August 2, 2023 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #2213080
At one point, many rebbes were convinced that The Rebbe was about to reveal himself as moshiach. Though they moved away from him while he was still at the peak of his abilities.
This still reverbarates behind the scenes, and has an effect on many issues in chareidi society.
I don’t know who brought about more learning, it’s very debatable.
Though it would seem that Rav Shach was the greater hogeh batorah.August 2, 2023 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #2213120
Okay, now I have my answer. Nomesorah can’t be Chabad because no Lubavicher will ever say anything positive about Rav Shach, much less say that he was superior to the Rebbe in any way. I’m still confused, however by Nomesorah’s earlier post in which he states that heretical statements do not affect a person’s religious status.August 2, 2023 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #2213133
Every time I read a post by qwerty, I do this: 🤦♂️
You know what? I’ll let you proudly brag to all your friends that you “checkmated” another Lubavitcher, because my head breaks when I try to contemplate your profound diyukim.August 2, 2023 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #2213137
I am not Chabad at all. I have visited for a day in various Chabad Yeshivos and Shuls.
You are way off of normative chareidi outlook if you think Chabad and Christianity are two but yet the same. Almost everyone considers Cabad full Yidden. They count them for a minyan. They break bread with them. We trust their kashrus and shechita, geirus, kiddushin and gittin. I could go on for a thousand words describing how Chabad is functioning within the rest of Klal Yisroel. You don’t need to be a Lubavitcher to say this. Take a look around. It’s a fact. What makes Satmar or Ger or Skver not Christianity?
Secret societies do not come from Christianity. They come from fools who can’t find the truth and push conspiracies forever. They rise and grumble multiple times in each generation and they keep rolling into the next cycle. Jews are not immune from this.
I would post one more line to explain what I stand for. But it would be misconstrued.August 2, 2023 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #2213140
N0m: Where do you dream these up at? Can you name at least three of these rabbis you refer to that allegedly were expecting him to reveal himself?August 2, 2023 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #2213153
I’m glad you clarified that you’re not Chabad, As for your insinuation that I am equating Chabad with Christianity. I never made such a statement. What I did say is that Lubavichers treat the Rebbe like a god. They attribute powers to him as if he’s different than anyone who’s ever lived. I don’t think that any rational person would challenge that position.August 2, 2023 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #2213156DaMosheParticipant
Qwerty, I’ll say it, because I had a rebbe in yeshiva who told us straight out. He said Lubavitchers who think the Rebbe is Mashiach are like Christians, because they are waiting for a second coming.
He told us not to count them towards a minyan. I saw him take a bottle of wine that was going to be used for a Sheva brachos, and when another Rebbe told him that the Rav giving the hechsher on it was a meshichist, he spilled out the entire bottle.August 2, 2023 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #2213158
DaMoshe: Is that’s a normative position, you and the rebbe would have no problem saying which Rebbe that is. In fact, you would both be proud to name him and make it well known this position of his.
So, DaMoshe, what is the name of said Rebbe and which Yeshiva?August 3, 2023 6:11 am at 6:11 am #2213182
DaMoshe, I don’t know if you are just trying to stir the flames or you actually agree with the rebbe who you quoted.
If the latter is correct, then here are some Rambams that you should be made aware of:
Regarding discussing with Lubavitchers about their ideology in the CR, the Rambam writes (הלכות עבודה זרה פ”ב ה”ה):
ישראל שעבד עבודת כוכבים הרי הוא כעובד כוכבים לכל דבריו . . וכן האפיקורסים מישראל אינן כישראל לדבר מן הדברים . . ואסור לספר עמהן ולהשיב עליהן תשובה כלל שנאמר “ואל תקרב אל פתח ביתה”.
Additionally, as n0mesora pointed out, it would be close to impossible to live a life in a normal community without some sort of Chabad influence, be it kashrus (who may be the mashgichim for exotic ingredients from far flung places?), yuchsin, etc.
