August 22, 2023 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #2218667
“Every little idiocy.” Was Christianity a little idiocy?August 22, 2023 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #2218688Yechi HamelechParticipant
Regardless of what everyone thinks of the atzmus statement from Likkutei Sichos, I do want to say that I find it heartening to see so many yidden being מפלפל in just one sentence from the Rebbe’s Torah; if only we would also have all these passionate discussions about all of the non-controversial things in Likkutei Sichos as well.August 23, 2023 12:17 am at 12:17 am #2218693amiricanyeshivishParticipant
Are there any?August 23, 2023 12:23 am at 12:23 am #2218697Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Qwerty, good comparison. Is r Perachia not criticized for being too strict to his student while he was not beyond the pale yet?!August 23, 2023 12:24 am at 12:24 am #2218699
There’s been a little too much heat here today for me to get a logical word in, so I’m just gonna let everything slip by.
There’s just one thing that I feel the need to comment on:
In one such letter the Rebbe described the characteristics of a Nasi Chabad, and I’ll quote,”Every Nasi Chabad is a Baal Mofes, and he has Ruach Hakodesh. But the main thing to know is that the Nasi Chabad is the Nasi Hador.”
Since the Rebbe was grossly misquoted here, I feel the need to bring the true letter that qwerty is probably referring to, dated Gimmel Tammuz 5710:
רבים המחפשים ומבארים מעלות וגדולת נשיאי חב”ד בכלל, ונשיא דורנו, הוא כ”ק מו”ח אדמו”ר הכ”מ, בפרט בענינים שונים: איש המסירות-נפש, גאון, בעל מדות, צדיק, בעל רוח הקודש, מלומד בנסים ועוד ועוד.
וגדלו ביותר שבחים אלו, על פי ההגדרה בתורת החסידות, מהו מסירות נפש, מהו גאון וכו’.
ובכל זה – העיקר חסר כאן. ונוסף על זה, שהוא עיקר בעצם, חשוב הוא ביחוד משום שנוגע ביותר, וביחוד לנו, קהל חסידיו ומקושריו. וזהו – מה שהוא הוא הנשיא, ונשיא חב”ד.
כי – נשיא בכלל, נקרא ראש1 אלפי ישראל, הוא בחינת ראש ומוח לגביהם, וממנו היא יניקה וחיות שלהם. ועל ידי הדביקה בו קשורים ומיוחדים הם בשרשם למעלה מעלה.
והנה כמה סוגים בנשיאים2: אלו אשר השפעתם בבחינת פנימיות, ואלו אשר השפעתם בבחינת מקיף. ובזה גופא חילוקים: אם השפיעו בתורת הנגלה או הנסתר או בשניהם יחדיו, לימדו דרכי העבודה והחסידות, המשיכו השפעות גשמיות וכו’ וכו’.
וישנם כאלו, שהי’ בהם כמה מבחינות הנ”ל, או גם כולם3.
וזה הי’ מאז ועד עתה ענין הנהגת נשיאי חב”ד, מן כ”ק אדמו”ר הזקן ועד כ”ק מו”ח אדמו”ר הכ”מ ועד בכלל, אשר כללו כל הסוגים והחילוקים: השפיעו בפנימיות ובמקיף, בתורה עבודה וגמ”ח, ברוחניות ובגשמיות. ובמילא היתה התקשרותם עם השייכים אליהם בכל תרי”ג אברי נפש וגוף המקושרים.
ועל כל אחד ואחת מאתנו כולנו לדעת, היינו להעמיק דעתו ולתקוע מחשבתו בזה, אשר הוא הוא הנשיא והראש, ממנו ועל ידו הם כל ההשפעות בגשמיות וברוחניות, ועל ידי ההתקשרות אליו (וכבר הורה במכתביו איך ובמה מתקשרים) קשורים, ומיוחדים בשרש ושרש השרש עד למעלה מעלה כו’.
ג’ תמוז, ה’שי”ת,
ראה תניא פ”ב.
באריכות: תורה אור פ’ מקץ ד”ה ת”ר מצות נ”ח. סהמ”צ להצ”צ מצות נ”ח פ”ג. ד”ה למען דעת, תרס”ט [סה”מ תרס”ט ע’ לט ואילך].
ראה בתו”א שם ספ”ז דבמשיח יש ב’ הבחי’, דרועים ונסיכים. – ובש”ס (סוכה נב, ב) נחשב בנסיכים, י”ל מפני שזהו העיקר בו.August 23, 2023 12:25 am at 12:25 am #2218703
So, all the Chabaniks here, what is the problem with Christianity? Why did the GR”A put Chassidim into cheirem?
