August 6, 2023 8:15 am at 8:15 am #2213734
I understand that you’re trying to defend your Rebbe, but the fact is that no person can challenge an open statement by a Tanna of the Gemara. Let me add the following. The Rebbe said that when Moshiach comes pork will be kosher. I saw that statement in a Geulah pamphlet and then I spoke to a Chabad Rabbi who confirmed it. No human being can change any law of the Torah.August 6, 2023 9:23 am at 9:23 am #2213684
Qwert, plenty of the anti messianic and/or anti neo chabad posters are present; there’s no shortage of it. Almost everything i post gets approved; if something isn’t, it’s usually pretty offensive and personalAugust 6, 2023 11:42 am at 11:42 am #2213761
I appreciate your comment but I really don’t think I said anything that crossed the line, no name-calling, etc. Anyway, what they did post this morning is basically what was rejected last night. <yes, what was rejected-minus everything else.>
The point is simple, Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe is empowered to change the Torah as he sees fit. Hopefully, n0mesorah will accept that as proof that Chabad stands apart from other Chassidic sects.August 6, 2023 11:47 am at 11:47 am #2213756DaMosheParticipant
Joseph, when I said “There was a time”, I meant there was a single instance where it occurred. Thankfully, I’ve never had that situation since, so it was only the one time.
As for who my Rebbe quoted, yes, I don’t remember exactly. But I do remember my Rebbe saying it, and as I said, I witnessed him spill out an entire bottle of wine at a sheva brachos because the name of the Rav on the bottle was a meshichist.August 6, 2023 11:50 am at 11:50 am #2213759
“The Rebbe said that when Moshiach comes pork will be kosher. I saw that statement in a Geulah pamphlet and then I spoke to a Chabad Rabbi who confirmed it. No human being can change any law of the Torah.”
In general, I’m trying to refrain from responding to qwerty’s posts, since his unique style breaks my head a shtikel (as I’ve mentioned before, you have the full right to put me on the list of Lubavitchers whom you “checkmated”. Scroll of honor)
However, I couldn’t help responding to this post:
I advise you to get off the internet and open some Jewish books. Start learning from the basics before accusing others.
P.S. To the other posters: Obviously, I will not generalize and say that all litvishers are like this, since I know from the coffeeroom that most of you are very knowledgeable in many areas of Torah despite our various disagreements.August 6, 2023 11:51 am at 11:51 am #2213765
Qwert, i believe it’s an arizall or a zohar that writes that the chazir will chew its cud when moshiach comes. The Torah doesn’t change cv”s, it’s the chazir that changes into a kosher animal.August 6, 2023 11:51 am at 11:51 am #2213771
On the topic of pork, do your research before attacking a tremendous talmid chacham and tzaddik as “going against Chazal” (ר”ל):
Likkutei Sichos vol. 12 pg. 75:
עתיד חזיר ליטהר
מרז”ל בלשון זה הובא: בשל”ה פ’ חיי שרה. מדרש תלפיות ענף חזיר בשם ר’ בחיי. ס’ הקנה (?) לקו”ת [ראה ל,ב] ד”ה וכל בניך ס”ג. קהלת יעקב מעמ’ חזיר. בס’ הברית ח”א מ”כ, דרך אמונה פל”א בשם מדרש תנחומא (כ”כ בס’ נפש חיים) – (וראה ג”כ עשרה מאמרות מאמר חקור דין ח”ד פי”ג. אור החיים פ’ שמיני). –
בלשון: שעתיד הקב”ה להחזירו לישראל (לנו) בחיי שמיני י”א ז’ (לנו). שו”ת הרדב”ז ח”ב תתכ”ח ומגן דוד להרדב”ז ט’ (לישראל), אור יקרות (לישראל להיתרו הראשון). ראש אמנה למהר”י אברבנאל פי”ג, ריטב”א קידושין מט,א. רקנטי פ’ שמיני, ישועות משיחו בשם בראשית רבה (כ”כ בשד”ח) תורת משה להחת”ס. מאו”א ח,ו (חזיר נק’ ק”נ ולכן במיתוקה עתידה לחזור ותהי’ קדושה).