You may have to follow this Rambam (הלכות דעות רפ”ו):
ואם היו רעים וחטאים שאין מניחים אותו לישב במדינה אלא אם כן נתערב עמהן ונוהג במנהגם הרע יצא למערות ולחוחים ולמדברות. ואל ינהיג עצמו בדרך חטאים כענין שנאמר “מי יתנני במדבר מלון ארחים”
(now you might have to go do teshuva for getting a blessing from me!)August 3, 2023 6:21 am at 6:21 am #2213184
Rav Shach and Dr. Berger said this clearly. There are many Rabbis and laymen who agree with their positions. There’s no need to name them.August 3, 2023 8:45 am at 8:45 am #2213249
qwerty: Rav Shach does not say that.
And whether David Berger says it or not is as relevant as whether Dr. Anthony Fauci says it or not.August 3, 2023 9:21 am at 9:21 am #2213272
I have heard it from several Elder Rosh Yeshivos. Some mentioned specific names some didn’t. It’s easy to figure it out.
RavShach may not have said it, but it was the cause for him to take up all his battles in Chareidi Israel Public Life.
I am surprised that you do not know whom DaMoshe is referring to.August 3, 2023 9:21 am at 9:21 am #2213274
There is an opinion that messianic Lubavitchers are complete apikorsim, which is that of rav menasheh klein in a teshuva.
From what I’ve seen he’s the only posek I’ve seen who says that; rav belsky said that they’re just meshugoim, and that one shouldn’t rely on them due to mental incompetence, but not that they are pasul for anything due to their beliefs.
Elohisten, including those who believe in god-in-a-body ideology, however, are ovdei avodah zara and are pasul for everything. Indeed, he told me that the OU checks every Lubavitcher shochet to see if they are in this category.August 3, 2023 9:23 am at 9:23 am #2213275
You did not say that, it was a different poster. Now it is two posters. They are not even making an argument. Maybe when they say Christianity, they mean Breslov or Brisk. Okay, Chabad is like Breslov or Brisk.
You say that Lubavitchers treat their rebbe like a god. The Gemara tells us to have awe of our masters like the Awe of Heaven. Both Lubavitchers on this thread admitted that the Rebbe could have made a mistake.
Chabad atributes special powers to tzaddikim and they think of their rebbe as a real big tzaddik. this is not very unique to Chabad. Though they do have more of a thought system for it. If you have a problem with it, take it up with the Sefer Tanya. If the sefer is no good, than go check all the classics and see who agrees with the Tanya. It’s a sugya to learn no different than any other.
My position in regard to Chabad is that there is no reason to analyze their beliefs. Their positions are no less absurd than Satmar or Ger or Skver. And atleast they have a legitimate history of these concepts and can trace the outlines of their ideas throughout the centuries.
Since you are the one attacking, it is on you to explain why it is problematic for people to have absurd ideas. And why we should debate them as if they need to drop it or face excommunication.August 3, 2023 9:46 am at 9:46 am #2213292
Why does the OU not check every yid to see if he is an apikores?
