August 15, 2023 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #2216405
Avirah, all of this “more temptation” stuff does not change the Halochah! Your Amerishkaiyt is so much in your bones that it is impossible to talk to you.August 15, 2023 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #2216360
N0mesorah doesn’t believe that the Rebbe is G-d. He’s a contrarian and so he says anything to stir controversy. He’s so lost he probably doesn’t even know what he believes. On the other hand Lubavichers do believe that the Rebbe is G-d clothed in human form whatever that means. A Lubavicher once explained it to me as follows:Moshe Rabbeinu was equal to all the Jews of his time.The Rebbe was the Moshe Rabbeinu of our generation and so he was equal to all the Jews who ever lived and this made him G-d. And he was serious. And Rabbi Moshe Shmei knows that what I’m saying is true. Checkmate.August 15, 2023 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #2216420AviraDeArahParticipant
Mdd, well to be fair, I’m a 3rd generation and i went to one of the most Americanishe of mainstream yeshivos… Not necessarily a bad thingAugust 16, 2023 12:23 am at 12:23 am #22164425783Participant
To Sechel. There is absolutely no place in Yiddishkeit to say the Hashem is מלובש בגוף it’s one of the י״ג אני מאמין. If it appears to you that it has a place in קבלה then that’s exactly why regular people shouldn’t be learning קבלה. Obviously קבלה and חסידות don’t contradict עיקרי אמונה and if it appears that it does then obviously you didn’t understand it properly. Let me quote to you from חב״ד ספרים which discuss this topic תניא שער היחוד דף פ״ג.l לית מאן דתפיסא ביה אע״ג דאיהו ממכ״ע אינו כנשמת האדם תוך גופו שהיא נתפסת תוך גופו משא״כ הקב״ה שאינו נתפס כלל תוך העולמות Now let me quote from דרך מצבותיך from the צ״צ דף נ״ו. וז״ל ״כי הנה אור הוא בחי׳ גילוי הא״ס ממש אלא שגילוי זה הוא רק כמו זיו השמש לגבי השמש שאין שום התפעלות ושינוי במהות השמש מהתפשטות הזיו ואינו כמשל התפשטות חיות הנפש בגוף שהנפש מתפעלת מהתפשטות זו לפי שמתלבשת ומתאחדת עם הגוף משא״כ הזיו המאיר מהשמש שאין השמש עצמה מתלבשת כלל אלא שזיוה זורח על הארץ וכמו כן למעלה אין שום התפעלות ושינוי כלל במהו״ע ית׳. So we see clearly that this has no place in קבלה or חסידות l אדרבה in ספרי חב״ד it says בפירוש that you can’t say that.August 16, 2023 1:05 am at 1:05 am #2216446
Ok how many circles do you want to go in. The Rebbe quotes a Zohar very simple, some accuse the Rebbe of explaining the Zohar in a way that they consider a”z. To me the Rebbe is very clearly just saying the same thing that it says in Zohar, anyone who says otherwise is motzi shem ra, choshed bichsharim, etc. etc.
The Rebbe never said g-d is inclothed in a body, maybe berger said that.
He never said you can pray to the Rebbe.
Simply never happened. People who can’t read, or maybe have schizophrenia say thats what the Rebbe said.
I was just trying to explain to their schizophreniac mind that they will also run into questioning all the other gedolim according to their hallucinationAugust 16, 2023 11:57 am at 11:57 am #2216573
Qwerty didn’t post that Schron goes to a Pesach Hotel. Just about making money. Which didn’t make sense to me.August 16, 2023 11:57 am at 11:57 am #2216577
After an amazing Chabad thread that the YWN Coffee Room has not seen in years, it has reached it’s inevitable conclusion.
The Rebbe made some typical chassidishe statements which are basic reinterpretations of the classic kabbalistic sources.
There are three options now.
1) Claim that the Rebbe had an agenda.
2) Attack traditional chassidus.
3) Rejecl classical kabbalah.
All three can be justified. But you have really know your stuff to attempt the first one. And we would be going against the majority of frum yidden if we attempt the other two.