כמה פי’ במרז”ל אלו נקבצו בשדי חמד: כללים אות ג’ עו’. פאת השדה ג’ ז’, ואות ה’ ח’, שיורי פאה ג’ ז’.
ואחרי שכל הנ”ל שקו”ט במאמר זה – תמוה דעת היפ”ת ויק”ר פי”ג ג’ – הובא בס’ ערכי הכינויין לבעהמ”ס סדר הדורות – שמאמר זה לא הי’ ולא נברא!August 6, 2023 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #2213791
There’s a famous chakirah in yeshivos if the kosher simanim are a cause or a sign; meaning if a cow is born without split hooves, is it still kosher? Do the 2 simanim cause the animal to be kosher, or are they merely signs of a kosher species, but whatever happens in individual animals is irrelevant.
The future taharah of the chazir implies that the simanim are causes, not signs.August 6, 2023 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #2213795YsiegelParticipant
The Rebbe made it a point to base everything he said strictly on Torah sources. I already made mention in my post(s) that the MIDRASH (by Rabbah, a Tanah) is cholek explicitly on that Gemara, and in this instance halacha is like the Midrash. And if you were to even so much as glance at the iggeres that I sourced/linked, you would see that the Rebbe doesn’t ch”v make up his own views regarding these topics, but bases them on TORAH SOURCES like other Tannaim etc. who resolve the difficulty… You know how pilpulim work don’t you? Just like some Lubavitchers on here like mentioning explicit Gemaras but then you and others bring up other Gemaras to explain their misunderstandings…yeah, kinda like that in a way, but much more lamdishAugust 6, 2023 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #2213820
You’ve decided to defend the Rebbe vis a vis the Chazir’s future status. Fine, I’ll help you. I acknowledge your Kabbalistic sources and therefore the Rebbe has every right to say that in the Messianic Era pig meat will be Kosher. Here’s the problem. According to sechel83 and many other Lubavitchers, we are already in the Messianic Era. This said, why hasn’t the Briyah of the Chazir changed? Check, it’s your move. Obviously, I’m being semi-facetious. The Gemara says that Hashem has nothing in this world other than the Four Amos of Halacha. Judaism is a Halacha based religion. By no means am I dismissing or impugning Kabbalah(I descend from great Galicianer Kabbalists in Europe). This said, Hashem clearly tells us in Parshas Nitzavim that the esoteric is His domain while we live in the world of Niglah. This is lost on Chabad, but it looks like you also need to have your head straightened out.
To Menachem Shmei
I’m glad you acknowledge that you’re unable to argue against me because of my superior logic. I’m not impressed with your citations from the Rebbe. He has rejected open Pshat in the Gemara as I clearly explained and so I don’t trust a word that he wrote. Checkmate.August 6, 2023 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #2213818ARSoParticipant
(Sorry, but I can’t resist commenting, even though we’ve been through it all before.)
“the Rebbe doesn’t ch”v make up his own views”
What about the fact that Beis Mashiach is begamatria 770, and saying how there is nevuah in Yisrael because his shver was a navi (implying – according to the chassidim, not me – that he himself is a navi), and that there is a concept of Nasi Hador even nowadays (about which I have written against in earlier threads).
And there are quite a number of other examples of the Lubavicher rebbe making up stuff and then distorting sources to show his point.August 6, 2023 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #2213829
Ysiegel, it is strange. Usually, if there is a disagreement between a Gemora and a Medrash, we follow the Gemora. What is his proof in short?August 6, 2023 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #2213830
Your derech halimmud of taking a list of slogans out of context from a mechaber of 250 seforim can be used the same way against any rishonim and achronim.
Give me any sefer and I can find you a statement from smack in middle of a lengthy pilpul and demand “prove this statement!”
Of course, it will not be easy to answer in an online forum post.