I understand that it is a business decision, not a halachic one.August 3, 2023 10:12 am at 10:12 am #2213309
Thanks for clarifying your position and I’ll gladly respond. You’re arguing that Lubavichers are like all other Chassidim in that they attribute godlike qualities to their Rebbe. That’s disingenuous. No Chassidic sect claims that their Rebbe is Moshiach, that their Rebbe is/was a Novi, that their Rebbe is still alive despite the fact that he was interred almost thirty years ago. As for why we should be troubled by their questionable beliefs and practices that’s simple. They proselytize. The Rabbi of the YI in my community is Chabad. I attended that shul about twenty years ago. This Rabbi constantly mocked non-Chabad Rabbis including the Chafetz Chaim, Vilna Gaon, and Rav Aharon Kotler. I will quote that Rabbi, “The Rebbe is the reason the world was created.” Now I know that Nomesorah will posit that he’s a lone wolf, but that’s nonsense. Rabbi Butman clearly articulated the belief in some, but not all Chabad circles, “When the Besht arrived, Gemara-based Judaism became null and void, and when the Baal Hatanya arrived all other Chassidim became irrelevant. Houston we have a problem no we have two problems. The second is that someone like you who’s clearly bright can’t or doesn’t want to accept the obvious truth. It seems that you’re simply a contrarian.August 3, 2023 10:14 am at 10:14 am #2213314
N0m: Kindly share the names you allegedly were told. (Unless the next line will be that they are top secret national security because if known “the bad guys will beat up those rabbis.”)August 3, 2023 10:16 am at 10:16 am #2213315
Avira, None of the shochtim at Rubashkin’s were problematic?August 3, 2023 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm #2213340
What’s your fascination with collecting names of anti Chabad Rabbis. No one can deny that there are many in that corner just as no one can deny that many Rabbis are on Chabad’s side. This venue allows for discussion of issues, but Lubavichers recognize that they can’t answer any of the challenges raised against them so they try to change or muddle the subject.
You assert that the OU screening Chabad shochtim is a business decision. That’s illogical. The OU would potentially be opening itself up to discrimination lawsuits if it didn’t have valid reason to perform such vetting.August 3, 2023 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #2213349
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qwerty: I have no idea what you’re rattling about. Do you have any specific names of rabbis or not? If so, please list a handful.August 3, 2023 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #2213377
The RY who told me the whole story is long gone. I don’t see any point in publicizing politics from long before I was born. Maybe I would give one example.August 3, 2023 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #2213378
Shortly after I posted that, I realized that I’m wrong on that one. There is a lot of precedent on removing shochtim over even more trivial beliefs.
I don’t know if there can be such a lawsuit. My point remains that they don’t vet every shochet for his take on the ikkarim.August 3, 2023 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #2213379
You are aware of the different outcome of Chassidus for Lubavitch. But you are not getting into what makes it so. For all you know, The Rebbe Is Moshiach is the authentic outcome of Chabad.
1) Everybody today is careful about ‘My Leader Is Moshiach’ statements because they don’t want to be compared to Chabad. So that isn’t evidence. There are yeshiva bochurim that are just as enchanted with their Rosh Yeshiva as a Meshichist.
2) Paranormal stories that lend credence to tzaddikim being neviim are in abundance. I have not heard Chabadtzkers saying the Rebbe was a prophet as a general statement.
3) Other Chassidim have claimed their Rebbe to be among the living dead. Lubavitch is the only large group to make such a claim. Please realize that they are the only large group to stay intact for thirty years without a rebbe. The question is what do they mean by this statement and is it rooted in Chassidus.
4) We are not bothered by what they do on the street. It’s benign. Chabad is not a threat to missionize anyone of us to Chabad as long as the subject knows anything. A lot (Not all.) of the anti Chabad is missing out on the basics. So I’m fine with it. Let Chabad open their eyes a bit.
5) That Rabbi is not a lone wolf. Degenerating other gedolim is a big issue which not all of Chabad is personally aware of. And too many of them deny it. But it is just as bad in other groups. Sometimes even worse.
6) So what if Chabad believes they are exclusive? That put’s them with Brisk (Each version separately.) Half of Ponovezh, Segments of Breslov, and several small cult like groups.
7) If you want to say we disagree on certain major points with Chabad, that is true. But it is even worse with some other groups. And disagreement is not automatically heresy. There is no schism between Chabad and the rest of Klal Yisroel.August 3, 2023 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #2213408
I have no intention of providing you with any list of anti-Chabad Rabbis because you’ll dismiss them like you wrote off Rabbi Dr. David Berger.