After reading your statements I came to realize that Chabad is a much bigger mess than I had thought.August 23, 2023 7:34 am at 7:34 am #2218748
Exactly. As I’ve stated, when I joined this thread I thougjt it would be the typical Moshiach can come from the dead, no he can’t debate. I had no idea it would it would turn into a discussion as to whether or not the Rebbe is god.
To Rabbi Menachem Shmei
I can’t speak for the others, but I don’t know how to read such postings. I learn woth Artscroll. Now since you printed the letter it implies that I didn’t present it accurately. I just repeated what that Rabbi said. If you feel that he made mistake(s) then by all means correct them. I told you I’m not learned.
What does Chabad have to do, in your opinion, to take it beyond the pale?August 23, 2023 7:35 am at 7:35 am #2218749
To american yeshivish
Let’s not go overboard. The Rebbe was a supergenius and he had some incredible Torah. On the other hand it seems pretty clear that he did say some unacceptable things.August 23, 2023 7:36 am at 7:36 am #2218758
I don’t necessarily agree in full with YankelBerel’s understanding of the problem with Lubavich but I definitely agree with him and Avirah that major part of it is the focus on Chabad chassidus and concepts found in Kabbalah.
I have Lubavich relatives with children who try their hardest to get me to accept that the Rebbe is Mashiach and/or alive, and that he is the Nassi Hador (as I have written, a totally non-existent concept for centuries), and in order to “prove” it they quote Kabbalistic concepts which they clearly do not understand, and which I, an absolute novice in Kabbalah, understand better than they do.
I have a better understanding of math and physics than the average person, and I know not only that E=mcSquared but I can explain the meaning of the equation, but I don’t REALLY understand it. That, in my opinion, is how Lubavichers learn and teach chassidus.
Someone mentioned that there was a very good reason that they ruled that Kabbalah should be not be studied by someone under the age of forty, and I believe a major reason for the ban was that concepts that have to REMAIN abstract may be taken literally by someone younger, and lead to hagshamah – believing in a physical manifestation of Hashem c”v. To me, therefore, it is not surprising that Lubavich is able to accept people who believe that their rebbe is akin to Hashem, that he runs the world etc.
Citing the example I brought earlier, perhaps Menachem can tell us how great the outcry in Lubavich was when that crazy wrote “Who Elokeinu?… The rebbe melech hasmashiach, that’s who!” After all, it wasn’t just some looney who said it. It was published in a Lubavich publication which continued to be published long after that issue hit the stands.
Was there an outcry? Was he loudly and vehemently condemned? Perhaps someone can send us a Kol Korei against it. It should certainly have been considered a “chilul Lubavich”!August 23, 2023 7:39 am at 7:39 am #2218759
Yechi: “I find it heartening to see so many yidden being מפלפל in just one sentence from the Rebbe’s Torah”
You’ve got it wrong. Perhaps Menachem and other Lubavichers are being mefalpel, but we who consider it apikorsus (or close to it) aren’t being mefalpel. We are absolutely rejecting it.
When someon comes out with arguments showing that the new testament is worthless and minnus, is it a pilpul?August 23, 2023 10:10 am at 10:10 am #2218806
I don’t know how to read such postings. I learn woth Artscroll.
Free translation from Chabad dot org:
Many people seek to pinpoint and characterize the virtues and preeminence of each of the Rebbeim of Chabad, and in particular of the Nasi of our generation — my revered father-in-law, the Rebbe, הכ”מ — in various terms:2 the paradigm of self-sacrifice, a gaon, a man of exemplary character traits, a tzaddik, an individual endowed with divine inspiration, an individual accustomed to [performing] miracles, and so on.
When one considers how the teachings of Chassidus define what self-sacrifice really means, what being a gaon really means, and so on, these are indeed extremely laudatory terms.
Nevertheless, the essential point is missing here. Apart from this being the essence per se, it is especially important because of the vital effect it has [in general], and in particular upon us, the community of those who are his chassidim and who are bound to him. That essential point is the fact that he is the Nasi, and the Nasi of Chabad.
For a Nasi by definition is referred to as3 the head of the multitudes of Israel; in relation to them he is the “head” and “brain”; their nurture and life-force reach them through him; and by cleaving to him they are bound and united with their Source in the Supernal worlds.
There are various categories of Nesiim:4 some Nesiim convey their influence in an internalized manner; others diffuse their influence in an indirect and encompassing manner.5 These differences may be further subdivided: some Nesiim endow their recipients with insights into the revealed plane of the Torah (Nigleh); some endow their recipients with insights into the mystical plane of the Torah, and some do both together; some instruct their followers in the paths of avodah and Chassidus; some direct material benefits to their followers; and so on.
