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qwerty613,
What’s the deal with you checkmating people in every post?
To Rabbi Menachem Shmei,
You might take a moment to read what Coffee Addict said. He “praised” me for consulting my Rabbi, but then dismissed what my Rabbi said because it’s like a Lubavicher asking his Rabbi if the Rebbe is Moshiach etc.. So I guess you agree with Coffee Addict that Chabad Rabbis are Treif. Obviously. you’ll say and do anything to beat me. So why is that? The answer is simple. Unlike the others in the thread who are against Chabad, I alone, don’t fall for your tricks. As I’ve mentioned I’m a doctor and over the years some Christian patients have tried to discuss their religion with me. I immediately make it clear that the subject is off limits. In the same vein when you suggest that the Rebbe said or implied that he’s god, you’re swimming in Christian waters and no rational G-d fearing Jew will go there. I couldn’t care less what the Rebbe said. Any suggestion that a human being is god is completely repugnant. Therefore I reiterate, Checkmate.
@Menachem-Shmei One second, didn’t Rav Schneerson ZT”L make some very clear cut statements saying that he isn’t Moshiach? And send angry letters to people who claimed he was telling them to cut it out?
Modern orthodox has changed dramatically since Rav Moshe’s days
Rav moshe wouldn’t marry todays MO
Get real
As a lot of posters have mentioned (on other threads)
כל הפוסל במומו פוסלYou’re the one that wants to “checkmate” Lubavitch
To 2scents
Glad you asked and I’m happy to answer. I entered the fray about 3 weeks ago. I immediately sized up Rabbi Menachem Shmei and nailed him with an unassailable argument against his Did you really think of this post as “civil responses”?Will MO Moishiach let us watch TV?
Checkmate
Menachem…, you mentioned a whole number of Chassidishe Rebbes in your list. Well, the GR”A was afraid that the Chassidim would make their Rebbes into avoda zorah.
To Moderator
Am I being punished for my honesty? So many posters lie with impunity but they get printed and they refuse to admit that they’re lying. If I could just finish my point to 2scents. Checkmate was only meant for Shmei, but Coffee Addict attacked me so I applied it to him. I routinely praise other posters, but often those comments don’t get printed.
qwerty: “Hey Jude”
You jsut proved you are MO!
I have a question for Menachem, n0m, sechel and all the other Lubavichers on this thread.
I don’t know how old you are, or what you remember pre-5754, but the official Lubavich line was that every generation must have someone who is fit to be Mashiach. So my question is, who is it in our generation?
Menachem:”I don’t care who fabricated this story (I’m not accusing you, it could have been a misunderstanding on your part).
I care to set the facts straight”Either take my word for it or don’t, but it’s not a fabrication. As I said, I got the photocopies from a friend in Israel and I myself went to look up the sources. i saw both the original version, and the redacted version. My problem is that I can’t find the copy that quotes the sefer, and I have no idea of the name of the sefer. Oh well.
To ARSo
Yes you got it. I grew up minimally religious. Only went to shul on Shabbos mornings. At that time my life revolved around sports and music. At the age of thirty I began a journey towards legitimate Torah Judaism. For several years I went sans TV thinking that I had to exorcise my previous influences. Over time I found that I can still follow sports, listen to music yet still spend most of my time learning. I am not suggesting that this is the ideal. For those who want to follow the Chareidi model I say Kol Hakovod. Unfortunately a number of posters are so mean spirited that they refuse to read what I’m saying. I accept every expression of legitimate Torah Judaism. Chabad, of course, is excluded because, as Menachem Shmei has told us, they believe the Rebbe is god.
To Yserbius
Don’t waste your time asking Shmei any questions. He started this thread by stating that he wants to have an open exchange with Torah Jews, but in fact, in the last few days he’s demonstrated that his real goal is to convince us of his belief that the Rebbe is god.