It seems like the thrust really is in a fourth direction. Some posters are pushing Lubavitchers to say that these statements should be watered down to the point that they aren’t so loaded. That is not an option. Chabad will go extinct before they dilute even one bit of their Chassidishe Torah. A lot of the other major groups lighten or lost their chassidius after the war. The Rebbe made preserving chassidus a major priority in Chabad.
I hope this post is productive.August 16, 2023 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #2216604
To the group
I think that n0mesorah is right that this thread, which has been quite extraordinary has run it’s course and so it would seem that closing remarks are called for. On the Chabad side, Sechel83 articulated their view. The Rebbe, in 1962, declared that he is G-d clothed in human form. Neither Rav Moshe nor any of the other Gedolim protested and therefore we can conclude that they all agreed that the Rebbe was god. Everything was fine until that Berger fellow came along. On the anti Chabad side well nothing need be said.August 16, 2023 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #2216627
Nomesorah, again, to say that “a human is G-d” is total minus. That is the mesorah(!!) of the whole of Klal Yisroel! Stop justifying minus!! One MAY NOT just read statements from Kabbolah seforim literally and claim that this is what the Kabbolah says.August 16, 2023 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #2216662
I don’t see anybody here claiming that ‘a human is god’. If you are not going to try to understand exactly what someone is trying to say, than minus is never a problem to begin with. If you never listen to other people, what is the threat of them saying whatever kefira they want?August 16, 2023 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #2216681
sechel: “Great point, but think more a second, the teams job was to figure the mekoros for everything the Rebbe said, so what does that mean? You think the Rebbe read out of a toras Menachem?”
As I wrote in the very same post (and you completely ignored) any good rosh yeshivah who had a team of people working to find marei mekomos, could have a derasha of his printed with a few hundred marei mekomos. I would go even further and say that if I had a team of people working for me, I could have a derasha of mine published with numerous (probably not hundreds) of marei mekomos, and I am no veltz gaon by a long long shot!
And another thing I wrote (and you completely ignored) was that it is totally baseless to say that the Lubavicher rebbe knew virtually all seforim published before the war by heart. Ridiculous!August 16, 2023 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #2216683
sechel: “so from 1962 (when it was printed) no one had an issue till some am haaratzim that don’t know the above seforim saw the sicha and think it’s a”z ch”v”
During the bitter Israeli election of 1989 between Agudah and Degel, the latter published quite a lot against Lubavich, as, at the time, that was the main crux of the disagreement between the two parties. Part of what they published – and I have copies, and have checked both sources. – the atzmus melubash beguf sicha, and the same sicha printed in a later volume, with the offensive passage redacted.
If there’s nothing wrong with it, why was it redacted and never reprinted in its original form?August 16, 2023 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #2216684
sechel: “as the Rebbe brings it’s a clear yerushalmi and a Zohar)”
Can you please cite sources?August 16, 2023 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #2216689
sechel: “He never said you can pray to the Rebbe”
Please quote for all of us the passage where he said the statement that we are objecting to. You will find that he says EXPLICITLY that davening to a tzaddik is not a problem because he is atzmus melubash beguf, so he is a memutza hamechaber, not a memutza hamafsik. I may have the quote incorrect, but that is defnitiely the gist of what he said.August 16, 2023 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #2216691
“I don’t see anybody here claiming that a human is god.”
We’ll reference you to subset #14 where Sechel83 writes, “The claim that hashem and the Rebbe are one was printed in Likkutei Sichos in 1962. All the gedolim and rebbe’s had no issue till rav shach started attacking Chabad in the 1980’s.” I wrote this exactly as Sechel83 did. If you’ll notice the only two words that we’re capitalized were Rebbe and Chabad, not even Hashem. Try to talk your way out of this one.August 16, 2023 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #2216697
Ill try to make a summary of the past 14 pages:
Disclaimer im just doing this for fun, im not trying to convince anyone, and i think about 99% of rabbonim today consider 99% of chabad totally frum yiden.