And there are Nesi’im who comprise several of these attributes, or even all of them.6
This [essential] quality [of a Nasi] has characterized the leadership of the Nesiim of Chabad from the very beginning, from the Alter Rebbe up to and including my revered father-in-law, the Rebbe, הכ”מ. They incorporated all the above attributes: they radiated both inward and encompassing influence — in Torah, in avodah, and in the practice of good deeds; [and they conveyed blessings both] spiritual and material. Consequently, [the Nesiim of Chabad] have been bound7 with all 613 organs of the soul and body of those who were connected with them.
Every single one of us must know — i.e., must think deeply and fix his thought8 on this — that [the Rebbe Rayatz] is indeed the Nasi and the head; from him and through him are directed all material and spiritual benefactions; and by being bound to him (in his letters he has taught us how this is accomplished)9 we are bound and united with the spiritual root, with the ultimate Supernal spiritual root.
3 Tammuz, 5710 
Instructions concerning the establishment of educational programs for Jewish children in North Africa
The Haftorah to be read when Rosh Chodesh Av falls on Shabbos
[The letter appears in Sefer HaMaamarim 5710, p. 254; it is reprinted in Likkutei Sichos, Vol. XI, p. 209.]
[See the discussion of these virtues in the conclusion of Letter No. 637.]
See Tanya, ch. 2.
Discussed at length in: Torah Or, Parshas Miketz, s.v. Mitzvas Ner Chanukah; Sefer HaMitzvos (Derech Mitzvosecha) by the Tzemach Tzedek, s.v. Mitzvas Ner Chanukah, sec. 3; and in the maamar beginning LeMaan Daas, 5669 [in Sefer HaMaamarim 5669, p. 39ff.].
[Bivchinas makif, in the original.]
As discussed in Torah Or (loc. cit.), end of sec. 7, Mashiach comprises the qualities of both ro’im and nesichim. In the Talmud (Sukkah 52b), Mashiach is reckoned among the nesichim, evidently because this is his dominant quality.
[Torah Or, loc. cit., explains that the term ro’im (shepherds) refers to leaders who draw down influence that is internalized among the Jewish people. Nesichim (princes) refers to leaders whose influence is conveyed bederech makkif (in an encompassing manner). Although Mashiach will convey both these types of influence (i.e., he will be both teacher and king), his primary quality will resemble that of the nesichim.]
[In the original (as a noun), hiskashrus.]
[In the original, “know” is ladaas, implying attachment born of this kind of thinking; cf. Tanya, end of ch.3.]
[See Letter No. 561 which discusses this bonding process.]August 23, 2023 11:28 am at 11:28 am #2218825
I don’t see that you are making any point other than that misunderstood concepts easily become misapplied.
It makes no sense to me to judge a group based on it’s reactions to extremists. But if that is true, then Chabad extremists have done less evil than the extremists of other groups….. So maybe start there.August 23, 2023 11:30 am at 11:30 am #2218865
“For thousands of years – since matan torah – we had one thing and one thing only- in our public domain. Nigleh . Even though Nistar is an integral part of the torah , it was not in the public domain . this started to change from the time of the publication of the Zohar , the earlier Mekubalim, the Ari and his disciples , but was mainly popularized since the advent of the Baal Shem and his talmidim.”
Farcical, erroneous, pure fiction.
For the first thousand years after Mattan Torah, there was so much Esoteric Torah that the revelation of the Zohar would be nothing but an opaque curtain to hide the Toras Haniglah. The next thousand years was the formation of our classical books. There is only one work that sticks to niglah = The Mishna. There is a parallel work that only sticks to nistar = Sefer Yetzirah. If we had to divide all the works of this period into nistar versus niglah, two thirds of it would be nistar. But that is only what survived. Using historical analysis, we know that while some niglah was lost only some nistar survived.
At that time, there wasn’t anything in the public domain. An individual had to come to Bais Medrash to learn Torah. A rebbe could refuse to teach a talmid that was not up to the material, but there was no ‘hiding’ of esoteric teachings. See the public sermons that have been preserved in the Midrashim.
The major change is the rise in universal literacy. Even when The Zohar was printed, it was not legible to most of the lay people because of unfamiliar terminology and obscure abbreviations. The Baal Shem did not advocate spreading Kabbala any more than most of his contemporaries. His contribution to Lurianic Mysticism was his insistence not to spread the other versions of Kabbalah. The Polish Mekubalim of that era had a potpourri of teachings that were contradictory and of unknown origins that were being widely disseminated. The nearby countries had many kabbala tinged public speakers and books. Germany was going through a downturn in Torah study in general, but the Shelah was already a prominent sefer.