To Lostspark
If Moshiach rules that TV is Assur, I’ll immediately throw mine out. You’re trying to portray me as obsessed with the boob tube. As I mentioned last week, I learn 7 hours a day and only watch about an hour. You should ask yourself why you’re so troubled by the fact that I have a TV. My suspicion is that you(and Coffee Addict) have been brainwashed into believing that anyone who watches TV, is a Kofer ain Lo Chelek Olam Habo. That we eat pork, cheat on our wives, what have you. It’s eating you up because you realize that I’m nothing like what you’d like to believe. Checkmate.
To ARSo
I don’t think my Hey Jude line got printed how do you know about it?
Dear Arso,
I am not Lubavitch and not that old. What do you not see? The application remained the same, while time moved onward. Isn’t that the whole tumult?
Dear Qwerty,
You are rushing to judge how other posters see you. Take it easy. It is not so rough here, unless you want it to be.
Having interacted with these same posters for several years, I would say your assessments are about twenty percent accurate.
Menachem Shmei is somewhat new around here. But he is a very level headed Lubavitcher. I want him to continue posting, so please don’t chase him away.
Dear Qwerty,
There isn’t anything to talk my way out of. Nobody is thinking that any human is a god. How to understand the Rebbe’s sichos and similar mystical concepts, is not to be taken in a nutshell. I doubt it can be done online. I have spoken with many Lubavitchers and I don’t think there is a problem with their teachings. If you don’t want to take the time to study them, that is also fine.
To Rabbi Menachem Shmei
I think I’ve made my position quite clear but I’ll repeat it. I do not engage in discussion with anyone who asserts that a human is god. Chazal tell us that a judge who judges properly is a partner with Hashem in creation. Since you’re such a Maamin in these statements then you must believe that all honest judges throughout history worked in tandem 5783(or ~15 billion years ago remember I’m MO) with G-d. That would really be polytheism. How do I, a Torah Jew, understand this Chazal? We say in the davening that each day Hashem recreates the world and so an honest judge is a partner with Hashem because he acts according to Hashem’s wishes. This is a rational approach which does not tamper with the fundamental beliefs of Yiddishkeit. So for the last time don’t give me any more of your Christian proofs. I’m not buying it. Checkmate. And this time it’s final.
To n0mesorah
“Nobody is thinking that any human is god.”
Once of us needs new reading glasses. Shmei has consistently stated, in no uncertain terms, that the Rebbe is god. I can agree with you that the Rebbe didn’t mean this but that’s what his followers understood him to be saying and that’s a fact.As for my rushing to judgment against other posters. Because I was honest enough to admit that I watch TV I was accused of committing every sin imaginable. That’s not paranoia. it’s a fact. Obviously, I don’t care what they say because I checked with my Rov and he gave me the OK. This, of course, led one poster to malign that Rabbi who is Baki in Shas and Poskim.
To Rabbi Menachem Shmei
When I joined this discussion you made a distinction between crazy(Israeli) Lubavichers and normal (American) Lubavichers. I pressed you to explain what made the former crazy and you refused to answer. Instead you told me to look at your previous postings. This time I’ll return the favor and tell you to look at how many times you asserted that the Rebbe is god.
mdd, the Noam Elimelech, Rabbeinu Bachya, the Yerushalmi and the Zohar aren’t Chasidish.
qwerty, how old are you?
This entire thread is a lesson in why it’s not recommended to watch TV.
To lostspark
Duh. I’m so stupid. Must be all that TV I’ve been watching. By the way which medical school did you graduate from? I’m thinking we may have been in the same class. NOT!!!!“By the way which medical school did you graduate from?”
Modern Orthodox confirmed
To Rabbi Menachem Shmei
I owe you an apology. You never said that the Rebbe is god. No what you actually said is that the Rebbe said he’s god. But you reject that out of hand. So Mazel Tov you finally accept what I’ve been saying that the Rebbe isn’t god and isn’t Moshiach. See how easy that was. Checkmate on the Rebbe. By
To lostspark
Mark Twain said, “When you keep your mouth shut you only appear stupid, when you open it you remove all doubt.” The nerve you have to insult my profession.Which grocery do you work in loser?
To the group
I think I should make another revelation. About thirty years ago I was a frequent contributor to the Jewish Press. One day I ran into a friend and he told me that I was the single most hated person in Brooklyn. Judging from this thread it’s obvious that I have this effect on people. That’s what happens when you tell the truth.
