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@lostspark
The issue is not “the plus or the minus of learning chasidut” .
The issue is habad theology , its acrobatics , its sources , its merit and its repercussions .
There is nothing to read which will undo those acrobatics .
It is a failed theology .@nomesorah
“You left out 2a 2b 2c 2d 2e 2f 2g and so on. Which is almost all the other Rebbes and other Gedolim putting their weight on the Lubavitcher Rebbe being moshiach…..”
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Cryptic. What exactly are you referring to ?
.@nomesorah
Re public learning of nistar thru the generations …..
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1] What does it say in Masechta Hagiga re being doresh be maaseh merkava ? In front of how many people ?
2] What does the Shach , on the foremost Leaders of Klal Yisrael, say about Limud HaKabala , in his Peirush on Hilchot Talmud Torah in YD ?
3] Is Midrash classified as Nistar ? Or as Nigleh ? Was my post regarding Nistar meant to include Midrash or exclude it ?
4] Was one of the reasons the early hasidim were put in herem bec of popularizing kabala to all, as opposed to the select few Talmidei Chachamim as until then ?
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Think about the answers to those questions …..When parties are debating each other, there needs to be some understanding or set of foundational principles that they all agree upon. Otherwise, it will devolve into chaos and misunderstanding.
In this heated topic, there’s a lack of that understanding.
What are the facts? What are the rules? Lastly, which sources are okay?
If not, everyone ends up going around in circles.
Personally, I embrace every yid as a part of our holy nation. It’s not my role to categorize any group negatively, especially when they have their own rabbanim and leaders, regardless of my personal views on their approach.
Is anyone still interested in my reply? It’s busy here…
“@nomesorah
“You left out 2a 2b 2c 2d 2e 2f 2g and so on. Which is almost all the other Rebbes and other Gedolim putting their weight on the Lubavitcher Rebbe being moshiach…..”
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Cryptic. What exactly are you referring to ?”Was wondering the same, Does “almost all other Rebbes and other Gedolim” include Belz, Satmar, Viznitz, Bobov, Reb Aron, Reb Moshe, Reb Avigdor Miller, and all others that slipped my mind?
It for sure was not something they had spoken about in their own circles.
To Menachem Shmei
I’ll repeat my question of the other day. According to the letter ypu provided, the Rebbe seems to be saying that the Nasi Chabad is the unquestioned leader of Chabad, but not all the Jews. However based on my experience all Lubavichers believe that each Nasi Chabad is Nasi for Klal Yisrael. Please clarify.To ARSo
I’m specifically referring to Coffee, ujm, and lostspark. Read their posts and the venom comes tjrough. As for others you’re right they simply disagree with my positions. Btw you never provided the Hey Jude posting. Don’t sweat it.
Dear Arso,
The rationale to the Lubavitcher’s mind is that term ‘The Rebbe’ means one who spreads Toras Hachassidus. Since the rebbe of the other chassidim is not doing that, it must be that they are talking about the Chabadtzker Rebbe.
This kind of thinking is much more common in religious groups than people realize. We assume everyone means the same ‘Gedolei Hador’ and ‘Those that brought Torah to America’ and ‘Talmidei Chaachamim’ and ‘Klei Kodesh’. But there is a lot of difference. The more obvious the different meanings, the more we tend to think that the other groupthink is out of the pale. But these labels really carry no weight. You can even refer to your local dropout as the Gadol Hador. It won’t have any effect.
Dear Arso,
NObody said that it means having equal powers to Hashem. But what does it mean?
Can anyone here point out a godol beYisroel over the last generations who pushed his greatness to the forefront as much as the Lubavicher rebbe did?
I’m not referring to shitos, certainly the Satmar Rebbe did that by ignoring all other gedolei Yisroel’s opinions about Zionism and the State of Israel. I’m talking about the way, as far as I can tell, only the Lubavicher rebbe called himself a novi, only he considered himself Mashiach and only he considered himself (non-existent) Nosi Hador.
The rebbes that I have come in contact with – and over many years they have been more than a few – all exuded humiiity and shiflus. Yes, they knew they were leaders of (in some cases) thousands of chassidim, and they knew that they had to lead with a strong hand at times, but none of them ever gave me a feeling, whether in my personal contact with them or when I learnt their divrei Torah, that they personally were special and greater than other leaders.
n0m, regardless of what Lubavichers may or may not think, to say that when other chassidim say “the Rebbe” they are referring to Lubavich is ridiculous. Go and listen to them and you’ll see it’s not true.