Unfortunately, just as you use this crooked derech halimmud to attack the Lubavitcher Rebbe, there are many who do this ר”ל against any rishonim and achronim who they don’t like, such as the Rambam extremists (אור הרמב”ם) who r”l attack Rashi and Tosfos in the same style that you attack the Rebbe.
I would dare someone to actually sit down and learn through some of the Rebbe’s seforim in their original (not from the על התורה forgery) without coming to a full recognition and appreciation for the Rebbe’s lomdus and dedication to the truth of Torah.August 6, 2023 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2213831sechel83Participant
@mdd thats my point, because we learn chassidus at length and in depth we understand it correctly (look in derech mitzvosecha, shoresh mitzvas hatfilah) the people who dont learn chassidus, see one line out of context and go crazy. and then scream at us for learning kabala cuz they thnk we understand it the same way they do. so whats your pshat?
@arso one of the 13 ikrim is that there is nevuah, the rambam gives simanim on who is a navi which we all saw by the rebbe, signed a psak din that reads as follows
הרינו קובעים בזה פסק הלכה על-פי דין תורתנו הקדושה – מבוסס על ההלכה שברמב”ם פרק ז’ הלכות יסודי התורה הלכה א’, פרק ט’ הלכה ב’ ופרק י’ הלכה א’ – שכבוד קדושת אדמו”ר מלך המשיח יש לו דין נביא ומפורש בשיחותיו הקדושות שמרמז על עצמו שהוא נביא ומובן משיחותיו הקדושות שהוא הוא המלך המשיח, וכן עודד שירת “יחי אדוננו מורנו ורבינו מלך המשיח לעולם ועד”, וכבר אמר לעיני כל ישראל ולעיני כל העולם דברים העתידים להיות ובאו דבריו ונתקיימו במילואם ב’מלחמת ששת הימים’ וב’מלחמת המפרץ’ ועוד ועוד.
ועל כן מחויבים אנו לשמוע לכל אשר יאמר לנו מגדר החיוב לשמוע לדברי הנביא, ובכלל זה – שהוא המלך המשיח ויתגלה אלינו מיד ממש
so if you know any chazal (which from your last attack, it seems not so) you will ask from sotah, well then you will have the same question on anava and yiras chait.
so learn the whole sicha inside, and you wont have questions.August 6, 2023 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #2213858
To ARso and mdd1
Are you really just struggling with the concept of nasty and rude? Or can you just not help yourself?August 6, 2023 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #2213859
Nobody is arguing that Nevuah is a legitimate concept. The problem is that the Gemara explicitly said that Nevuah ended during the 2nd Temple period and will not be restored until Moshiach comes. But we know that the Rebbe has no problem rejecting Gemaras when they don’t suit his agenda. This is another example of the Rebbe putting himself above the Torah. I accept that the Rebbe was a genius. I just don’t believe or trust anything he said.August 6, 2023 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #2213867
I’m not “defending” the Lubavitcher rebbe; I look at every individual issue, and weigh in based on my knowledge and logic. So i firmly disagree with the Lubavitcher rebbes opinions on sukkah, tefilin, and other things that have been discussed here over and over again, as well of course his messianic intimations, but i have no issue with his toras on other matters…i still choose not to learn them regularly because my rebbeim did not hold him to be a gadol byisroel warranting such.August 6, 2023 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #2213866
Qwert, it seems that you are caught in a state where if someone is wrong about some things, they have no valuable things to offer and they can’t be right about certain details or inyonim. The chazir thing has zero to do with chabad, as it’s in chazal; you will get a lot more respect and people will listen to you if you just admit when you’re wrong or misinformed about something – i believe it’s ridiculous to think that the Lubavitcher rebbe, or any other person who is not alive(or alive, since no one has accomplished the criteria yet) to be moshiach, but that doesn’t have anything to do with the chazir being kosher when moshiach in fact comes.
