and the useful idiot in the hands of those very same criminals
who are the ones who have the blood of the children from their own community on their own hands
and are counting on you to do their bidding ?
6] what happens to a jew who walks by himself into most so called ‘nongenocidal’ arab towns in the middle east ?
what happens to an arab who walks by himself into most so called ‘genocidal’ israeli towns in the middle east ?
can you give an honest reality based answer ?
after this answer — with honesty and reality , which side is the real genocidal one ?
7] anywhere between 600000 and two and a half million German civilians died during the 1940’s as a result of the Allies war against Germany .
Is that genocide ? ? ?
8] do you recognize the established fact that …. there are arab ministers , supreme court judges and MK’s in israel ?
so why do you repeat the lie that israel is racist ?
9] do you recognize the established fact that jews come from all diverse ‘races’ . brown, white, black and yellow ?
so why do you repeat the lie that israel is racist ?
10] considering the context of hamas hiding behind civilians coupled with international denial of civilians the natural option
of running away
why do the Arab and leftist hypocrites who block their escape not have their innocent blood on their own filthy hands ???
11] Were the majority of deaths civilian in the invasion of Iraq ??
Were the majority of deaths civilian in the War in Afghanistan ??
12] Why is the fact that the vast majority of deaths in gaza are civilian , any proof that israel does not target terrorists ??
is it not possible that civilians are killed because of hamas hiding and mingling with them ???
do you have real proof that this is not the case ??
13] Why does hamas not give shelter to civilians in their many hundreds kms long tunnels ???
could it be that civilian casualties is a desired outcome for them ???
14] if many millions of people would support nazism , would you fall in line , simply because that would be “the perspective of the world” at the time ????
15] compare arab population growth in palestine from 1860 – 1940 with arab population growth in syria , jordan and lebanon …
communities with same cultural characteristics , how come there is such a huge difference in population growth ?
the answer is arab immigration towards palestine … lured there to benefit from huge zionist investments ….
so why do they merit the unearned moniker of ‘indigenous’ ????
16] the so called ‘palestinians’ NEVER had an independent country
not under caliph omar from 638 who was muslim
not under the mamelukes from 1239 who were muslim
not under the ottomans from 1516 who were muslim
not under the jordanians and the egyptians from 1948 who were muslim
why did their own muslim ‘brothers’ not grant them a country ??
17] did you hear the true tales of the real ‘indigenous’ yazidi , of what happened to them ????
of the kurds ???
of the alawites ???
of the druze ????
why do you think the lot of the jews will be any better ???
we need answers based on hard reality
will repeat —— ON HARD REALITY
not based on feel good media talking points
or on
fuzzy feel good distortions
.
there you are
presented you with 17 simple reality based questions
can you honestly answer them — reality based , fact based ???
let’s see …
flamingo thinks that the jews who are threatened by genocidal barbarians are in need of some therapy
therapy which will restore their supposed lost empathy
supposed lost empathy as a result of trauma
trauma which causes supposed narrowness
and supposed reliance on supposed faulty imagination ….
.
.
flamingo has it all backwardsflamingo is in need of reality checks
reality checks regarding , not the past , but the future
what you can reasonably expect of a one dimensional state
the blood shed by those same barbarians in lebanon , in syria , in libya , in iraq , in sudan , in algeria , in yemen
all without any ‘colonialism’ , ‘whiteness’ , ‘occupation’ and any of those other false descriptions
that blood should serve as a timely reminder of what the future holds in a state governed by them ….
how blind could flamingo get , when she ignores those widespread atrocities …..
.
.
bet that flamingo is not going to answer … for the simple reason ….that there is no honest answer available …..
.
.Your response is quite telling of a person who is having their delusions challenged. Not sure if I can treat your delusional worldview over the messages on an online forum… But for anyone reading this back and forth I think theres some vital observations:
The 17-question cross-examination framed with insults and loyalty tests.
This style of argument doesn’t invite understanding, it is designed to overwhelm It relies on false binaries (agree or you support terrorism and religious extremists), moral intimidation, and the idea that empathy for civilians is treason.
I reject that frame.
One can oppose Hamas’ tactics and beliefs, care deeply about Jewish safety and human safety in general, and still question how mass civilian harm is justified or dismissed. Ethical reflection is not betrayal, it’s how societies avoid becoming what they fear. And I’m done sitting idly by as I watch the Jewish people support and cheer on a genocide.
Never again, means never again. Not just for us. For everyone.
@flamingo
you frequently complain that you cannot read my posts – they have all caps , hashem yishmor ….
repasted my questions here in an easier to read format for you
.
.
.1] how many innocent german children died in world war two ?
was that genocide ?
if not , why not ?
.
.
.
.2] given that hamas – and the majority of so called palestinians supported by many millions more outside palestine,
fanatically want israel and its jewish inhabitants to literally disappear from the face of the earth
why do you describe people dying in israel’s defensive wars as dying to ‘make space’ for it ?
why are they not considered as dying to defend their own families existence ?
.
.
.
.
.3] why are you blindly parroting the distortions by the biased media ?
why are you ignoring the fanatical armed men hiding in between those innocent children who are the real criminals
who are the ones who have the blood of those children on their hands ?
.
.
.
..
4] why are those fanatical men not offering the usage of their hundreds of kms of tunnels to those innocent children ?
is it because they are hoping for [!] those innocent children to be blown to bits ?
and hoping for flamingOTD to write heartwrenching ‘humane’ posts about those evil zionists ?
.
.
.
.
.5] why are you prepared to be the prop and the useful idiot in the hands of those very same criminals
who are the ones who have the blood of the children from their own community on their own hands
and are counting on you to do their bidding ?
.
.
.
.