It’s one thing to say that other chassidim all believe that the Lubavicher rebbe is the greatest – and I have heard that many times – because since you can’t really know what someone believes you can make any claim you want. But to say that they are talking about Lubavich when they are clearly not is plain stupid.
To 2scents
You make a terrific point which I’d like to expand on. In a perfect world both sides would present their argumemts honestly and we ithout rancor. But this site isn’t a perfect world. Many of tje pafticipants lie and/or present opinions as facts. Exacerbating the problem is that when they’re called out, they either deny what they’ve done or avoid the subject. It can be frustrating but most of the posters have been part of this site for years and tbey’re not going to change. I think the moderators have done a great job maintaining some sense of decorum I previously wrote in a different venue and it devolved into cheap name calling. One guy decided I was a Christian missionary who was angry at Chabad for stealing his prospective clients.
“Non existent nassi hador”
Actually Rashi speaks about a nassi hador (is it leinei kol Yisrael?) “Yisrael nikraim Moshe uMoshe Nikra Yisrael ki nassi hador hu kichol hador ki hanassi hu hakol”
Remember from chitas
Along those lines I say The Rebbe, because The Rebbe took his responsibility as Nassi HaDor and was there to help every Jew who needed help weather bgashmius uvruchnius.
Many Jews (not just Lubavitcher) streamed to The Rebbe for yechidus/ dollars etc
Ik I didn’t finish work Avira yet but this was too easy
To Avira and YB:
I don’t have much time but in short- yes as Avira said, our Rebbe helps us connect better to Hashem and it’s actually a mitzvah to do so. Uvo sidbak- to Him you shall cleave. How? By connecting to Talmidei Chachamim.No one likes megillas but you can look up hilchos T”T 5:5 (Rambam) on what reverence for a Rebbe is supposed to be.
As for cunins statement- he’s not The Rebbe but a very solid yid and chossid. And I’m supposing he meant The Rebbe rubbing the world (as a clear agent of Hashem )
as opposed to Trump/Biden/ the elites or whatever earthly agents there are lhavdil.Obviously not in contrast to Hashem- a Rebbe is completely batul to Hashem (as yb put it “avdus”, we say batul)
How do we connect better through our Rebbe?
-A niggun off The Rebbe reveals the yechida shebinefesh and helps the other parts of the Neshama to have strength to do what’s right– Through the Torah of The Rebbe, I learn and understand much more about Hashem’s power, greatness and Self, which strengthens my yiras shomayim.
I also know what my mission is in this generation (specialized on top of keeping Torah and mitzvos)
And my personal shlichus
Observing The Rebbe also teaches me more yiras shomayim- if that’s what Hashem’s servant is like, how much more so Hashem, learn proper middos, how to be mechanech and so much more
Dear Two,
Very much agreed. The point is very much to go around in circles and dodge the question of why yidden are hating on each other.
Some of that list yes and some no. The yes ones obscure the fact that they came around to the no group later.
CS
“Actually Rashi speaks about a nassi hador (is it leinei kol Yisrael?) “Yisrael nikraim Moshe uMoshe Nikra Yisrael ki nassi hador hu kichol hador ki hanassi hu hakol”
Remember from chitas
Along those lines I say The Rebbe, because The Rebbe took his responsibility as Nassi HaDor and was there to help every Jew who needed help weather bgashmius uvruchnius.
Many Jews (not just Lubavitcher) streamed to The Rebbe for yechidus/ dollars etc”
You can call the Rebbe with whatever title you want, but it seems unreasonable to compare the Rebbe to Moshe Rabeinu. For many reasons, but for one, Hashem appointed Moshe Rabeinu the position he had, not a group of people, and not because many Jews met with him for dollars or yechidus.
While you might hold the Rebbe in high regard, claiming that he shares the same level as Moshe Rabbeinu in terms of being recognized as the Nassi of the entire Jewish nation doesn’t seem accurate.
To Menachem Shmei
Still waiting for your answer. Looks like there’s a checkmate in your near future.
Dear Arso,
“Can anyone here point out a godol beYisroel over the last generations who pushed his greatness to the forefront as much as the Lubavicher rebbe did?”
No comment.
I have a low opinion of your posts. A lot of ‘the eye of the beholder’ judgements.
I know one special talmid chacham who told me that he couldn’t stand being around Rav Dovid Feinstein ZT”L. Because Rav Dovid humbled himself very much and he hated the feeling of being superior to Rav Dovid.
Menachem, funny you should say that about the Lubavicher rebbe’s anivus. On the one hand you all say that he meant himself when he said his father-in-law was Mashiach, a novi and nossi hador. Then you tell us that he was talking about his father-in-law only. You can’t have it both ways.