I think we should just agree to disagree because I don’t think we’re that far apart. You consider Chabad a crazy, Chassidic sect like other crazy, Chassidic sects, but I think that they’ve crossed the line to where they’ve made their Rebbe into a god. One other point that no one has brought up. There are serious questions with regard to Rabbi Schneersohn himself. He espoused views that contradict the Gemara. For example, he said that every Jew will be redeemed by Moshiach, with no exception, while the Gemara in Sanhedrin 111a states that only 0ne of 300,000 will be redeemed.August 3, 2023 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #2213427
qwerty: You don’t have any rabbis of higher caliber than Dr. Berger? (Which is presumably why he’s the one you’re citing.)August 3, 2023 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #2213411
btw i grew up chabad, i never heard anyone in chabad mention anything about the rebbe being g-d ch”v, the first time i heard of this claim, i was over 20 yrs old, and it was from litvaks, some how they got this crazy ideas in their head that thats what chabad preaches, maybe from dr berger or someone else who thinks כל התורה נתנה לעשות שנאה בעולם,August 3, 2023 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #2213441
Dr. Berger wrote in his book that eight prominent Chabad Rabbis averred that the Rebbe was “G-d clothed in human form.” A few years ago, David Lichtenstein, a Chabad lover, interviewed Dr. Berger on his radio show. Lichtenstein didn’t challenge Dr. Berger’s contention, rather he said that you can’t judge the entire movement because of a few nut job Rabbis. I don’t know what percentage of Chabad believes this insanity but don’t try denying that it doesn’t exist. By the way EditedAugust 4, 2023 8:26 am at 8:26 am #2213451
From the 1950s until 1989, no one went crazy about the Rebbe saying and publishing that a rebbe is עצמות ומהות אליין ווי ער האט זיך אריינגעשטעלט אין א גוף.
Just as no one went crazy that the Minchas Elazar wrote (דרכי חיים ושלום – מנהגי תענית):
מגודל נשמת הגה”ק הרמ”מ מרימנוב זי”ע כי הקב”ה לקח ד’ אותיות הוי’ כביכול וכרכן בלבוש זשיפיצ”ע ובלבוש ספאדי”ק ומזה נעשה הרבי ר’ מענדילי מרימאנוב
No one went crazy when the Noam Elimelech wrote (about how a tzaddik has power to heal – ואתחנן ד):
אך זאת צריך להבין, מאין הוא להצדיק שיכול לרפאות לחולה ע”י תפילתו ולהמשיך לו חיות שיחי’ האדם, והלא חיותו של הצדיק איננו לעולם, הלא הוא כמקריות והאיך דבר מקרה יכול ליתן חיות לאדם, השי”ת ב”ה וב”ש שהוא חי וקים לעד ולעולמי עולמים וחיותו הוא עצמיות יכול ליתן חיות לאדם המקרי, אבל לא כן האדם שאין חיותו עצמיות. אמנם אין זה כי אם מחמת שהצדיק מדבק עצמו בהש”י ב”ה, ונמצא חיותו דבוק בהחיים הנצחיים העצמיות, והוי ליה חיותו של הצדיק ג”כ עצמיות ונצחיות, כי עצם אל עצם יחד ידובקו, ולכן יש כח ביד הצדיק להמשיך חיות אל החולה.
No one went crazy when Rabbeinu Bachya wrote (שמות לג, ז):
מכאן שנקרא משה בשם המיוחד, וכן מצינו שנקרא יעקב בשם אל שנאמר . . . וכן מצינו בשם הצדיק שנקרא בשם המיוחד . . וכן מצינו במלך המשיח שנקרא בשם המיוחד שנאמר וזה שמו אשר יקראו הוי’ צדקנו . . וטעם הדבר בכלם כי הדבק בדבר נקרא על שם הדבר שידבק בו.
No one went crazy when the Alter Rebbe wrote in Tanya (ch. 2) that every Jew is literally a part of G-d (quoting from Iyov (as mentioned by Sechel), but in Tanya he adds the word “mamash” – literally).