Basically some claim its a christian idea to beleive moshiach can come from the dead, the ramban writes about this, and others answered its a gemara, abarbanel, sdai chedem etc, so at most its a machlokes
Some argued that a lot of chabad prays to the rebbe and think he’s g-d, and others simply say its hallucination
Some referred to a sicha where they claim the rebbe says that the previous rebbe was g-d and therefore one can pray to him
Others answered that they simply twisted the words, the rebbe is talking about asking for brachos and tikunim (which when the rebbe said this sicha in 1950, it was not as accepted as now to ask for brachos from a tzadik, some considered this a ממוצע), and the rebbe says that all jews are one with g-d (zahar) and also chassidim and the rebbe are one thing, so it comes out there is no ממוצע because its atzmus umehus how he enclothed himself in a body and brings a zohar and yerushalmi to compare it to, so 1) its not even clear to me that the body the rebbe is referring to is the previous rebbe, in fact the rebbe was speaking after the frierdiker rebbe passed away 2) the rebbe clearly compares it too a zohar and yerushalmi and clearly wants it to be understood the same as you would understand those sources. (the sicha is printed in likutai sichos vol 2 page 509 and on)
They also brought many other sources niglah and kabala that say this same idea,
The anti chabad continued to argue that the niglah and kabbalah seforim dont mean it literally but the rebbe meant it literally, and for that reason one should not learn kabala.
Chabad answered: well first why do you assume the rebbe meant it different then all the other seforim? 2) one of the things chassidus came to do was to explain kabala so everyone can learn it (including this idea is explained at length in many places in chassidus), and its not only kabbalah, its also niglah as mentioned, in fast one reading chumash sees the idea of a body terms for hashem which you end up with the same issue to explain. 3) if so, how come almost all the gedolim didn’t talk out against it, the sicha was said in 1950, printed in 1962, and it took decades for (all the big gedolim to pass away) someone (a professor) to come out against it (he did get some endorsement from a few real misnagdishe rabbanim)
The anti chabad say, that none of the gedolim ever heard of this sicha, if they would have, they would have definitely came out against the rebbe. And really many gedolim even who endorsed the rebbe only did it to be more accepted, they wrote things they didn’t mean, but told one person what they really held.
chabad answered: i see how much you hold of your gedolim, such a big problem happening in the world that chabad is openly serving a”z ch”v and bringing more and more jews to do so, and none of the gedolim cared, spoke up? Look in gemerah shabbos about the churban that the gedolim were punished for not speaking up. It also talks there about chanifa, how bad it is, so i would make a machaa for accusing reb moshe of that and also writing sheker.
Sorry if i missed any important issues, i didn’t have so much time to look thru everything, but i think i covered the main points.
I will add that i myself IF i would see anyone referring to the rebbe as g-d or praying to him, i would consider him to be serving a”z, but i to date (living in chabad communities all my life, learning in 770 for yrs, going to many many shluchim) never heard of this idea till i heard it from litvaksAugust 16, 2023 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #2216700
in my mind this whole conversation is fruitless [bar one benefit]
Habad followers have been instructed by their rebbe that in all arguments about belief with non habad , to give credence to the other side ‘less than klipat hashum’. Understandably only bedarkei noam , with ahavat yisrael. I saw it printed in the name of their rebbe . In one of their publications . So why would you suspect a bona fide sincere follower to disregard his own rebbes directive ? Whatever you say to him is ….
Tthe only benefit is to balance the argument for the uninitiated .August 16, 2023 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #2216722
hello ?August 16, 2023 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #2216731
rav shach crticized habad already in the sixties , it went public in the eighties.August 16, 2023 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #2216732
Qwerty didn’t post that Schron goes to a Pesach Hotel. Just about making money. Which didn’t make sense to me.“
Thanks so in essence QWERTY has been checkmated he hasn’t found a yeshivish person with my criteria that watches tvAugust 16, 2023 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #2216736
So now you’re backing off from your previous statement that the Rebbe himself stated that he’s god clothed in human form and all the Gedolim of that time, including Rav Moshe accepted this. Instead you’re saying that no Lubavicher holds like this and no Lubavicher davens to the Rebbe. Instead you’re blaming “some professor” for all the bad press Chabad receives. Let’s take a closer look at that “professor”. He is Rabbi Dr. David Berger. He has Semicha from YU where he graduated as valedictorian. Rabbi Dr. Berger named 8 senior Rabbis from the vaunted Oholei Torah who claimed that the Rebbe was god clothed in human form. Had he been lying he would have been sued for millions. As for your contention that no Lubavicher davens to the Rebbe, Rav Hershel Schachter, one of the world’s most respected Roshe Yeshivos stated on Dovid Lichtenstein radio program that many Lubavichers daven to the Rebbe instead of to Hashem and this is Avoda Zarah. Now I’ll ask you this, “Since you’ve backed off from your previous statements do you also agree that the Rebbe isn’t Moshiach?”August 16, 2023 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #2216703
Seems like there was an agenda .