Was/is he Mashiach, a novi and nossi hador, or not? If yes, how do you know if he didn’t mean himself when he said those things about the Rayatz.
I don’t think you’re fooling anyone. And i don’t think he was an anav at all.
You write that he didn’t want to become rebbe, and resisted it for a year. Have you read Gurary’s book where he writes openly about the fights between the L rebbe and his brother-in-law Shmaryahu Gurary? And have you read Larger than Life who writes that because his parents knew that the L rebbetzin would not be able to have children, they made a condition of the shidduch that their son would be the next rebbe?
To CS (are you really the long-departed ChabadShlucha?), of course there WAS a concept of Nossi Hador. But not for the last thousand years… until the L rebbe reinvented it and applied it to himself.
Dear Arso,
“But to say that they are talking about Lubavich when they are clearly not is plain stupid.”
It makes sense to me that you would say that. Because you are totally missing the boat here. You seem to have gone to the airport instead.
Nobody is forced to have a Chabad viewpoint. But it is impossible to make any sense of these statements without putting them in their proper context. Learning from a Chabad viewpoint, does not make one Chabad.
I am so bored here, I am getting numb to the nuance. We don’t do this with Gur, Satmar, or any other group, that has way less tradition and is even farther out there. If you want to know about Satmar or Gur, you learn their stuff. You don’t accost some stranger and hold him/her up for answers. It socially unacceptable.
Here is a FAQ:
Q Chabad is kefirah.
R These ideas are mainstream.Q They take it too far.
R Come learn it.Q That is a silly pshat.
R This is our view.Q Nobody can really think that.
R The comprehensive theory sells itself.Q You can’t learn this stuff without…
R We do and did it all the time.Q I am not becoming Chabad.
R We didn’t offer. You asked.Q Chabad is always in my face.
R Everybody is included in our worldview.Q What makes you elitist
R You decided that by not educating yourself.To CS
“As for Cunin’s statement about the Rebbe running the world. I suplose he mrans as Hashem’s agent.” Nice move CS, mention Hashem and get the snags to sirrender. Here’s the problem. Why does the Rebbe run the world as Hashem’s agent? What makes him special? Because you guys decided that he’s the Nasi hador, the Moshe Rabbeini Hador, and all the other Chabad Bubbe Maasehs. The point is that when you claim that the Rebbe runs the world you’re declating that he’s elevated over everyone else, and mainstream Jewry categorically rejects this.
Nomesorah,
Not to get dragged into an endless back and forth (I’ve held myself back until now) but what did you mean with this statement: “of course there WAS a concept of Nossi Hador. But not for the last thousand years… until the L rebbe reinvented it and applied it to himself”. So you admit it existed as a concept, but subsequently died out at some unknown time until the Rebbe discovered it?2scents:
“אין דור שאין בו כמשה״ (ב״ר פנ״ו ז׳In the Zohar: אתפשטותא דמשה שבכל דרא ודרא
So we mean the Moshe Rabbeinu of the generation.
n0m,
“ We don’t do this with Gur, Satmar, or any other group, that has way less tradition and is even farther out there.”
Seems a bit dishonest to make such a statement.
Most chasidus are a continuation of pre war Europe.
Chabad, can’t make the same claim. It seems like a more recent change to traditional ideas, that are still very uncommon in most of all other circles.
CS, just because someone accepts responsibility to help every Jew it makes him a Nasi Ha’Dor? This is ridiculous. And then there are many Nsiei Ha’Dor according to your definition. Rav Shach included.
Cs, you’re avoiding the issue – a religious jew wants the world to know that putin, biden, and netanyahu do not run the world, rather Hashem does. That’s giluy kovod malchus shomayim, something we daven for 3x a day and spend the entire Rosh Hashanah asking for…vehofa behadar gaon uzcha…we yearn for the world to recognize Hashem, because of the tzar hashechina, because of the thicj hester panim that it puts us in, and simply because we love Hashem and we wish everyone knew about him.
Cunin didn’t say that. He wants the goyishe world to see(and he said it emphatically) and know clearly that it’s the (Lubavitcher) rebbe who runs the world.
If he were speaking about chasidim knowing this esoteric idea of being a merkava to Hashem, being honored by Him as the figurehead leader while Hashem is really in charge…. would he say that the whole world should know it? Wouldn’t that be, to say the least, misplaced priorities? Shouldn’t they first believe in Hashem at all?
Is chabads longing for the world to acknowledge their rebbe more potent than their desire for the world to accept Hashem?