Boomer confirmed
To Lostspark
What does boomer confirmed mean?To the group
You should learn from Rabbi Menachem Shmei to defend me from these baseless attacks. Instead you join in and defend your calumny by arguing that it’s because I’m MO. But that’s not the real reason. The real reason is that you’re intimidated by my writing skills. It’s basic jealousy. Checkmate. ByThe term “boomer” shares a similarity with the term “harry,’ if you don’t know what it is, it’s likely that you are one.
Lostspark,
How do you see that?
Qwerty,
How do you deal with your Chabad patients,
I’m looking for a new doctor and thinking of maybe taking you as my doctor.
Your superior writing skills and deep logic is definitely a plus that I’m taking in to consideration when making this important decision.On a serious note, you had me laughing in the last few posts that you wrote like I haven’t laughed in a while, and you weren’t even trying to be funny, just imagine if you were trying, maybe you have to rethink the profession that you chose- and I’m not referring to chess.
Stalemate.Querty123: If after 7 hours learning you need to relax by watching an hour of (mens’) sport on TV, that’s probably not not too bad. Just 2 possible problems:
1. Scantily clad women cheering the players and in the advertisements;
2. If your TV is available to other members of your household who may be less limited in their viewing.
Another thing: If you wish to be successful in raising the level of your learning, you need to limit your time in the coffee room.
I shall now take my own advice and sign offUjm, Noam Elimelech was. As far as the other mekoros go, were you asleep all this time? I did write that there are statements, especially in sifrei Kabbola, which can be misunderstood that way. And that’s why most people should not be learning Kabbola.
Menachem: I am not lying when I write that some Lubavitchers pray to their rebbe. They have a picture of him in their prayer book. One I know said that he had a problem in that when he prays he can’t help thinking that he is praying to the Rebbe
querty = health?
The old timers would know what I’m referring to.
I would like to stand up for Qwerty613 in a very basic fashion.
Regardless of who said what and who is quoting who, CAN WE ALL UNEQUIVOCALLY STATE THAT THE LUBAVITCHER REBBE WASN’T (AND ISN’T) G-D, AND WASN’T (AND ISN’T) MOSHIACH?
If yes, we’re all on the same team. If not, we are, unfortunately, very far apart.
LET’S CUT TO THE CHASE AND SKIP ALL THE LOQUACIOUS PLATITUDES!!
To the group
All rst
Rabbi Menachem Shmei is correct that it takes me a very short time to write these posts and I’ll tell you why. First, writing is my avocation and, so Baruch Hashem it comes very easy to me. Second, and this is more important. Unlike most of the participants my message is consistent. The only reason I spend (waste) my time writing is to expose the flaws in Chabad. It’s amazing that I can’t even tell which side half the posters are on.One post they’re anti Chabad Then they do a 180. Then they decide to go after me. As for this last statement I’ll just make one comment. Rather than spending so much time trying to prove that I’m a goy or trying to teach me how to be a better Jew, you guys should spend time looking at yourselves. The Gemara says that Hashem’s seal is Emes. So many in the group have tried so hard to demonize me, but no has accused me of lying. But quite a number of the posters have lied through their teeth in the hope that they can win the debate. Life for a Jew is about currying Hashem’s favor. Remember it’s Elul.To Litvishe Fellow
Thanks for the support. This thread has run for almost two months. The reason it’s taking so long is because the posters speak out of three sides of their mouth. The case against Chabad is simple. As Litvishe Fellow said calling the Rebbe Moshiach Moshiach, and even moreso calling him god, is not up for discussion. It’s no different than debating with Christians. Look it’s a free country. If the Lubavichers want to continue worshipping the Rebbe that’s their right but we have to make it clear that despite the many good things that Chabad does this is a “One G-d world.”
To the group
What emerged from the TV discussion is that there’s a universal visceral hatred for MO in this thread. Given that R Akiva said that Veahavta Lerayecha Kamocha is the fundamental Mitzvah of the Torah, how do you justify this antipathy?Dear Qwerty,
You said you watch TV. But nobody assumed that that is where you got your opinions from. You keep assuming that you know how people who you never met are thinking.