Used to defend habad for many years , but made a u turn , in face of the developments over the years .
Still defend habad for all their qualities.
But they are definitely misguided .August 16, 2023 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #2216780
Time for elul .
הקב”ה אומר לישראל:
אני נותן לכם עשרים ותשעה, שלשים יום, אשר במשך הימים האלו, אם תנתקו עצמכם מהרגילות והנהגות הלא טובות שנהגתם עד עתה – ונס שמה. תנוסו לתוך הסדר והנהגה של אלול להשתקע שם – אזי תוכלו לתקן כל מה שלא הי’ כדבעי למיהוי עד עתה, ובמילא יהי’ למקלט מגואל הדם מכל הקטרוגים.
בתחלה תשובה מיראה, שנעשו לו כשגגות, ואח”כ תשובה מאהבה, שנעשו לו כזכיות –
תכתבו ותחתמו – לאלתר בספרן של צדיקים
ל ש נ ה ט ו ב ה ו מ ת ו ק ה.
תורת מנחם חלק ג עמוד 290
I consider my arguing a not good הנהגה. So…August 16, 2023 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #2216779
To Coffee addict
Congratulations you’ve beaten me. You can tell all your Yeshivish friends that the enemy has been defeated. Had you been paying attention to the discussion the question was whether it’s prmissible to watch TV or not. As I stated the other day, my Rov told me it’s allowed. So I win and it’s checkmate. I don’t care what Yeshivish people do because I don’t generally associate with them.August 16, 2023 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #2216778
Part of what they published – and I have copies, and have checked both sources. – the atzmus melubash beguf sicha, and the same sicha printed in a later volume, with the offensive passage redacted.
If there’s nothing wrong with it, why was it redacted and never reprinted in its original form?
You’ve mentioned this before, and it really annoys me, because if it were true it would mean that Chabad already admitted that it was wrong, which renders the whole discussion pointless.
I have the 1962, 1985 and 2021 versions of Likkutei Sichos in front of me right now, and all of them have it written exactly the same.
I’m either misunderstanding something, or your lying, or you heard it from someone who was lying, or saw a forged version.
Please explain yourself.
I’m not going to get into this whole discussion of why this isn’t avoda zorah chas v’shalom. Just as someone who holds of the Minchas Elozor, Noam Elimelech, Zohar and Gemara will attempt to understand and interpret their statements properly, while the haters can misunderstand and hate – the same is with the Rebbe.
I have demonstrated this clearly in this post:
I’m still waiting for someone to explain why it’s permissible to defend and interpret these statements, despite them sounding like AZ if taken at face value, as opposed to the Rebbe’s statements may not be interpreted.August 16, 2023 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #2216787
To Rabbi Menachem Shmei
Before we began this thread I had no idea that the idea of the Rebbe as god clothed in human form came from the Rebbe himself. All I knew about this is that Rabbi Dr. Berger said that eight Rabbis from Oholei Torah said this. The point is that you can’t accuse me of lying since it was Sechel83 who introduced the Sicha. I have never looked at any of the Rebbe’s Sichos and I plan to keep it that way. Sechel83 said that the Rebbe called himself god clothed in human form. The anti Chabad side, not just me, called this Avoda Zarah. Sechel83 realized that heade a mistake and denied saying this. That’s the truth editedAugust 16, 2023 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #2216786
So now you’re backing off from your previous statement that the Rebbe himself stated that he’s god clothed in human form… Instead you’re saying that no Lubavicher holds like this…. Rabbi Dr. Berger named 8 senior Rabbis from the vaunted Oholei Torah who claimed that the Rebbe was god clothed in human form. Had he been lying he would have been sued for millions.