.6] what happens to a jew who walks by himself into most so called ‘nongenocidal’ arab towns in the middle east ?
what happens to an arab who walks by himself into most so called ‘genocidal’ israeli towns in the middle east ?
can you give an honest reality based answer ?
after this answer — with honesty and reality , which side is the real genocidal one ?
.
.
.
.
.7] anywhere between 600000 and two and a half million German civilians died during the 1940’s as a result of the Allies war against Germany .
Is that genocide ? ? ?
.
.
.
.8] do you recognize the established fact that …. there are arab ministers , supreme court judges and MK’s in israel ?
so why do you repeat the lie that israel is racist ?
.
.
.
.
.9] do you recognize the established fact that jews come from all diverse ‘races’ . brown, white, black and yellow ?
so why do you repeat the lie that israel is racist ?
.
.
.
.10] considering the context of hamas hiding behind civilians coupled with international denial of civilians the natural and essential option
of running away
why do the Arab and leftist hypocrites who block their escape not have their innocent blood on their own hands ???
.
.
.
.
,11] Were the majority of deaths civilian in the invasion of Iraq ??
Were the majority of deaths civilian in the War in Afghanistan ??
.
.
.
.12] Why is the fact that the vast majority of deaths in gaza are civilian , any proof that israel does not target terrorists ??
is it not possible that civilians are killed because of hamas hiding and mingling with them ???
do you have real proof that this is not the case ??
.
.
.
.
13] Why does hamas not give shelter to civilians in their many hundreds kms long tunnels ???could it be that civilian casualties is a desired outcome for them ???
.
.
.
.
.14] if many millions of people would support nazism , would you fall in line , simply because that would be “the perspective of the world” at the time ????
.
.
.
.
15] compare arab population growth in palestine from 1860 – 1940 with arab population growth in syria , jordan and lebanon …communities with same cultural characteristics , how come there is such a huge difference in population growth ?
the answer is arab immigration towards palestine … lured there to benefit from huge zionist investments ….
so why do they merit the unearned moniker of ‘indigenous’ ????
.
.
.
.16] the so called ‘palestinians’ NEVER had an independent country
not under caliph omar from 638 who was muslim
not under the mamelukes from 1239 who were muslim
not under the ottomans from 1516 who were muslim
not under the jordanians and the egyptians from 1948 who were muslim
why did their own muslim ‘brothers’ not grant them a country ??
.
.
.
.
.
.17] did you hear the true tales of the real ‘indigenous’ yazidi , of what happened to them ????
of the kurds ???
of the alawites ???
of the druze ????
why do you think the lot of the jews will be any better ???
.
.
..
.
.
.we need answers based on hard reality
will repeat —— ON HARD REALITY
not based on feel good media talking points
or on
fuzzy feel good distortions
.
.
.there you are
presented you with 17 simple reality based questions
can you honestly answer them — reality based , fact based ???
let’s see …
looking forward to your point by point answers , reality based
.
.flaming, I think you start with an unrealistic assessment of current situation – it is not random, this framing exists among anti-Israeli activists that paint a picture of big powerful Israel against small hamas.
Imagine, Israel sandwiched between Switzerland and Netherlands, peacefully coexisting with them, and their only problem would be Gaza. Possibly, then, there would be a better way to deal with Hamas – most likely, close borders for weapons, move civilian population around while supplying them with food and slowly smoking Hamas out of tunnels. As it is, you might have noticed that there are several other groups/countries eager to attack Israel; partners are supporting today, stopping supplies tomorrow, etc. Under these conditions, Israel needs to prioritize defence and deterrence. In a case of a doubt, they can, and should, take the harder line.
Several weeks ago, UJM told us that he wants to dismantle
The State of Israel and give the land to the USA.But if you listen to The Neturei Karta,
they want to give the land to the so-called “Palestinians”.You know— the Phoney-stinians — the people who killed Jewish athletes
at the Munich Olympic games, and hijacked many airplanes,
and started a civil war in Jordan, and destroyed Lebanon,
and want to KILL ALL [100%] JEWS.This Neturei Karta “plan” would cause ANOTHER HOLOCAUST,
with 8,000,000 Jews in Eretz Yisrael being mercilessly massacred,
including millions of Jewish children and babies.Even if UJM was being honest when he said that,
his statement is still somewhat misleading because
it is a minority opinion among radical anti-Zionists.There is also a Halachic prohibition against giving non-Jews ownership of Eretz Yisrael.
Most American politicians — even Donald Trump, who is very pro Jewish —
would strongly oppose using American soldiers to protect Eretz Yisrael’s Jews
from relentless never-ending attacks from Muslim terrorists.flamingo is one huge copout
she falsely complains that people don’t answer her delusions
when she herself refuses to answer 17 clear and simple REALITY BASED questions
she – if she continues to refuse to answer …
is losing all credibility ….
.
.
.Lol.
flamingo refuses to answer any of the 17 simple questions
but still accuses the jews of ‘foreclosing critique’ …..
I recommend her for honorable mention in the Guinness Book of Records under the subject of “Biggest Hypocrite” …..
.
.
.@square
ujm’s proposal to ‘give’ EY to the US , is a total non starter
they will NEVER take it
they will NEVER grant citizenship to the 12- 15 million arabs and jewish inhabitants plus descendants of refugees
they will NEVER deploy their soldiers and put them in harm’s way to shield the innocent jews from the brainwashed barbarians
who relish to see masses of blood
ujm himself does’ not believe in this proposal either
ujm only mentions this as a diversionary tactic
ujm is blinded by a agadic maharal
which is totally irrelevant to our situation
and additionally, is not even halacha pesuka
as all halachik codifiers clearly paskan otherwise.
.
.
its all one big baloney .
.
.
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