I don’t see why Chabad is the issue when you have complete goyim studying The Zohar and Arizal and publishing in all languages.August 23, 2023 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #2218930
Avira, I can respond to your post but before I do, please explain the פסוק: ויאמינו בה׳ ובמשה עבדו
Why should the Yidden need to believe in Moshe? Shouldn’t they only believe in Hashem? Especially that their Emuna in Hashem wasn’t so great at that point? ThanksAugust 23, 2023 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #2218911
“So, ….. what is the problem with Christianity? Why did the GR”A put Chassidim into cheirem?”
1) The Christians stopped observing. Why is this so hard for you to realize? Are you not observant?
2) You can read the posters that the Gaon signed for yourself. But that assumes that you realize you are talking about three different things.August 23, 2023 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #2218903
As you wrote in the OP, you rarely interact with Frum non Lubavitchers. So let me save you a lot of heartache. When you quote Chabad sounding Torah from mainstream figures (Especially the Chasam Sofer.) be prepared for all kinds of ridiculous responses. The Frum World is not so into learning as much as they claim to be. Talking about what is or isn’t learning, is much more common. It takes an hour to learn Daf Yomi. It takes hours to debate the merits of learning Daf Yomi.August 23, 2023 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #2218904
It easier for me and you when we can discuss all our differences in one post.
“Menachem, there are many things in medrashim that we don’t understand; this is a great example. The rambam rules that if one believes that Hashem gave over command of a part of the world to a malaach, or a kochav, or anything else, he is an oved avodah zara. That’s halacha lemaysoh. Thinking that Hashem gave over control of the world to a tzadik is the same thing.”
I went back to find the post and couldn’t. But the midrash says that ‘He is a partner with Hashem in the Act of Creation!’ However you understand it, the point stands. These statements are not out of bounds. Not only that, but these statements are the very basis for the teaching of what constitutes boundaries in esoteric and mystical doctrines. Why would anyone think that The Rebbe meant something the Midrash doesn’t. He knew the Rambam better than we did.
The Rambam calls this minus. There is no A”Z without an action. We went through this on this thread. But once it got down to what the Rambam says without any implication on Lubavitch, all the ministers of the holy inquisition lost interest.
[On a side note, I mentioned a Chinuch that says that the Mitzva of listening to a Navi is at any time there is a Navi. Nothing about it not possible in our day. Like he writes in many other places.]
It is not practical halacha until we can read minds. What someone says and what they themselves value are not the same thing. Unless the individual is a man of extreme integrity. It is also not a matter of halacha for the individual. If the person thinks that this is the proper belief, they will understand the Rambam in accordance with their view. Many fanatics of astrology awere all over the Rambam and the Moreh, even though he criticizes astrology extensively.
How did you get that thinking a Tzaddik can completely change reality is the same thing?!? And why is it okay for all other gedolim to teach such a claim?August 23, 2023 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #2218902
No delusions to get anyone to change –
This is a correct observation – Mentioned before that Habad Hassidim are explicitly instructed by their rebbe the following :
In every argument you should act with Ahavat yisrael , manners and respect . But in your own mind , in your own pnimiyut , you should give credence to your opponents arguments , LESS THAN KLIPAT HASHUM .
So the habad hassidim who would be swayed by any of your arguments are in direct contradiction to their own rebbi . Totally untenable.
Are they special people ? Meaning :good , sincere ,non judging, accepting, joyful , ready for mesirat nefsh ? Most definitely .
Is their theology sorely mistaken ? Most definitely .
Both of those statements are not contradictory. Not at all .August 23, 2023 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #2218901
Yankel Berel is absolutely right, but he wasn’t able to pass through your fine sifter. I’ll present his views in a way that even you won’t be able to challenge them. I heard Rav Reuvein Feinstein speak about 30 years ago and he said the following, “Judaism is very simple. You need to believe in Hashem and learn the basic laws. There’s nothing to it.” So you buy Kosher Tefilin and Mezuzos. Wear Tzitis. Find reliable places to buy Kosher food. Attend shiurim and go to a good Shul(s). That’s what Hashem wants from us. In no way are we enjoined to delve into the esoteric. In fact, in Parshas Nitzavim we’re clearly told that our realm is Nigleh. And after Shabbetai Tzvi, safeguards were instituted to keep the masses from studying such materials, but Chabad ignored all this and decided to go against the norm. It is now reaping what it sowed in violating the edict of our Rabbonim. As for your statement that there was great knowledge of Sisrei Torah thousands of years ago. You’re absolutely right, but we learn from the incident of the Merkavah that even the greatest Tannaim couldn’t handle such mysterious subjects. It was only Rabbi Akiva who was sufficiently grounded in Nigleh who could thrive in both worlds. And the same is true for Rashbi. Yes, we call him the father of Kabbalah, but he’s also found throughout Shas dealing in the most mundane subjects. Rabbi Butman declared on numerous occasions that when Moshiach comes Nigleh will be replaced b y Nister. That’s blatant Kefirah. They will, however, coexist because people will be on a Madreigah which allows them to delve into both realms.August 23, 2023 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #2218900
*moshiach not MalachAugust 23, 2023 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #2218899
“It is very much in line with their ludicrous statement – again, I’ve heard this one many times – that when other chassidim say stam “the Rebbe” the mean the Lubavicher rebbe unless they specify a different title.”