Lubavitchers, to their credit, have not changed halacha to match lost-moshiach times, at least not yet. They don’t bring karbonos, or do anything else that we need to wait for moshiach to allow, and that includes eating chazir – the fact that its siman hasn’t changed is obvious. Now will their movement go full shabsai tzvi and change halacha, like saying shem hameforash? Who knows. I’m just relaying what the facts on the ground are at this time.
It’s my personal opinion that chabad will soon splinter into two groups; those who accept both messianic and elohistic teachings, and those who go back to old school chasidus, brushing off god-in-a-body as just something they don’t understand, and taking the rest of their rebbes teachings, 99% of which are not problematic in yiddishkeit.
But above all, keep it civil; no one’s changing their mind from ranting. The same way Lubavitchers who go on and on about how misguided and inferior they think litvaks are doesn’t change a
– and only strengthens – how we thinkAugust 6, 2023 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #2213865
Sechel83, for real? You expect me to give you on the spot pshatim in deep concepts from the Zohar? Most people should not be even looking at those statements. It can cause michsholim as we have seen.August 6, 2023 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #2213872
The only thing Lubavichers want to do in these threads is to keep us off balance because they can’t deal with the truthful, logical arguments we present. I think you’re doing a great job, so keep it up. The only advice I’d offer is that you ignore everything the Lubavichers say and keep pounding away at them. You can’t change them because the Rebbe is their god, but hopefully, some people who haven’t yet seen the light will change their tune when they see the evidence.
I have no intention of trying to guess what will happen to Chabad but you’re certainly free to speculate. As for the Chair issue, it’s much ado about nothing. I just used it as a red herring to demonstrate the fallacy of Chabad theology. Again, according to Chabad pigs will be kosher when Moshiach comes so how can they say that the Rebbe is Moshiach? It’s simple logic. All I’m doing, along with some terrific posters, is pointing out some of the flaws in Chabad’s belief system as well as issues that must be raised about the Rebbe. Do I agree that the Rebbe was a supergenius? Absolutely. And his worldwide Shluchim movement is tremendous. Moreover, his explanations of Rashi are extraordinary. So I’m not writing him off by any means. But at the same time anyone who rejects any word of the Torah, be it Oral or Written must be taken to task. And I’m not interested in his proofs, just as I wouldn’t be interested if Rabbi Sacks ZL objected to, say slavery, and wrote the most incredible thesis(of course he’d never do such a thing). But the Rebbe did. Avira, we’re not that far apart. Admittedly I turn people off because I sound cocky. It’s the fact that I know I’m telling the truth that emboldens me.August 6, 2023 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #2213885
“The Gemara explicitly said that Nevuah ended during the 2nd Temple period and will not be restored until Moshiach comes.”
There is no such Gemara.
Where does that place you in your own belief system?
Why do you not answer questions directed to you?
Why does Chabad owe you any answers?
You clearly never made a good faith effort to try to understand them.August 6, 2023 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #2213887
“but I have no issue with his toras on other matters…i still choose not to learn them regularly because my rebbeim did not hold him to be a gadol byisroel warranting such.”
Does this mean that you learn everyone that your rebbeim hold of their gadlus? I thought it goes by the capabilities of the student. Not the perspective of the master.August 7, 2023 12:14 am at 12:14 am #2213890
I don’t have the time to learn “every” sefer that my rebbeim hold of, because my priority is to learn shas and poskim; would i pick up a sefer written by a gadol who i know nothing about? Sure! I’ve xone that at shul sometimes… something I’ll look at bein gavra legavra, or stam when I’m in a new beis medrash and curious about what seforim they have.
But i don’t need to read seforim written by people i don’t hold of; not just the Lubavitcher rebbe… There’s a pretty long list of people who write seforim who i have no interest in.August 7, 2023 12:14 am at 12:14 am #2213889
Nevuah stopped with chaggai zecharya and malachi – Sanhedrin 11a. It means it’s gone. It will return when moshiach comes.