” Chazal tell us that a judge who judges properly is a partner with Hashem in creation. Since you’re such a Maamin in these statements then you must believe that all honest judges throughout history worked in tandem 5783(or ~15 billion years ago remember I’m MO) with G-d. That would really be polytheism. How do I, a Torah Jew, understand this Chazal? We say in the davening that each day Hashem recreates the world and so an honest judge is a partner with Hashem because he acts according to Hashem’s wishes. This is a rational approach which does not tamper with the fundamental beliefs of Yiddishkeit.”
This is not rational thinking, and it insults MO. The same as the other poster that doesn’t know that all pills had to have been ground. MO is about knowing more than just Torah. Not knowing less. I think a lot of posters use the MO label as a ‘no questions allowed’ shield.
One of the amazing things about being human, is that we can consciously perceive God. That goes beyond our instinctive sense of the God-force. Justice in the Torah (Beginning of tomorrow’s parsha.) is about being aware of all the factors et. It requires extreme awareness to every detail. And bringing it all to a just conclusion. Which is the same process as bringing the world into existence. Since Hashem get’s no benefit out of the physical existence of things, Hashem’s purpose in creation must be purposeful outside of the physical itself. Justice is such a purpose. Proscribing mishpat as per The Torah is achieving the very same purpose Hashem set out to do.
It is very strange that you called this polytheism and Chabad bothers you. You are giving off a strong vibe of anti theism. Like, any belief beyond what we can explain through a purely human/rational/physical perspective, is untrue/idolatry/silly.
I hate to tell you, that you seem less rational than the median Chabdtzker. There is so much beyond the human perspective, that it would be easier to say that everything In know is a lie and embrace nihilism.
To n0mesorah
I see. So what you’re saying is that my belief in one, all knowing and all powerful G-d is irrational. But to believe, as Chabad does, that a human being is god, or to believe in polytheism is rational. Maybe you’ve been studying too much Kabbalah or maybe you just enjoy being an annoying fool. Come on dude even your Rebbe, Menachem Shmei, conceded to my superiority. Checkmate and peace out.
“Qwerty = health?
The old timers would know what I’m referring to.“
Not in a million years
Health is more mature
Dear Qwerty,
I was pointing to your explanation of judges as partners in creation. Nothing to do with Chabad on that.
The ideas of rationalism that you posted, equate to weak scholarship and nothing else. It is not in any philosophical tradition. And is the opposite of chazal that believed intense scholarship to be the only worthwhile tradition of intellectual studies. You did nothing to explain how a judge can be a partner in creation. All you did was bring one source that creation is ongoing.
Rational belief systems take years to develop. I have been debating theology with big minds since before my bar mitzvah. I still don’t think my belief system is rational. Your system seems to be to only focus on the rational and deny everything else. Denial is the opposite of belief. So I don’t see your thinking as rational at all. It is irrational to reject whatever you don’t understand.
It would only be polytheism if we would deify judges on the basis of that statement. If you know what it means to really ‘deify a god’, than you would know Chabad does not do that with their Rebbe. At least not yet. And I maintain that it is not our problem until they cross that line. It is a Chabad issue, and the secret is that every group has this or a comparable issue.
Don’t point out to me messianics/heretics/crazies that can be found in every group.
I gave three options to continue this conversation. You didn’t pick a lane. What is wrong with the sicha that is the cause of this whole thread.
1) The Rebbe had an agenda.
2) Taditional chassidus.
3) Classical kabbalah.There is no shame of not having enough background to really understand this controversy. The only ones who think it is about the basics are the ines who claim that everyone has to be Chabad. (And the anti Chabad crowd that thinks they can keep up with a Chabad Bochur in these teachings.)
To Coffee Addict
Is that the best you can do? Use an insider’s reference to insult me. I thought sure you’d answer my MO challenge but your silence speaks volumes. You obviously agree that being MO is perfectly valid and Sunday you’ll go online to price 90 inch TV’s. Checkmate
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