Now this is getting real. Other chassidim – especially the more organized groups – know very little Chassidus. The Rebbe in an organized chassidus is more likely to push learning Halachah over Chassidus. So, any mainstream Lubavitcher transposes all their terms into Chabad. This makes perfect sense to me.August 23, 2023 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #2218898
You misunderstood me . Am not taking issue with habad learning nistar , perse.
Am only trying to explain the tendency in Habad to advocate for all types of convenient [for them] but outlandish theological ideas.
Am only tracing the dots .August 23, 2023 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #2218893
Lets look at the history , the reality , the facts – The official Chabad line as publicized by their rebbe , their chozer , their rabbanim , their Mashpiim FROM THE START ,not any Harry who claims to be Chabad — Ok ?
Lets be honest without any obfuscation and changing the topic .
In the beginning ,  the line was -Anyone who claims that Chabad claims to be messianic is a plain liar , against chasidus , mechalel shem lubavitsh etc , Only the Mitnagdim who tried to besmirch Lubavitsh said so , and it was an indication of their blind hate . Other Chasidim stuck up for Lubavitsh as the innocent victim of Hotsaat Shem Ra. All the evidence is there , in the archives of HaModia and Kfar Chabad and other newspapers of that era.
Then  it changed , Chabad Chassidim made a u turn , openly proclaimed their rebbe as Mashiach , but the rebbe openly criticized it . He definitely is not Mashiach . Here too, the evidence is plainly there in all the newspapers of the era . Then  he too followed in their u turn , openly acknowledged his own messiahship , clearly evidenced by his periodic near weekly dvar malchus dating from approx 6 months preceding his stroke in the spring of 1992 , until the stroke , also available in the archives, as well the weekly issues of the kfar chabad newspaper the official chabad public organ. . In the meantime [3A] he also proclaimed himself a navi , like chagai zecharia and malachi . Nevua ,after a hiatus of thousands of years ,has finally come back to klal yisrael. b’h. Also clearly documented in dvar malcus [parshas shoftim] . Quite a big u turn , when you compare no 1 – with no 3A. It s not finished yet , because then [3B] as Nevua [!] he proclaimed that Mashiach is here already now kipshuto and will take us bekarov out of galus , and that we are in the first generation of the geula. So as a result there was a wall to wall coallition of all official chabad mashpiiim and Rabbanim saying that  it is one of ikarei emuna to believe and follow a navi plus their rebbi is a navi plus he prophesied on himself that he is mashiach plus it is one of the ikarei emuna that mashiach has to finish the geula before he dies . One plus one plus one plus one – equals four . Result – it is one of the ikarei emuna that their rebbi CANNOT die before the finish of the geula . Not me , not I am saying this , This was OFFICIAL Chabad theology. Evidence is there . Its all in the archives . Read kfar Chabad weekly , sichos of r yoel kahn . Sichos and articles of mendel wechter , of r ashkenazi rav of kfar chabad [the town], signed kol koreis of virtually all rabbanim of chabad kehillot.
Then  the unthinkable happened . He died. The minority, including yoel kahn , stayed with their previous belief that mashiach must finish the geula before he dies [the normative Jewish belief as clearly delineated by the RMBN , Rabenu Moshe ben NACHMAN in sefer havikuach] so they jettisoned the nevua parts . They admitted in being mistaken [!] in that . Here it is not sure where exactly [in their own eyes] they went wrong .. but never mind. The majority however  could not bring themselves to throw the navi part out of the window , so they jettisoned the dying part . No, they proclaimed loudly, mashiach can die before he finishes the job . What previously was considered part of the ikarei emuna, is now hevel havalim , or depending on a machloket , where everyone can choose what they like , whats convenient for them .
My question is – who needs to argue against Habad Theology any more , when Habad themselves are doing such a splendid work ?