This is ridiculous. Sechel never denied about G-d enclothed in a body.
Why would you prove from “eight senior rabbis” when Sechel himself just quoted it from the most senior Chabad rabbi of all – the Lubavitcher Rebbe!?
He denied your understanding of that statement, which is perfectly fine.
Rav Hershel Schachter, [stated] that many Lubavichers daven to the Rebbe instead of to Hashem and this is Avoda Zarah.
Does he mean that they go to the ohel and ask the Rebbe to intercede on their behalf to Hashem?
This is true.
Many major poskim allow/encourage this, and it has been accepted in klal yisroel for millennia, as I’ve proven once in an earlier post.
(Incidentally, on the topic of the “Dovid Lichtenstein radio program” – it should be noted that he ran a program on this topic a few weeks ago.)
Does he mean that when Lubavitchers daven shmoneh esrei, they think, “Rebbe, give us rain” instead of Hashem (ch”v)?
This is a lie, and a libel against hundreds of thousands of kosher Jews.
Whoever told Rav Schachter this slander will have to face judgment for fooling a gadol b’yisroel and using him to spread motzi shem ra on fellow Jews.
With all due respect, how many Lubavitchers has Rav Schachter even seen davening? Let alone discussed it with, so he came to such a conclusion!? I have seen and discussed davening with thousands of fellow Lubavitchers, and I can assure that these claims are completely false.August 16, 2023 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #2216795
In the previous post where I posted, a link, this is the proper link:August 16, 2023 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #22167965783Participant
To Menachem maybe you can explain how that דעה נפסדה fits with the י״ג עיקרים that hashem is not a כח in a body and is not מלובש in a body the way a נשמה is מתלבש ומתאחד בגוףAugust 16, 2023 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #2216806
To the group
So now we have a Machlokes of Chabad Poskim, According to Sechel83 no Lubavicher refers to the Rebbe as god. While according to Rabbi Menachem Shmei every Lubavicher refers to the Rebbe as god because the Rebbe called himself god.August 16, 2023 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #2216818
Menachem…, the problem is that a fair number of Lubavitchers understood it the wrong way. And it is a mess. The Gra, you know, was afraid of the Chassidim making their Rebbe into an avodah zorah. It is a tremenous michshol — not somethig to view with complacency!August 17, 2023 8:51 am at 8:51 am #2216837
n0m: “If you never listen to other people, what is the threat of them saying whatever kefira they want?”
Technicallly there can still be a problem if the follower of a min try to spread his word. Even if what they’re spreaxing is not necessarily minnus of its own accord, they are still trying to get people attached to the min himself.
Btw the above is just a point in regards to what you said in general terms. I was not davka relating it to Lubavich and atzmus melubash in a guf.August 17, 2023 8:54 am at 8:54 am #2216839
Menachem: “I’m either misunderstanding something, or your lying, or you heard it from someone who was lying, or saw a forged version.”
I’m surprised that you would accuse me of lying. I didn’t think that was your style.
At any rate, when I saw the copy of the redacted version, and I’m talking possibly over 30 years ago, I went into the local Lubavich shul and searched for the sefer that they had cited as the source. (Sorry, but I can’t find it at the moment, and as I moved house about half a year ago I may have lost it.) It was not in a regular volume of sichos, but in a blue sefer printed by Kehos publishing company. I apologize that I can’t be more precise.August 17, 2023 8:55 am at 8:55 am #2216856
Congratulations on being MO now that explains a lot!August 17, 2023 8:56 am at 8:56 am #2216857
Btw I knew that saying I checkmated you would get your blood to boil 😜August 17, 2023 8:57 am at 8:57 am #2216858
maybe you can explain how that דעה נפסדה fits with the י״ג עיקרים
Just as you can explain that all of the quotes I brought earlier in post #2213451 fit with the ikrim.
