Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher

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    So conclusion on the TV seems to be that it may be OK for some. I would just quibble with the rationale: it is not like matiring drugs to an addict, but simply acknowledging that a mature person who watched it for 60 years and maybe even knows how to extract information from it l, can continue watching it. Same in this generation, an yid who works in politics or stock market may get a eter to watch Bloomberg terminal and wsj …


    Menachem: When Lubavitchers pray, you do not know what they are thinking (unless you are also a prophet הגם מנחם בנביאים) any more than I do. I go by what one of them said about himself and the fact that so many of them keep a picture of their Rebbe in their prayer book.

    Menachem Shmei


    I asked you this question several times, but haven’t received a response, so I’ll ask it a different way:

    You seem very strong that the statement “דאס איז עצמות ומהות אליין ווי ער האט זיך אריינגעשטעלט אין א גוף
    ” is most definitely AZ, and it’s impossible for there to be any alternative explanations.

    My question is, what if I were to say:
    “Hashem took the four letters of His holy name (הוי’) and garbed them in a hat and kapoto, and this is the Rebbe…”
    Or: “Who is the face of י-ה-ו-ה? The Rebbe.”
    Or: “When the posuk says that Hashem is in His holy chamber, this refers to the Rebbe when he’s in shul”
    Or: “How can the Rebbe heal people if he is mortal and only G-d can give life? Since a tzaddik is one with G-d, he has the power of infinity since his life is Hashem’s essence, therefore he can give life to a sick person.”

    Would you also call this AZ?
    And if not, why not?


    To Always
    I’d just make one point. My Rov didn’t give me a heter. What he said is that there’s no problem at all because I basically just watch sports. But if you don’t have a TV keep it that way. It can be addictive. But the CR can also be addictive.

    To Menachem
    As I’ve clearly articulated, I will not get involved in any discussion about a dead Jew being god. I think you’re a dec
    ent fellow so Hashem should have Rachmanus on you.

    Yechi Hamelech

    Yes your absolutely right and, as a Lubavitcher, I can personally admit that I almost always daven exclusively to the Rebbe; whenever saying Hashem’s name, I quickly glance to my Rebbe picture taped to my siddur, and when davening in 770 I’m always sure to face the Rebbe’s balcony instead of the Aron Kodesh. It’s a shame all you Chabad haters can’t come around to our unique and correct form of avoda. Real shame….


    Regarding davening to the Lubavicher rebbe, I believe there are some who do.

    And I remember an article that appeared in Beis Moshiach many years ago which said that since the rebbe can decree and Hashem will fulfill his diecree, and since if Hashem decrees the rebbe can annul that decree, therefore (and to the best of my knowledge I’m quoting the article word for word, because I found it both amazing and disgusting at the time) “Who Elokeinu? Who Avinu? Who Malkeinu? The rebbe melech hamashiach, that’s who!”

    And to add a little snippet, I know someone who says (to be honest i haven’t seen him for some time so maybe he doesn’t anymore) “Baruch the Rebbe” instead of “Baruch Hashem”, and “Thank the Rebbe” instead of “Thank G-d”.

    So maybe nearly all Lubavichers don’t equate their rebbe with Hashem, but there are certainly those who do.


    “you never explained how you knew about my Hey Jude remark since that post wasn’t printed”

    It was certainly “printed”. And I’m not a mod. I have been edited too in the past.


    So HaRav Moshe Feinstein accepted Rebbeinu Tam Tefillin that which were written by ChaBaD softer under the strict supervision of the Rebbe as requested.

    I guess you know more than he did.


    qwerty: What is your response to what I posted on the previous page of what Rav Moshe Feinstein wrote against television?

    ☕️coffee addict

    Something tells me we’re not going to see qwerty that much anymore

    yankel berel

    I am a proper black hatter but admire your courage and honesty.
    Have a look at the Boston University School of Theology . Their website ,where they compare habad theology to lehavdil other religions in their beginners faze . Google it.
    Eye opening .