No one went crazy when Chazal said that the face of the Master Havayeh is R’ Shimon Bar Yochai. Or that “Havayeh in His holy chamber” refers to R’ Yitzchak in the beis midrash of Keisarin.
Of course, like anything in Torah, these statements need explanation and understanding. Go learn the ideas. There is an entire sefer – על הצדיקים (by Rabbi Pewsner) – that explains this topic at length. If you’re interested, go learn it. Don’t start calling thousands of people עובדי ע”ז (ch”v) because their Rebbe’s sefer says something that you don’t understand.
P.S. Again, this has nothing to do with ch”v davening to the Rebbe in shmone esrei, or the other nonsense which does not exist, as I wrote countless times.
This is a 1950s statement which some people decided to pull out in 1989 and misunderstand, in order to push the political agenda of the time.August 4, 2023 8:27 am at 8:27 am #2213454
You’re obsessed with collecting names of Rabbis who criticized Chabad. Well, n0mesorah already gave you Menashe Klein and Rabbi Belsky. I’ll add Rav Aharon Feldman if it makes you happy.
Since Lubavichers never answer any of my questions maybe you’d like to take a stab at this one, “How could the Rebbe contradict an explicit statement in the Gemara, to wit, only one out of 300,000 Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach?” According to the Rebbe all Jews, including Bernie Sanders, Woody Allen and the like will be redeemed.August 4, 2023 11:30 am at 11:30 am #2213486
qwerty: False. No one asked about rabbis who “criticized” them. I can name you dozens of rabbis that criticized other groups or people for many various things.
In this case DaMoshe falsely claimed they they’re like Christians, and that some anonymous “rabbi” who he absolutely refuses to ever name said if they believe the rebbe is moshiach then you can’t count them for a minyan and you can’t drink their wine. You falsely claimed Rav Shach held that position. When I pointed out the falsity of that, the only one you still are rambling about is the YU Prof. Dr. David Berger. No one else, certainly of import, makes such an outlandish claim.
You can’t name names because their are no names for you to name.August 4, 2023 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm #2213487mdd1Participant
Menachem…, nobody went crazy? The Gra put the Chassidim into cheirem. Some of the things that you brought down are, basically, Christianity.August 4, 2023 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #2213495
Menachem, it wasn’t in the 80s that the god-in-a-body stuff became an issue; the chazon ish said it was avodah zara in the 50s.
Being called names of Hashem is not controversial; it’s like the king putting his crown on you as a symbol. There are other explanations. Same with the osios. No one is saying that the rebbe is Hashem.
Tzadikim can be rofeh cholim and mechayeh meisim; what’s your point? We still don’t daven to them or thibk that they can do so independently.
The zohar is obviously interpreted, as is chelek eloka mimaal; a jew isn’t god; they have a godly soul. Like a spark from a flame.
However the Lubavitcher rebbe wrote that one can pray at the kever of a tzadik because he is praying to god, because the tzadik os god wrapped in a body. Not much room for reinterpretation or allegorizing; he’s qualifying a halachik issue by saying that the rebbe is god, so you can pray to him.
There’s a huge difference between that elongated piece and the quotes you mentioned, which all refer to status and chashivus.August 4, 2023 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #2213496
It depends what going crazy means. I have heard of those who had complaints about the first sichah and were opposed to the messianism as early as the Fifties. I can’t even talk about 1989 because I wasn’t born yet. The vehemence against Chabad has gone down the last decade in my circles. It does seem to me that very few non Lubavitchers ‘go crazy’ about what the Rebbe or random Lubavitchers say. If you go through the archives of this site, you will see that there aren’t that many Chabad haters. It’s it only a couple of posters per thread. There are more posters that just want an easy explanation for some of the Rebbe’s statements. These aren’t easy statements to clarify and they are not interested in all the Chassidus that is needed to understand these concepts in their proper context. So, it is good fodder for a bunch of long and pointless threads. The real life haters that I know, mostly are not interested in learning anything ever. They just want to reaffirm their stances even though they don’t know the foundational concepts of their own hashkafa.August 4, 2023 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #2213501
I don’t understand the question. The Rebbe knew shas and knew how to learn. It is a contradiction. All of the Ramabam’s seven causes for contradiction can be applied here. And anyways, this is not even his chiddish. Rav Tzadok Hakohen has a long essay saying that we don’t follow this whole sugyah. And every Jew will be redeemed as well as having a share in the world to come.