Caveat – They are wonderful people ,just theologically mistaken .August 23, 2023 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #2218891
To Menachem Shmei
Thanks for the translation. It seems pretty close to what I said in my posting except for one thing. The Rebbe is specifically speaking about the Rayyatz and not all Chabad Nesiim and it seems that he’s saying that the Nasi of Chabad is the unquestioned leader of Chabad but not necessarily of all Jews. My understanding, however, is that all Lubavitchers believe that the Nasi Chabad is the Nasi of Klal Yisroel. Let me explain how I arrived at that conclusion. About twenty years ago I attended a YI whose Rabbi is Chabad (they hired him because he spoke Russian.) He resented the fact that I was frum (sorry Coffee addict I am generally considered frum) but not Chabad. One day he told me, “For the past 250 years there have only been seven Gedolim, just the seven Chabad Rebbes.” The next day I spoke to another Lubavitch Rabbi who I knew was more moderate and repeated what the first rabbi said. He responded, “What, is he nuts? Rav Moshe wasn’t a Gadol?” I was relieved to hear that, and I started to walk out of his shul when he added, “But we are the Nesius.” I didn’t know what he meant, and I didn’t ask him. After hearing this about the Rebbe’s letter I understood that it’s viewed as a declaration that Chabad is the ruling class of Judaism. I ask the Lubavitchers in the thread to clarify what the Rebbe meant.August 23, 2023 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #2218886
Reb Schneur Kotler was exceptionally fluent in Tanya. (Exceptional; because it was common for the top bochurim in certain Litvishe Yeshivos of Pre War Europe to be fluent in Tanya.) His Yartziet is also Gimmel Tammuz (5742).August 23, 2023 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #2218960☕️coffee addictParticipant
“About twenty years ago I attended a YI whose Rabbi is Chabad (they hired him because he spoke Russian.) He resented the fact that I was frum (sorry Coffee addict I am generally considered frum) but not Chabad.“
Are you saying Young Israel was less frum than you twenty years ago? I guess it depends on the locality because I don’t think Rabbi Miller would be considered a fanatic in regards to YI twenty years ago if he kept his positionAugust 23, 2023 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #2218964
To Yankel Berel
Your last post was fabulous. Obviously it will fall on deaf ears, but you really made it clear that Lubavitchers just change the narrative to fit what they want the outcome to be. Paul Simon said it best, “All lies in jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.” Oh no here comes the peanut gallery again. How can you call yourself a Jew? Don’t you know that there was a Kol Koreh signed by 137 Gedolim outlawing rock? On a serious and personal note, I really appreciate your coming to my defense. It was more important for the right wingers in this thread to get me to submit to their pressure tactics than to focus on the real issue, which is exposing Chabad. Obviously, no Lubavitcher in the thread is going to have an immediate epiphany, but the truth ultimately wins out. To that point Rabbi Miller said that if you keep repeating the truth those that fought you will eventually quote you.August 23, 2023 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #2218965
Nomesorah, stop with your shtussim. The problem with the Christians was not that they stopped observing Halochah. The main problem was that they believe(d) that Yoshke is a part of G-d. That’s why it is considered an Avodah Zorah. That is why Yidden throughout the ages would rather die than accept their faith. These are basic, well-known facts of the Jewish law and Jewish history.August 23, 2023 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #2218966
CS, the Yidden believed that Moshe Rabbeinu was a real messenger of Ha”SHEm, a real novi.August 23, 2023 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #2218967AviraDeArahParticipant
Cs, believing in Moshe means believing that the Torah he gave us is 100% true and dvar Hashem, and that his nevuah is above all other neviim.
What it does NOT mean, is that there’s something independently powerful or holy about Moshe without Hashem; see meshech chochma on the chait haegel; the mistake was that they put an independent emphasis on Moshe rabbeinu, and thought that without him there can be no other leader or way of reaching Hashem.
Tanach is full of pesukim which pine for the days when knowledge of Hashem – not tzadikim – will fill the earth,and we daven for it all day on rosh Hashanah. Nowhere in the machzor do we daven that the world know about rebbe akiva or the rishonim, achronim; they are important to get close to Hashem, as the mitzvah of uvo sidbak – clinging to Hashem, but that’s for jews and it’s a next step after basic emunah.
Emunah doesn’t start with moshe, it starts with Hashem; and that’s exactly the order in the pasuk. They believed in Hashem and in Moshe.
But when the jews sinned, the neviim didn’t chastise them for forgetting Moshe – that’s a big problem, but the bigger issue was forgetting Hashem.
When talking about goyim, it’s fine if they never even heard of Moshe rabbeinu; do you think west africans need to know tanach to be good people? The 7 mitzvos are logical; they’re supposed to gigure them out on their own. And according to most, if a goy sets out to believe in Hashem abd keep the 7 mitzvos as he understands them to be the reflection of Hashem’s will he will have olam haba. He has solved the riddle of the universe, he is a person worthy of praise.