    To ARSo

    Could you tell me where the Hey Jude comment can be found? I will certainly admit my error.

    To moderator

    My apology. I had in mind to tell you not to edit or censor any defamatory remarks made against me, but I didn’t actually send that. My bad.

    To Lostspark

    I assume that your point is that Rav Moshe knew that the Rebbe declared himself god in 1962 and not only did he say nothing but he endorsed the idea when he accepted the Tefilin. Let me make this perfectly clear. Nobody that I’ve spoken to has ever heard about the 1962 sicha. And that most definitely includes the Feinsteins.I only became aware of it thanks to this thread.

    Menachem Shmei

    And I remember an article that appeared in Beis Moshiach many years ago

    I assume that you were not a avid reader of Beis Moshiach. Probably, the way that you know about the idiotic article is because David Berger made a big deal about it (he mentions it at least three separate times in his book).

    “Beis Moshiach” was established as an anti-establishment magazine in the 90s by some people who felt that Kfar Chabad magazine (the official chabad magazine for decades) wasn’t radical enough for them.

    Nowadays, Beis Moshiach has become a bit more mainstream (while still very meshichist), and they would never print such an article today.

    The very fact that David Berger had to bring all of his “proofs” from various marginalized and anti-establishment material (such as Beis Moshiach, as well as from “Sichat Hageula” which was created to compete with the mainstream “Sichat Hashavua” etc.) – most of which wouldn’t dream of printing those statements today – shows how much this is accepted in Chabad…

    Interestingly enough, after David Berger mentions this article several times in his book, he points out (in the appendix) that the article’s author later retracted what he said, and in his later works he “vigorously denies that G-d can be a human being.”

    I know someone who says… “Baruch the Rebbe”

    I can’t deny that you know someone like this, but I do find it ironic that as a Lubavitcher who meets thousands of other Lubavitchers from many different groups (including some very radical “meshichists”) I’ve never met someone like this.

    Maybe the Lubavitchers who believe this are afraid to share their views with other Lubavitchers for the fear of being ostracized or something, which again shows how much this is accepted in Chabad…

    Menachem Shmei

    As I’ve clearly articulated, I will not get involved in any discussion about a dead Jew being god.

    I don’t think you understood my post.
    My point was showing you that there are statements from many other widely accepted Torah sources that may seem radical or ch”v AZ at first glance without proper background.
    Closing your ears and saying “I can’t listen to this gadol because something he said sounded like AZ to me” is very קליינקעפלדיק.


    P.S. Since some people here are indeed a bit קליינקעפלדיק, and especially naïve about Lubavitch – I feel the need to point out the obvious:
    It seems to me that Yechi’s post is sarcasm.
    Just putting it out there to set the record straight.


    To the Lubavichers

    Some years ago Rabbi Daniel Mechanic spoke in our Shul. Je had the opportunity to go to Hollywood and meet Kirk Dou
    glas, Jason Alexandwr and Larry David. He told them
    the following,”I can’t prove that there’s a G-d but if there is boy will you guys be in trouble.” I can’t prove that the Rebbe isn’t god, but if I’m right, boy are yoj guys in trouble.


    Menachem, why was west coast chabad leader shlomo cunin not worried about publicizing his belief that “the rebbe runs the world,” which is on video? He’s “mainstream ” as far as i can tell. No one assembled at his speech reacted in surprise either.

    I think you might be part of a small group of Lubavitch; it seems you’re unaware of what outsiders have witnessed, myself included.


    To Yankel Berel

    Thank you so much for your comment. I really don’t understand the vitriol coming from the radical right wingers in this thread. At no time have I suggested that MO is the ideal, nor have I criticized any Kol Koreh against TV. I merely said that my Rov, who’s an enormous Talmid Chacham and he’s a Feinstein said it’s ok for me to watch. He didn’t give me a Heter that would mean it’s Asur but he made an exception. I think these Yeshivish extremists hate me because they’ve been brainwashed into believing that all MO’s are idiotic, Am Aratzim and apikorsim, Ifrighten them because I don’t fit their cookie cutter mold.