(I tried linking it before, but it kept linking the entire thread)
P.S. For anyone actually interested in the topic and is wondering, “Indeed, what did the Rebbe, Minchas Elozor, Noam Elimelech, Rabbeinu Bachya, Tanya, Yerushalmi and Zohar mean when they wrote all of these surprising statements?” –
I suggest you watch an incredible shiur from Rabbi YY Jacobson on the topic: http://www.theyeshiva dot net/8291
(Although he discusses the general topic with many quotes from gedolim throughout the generations, he indeed doesn’t explicitly quote the Rebbe’s statement. I guess so as not to turn off his litvisher audience)August 17, 2023 8:58 am at 8:58 am #2216861
he problem is that a fair number of Lubavitchers understood it the wrong way.
B”H Lubavitchers didn’t understand it wrong. Usually, the first time a Lubavitcher learns of these warped interpretations is when meeting someone who attacks him for “his views” that he never had.August 17, 2023 9:01 am at 9:01 am #2216863
So now we have a Machlokes of Chabad Poskim
I thought that the first time I answered you (in post #2216786) was fairly clear and simple.
I will try to explain one more time. If you still insist in not understanding, so be it. כל הרוצה לטעות יבוא ויטעה
Since Sechel seems to be a Lubavitcher, I doubt he denies this fact:
דאס איז עצמות ומהות אליין ווי ער האט זיך אריינגעשטעלט אין א גוף
since this is printed clearly in a sicha (as Sechel himself mentioned many times, and gave us the source in Likkutei Sichos).
What he (as well as I) does deny is your interpretation that “every Lubavicher refers to the Rebbe as god because the Rebbe called himself god.” (ch”v)
If you want to truly know what this statement means, you will look at the Yerushalmi and Zohar that the Rebbe quotes there, and you will look at all the statements that I quoted in post #2213451, and you will look at the shiur from Rabbi YY Jacobson that I just wrote in a different post.
One more time: Neither I nor Sechel are denying the truth of the aforementioned statement (דאס איז…), we are denying your interpretation and accusation.
I don’t think I can get any clearer than this, so it’s my last try.August 17, 2023 9:03 am at 9:03 am #2216883JudeParticipant
What I am learning from this thread is that the Lubavitcher Rebbe never said explicitly that he was a god, or “clothed in a human body” or Moshiach. On the other hand, he never said explicitly and publicly that he was not. He spoke esoterically and people could interpret his words one way or the other. He knew that some of his followers were praying to him and practically all of them thought that he was Moshiach. At one point he sent a directive that the chasidim should not say that he was Moshiach. Our local Chabad rabbi said “I won’t say that the Rebbe is Moshiach, but I still think that he is”.August 17, 2023 9:07 am at 9:07 am #2216906
To Rabbi Menachem Shmei
You make a good point, to wit, how can Rabbi Schachter know to whom Lubavichers daven? The answer is simple. Because of his Talmudic genius, he has Ruach Hakodesh and Malachim revealed this information to him. Similarly, you can ask how Rav Shach knew what was going on in Brooklyn. So we know that he was the Godol Hador which means he was the Moshe Rabbeinu Hador and so he had the same level of Nevuah as Moshe and this allowed him to see what the Rebbe was doing.If you think that’s ridiculous then understand what Jews think when Lubavichers claim that the Rebbe is god. Checkmate.
editedAugust 17, 2023 9:25 am at 9:25 am #2216916
To coffee addict
“Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.” The fact that you stoley checkmate line demonstrates that you recognize my superior writing ability. So thank you. As for your commitment that I “outed myself” as MO. So what. In my opinion and in the opinion of my Rabbonim MO is an absolutely valid expression of Yiddishkeit. That you disagree shows that you’re a religious bigot who thinks that Yeshivish people are better than all other Jews.
Don’t be surprised by any tactic that Rabbi Shmei uses. He has to defend his god and his false religion.August 17, 2023 9:28 am at 9:28 am #2216925
He spoke esoterically and people could interpret his words one way or the other.
He spoke in a way that his haters can misinterpret 39 years later when attacking him because he upset their campaigning in Israeli politics (1989).
Find me any gadol in history whose teachings can’t be misinterpreted to sound like kefira by those who try to do so.
I already brought the Minchas Elozor, Rabbeinu Bachya, Tanya, Noam Elimelech, Gemara, Zohar.