Here is a better question. I have pointed out that there isn’t any reason for outsiders to be attacking the authenticity of Chabad. Why have you not defended yourself?August 4, 2023 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #2213506ARSoParticipant
(As you may have noticed I haven’t been around for a while. I used to be simply RSo but I lost all the login info so I had to make a new username etc.)
Menachem wrote: “Again, this has nothing to do with ch”v davening to the Rebbe in shmone esrei, or the other nonsense which does not exist, as I wrote countless times.”
You are very wrong. In that sicha the whole point that the Lubavicher rebbe was making was that there is nothing wrong with davening to a tzaddik because he is atzmus melubash baguf.August 4, 2023 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #2213520
Either the Chazon Ish said it or he didn’t. The Rebbe and The Chazon Ish were allowed to disagree.
You have ignored my points on your opinions about kivrei tzaddikim. I am even more against it then you. But you think that we are the majority. The problem is that every one was and is doing it. The Arizal was something close to the idea in sicha. To say oitherwise, would mean he was basically a tourist looking for a more exotic kever experience.August 4, 2023 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #2213521
You missed the difference. If you understand all the parts of ” there is nothing wrong with davening to a tzaddik because he is atzmus melubash baguf” than you know that it is not at an out of bounds idea.August 4, 2023 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #2213522
Nobody ever hinted at the idea that the Rebbe was sired by a god. If you think way out comparisons are exact, than you can be excused for thinking that you have a point.August 4, 2023 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #2213524DaMosheParticipant
First off, I must protest citing Rabbi Dr. Berger as only Dr, leaving off the fact that he is a Rabbi. He does have semicha, and should be recognized as such.
Joseph, I really don’t care whether you believe me or not, and I don’t care if you think my refusal to name the Rav means he’s not legitimate. I can assure you that he’s a widely respected, yeshivish Rav in Brooklyn. I just don’t want to put his name here, because I’ve never heard him say it publicly, other than when I heard him say it in Yeshiva.
I know that he told us he heard the same thing from a major Rav – I seem to remember that it was either R’ Belsky or R’ Reisman. Given Avira’s knowledge of R’ Belsky’s views, I would assume it was R’ Reisman. It was 20+ years ago, so I may be mistaken about that part.
I will say that yes, there was a time when I wouldn’t count a meshichist towards a minyan. I don’t automatically assume that every Chabadnik is a meshichist, but this person happens to have a sign on the front of his house, with a picture of the Rebbe, and the words “Moreinu melech hamashiach chai v’kayam!” We had 9 people waiting for a 10th and he walked in. I claimed I needed the bathroom before we could start and walked out. Another person walked in a minute later, so I walked back in and we started davening.
Joseph, you claimed that R’ Shach did not hold of the position. R’ Shach said that the Rebbe’s statement about a Rebbe being God clothed in a human body was Avodah Zara. He compared Chabad chassidim to followers of Shabtai Zvi. He called the Rebbe “the madman who sits in New York and drives the whole world crazy”.
His students won’t eat Lubavitch shechitah, claiming that they’re not frum Jews.
Do you really want to claim that R’ Shach didn’t hold of the views?August 4, 2023 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #2213525
Ujm, there is at least one posek(who happened to be chasidishe) who held that messianic Lubavitchers are apikorsim; that’s Rav menasheh klein, as i mentioned above.
But I haven’t heard anyone else say that. Everyone else I’ve heard from just thinks they’re meshugoim.