    To ujm

    Read what I wrote to yankel berel for your answer. If you have a problem go toTJ and ask the Feinsteins.


    @nomesorah thanks, necessity creates brevity- for me.

    @5783- looks like you have a highly complex post trying to insinuate that Chassidus doesn’t consider any Jew directly from Atzmus (which I haven’t gotten a great look at yet and would probably involve sharing chapters of derech mitzvosecha which no one wants) and since I’m probably not as learned as you- I’ll let The Rebbe speak for himself.

    Direct quote sefer hasichos II 5751, p605, bottom of footnotes:
    ) וע”ד המבואר לעיל (ס”ה) בנוגע לישראל. אלא שבישראל, הרי מציאותם גופא הוא (כביכול) העצמות, משא”כ כח העצמות בעולם (ראה לקו”ש חי״ב ע’ 75. סה”ש תשמ”ח שבהערה 56).

    You’re welcome to look up these fns


    @cs look at my full post first before attacking I did say that every yid was once נכלל in עצמות. I just explained that once it comes to this world the neshomoh is not נכלל any more not even the neshomoh of a צדיק.


    5783- just reading further your previous post- firstly I’m sure The Rebbe knows Tanya better than anyone else. bring the mimale makom of his predecessors etc. So you can look up the references above to see how it
    all goes.

    Secondly I’m really not that learned, so I’m sorry I cannot give a complete succinct on one foot answer, but according to what I’ve learned in derech mitzvosecha- shoresh Mitzvas hatefilla- (sorry there’s49 chapters- I’m in the middle so far, but probably around 10) I remember that Hashem is one and there’s no levels, just different expressions of His Oneness- just like I might decide to give (chessed) or not to give (gevura) but ultimately it’s me deciding and doing whatever- so too everything from above Atzilus down through Atzilus etc is Hashem Himself using different forms of revelation/ expression. But it’s all Hashem which is why we say Keil referring to Hashem as He is kind- and not davening to the midda of chessed in Atzilus itself which could be ע״ז ח״ו. ע״ש

    Menachem Shmei

    why was west coast chabad leader shlomo cunin not worried about publicizing his belief that “the rebbe runs the world,”

    This is definitely a mainstream Chabad statement, I won’t argue with you on that one.

    I don’t think he meant it in the way that you’re taking it.
    Honestly, I’ve seen people rail about this for years in the CR, while the statement doesn’t seem so problematic to me (as opposed to the “Who Elokeinu” line, or if he would have said that he “creates the world” or the like).

    Rabbi Cunin obviously isn’t saying chas v’shalom that the world isn’t in Hashem’s hands.
    He literally says 30 seconds earlier “דער אויבערשטער וועט העלפן that we will have gevaldike nissim…”

    With his “runs the world” statement he seems to be saying that being that they are the Rebbe’s shluchim, doing his work, the Rebbe takes a level of achrayus over them, and hopefully the world will see that the tzaddik protected them (unfortunately, we weren’t zoche to nissim).

    There is an idea of tzaddikim having a level of control and responsibility for what happens in the world (given to them by Hashem).
    This is the idea of צדיק יסוד עולם – that his zechus protects the world and keeps it going.

    There is a vort in Midrash Talpiyos, brought in many chassidus sforim (Kedushas Levi, etc.) on the Gemara כל העולם ניזון בשביל חנינא בני:
    מכאן יראה מעלת הצדיק לפני הקב”ה, ושמסר העולם ברשותו ושיעבד לו לעשות כל רצונו כו’. והטעם שכיון שהעולם נברא בשביל הצדיק וכולם נבראו לצוותו כמאחז”ל, לכן מסר הקב”ה כל העולם בידו ושיעבדו תחתיו לקיים כל מה שיגזור…
    It goes on to say that if only everyone in the world knew this, that the world is in the hands of tzaddikim, they would give the tzaddikim tremendous honor.