There’s a famous Gaon which says that nevuah was taken to even the “zeh leumas zeh” after the YH for avodah zara was nisbatel through the anshei kenesses hagedolah; he writes it on seder olam perek 30, note 12August 7, 2023 1:35 am at 1:35 am #2213897
And on that pretty long list is some of our greatest Torah Geniuses. So, how are you making a point here? You could just admit that you don’t learn any authentic chassidus after Tanya. Nobody will look unkindly at you for it. Many Chassidum don’t learn real chassidus either.
Not what the Gemara says. And anyways the contradiction is in the Gemara itself. So don’t blame it on the Rebbe.
The Goan isn’t a proof to anything. It is more likely he agreed with Sechel83 on this one.August 7, 2023 8:18 am at 8:18 am #2213913☕️coffee addictParticipant
“The Gemara explicitly said that Nevuah ended during the 2nd Temple period and will not be restored until Moshiach comes.”
There is no such Gemara.“
I’m not trying to defend qwerty but there is a Mishnah to that (can’t remember where, something about זהירות, פרישות, רוח הקדש, אליהו הנביא something of that sortAugust 7, 2023 8:23 am at 8:23 am #2213921
>>>Nevuah stopped with chaggai zecharya and malachi – Sanhedrin 11a. It means it’s gone. It will return when moshiach comes.
This is a beautiful example of the ridiculous derech halimmud that people are using to attack the Rebbe.
Do you really think that the Rebbe gave a ten page pilpul on nevuah nowadays without mentioning this Gemara? Of course not! The entire sicha surrounds diyukim on this gemara and the Rambam etc.
You have no time to learn the Torah of those who you “don’t hold of”, but you have plenty of time to bash random lines from their pilpulim without looking into their basis and proofs.
This is even worse than learning lekanter, because then at least you’re learning what he has to say in order to shlog it up. Over here however, you completely ignore his entire shakla v’tarya!
Imagine opening a Reb Chaim, taking out a line from his chiddush, and claiming that it “goes against a b’feirusheh Gemara”, when that very gemara is the subject of his entire pilpul!
As I wrote earlier, there is no point of answering every single “taana” on the Rebbe’s sichos, because that would be like answering every question on Reb Chaim to someone who never opened a Reb Chaim.
Regarding nevua, see what the Rebbe explains AT LENGTH in Likkutei Sichos vol. 14 pg. 72 and on. Sefer Hasichos 5751 vol. 2 pg. 787 and on.
P.S. In addition to misunderstanding the Rebbe, you misquoted the Rambam as well (if that’s who you were quoting when writing “It will return when Moshiach comes.”)
The Rambam writes in Iggeres Teiman: ואין ספק שחזרת הנבואה היא הקדמת משיח – the return of nevuah is a PREPARATION for Moshiach.August 7, 2023 8:26 am at 8:26 am #2213914ARSoParticipant
sechel to me: “one of the 13 ikrim is that there is nevuah, the rambam gives simanim on who is a navi which we all saw by the rebbe, signed a psak din that reads as follows…”
I never suggested that I don’t believe in nevuah c”v. I just don’t believe that the Rayatz was a navi and neither was his son-in-law. The crazy psak that you quote that the Lubavicher rebbe is a navi is just plain worthless and stupid. If fact, it’s disgusting.
To “pasken” that the rebbe was a navi (and Mashiach) from the fact that he alluded to it himself in a sicha makes a joke of all real piskei halocho! MenachemShmei would never have quoted that because he would have realised that we would make a laughing-stock of him if he did. I think you should learn from him not to quote something that is so easily negated and laughable.
You also attacked me ad hominem (I’m fine with that by the way) and, as usual, ignored actual statements that I cited as ridiculous, e.g. the proof of Messianism from the fact that Beis Mashiach has the gematria of 770.
And while we’re at it, let’s drag up some old stuff that has never been answered and always been avoided.
1. The fact that Lubavich holds it’s a “kula al pi chassidus” to eat Seuda Shlishis (that’s an exact quote of what I was told).