Please give a clear answer. Or you can just say cunin is wrong, which means the mainstream head of wesr coast chabad is espousing a hashkofa very wrong in the eyes of the Torah.
And if that’s where cunin is, what does that say about the rest of the community who looks to him as a leader?
@menachem
“All those things you quoted were actually said about his father-in-law. His anivus was so great, that he never publicly called himself the Rebbe. He constantly said that the Rebbe and nossi was his father-in-law.”
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Careful and objective perusal of ALL his referrals to his shver troughout his hanhaga , show that he DID use referral to his Shver as a convenient vehicle to hint to himself . I used to be naive , but made a uturn on this .
Think that your being a hasid of his , precludes you of objectivity in this regard …@nomesorah
‘We don’t do this with Gur, Satmar, or any other group, that has way less tradition and is even farther out there’
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Come on … This is so ridiculous , its not even funny .
You not even getting it after 20 pages …
Gur and Satmar ? Have they changed Ikarei Emuna like used socks ?
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Tradition ?
Come on….
What tradition is there in Neo habad ? Argument is NOT about the old parts of habad . Its about the NEW parts . There is no tradition on those whatsoever.
There is a tradition AGAINST them ….All this talk is cheap. Torah has a very simple way to see if someone is a Navi: let him make a prediction (within certain limits) and if it comes out, he is a real Navi…
This sounds too easy: out of 100 rebbes, predicting next year stock market or pandemic, one might end up being true, how is this test even practical?!
The answer is probably that the nearby posuk says that punishment for a false navi is death penalty, so you got to be pretty sure to make a claim. So, whoever’s Rebbe passes this test, we should all follow!
@ always ask
Habad claimed back in 1991 that their rebbi performed that feat by predicting that NO ONE in Israel would be harmed in the first gulf war .
Which serves as ironclad proof that he is a Navi .
ounded
. They conveniently forgot that Jewish lawyer in Petah Tiqva who died from a direct missile hit , not to mention countless others who indirectly died as a result of the missiles , in addition to the many Jewish wounded.
Rambam – “ALL details of prediction have to come fruition . Even a small detail cant be omitted.”
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If that would be a proof , then it should serve as qualification for the opposite of a navi emet and its results ….Menachem…, why do you think Chabad has so many misnagdim, way more than other Chassidic groups?
Menachem, being a talmid/chasid of anyone can make you unable to see their mistakes or chisronos, and that’s not necessarily a bad thing. There were people who were against my main rebbe, but I didn’t care and chose to judge him favorably, even in one case where it was challenging, and I’m forced to admit that he made a mistake.
As I’ve mentioned a few times, it doesn’t concern me if the Lubavitcher rebbe was a tzadik or not; what I’m concerned with are the issues at hand.
I will add though that rav Nachman of Breslov said that the velt makes two mistakes about tzadikim: one is that they can’t make mistakes, and the other is that if they have made a mistake, that shows that they were never a tzadik to begin with. When i acknowledge that my rebbe was capable of making a mistake, that in no way impacts my fidelity to him, his psakim or his teachings.
Why can’t a Lubavitcher accept that the Lubavitcher rebbe may have made mistakes?
Mistake doesn’t mean aveirah by the way. I’m well aware of the tanyas definition of a tzadik.
@menachem
‘Think that your being a hasid of his , precludes you of objectivity in this regardI can say the same about you being a misnaged.’
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Wrong . I was not a misnaged. Far from it . I Was an Omed Min HaTsad. Did not understand what all those people wanted from habad . And had sympathy for the [apparent] victim of unwarranted accusations.
Nevertheless came to that conclusion.
So it seems that you agree that you are not qualified ?
as your only rejoinder is that I wasn’t any better ?
Suggest you study all the utterances [and their effects on the hasidim] FROM A NEUTRAL STANCE , [or even better – imagine satmar or rav shach would have said them] and tell us – honestly –
whether naivete in this case corresponds to the objective truth ….@ menachem
I used to be naive , but made a uturn on this .Why?
Because you studied and listened to so many of his talks that you realized what he really meant?
Or because you heard so many one-line excerpts of his statements?
Or because you heard so much anti-Chabad rhetoric?
—————-
None of the above .
It probably a result of my maturing and seeing the world as it is and not as I would like it to be , combined with the weight of the evidence ..
[btw Listening to his talks is irrelevant to this question]CS: “because The Rebbe took his responsibility as Nassi HaDor”
That is weird! Is that the same as Trump lehavdil considering himself President? You don’t become something because you decide to be that thing. Unless, of course, you are extremely woke.
n0m to me: “I have a low opinion of your posts. A lot of ‘the eye of the beholder’ judgements.”