    I think that is his point. The hope that the people of the world will recognize that they’re under the reshus of the tzaddik.


    Menachem, there are many things in medrashim that we don’t understand; this is a great example. The rambam rules that if one believes that Hashem gave over command of a part of the world to a malaach, or a kochav, or anything else, he is an oved avodah zara. That’s halacha lemaysoh. Thinking that Hashem gave over fontrol of the world to a tzadik is the same thing.

    As to why cunin mentioned Hashem later, i think he betrayed his true belief the first time, which you said is mainstream anyway, but there’s another, even worse possiblity, that he simply uses Hashem and the Lubavitcher rebbe interchangeably r”l.

    Tzadikim daven to Hashem and their zchusim protect us; that’s not controversial at all, but it has nothing to do with being under the dominion of a person. Hashem is the only one who has dominion.

    What I’d venture to say about the medrash is that tzadikim are a merkava for Hashem, as the tanya explains in perek….2? I don’t remember but it’s in the beginning. They subjugate themselves so much that they are in constant sync with the ratzon Hashem; their ratzon reflects the ratzon Hashem. So it’s Hashem making the decisions but the tzadik acts like a figurehead ruler; it looks like he’s in charge, but really he’s just being gozer what Hashem wants either way.

    But that’s not something that “the world will see,” it’s an esoteric concept. When cunin said that the world will see that the Lubavitcher rebbe runs the world, he’s saying it’s a form of giluy Shechina r”l, the kind of thing we daven for by saying vehaya Hashem lemelech etc…we want kovod shomayim to be on full display for the world, that they should all know that Hashem runs the world.

    Chabad seems to want the world to know that their rebbe runs the world; goyim should realize that Hashem exists and they should serve Him, not a person. Whatever concepts there are about how tzadikim work in shomayim has no bearing on that at all.

    yankel berel

    “….The hope that the people of the world will recognize that they’re under the reshus of the tzaddik.”
    This is terrible . The Baal Hatanye was not Nosi HaDor . Nor was the Baal shem Tov . None of them were called by that title .
    This is a RECENT Habad appellation to their leader , putting him above everyone else . They are trying to acclimatize all of us , our [gullible] minds into slowly accepting his so called “malchus” .
    He is what he is . the leader of the habad chassidim .
    That is an accurate reflection of reality.
    The rest is hyperbole or propaganda .
    Or Better said – both .

    yankel berel

    No one has explained the “constant glitching” of Habad theologically . Since the last rebbe took the mantle of leadership, that is . It seems like there was a constant ‘probing’ of the temperature , how far one can go , and still be accepted [by the chassidim and mainly] in the wider orthodox community. So what we ended up with was a sort of gradual ‘Climate Change’ .
    slowly [and surely] the public was conditioned to accept one ‘chidddush’ , preparing the way for the acceptance of the next one.
    Reminds me – lehavdil – of the gradual Judicial Revolution by the Israeli Supreme Court from 1992 onwards [, with apparent success].
    If they would introduce their ‘end chidush’ at the beginning , they would be greeted by howls of outrage .
    But over the years the public’s mind was conditioned , step by step.


    To add to Menachem’s post, in Tanya perek Beis it explains that all neshamos are one body and receive everything from Hashem through the “head” (Tzaddikim/ Rebbes) Neshamos.

    For another context, The Rebbe was able to tell an Israeli member of the army the accurate number of hour many soldiers had died on a recent mission (different than the official number given to the public.) when later asked how he knew, he said every Neshama coming into or leaving this world passes through his room…


    “The Rebbe runs the world…”

    I’m sure no one here would have a problem with the statement Bibi runs EY… it’s the same thing. Limited decision making (as per Hashem allots) as a messenger of Hashem.