The goal in teaching emunas chachamim is that they guide us and we trust them that they are guided by ruach hakodesh and hashgocha. When we lose them, we lose that ability to access Hashem’s Torah on that level and hear their guidance. But does that mean i will want every goy in the world to hear the name rav moshe feinstein or rav aharon kotler? Why do i care if they know them, as long as they know there’s a creator and maintainer of the world? Even the name of Hashem, as important as that is for Jews and how powerful that is – we rejoice when arab non jews acknowledge Hashem in their own language, because that’s the most important thing.August 23, 2023 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #2218971
Nomesorah- thanks but what was that in reference to?August 23, 2023 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #2218976
You left out 2a 2b 2c 2d 2e 2f 2g and so on. Which is almost all the other Rebbes and other Gedolim putting their weight on the Lubavitcher Rebbe being moshiach. And then they switched sides. Then and only then, did the Rebbe get into his cryptic statements that you called proclamations. You are missing a lot of nuance here. It is not theology. It is anthropology. And you left out the Crown Heights riots. And the battle over the TTY. Plus the current rift among the mechanchim.
Either you know little about Chabad from the inside, or you are deliberately subverting the narrative.
To put my question straight. Who do you think is behind all these machinations? Chabad is a large and loose group. What makes them so organized and who is pulling the strings?August 23, 2023 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #2218978
I enjoyed your response.
I don’t think the classical pitfalls of learning Kabbalah apply here. Chabad ignores practical Kabbalah which was the downfall of Sabbtai Tzvi and others. They are not studying the intense devotions that risk ones mental state. It isn’t really much different than other groups hashkafos besides for that it is grounded more in The Rebbe’s persona than the community at large.August 23, 2023 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #2219003
In no way are we enjoined to delve into the esoteric… but Chabad ignored all this and decided to go against the norm. It is now reaping what it sowed in violating the edict of our Rabbonim.
You make it sound like all the rabbanim of klal Yisroel ruled that one is not allowed to learn kabbala, yet in recent years a bunch of Chabad fanatics ignored the rabbanim and started poking their noses in the wrong places.
This is far from the truth.
The Arizal already said: בדורות אלו האחרונים מותר ומצוה לגלות זאת החכמה
(In these recent generations it is a mitzvah to reveal this chochma).
Came the Baal Shem Tov and his many followers in the next generations who were Torah giants in nigleh and chassidus, and they felt that the time came to spread this Torah to Klal Yisroel more than ever before (because of the special inspiration that was need for our hard times, as well as to prepare for the geula).
If Rav Reuven Feinstein (or any other rov) feels that this is unnecessary, does that compel Chabad chassidim to give up the derech of their own rebbes!?
(Then you claim that CHABAD wants everyone to follow their rabbis!)August 23, 2023 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #2219000
Vilna Gaon has an explanation on Emuna in Moshe.
Runs opposite to what habad would want it to be .August 23, 2023 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #2218997
To Coffee Addict
“Are you saying that YI was less frum than you twenty years ago?” YI is not monithic. YI on the LES is largely Yeshivish. In the YI of my new neighborhood they’d give weekly aliyahs to two Russians who were married to sbiksas. I know you thi k I’m the biggest goy in the world, but you are sadly mistaken. A few days ago you predicted that I would bow out of the thread. That was wishful thonking. Thi k about it. Witbout me against whom could you direct yoir hatred and disgust?
Good response. Lubavichers grasp at straws trying to justify trusti g in the Rebbe rather than Hashem.
Your compliment remimds me of what the King of Spain said to Ramban. I’ll accept it because a good word from you is rare.August 23, 2023 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #2218998
Your latest posting reminds me of an incident that occurred probably a de ade ago. Rabbi Boteach was on Zev Brenner’s program. Someone called challenged him for teaching Torah to a gentile Cory Booker. He tried a few times to change the subject, bit finally he came up with, “It’s only Asur to teach Torah to a goy if you want to convert him.” Boteach has one law, je’s always right. The same for n0mesorah. Thete’s an ironclad Psak against learning Kabbalah which Chabad dismisses and Nom defenfs themby saying Chabad only studies safe Kabbalah. No such distimction exists, but Nom like Boteach can’t accept beimg beatenAugust 23, 2023 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #2218995
Post #2218595 More about Tzaddikim of today …..August 23, 2023 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #2218996
The break over observance came well before their formulation of a comprehensive theology.August 23, 2023 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #2219018
The break over theology was first . Their breaking observance was a REACTION to our rejection of their theology .