But the messianism is nothing compared to the deification issue, and it’s only getting worse.August 4, 2023 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #2213547
@qwerty613. someone asked a simililar question to the rebbe, the answer is printed in אגרות קודש חלק א אגרת פה, its a long answer with many sources, fascinating answer.
seforim which say that a neshama is a חלק אלקה ממעל
חדושי אגדות מהרש”א (שבת לב, א חלק אלקה בלי תיבת ממעל) פני יהושע ב”מ נח ב, מלבי”ם ישעי’ נ, א (ובכמה מקומות בספרו) העמק דבר ואתחנן ז, י ובכמה מקומות בספרו. ועוד
רמ”ק בספר הפרדס ריש שער לב, ראשית חכמה שער האהבה פ”א ופ”ב ובכ”מ שם. האריז”ל בשער רוח הקודש דף ל”ט ע”א בהוצאת ירושלים – צויין בהערות על תניא ולקוטי תורה פ’ בראשית. שפע טל (למקובל ר’ שבתי שעפטל הורוויץ, תלמיד הרמ”ק) בהקדמה ובארוכה בספרו נשמת שבתי הלוי (שער ד ואילך). של”ה בבית חכמה בסופו (ובכ”מ בספרו) יושר לבב (לבעל משנת חסידים) בית א חדר ד פ”ב. יערות דבש ח”א דרוש א. אור החיים ר”פ בראשית ועוד
it that enough sources? so whoever has an issue with the sicha, 1) they will need to answer all these sources 2) they will need to answer tanya perek 2 (which i understand today, no one has an isse with the baal hatanya, and as time goes on the same will be with the rebbe. (even today almost no one has issues with the rebbe (alot of litvaks say that r shach went against chabad mainly for saying the rebbe is moshiach cuz he weas worried that if it dosent happen, chabad will go off the derech, well now were almost 30 yrs later))).August 4, 2023 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #2213549
here are some quotes from this page:
because I had a rebbe in yeshiva who told us straight out. He said Lubavitchers who think the Rebbe is Mashiach are like Christians
Rav Shach and Dr. Berger said this clearly. There are many Rabbis and laymen who agree with their positions.
I have heard it from several Elder Rosh Yeshivos
Dr. Berger wrote in his book that eight prominent Chabad Rabbis averred that the Rebbe was “G-d clothed in human form.
so i assume some people are trying to claim that all litvaks think chabad are apikorsim, well guess what, the gra put chassidim in cherem, you know why? simply becasue lies were going around about chassidim, thats why already in the times of the tzemach tzedek, the machlokes was over, no one keeps the cherem anymore. so too today, lies were spread etc, history repeats itself.
btw check out my post on a different thread with sources that a neshama is a chelek eloka (including a maharsha and a pnei yehoshua) and @avira thats not what the rebbe says, the question is about asking tikunim from a rebbe dosent say davening there.August 5, 2023 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #2213559
In the last few posts I’m only discussing the Moshiach issue, nothing else. And I can certainly buy that the meshichists are meshugoim, even though that belief doesn’t make them an apikorus.
Now regarding Rav Menashe Klein zt’l, you can read his teshuva that you’re referring to in Mishne Halachos 17. He calls for the Yechi Melech Hamoshiach to stop, and he spends two pages calling on Lubavitchers to appoint a new rebbe. He does attack the idea that the Lubavitcher Rebbe will be Moshiach, but he doesn’t call it apikorsus. What he calls apikorsus is the Bizuy Talmid Chochom that he thinks the radical meshichists cause, when they insist on rubbing their mishugas in everyone’s faces. They turn the Rebbe into a joke, and that is what Rav Klein says is their apikorsus, by being mevaze the Lubavitcher Rebbe.