    That said, I personally don’t make such statements as i never say The Rebbe physically in this world, and I don’t see how it all “works” today (although I definitely see many requests “fast tracked” to Hashem, and the brachos brought down, as explained in derech mitzvosecha that when one knows how to present his request to Hashem it’s like asking the king in his treasury for money, as opposed to when he’s in his war room, which takes more zechusim etc, and The Rebbe is my best foot forward so to speak because were one Neshama). But Rabbi Cunin, who saw these things physically, does feel comfortable to say that, and it’s not an issue unless someone outside makes it one.


    The obvious difference between a politician and a tzadik with regards to how they are Hashem’s messenger is that a politician likely thinks his plans and actions on behalf of the country are his own cvs and nothing to do with Hashem although לב מלכים ושרים ביד השם, whereas a Rebbe is completely batul to Hashem and has no ulterior motives. Hashem’s light/ plans etc just shine through him because there’s no sense of a separate self… and this is the true metzius of a yid- to exchange his yeshus for bitul and thereby become/ achieve much greater than he could ever be stuck in his yeshus


    To the group
    In this thread too many of the participants try to impose their opinions on others. Obviously, we have the anti TV”ers who want me to admit that I’m not a legitimate Jew because I partake of that “vice.” Then we have n0mesorah and Menachem Shmei who want me to study the sugya which “proves” that the Rebbe is god. I harbor no delusions about getting anyone to change. Rather let’s simply accept the fact that the Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe is god and so there’s no point in continuing to argue.

    Menachem Shmei

    Menachem Shmei who want[s] me to study the sugya which “proves” that the Rebbe is…


    You saying that I’m trying to prove to you that the Rebbe is … is like if I were to say that you’re trying to convince us to watch TV.

    Menachem Shmei

    in Tanya perek Beis it explains that all neshamos are one body and receive everything from Hashem through the “head” (Tzaddikim/ Rebbes) Neshamos.

    For all those who get nervous from chassidus seforim, here is an incredible Chasam Sofer (שו”ת או”ח סי’ קסו):

    He explains that according to the Maharal, one shouldn’t ask malachim to bring his tefillos to Hashem (doing so is “קטנות אמונה חלילה”), since this is only necessary for a human king, but Hashem accepts all of our tefillos directly no matter how low we are.

    But, the Chasam Sofer continues, a tzaddik is different. All Yidden are one body with one soul. When one Jew is in pain, it affects everyone.
    A poshute Yid is compared to the foot, while the tzaddik is the head. It only makes sense that when the foot (i.e. a Yid) is in pain, he asks the “head” (tzaddik) to daven for him, since it’s more appropriate for the head to enter the King’s chamber than the foot.

    דרך להעמיד מליץ בין מלך להדיוט כשאין ההדיוט חשוב וספון לפני המלך או אינו יכול להטעים דבריו כראוי ויען ישראל לפנים ממלאכי השרת ואינם צריכים מליץ לפני אוהב’ ית”ש והוא מקבל בסבר פנים יפות אפי’ בלשון עלגים וגמגו’ אם כן המליץ הלז אינו אלא קטנות אמונה חלילה אך כל ישראל שותפים וגוף א’ ונפש א’ וכשא’ מצטער גם חבירו מרגיש ועמו מצער ועד”ז המתפלל על חברו צריך שיחלה עצמו עליו פי’ שיראה כאלו גם הוא חולה וכיון ששניהם בצער טוב יותר שיכנס הראש משיכנס הרגל ע”ד משל הת”ח הוא הראש והמצטער שהוא עתה שרוי בדין הוא בבחינת רגל וקצת נזוף טוב להכניס הראש כיון ששניהם בעלי דברים ולא כמליץ בעד אחר