How about the Rambam whose haters claimed that he denied techiyas hameisim ch”v?
How about the Baal Shem Tov?
כל הרוצה לטעות יבוא ויטעה
He knew that some of his followers were praying to him
Maybe if you repeat this lie another 10 times you’ll convince us Lubavitchers that it’s true, that we actually daven to the Rebbe.August 17, 2023 9:50 am at 9:50 am #2216934
I’m surprised that you would accuse me of lying. I didn’t think that was your style.
My point wasn’t to accuse you of lying. I was laying out the only possible options, because that fact that you stated simply isn’t true.
Again, I don’t want the other readers to think that there is some sort of argument if Chabad retracted it or not.
All 13 editions of Likkutei Sichos, from 1962 till the newest one (which was completely retyped), including the blue seforim printed by Kehos (I have it right in front of me) – contain this statement word for word.
I don’t care who fabricated this story (I’m not accusing you, it could have been a misunderstanding on your part).
I care to set the facts straight.
This is a stupid thing to argue about since it’s a מילתא דעבידא לאיגלויי.
If someone doubts me, go to the nearest Lubavitcher, every Lubavitcher has a chelek beis Likkutei Sichos from any given year (usually later editions) in their house.
Open it up to page 511, and see the second paragraph for yourself.August 17, 2023 9:51 am at 9:51 am #2216933
You outing yourself as MO shows your true colors, anyone that’s to the right out you is a bigot but hey you’re perfect!
I’ve posted before that you probably find going mixed swimming is fine (which I see I’m right on)
You’re not that much different than the tzeddukim or karaim because you don’t follow the sixth chelek of shulchan aruch which is use your common sense, but I do commend you “asking your Rabbi” (just btw it’s no different than a Lubavitcher asking his rebbe is the Rebbe is moshiach or sleeping in a sukkah)
I’m happy you feel flattered that I “imitated” you just to push your buttons you should feel that way when other people make fun of you tooAugust 17, 2023 10:17 am at 10:17 am #2216943
You don’t write that often but when you do you really nail it. The Mishna on Avos warns Chachom to be careful with their words. Had the Rebbe issued clearcut statements this mess would have been avoided, but he chose not to do so.August 17, 2023 10:18 am at 10:18 am #2216942
To Coffee Addict
I hope Moshiach turns out to be MO because a bigot like you won’t accept him and you’ll miss out on all the enjoyment of Geulah. As I’ve stated I am Lower East Side Orthodox which means I follow the Feinstein Mehalech. Rav Moshe made a Shidduch for his daughter with a YU product. I assume you think Rav Moshe was a Karaite who endorsed mixed swimming.August 17, 2023 10:22 am at 10:22 am #2216941
Don’t be surprised by any tactic that Rabbi Shmei uses. He has to defend his god and his false religion.
Easy way to win any argument that you can’t answer. Turn your opponents into the devil.
Sorry qwerty, I don’t think ARSo will fall for this.August 17, 2023 10:24 am at 10:24 am #2216940
Qwerty: Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
No always is it flattery. Sometimes, the best way to attack someone is with his own strategies…
מיניה וביה אבא ניזיל ביה נרגא
אם לרמאות הוא בא, גם אני אחיו ברמאות, ואם אדם כשר הוא, גם אני בן רבקה אחותו הכשרה
כל מדותיו של הקב”ה מדה כנגד מדהAugust 17, 2023 11:13 am at 11:13 am #2216966
Had the Rebbe issued clearcut statements this mess would have been avoided, but he chose not to do so.
It was clear enough for those it was intended for. The haters will always hate.
What do you have to say for all the other gedolim I mentioned whose words could be easily misinterpreted by their opponents?
I hope Moshiach turns out to be MO because a bigot like you won’t accept him and you’ll miss out on all the enjoyment of Geulah.
Oy, Hashem yerachem. Please, take a deep breath and drink a glass of water before responding to people.
Despite all of your great superiorities that you often write about (logic, truth, writing ability, etc. etc.), maybe even you sometimes go too far?August 17, 2023 11:13 am at 11:13 am #2216975
To Rabbi Menachem Shmei
Boy do I get to you. Checkmate. Use
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