It is also noteworthy to mention that a few years after the Lubavitcher Rebbe passed away Rav Menashe Klein publicly said that the meshichists are not apikorsim, and that it is not forbidden to have the belief that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is still Moshiach.August 5, 2023 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #2213560
DaMoshe, I was only addressing the issue with those Lubatchers who claim that the Lubavitcher Rebbe will be Moshiach. That was the only point that you made in a previous comment of yours above that I responded to. qwerty falsely claimed Rav shach took this position, but Rav Shach did not refer to all Lubavitcher chasidim nor did Rav Shach refer to everyone who thinks the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Moshiach.
And, no, there can be no credibility to an anonymous claim that another anonymous alleged “widely respected, yeshivish Rav” said whatever the anonymous poster claims the anonymous Rav allegedly only once said in a yeshiva but never said publicly. Are we also supposed to accept that he’s “widely respected” and “yeshivish” even though you can’t remember which “major Rav” he said it over from?
But, DaMoshe, here is your most interesting epilogue when you write that “I will say that yes, there was a time when I wouldn’t count a meshichist towards a minyan.” So, please, then do share with us what changed? Why “there was a time” and not anymore? Why did you change and start accepting for a minyan someone who thinks the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Moshiach?August 5, 2023 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #2213613
Regarding the supposed “contradiction” from Sanhedrin 111a. –
The hekesh is from the Redemption of Mitzrayim- when all those Yidden (other than the 2 out of 600,000) died, and specifically during the plague of Darkness so that no one would have to witness this.
IOW, it is not that ch”v any Yidden were denied the ability to leave Egypt during the actual redemption, and had to stay back…all the Yidden who were alive at that time indeed left (and there is even a [midrash?] telling of how dasan and aviram stayed back for the parting of the sea, and Hashem split it open once again JUST for these two (reshayim though they were). – it’s a separate question how it is that they left Egypt, if indeed they were the reshayim that we know them to have been…
So too, as per the hekesh, we can conclude that all those Yidden who are not part of the 2/600,000 who will be alive for the redemption, will indeed be redeemed, whereas the rest will have to die some other way, presumably in a fashion unnoticed by the general public (as per the original redemption from Egypt)August 5, 2023 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #2213618
If you’re looking for a more source-based answer, here is what I got from a good friend of mine (who is much more knowledgeable than I am – I got this answer within minutes of me asking him…):
If you look in Shemos Rabbah – and the Halacha is like the Midrash in this case – in שמו”ר פ’ ג, ו it actually explains exactly the opposite of the way it’s described here
– if it means anything to you, the Rebbe has an in depth sicha on this Midrash – likkutei sichos 11 Parshas shemos, sicha 1.
Furthermore, there’s an iggeres (a letter) by the Rebbe on the topic on the matter – Igros Kodesh 1, ieggeres 85
I don’ thave access to my books right now or I’d gladly quote from there at least the sources…August 5, 2023 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #2213619
Sorry for the third post – I tried looking up the said Iggeres and found it here:
I don’t have time to read through it in depth, but a cursory browsing shows that there are MANY MORE sources which can be brought up as questions to the Rebbe’s claim, and the Rebbe goes through all the available sources in this letter to back up the claim that indeed all Yisroel will be redeemed, including reshoim… If you have the time it’s worth a look, and I’d love to hear your thoughts on the letter if/after you have done so.August 6, 2023 12:40 am at 12:40 am #2213664mdd1Participant
Sechel83, there is such a statement in the Zohar, but one has to understand it the right way, not the Christian way.
Ysiegel, when they say ” no Jew will be left behind…”, they mean literally so. They do not mean: anybody who survives the cataclysm will be saved.August 6, 2023 2:10 am at 2:10 am #2213666
I’ve sent a number of submissions in the last two days but they haven’t been posted. Instead, you’ve only posted from Lubavichers. Seems unfair. Especially since I’m responding to challenges.
Posta have been both deleted and approved from “both sides of the aisle”. Nasty personal attacks and overall mean-spirited personal comments are deleted. This is just a partial list of suggestions.
- The topic ‘Question of an ignorant, closed-minded Lubavitcher’ is closed to new replies.