    To Menachem Shmei

    Your latest commdnt is totally disingenuous. You can’t de y that you amd n0mesorah on numerous occasions told me and others to study the Sugya in question. In contrast, i clearly syated that I’m not endorsing TV watching and I’m not challenging the Psak. All I said is that the Psak is not absolute. As a moshol Rav Moshe was strict regarding Eruvin. Other Poskim allow making an Eruv in se areas that Rav Moshe forbids. I follow Rav Moshe but I would never question someone who takes tbe more lenient view. Checkmate. That one is on the house. Remember it’s not personal. It’s been fun sparrimg with you, necause I like you
    Happy new year. Sorry I forgot your RH is in December. By


    Menachem, I have never read Berger’s book and I saw the “Who Elokeinu?” quote in Beis Moshiach itself.

    The fact that Beis Moshiach had a decent enough following to allow its continued publication it its radical form shows what I was trying to prove, to wit that there are Lubavichers who believe that their rebbe is G-d and who daven to him. Just as the person who says “Barch the Rebbe” believes that his rebbe is G-d, and, I can only assume, davens to him.

    I did not say that these people are the majority, and neither as far as I remember did Avirah. Just that some do, which I believe you denied. Or perhaps it was someone else who did. It makes no difference.

    As to Shlomo Cunin, all the justification is unacceptable. He said that the Lubavicher rebbe runs the world, and he doesn’t. Note, he did not say “tzaddikim” he said “the rebbe”. That’s not the same as all the justifications that you and others have given.

    I myself heard a few months ago when I was on a trip abroad from a Lubavicher mashpia that when the Baal Hatanya says (excuse me for not remembering the exact quote or citation) that all the shefa comes through tzaddikim (or something like that – my apologies once again) he said tzaddikim in the plural only because he was being modest, but what he actually meant was that it all comes through him alone. And that therefore “in our generation” it’s only via the rebbe.


    Yankel Berel had two posts which I found interesting. The first was about the appellation Nosi Hador, which, YB argued, is a new and non-existent title that Lubavich uses to show that their rebbe was/is above all others. I have argued at lenght the exact same thing in the past on another thread in the Coffee Room.

    It is very much in line with their ludicrous statement – again, I’ve heard this one many times – that when other chassidim say stam “the Rebbe” the mean the Lubavicher rebbe unless they specify a different title.

    The second post which I find interesting is his explanation how Lubavich managed to get so far off the track by “testing the waters”. I don’t know if he’s right, but it is certainly worth looking into.


    Cs, a better comparison would be saying that golda meir runs israel from the grave; saying Netanyahu runs israel or that biden runs rhe US is speaking of the derech hateva state of things, same as saying a father is head of a household…. Hashem is the true source, but it looks like these people are in charge.

    But nothing looks as though the Lubavitcher rebbe is in charge of the world, and to think so would be to say that Hashem put him in charge, which is assur al pi halacha.

    And if cunin meant something like the above explanation i gave, or what you’re saying, why would the whole world have to know that? Doesn’t cunin and chabad prefer that the whole world know that Hashem exists and runs the world? Isn’t that our job?

    Or is your job to spread awareness of the Lubavitcher rebbe and his vision?

    Sounds more like the latter.


    To CS
    So every Jew that dies passes thru the Rebbe’s office at 770. I see so now the Rebbe is god and Malach Hamaves.


    I have to admit that qwerty that was a good one.

    yankel berel


    yankel berel

    Thanks .
    Btw. When you think about it – the ‘double language’ employed [numerous times] when discussing the Shver [Frierdiker Rebbe] and their present Rebbe, serves the same purpose .
    A hunch only , have no proof for it .
    But there is a clear pattern .