2. That according to nigleh one is pattur from sleeping in a sukkah if one is mitzta’er that he is able to fall asleep! (That is most certainly my favorite.)
3. That trees that are so far away that they cannot be seen can interefere with the working of a sundial between the hours of two and five in the afternoon every day of the year. (As quoted by the Rayatz in his stories.)
To paraphrase the Kohein Gaodl on Yom Kippur, there is a lot more in Lubavich than I have quoted here that shows that they are off the beaten track (some of it close to apikorsus, and some over the line). But they will continue to dissemble and avoid at all costs facing up to those criticisms, instead attacking ad hominem or resorting to the hoary old chestnut (I don’t even know what a hoary chestnut is, but I like the expression) of, “You are quoting out of context. If you learnt more chassidus you’d understand.” I may not have learnt as much Chabad chassidus as you have, but I have defnitely learnt more than the average non-Lubavicher, and I definitely DO NOT understand.
I also don’t understand the allowing and even encouraging of drinking alcohol to excess, the levels of mixing of genders which is not found among other chassidim, the low level of tznius (which has been decried by a number of Lubavichers in the coffee room and elsewhere) and the denigrating of all other groups of chareidim that is so prevalent in Lubavich.
I would like to make one thing clear. I am not a believer in the Lubavicher rebbe (as if you didn’t already know) but I believe he had myriad zechuyos that I don’t have. His international Chabad houses are fantastic places of “refuge” for businessman and tourists all over the world. Nonetheless, his hashkafos and views have led to a great decline amongst Lubavicher chassidim and those under their influence in many areas, not limited to those I have mentioned above. And his implicit insistence that nothing other than Lubavich is worthy in the frum world has shown that he cannot be accepted by the vast majority of chareidim as a true gadol beYisrael.August 7, 2023 9:23 am at 9:23 am #2213978
>>>MenachemShmei would never have quoted that because he would have realised that we would make a laughing-stock of him if he did.
It is correct that I wouldn’t bring this psak din. Not necessarily because I think the psak din is wrong, but mainly because I know that I wouldn’t care litvisher rabbanim paskened that the Rebbe isn’t Moshiach, so a psak din from one group of rabbanim isn’t much of a proof.
Regarding the rest of your problems with what the Rebbe said – I stand by what I wrote several times that it is improper to ask from excerpted quotes from long pilpulim. It takes many hours of learning a sefer and understanding the derech halimmud before asking “shturemdike kashyos.”August 7, 2023 9:24 am at 9:24 am #2213976
To Coffee addict
Why don’t you want to defend me? I’m a really nice person and our views are in lockstep. Moreover, I backed you up when you asked if Lubavichers believe that the Rebbe is perfect. They changed the subject and called him a Tzasddik Gomur, but your reference to being perfect was spot on.
Great posting. Not only did the Rebbe say that the Rayyatz was a Novi, but in the Gutnick Chumash he commented that a number of the Baalei Tosafists were Neviim(I don’t recall the ones he enumerated.) The Rebbe felt that he could challenge or reject Gemaras which didn’t suit his own agenda. That doesn’t negate his genius and his remarkable accomplishments it just means that his Torah can not be trusted. All the Rebbe’s sources are meaningless because they “proved” what he wanted to believe. Obviously, his followers blindly accept his every word as Torah Misinai. No human being in our times can argue against the Gemara as that would imply that he believes he can match the logic and foresight of a Tanna or Amora.August 7, 2023 9:48 am at 9:48 am #2213984
Menachem, when someone makes a claim that’s against the mesorah and uses chasidus as a means to do so, I’m sorry but I’m just not interested. You can use kabalah to make claims of all sorts of things, which is why the Lubavitcher rebbe would have benefitted from not studying it until the age of 40 after mastering shas and poskim, as proscribed by the poskim. His errors are largely due to premature exposure to kabalah, and not just tanya etc..