I see. Your posts are direct from Sinai, then. We are all offering our opinions. That’s what all these threads are about.
And your reply to my saying how chauvinistic and wrong it is that L chassidim say that when we others say “the Rebbe” we are referring to the L rebbe and not to our own, does not make any sense in “the eye of this beholder”. Ask us who we mean, and you will hear that you are wrong.“Gur, Satmar, or any other group, that has way less tradition and is even farther out there”
??? Gur, Satmar, Belz, Lelov, Tzanz and all others have traditions as far-reaching as Lubavitch, and even more so when you consider all the innovations made in Lubavich.
And what do you mean by “is even farther out there”?Yechi: “So you admit it [the title Nossi Hador] existed as a concept, but subsequently died out at some unknown time until the Rebbe discovered it?”
Try replacing the word “discovered it” with “reinvented it AND APPROPRIATED IT FOR HIMSELF even though it’s not applicable today”.
CS: “In the Zohar: אתפשטותא דמשה שבכל דרא ודרא”
The seforim that I have seen where this is quoted explain it to mean that the ispashtusa deMoshe is in the entire generation, not in only one individual. Perhaps you can cite me non-Lubavich sources that explain it the way Lubavich undrestands it. Btw, I am not being facetious here. I would really like to know if there are sources.
YankelBerel, I want to thank you for saving me the time by writing such coherent posts, and probably doing a better job than I could!
To Menachem
At the beginning of Dr. Berger’s book he said that he initially had a good impression of Chabad. It was the same with me. A group of Lubavich boys would come to our shul on Simchas Torah to dance with us. They seemed to embody Ahavas Yisroel. Everythi g changed for me in 2003 when I began attending a certain shul whose Rabbi was militaristically Chabad. He would mock Gedolim on a regular basis. I’ll share a quote, “The Rebbe can’t be compared to any Rabbi. He can only be compared to other Neviim.” And I’ll give you another one, “The Rebbe is the reason the world was created.” On top of this I lisrened to Rabbi Butman on Motzi Shabbos and he acted as if non Lubavichers don’t exist. Finally I read Dr. Berger’s book and the story was clear. And it gets clearer and clearer that Chabad is not a valid form of Judaism. Now it’s certainly true that there are nice Lunavichers, juzt as it’s true that there are not nice people in all strains of Judaism. But no group lives by postulates that are anathema to Judaism as does Chabad and that’s why we challenge them.
Avira, If you have issues with Hashem’s complete dominion revealing itself through a human/ humans, I’m curious what you think of Moshiach? After all, it says about him that וירד מים עד ים ומנהר עד אפסי ארץ.
Some people tend to obsess more about The Rebbe because once you connect to the Rebbe, your connection to Hashem will be so much deeper and enriched.
Personally I’m so grateful and excited that I have a
doable path laid out for myself on working towards becoming a tzadik of Tanya and beyond, and the motivation for doing it- because of my Rebbe.I haven’t seen anything else that would come close in giving me this gift and excitement for Hashem.
Just so you know the constant theme in Chassidus is Dirah btachtonim. The first stop for dirah btachtonim is that the Yid himself should be an expression of Hashem in this world. On a practical level- every thought speech and action. Including and especially divrei rishus. And beyond into the proper feelings for Hashem, kavana etc
Arso:
“That is weird! Is that the same as Trump lehavdil considering himself President? You don’t become something because you decide to be that thing. Unless, of course, you are extremely woke.”Look, for the definition of Nassi- see the post Menachem posted earlier- which came from The Rebbe.
As Mimale Makom of The Frierdiker Rebbe, the Rebbe filled his role in this regard as well. Or you can say he never saw himself as his own Rebbe- it seems whatever directives he gave and brochos etc etc were all told to him by The Frierdiker Rebbe, whether by the Ohel or elsewhere- that’s also true. In any case that’s what I meant.
As far as there being only one- dunno- it is true that Tanya says Roshei Bnei Yisrael shebidoram in the plural. So it would make sense that Moshe could also be in the plural. I’m not sure if Nassi hador means there’s only one the same way Moshe could be plural as well. I don’t really care either.
Arso: rereading your post- please show/ quote me where Ispashtusa dMoshe is in the plural (besides for the fact we all have a spark of Moshe within us, I know that. As well as a spark of Moshiach, Navi etc.)
But from what I learned, there’s the mini version in all Yidden and the macro version in the Rebbe.
It would seem from rashi I think it is – Shmuel bdoro kMoshe bdoro etc- yes there were many leaders I’m sure, but one was highlighted as the go to for the generation
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