    In the month of elul , the king – g-d comes to the field and is available to be approached – get closer to him, ask their needs- more than the rest of the year, when more preparation is needed. We say ברכנו אבינו כלנו כאחד, and many similar ideas say in torah that hashem likes when his children are one and love each other, and he blesses them, answers their requests etc .
    A simple example: when your child comes to you and asks to buy him a toy, so if he’s coming straight from beeting up his brother and calling him derogatory names, you may not be as exited to fulfill his request vs if he is acting nicely with his brother and helping him out, giving him compliments and also inside really looking at the good in him and loving him
    Just reminding everyone of the famous Torah of the baal shem tov (mentioned in בעל שם טוב על התורה פרשת מצורע ובכ”מ) that any bad one sees in another, hes just looking at a miror – himself)
    P.s. as i wrote before, i backed off of this stupid argument. So im not answering any attacks. This post i feel is better.


    I don’t know where it is written, but it is said that there are 36 Tzaddikim in each generation. There is also the idea that צדיק גוזר והקב” ה מקיים. So why should we believe that there is only one צדיק in each generation, and he (or she?) must be none other than the current Lubavitcher Rebbe? For example, why did the חפץ חיים not qualify?


    Avira- golda Meir isn’t running anything from the grave- whereas if you’ve been to the ohel of the Rebbe, you’ll see all types of Yidden (not just Lubavitchers- yea I’ve been many times) with all kinds of reasons they’re coming, and his impact is even farther reaching than in his life (many more shluchim went out after gimmel Tammuz than before).

    But yah, I don’t get exactly how it “works” because I’m not The Rebbe and don’t see spiritual workings etc. I just know it does because I see it


    Jude- there were many Tzaddikim in pre war Europe outside of lubavitch. Lubavitch doesn’t believe in excluding others from being leaders and even Tzaddikim in klal Yisrael. The Rebbe met with, and highly respected, many admurim/ Sephardic chief rabbi/ etc etc titles.

    Just happens to be that I don’t hear of any “Tzaddikim of Tanya” Today outside of the Rebbe, who by the way saw yidden who came to him from all streams of Yiddishkeit- not just lubavitch in case you were wondering

    (Just cuz you’re gonna ask- yea there is only one nossi hador- nossi as in Neshama klalis of the gen, sorry it’s not popular… every stream in Yiddishkeit has something special and unique they contribute)


    Truth is, there were people who, from there description, were Tzaddikim too, post war such as the Baba Sali, the Gerrer Rebbe ( who sensed things with ruach hakodesh) (I think it was the Gerrer Rebbes, if not than another, not the point)

    I wish I heard of more Tzaddikim today, but in light of The Rebbe telling us that the responsibility to bring Malach has passed on to the individual men, women and children from the Tzadik etc, shortly before the Rebbes stroke, it makes sense…

    yankel berel

    For thousands of years – since matan torah – we had one thing and one thing only- in our public domain. Nigleh . Even though Nistar is an integral part of the torah , it was not in the public domain . this started to change from the time of the publication of the Zohar , the earlier Mekubalim, the Ari and his disciples , but was mainly popularised since the advent of the Baal Shem and his talmidim .Now i want to posit a theory which may get some of you up in arms , but I think may be correct.
    The reason why the Baal Shem [and disciples] popularised it ,was to rejuvenate the Avodat HaShem of its learners , to bring a fire , a life into them . Which was lacking previously . In which they succeeded.
    So the purpose of that limud was not as a kiyum of mitsvat talmud torah and yediat hatorah, rather for its EFFECTS ON ITS LEARNERS
    But not in order that they should become experts in the ‘Dak al Dak understanding’ of Nistar in the real , true and accurate sense , like klal yisrael was in limud nigleh for all the centuries since matan torah.
    Habad was the only one which took it a step further . The early habad Rebeim advocated for their followers to delve into Nistar as close as possible to the real ‘dak al dak understanding ‘.
    But that was , in my humble opinion at least, also only in order to further their Avodat Hashem .FOR ITS EFFECTS ON ITS LEARNERS, For exactly the same reason as the other talmidei baal shem .
    What followed, when the generations passed, was , the emergence of an ‘illusion’ in habad that they do have a true and accurate dak al dak understanding of nistar , of its terminology , of what its words really mean , in the EXACT SAME WAY klal yisrael did for the last 3333 years in nigleh. Nigleh ,which was not only learned for its results on the learner , but for a clear absolute understanding of the torah
    Therefore , considering this background , it is much easier in habad to use all types of nistar for ‘proofs’ for any outlandish new theory one would want to advance , convinced as they are that they are true conveyors of the accurate understanding of nistar .
    They [and we] should remember that the true purpose of its limud was meant FOR THE EFFECTS ON ITS LEARNERS , not for a true and foolproof accuracy, which can afterwards be used to try and be medame milsa lemilsa , etc. because the true and accurate understanding remains elusive even if explained and packaged in the nicest and most appealing wrapping paper .
    I think that this is a fault line between habad and the rest of klal yisrael.
    Not the only one . One of the fault lines.