Inform yourself.August 23, 2023 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #2219020
…. classical pitfalls of learning Kabbalah apply here. Chabad ignores practical Kabbalah which was the downfall of Sabbtai Tzvi and others. They are not studying the intense devotions that risk ones mental state. It isn’t really much different than other groups hashkafos ……
You are either not getting it or ignoring on purpose . Would suggest you reread the relevant post slowly and carefully …..August 24, 2023 12:20 am at 12:20 am #2219033
Menachem…, a big reason why Chazal opposed learning Kabbola by everybody is because of a big hashash michshol! Understand? The Arizal’s heter helps only for the reason that it is kovod Shamaim to keep it hidden. It does not help for the hashash michshoilim!August 24, 2023 12:21 am at 12:21 am #2219022
Re emuna in Moshe Rabenu –
Gaon from Vilna explains this very simply –
They had Emuna that Moshe’s actions and words were fully grounded in in his Avdut . In the fact that he is merely an Eved ,a servant . With no personal interests , no illusions of personal grandeur. As a result they could rest assured that his message which he brought to the Yidden was pure Dvar HaShem ,unadulterated.
The emuna was not in Moshe . The emuna was in his Avdut.August 24, 2023 12:22 am at 12:22 am #2219023
To Menacjem Shmei
Lubavichers have decided that they do not want to be part of normative Judaism and they clearly see Chabad as distinct. Since this is your Mehalech it’s quite obvious that ypu could careess about a Psak accepted by all observant Ashkenazic Jews. This Psak, as every Lubavicher knows, was formulated in response to the Shabbetai Tzvi debacle amd therefore Arizal’s opinion is irrelevant. Moreover your idiotic swipe at Rav Reuvein is a thinly veiled attempt to make it sound like this is a recent Psa
. You know full well that this Psak is 300 yearz old. The point of the Psak is that one may not begin studying Kabbalh until he is fully conversant in Nogleh. If, like Ramchal, that occurs
before reachong 40 tjen he’s the exception. Teenagers in Crown Heights are told toaster Kabbalah. So yes ypur Rabbis are in violation of ignoring the words of the Sages.
editedAugust 24, 2023 12:23 am at 12:23 am #2219025
Main point is not “yes kabala not kabala”
Widespread accessibility and delving into kabala is a fact anyway. .
Point to be taken now , is learning and delving into it with an ASSURANCE that one understands it properly , ask questions , come up with answers , bring proofs etc. in an absolute manner like in nigleh . That is mistaken and dangerous , in my view at least .
The Gaon says that of all talmidie ARI , only r chaim vital understood the nimshal . Being that the Ari when discoursing about kabala , only said what he wanted to convey , in the form of a mashal , not the nimshal itself .
Thats where habad is going haywire . They approach it with the full self assurance typically associated with their other activities .
Anything not within our clearly accepted mesorah from our great grandparents, “proven” by habad of the last 70 years , based on kabala , is suspicious.
Refer to my previous post where you can see habad theological acrobatics on display .
Each twist and each turn was at the time supported by myriad “proofs” , with footnotes and what have you . With beautiful convincing language.August 24, 2023 12:35 am at 12:35 am #2219043
Yankel Berel, but that is the problem — that one may learn the wrong pshat. Also, not many people learn really deep Kabbola.August 24, 2023 12:35 am at 12:35 am #2219042LostsparkParticipant
QWERTY was mated a long time ago. At this point he’s either a troll or is not capable of truly understanding the meilah of chassidus in todays world. What’s outstandingly funny to me is he davens in a ChaBaD Shul which makes him complicit in the AZ he so accuses ChaBaD of committing.
I’m not even going to give you recommendations to read because you apparently have your mind made up. If you are truly a doctor remember it’s not good to embodify only netzach, hod is required. You may be bright but I’m afraid you are doing too well in life for yourself.August 24, 2023 8:51 am at 8:51 am #2219054
In reference to an earlier post (I don’t remember where) regarding the possibility of someone being a partner with the RBSO in Creation, the gemoro (Shabbos 119b) says that a Yid who says Vayechulu on Friday night becomes a partner etc. (It also says the same thing (10a) earlier about a dayan who judges correctly, but that statement is more exclusive.)
The point is, though, that although one can indeed become a partner with Hashem, it clearly doesn’t mean an equal partner or one with the same powers. After all, I imagine we all say Kiddush on Friday nights but none of us (I think and hope) consider ourselves on the level of a full partner.August 24, 2023 8:52 am at 8:52 am #2219056
n0m: “Other chassidim – especially the more organized groups – know very little Chassidus. The Rebbe in an organized chassidus is more likely to push learning Halachah over Chassidus. So, any mainstream Lubavitcher transposes all their terms into Chabad. This makes perfect sense to me.”
I don’t see how that justifies Lubavichers claims that when OTHER chassidim say “the Rebbe” they mean the Lubavicher rebbe and not their own.August 24, 2023 9:08 am at 9:08 am #2219057
qwerty, you keep writing that people on this thread hate you for this or that reason. Where do you see hate? They disagree with a lot of what you say, and may not like your style, but I don’t recall hate.
Why are you playing the victim?
- The topic ‘Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher’ is closed to new replies.