    Cs, you’re not addressing why cunin would want the whole world to know about this esoteric chasidishe concept, when they are still unaware of the existence of and the dominion of Hashem in the world.

    As a shlucha, do you want the world to be full of tue knowledge of Hashem and His kingdom over everything, or do you want the world to know the name of a particular chassidishe rebbe who lived in the 20th century and who is long deceased, even if he davens for people who go to his kever etc…? Maybe you want both, but why did cunin say that when there will be nissim, the whole world will know that the Lubavitcher rebbe runs the world? Wouldn’t nissim show the world that Hashem runs the world?

    So either he uses the two interchangeably, or he is more concerned with people knowing about his rebbe than Hashem. There’s really no good way of understanding cunins words without him being guilty of some sort of egregious hashkafa…maybe you’ll say he just misspoke; but why didn’t anyone around him care when he said that?

    And who misspeaks about something as enormous as Hashem running the world?

    Perhaps overexposure to chasidus and kabalah can have a deleterious affect on people…. that’s about the best case scenario i can think of in defending cunin, if I would be inclined to do so.


    Qwerty is behind the times. Not the office, ohel

    yankel berel

    1]Question remains – Baal Hatanya is not called Nosi Hador . Neither is the Mitteler . Nor the tsemach Tseddeq. Not the Rashab.
    Not the Habad Rebbeim from the other dynasties . Niyezin and Liadi etc.
    2] many people coming …. is not an answer to anything. I know many people following many things which not necessarily are right and/ or correct ….

    yankel berel

    Hello ….


    To Always
    By all means take your best shot at me, but at least let me understand your putdown.

    Yankel Berel

    You’re a breath of fresh air for this thread. I’d like to piggy back on to some of your points. Shmuel Butman repeatedly announces on his programs that when Moshiach comes there won’t be any more Shnayim Ochzim Bitalis. Then he adds that tbere will only be the Kabbalistic understanding of the Gemara. Chabad views Nigleh as an enemy that must be eliminated C”V. As for the Rebbe’s popularity, a poster noted that many Gedolim were taken in by Shabbetai Tzvi.
    To the group

    On Sunday mornings tha Chabad shul I attend has a breakfast and shiur after davenimg. In the last few months the class consists of reading letters from the Rebbe. In one such letter the Rebbe described the characteristics of a Nasi Chabad, and I’ll quote,”Every Nasi Chabad is a Baal Mofes, and he has Ruach Hakodesh. But the main thing to know is that the Nasi Chabad is the Nasi Hador.” In a different thread Sechel83 said he’ll accept the worst Snag as Moshiach if he fulfills Rambam’s criteria. But he’s lying. Every Lubavicher accepts that the Rebbe is a Novi and he declared that Moshiach must be a Lubavicher.


    I think both sides are losing the debate here. Just by making such issues the focus of your relationship to Hashem or by trying to bring up every little idiocy your slightly meshugene neighbor have done in his life. Can we all just get along?

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