It’s all over rishonim and achronim that we have no nevuah now. If the only way you can prove something is with kabalah, then likely you’re running the risk of, in the words of the tzemach tzedek, burning nigleh with nistar. He said that hisnagdus prevented chasidishe rebbes from veering off the derech due to that chashash, which we see manifested in the Lubavitcher rebbe’s hashkofos, which were unprecedented and novel….to put it nicely.
Quoting a gemara is not lime quoting one line of a sefer out of context; it’s a naamar chazal. Maamarei chazal are independently significant, but here it’s not out of any context, it’s just stama d’shmaatsa. It’s not a chidush to say that there’s no nevuah, since no one has ever claimed to be a navi since chaggai zecharya and malachi – not one tanna, amora, gaon, rishon, or acharon.
Nom – i don’t know what you consider to be a “real” chasidishe sefer. Is meor aynayim less chasidish than the tanya? The only major sefer that i haven’t touched is the toldos, because one of my rebbeim told me not to. He said it can be more confusing than the others. Some seforim i don’t understand very well, including much of likutei moharan and the noam elimelech; some parts i get, others i don’t, and just move on. But it’s been a while since I’ve been into chasidus in any case; this was mainly in my bochurishe days. But i value what chasidus has done for me and for countless yiden throughout history.August 7, 2023 9:49 am at 9:49 am #2213985
Re, Sanhedrin; nomesorah said that there is no such gemara. I said that there is and cited it – why do you take that as “quoting a random line”?
One poster correctly said that chazal say that nevuah ended by the churban, another said that there is no such gemara, and I said that there is. Has the Lubavitcher rebbe’s novel opinions so defined your way of thinking that you can’t distinguish between chidush and pashtus/the way every other section of klal yisroel thinks? There is literally no other group of jews who think nevuah is a thing in our time…. except some people who are into rabbi kook, i think, who called….. meir kahanah(sic!!!) a navi. But I don’t think that rabbi meant it as literally as the Lubavitcher rebbe anyways.August 7, 2023 10:15 am at 10:15 am #2213999
I really don’t want to argue with you because it’s clear that our Hashkahahs are closely aligned. This said you spent the better part of yesterday challenging my statements against the Rebbe. Now you’re basically repeating what I said. Please clarify your position. As I’ve made it clear my issues are with Chabad AND the Rebbe.August 7, 2023 10:55 am at 10:55 am #2214000
Coffee, you’re referring to the braisoh of rebbe pinchas ben yair, which the mesilas yeshorim is based on. It says that תורה מביאה לידי זהירות, זהירות מביאה לידי זריזות, זריזות מביאה לידי נקיות, נקיות מביאה לידי פרישות, פרישות מביאה לידי טהרה, טהרה מביאה לידי חסידות, חסידות מביאה לידי ענוה, ענוה מביאה לידי יראת חטא, יראת חטא מביאה לידי קדושה, קדושה מביאה לידי רוח הקדש, רוח הקדש מביאה לידי תחית המתים”
Torah leads to all of the above, and ruach hakodesh is still something we have – that’s not nevuah. The braisoh does not mention nevuah, and ends with techias hamaysim, which is something any amora was capable of according to the Arizal.August 7, 2023 10:56 am at 10:56 am #2214004
>>>in the words of the tzemach tzedek, burning nigleh with nistar. He said that hisnagdus prevented chasidishe rebbes from veering off the derech due to that chashash
I haven’t seen this before. Where can I find it?August 7, 2023 11:31 am at 11:31 am #2214024
Menachem, i heard it quoted often in yeshiva, notably from a rebbe of mine who was a belzer chossid. I looked around online and found people who have heard it too but similarly can’t find a source for it.August 7, 2023 11:38 am at 11:38 am #2214003
>>>It’s all over rishonim and achronim that we have no nevuah now. If the only way you can prove something is with kabalah
Where does the Rebbe prove this with kabbala? He explains it clearly al pi nigleh! Yet, you are too cowardly to open up the pilpulim where the Rebbe discusses this. Again, we will go in circles all day if we discuss pilpulim which you refuse to learn, but quote anyway.
>>>not studying it until the age of 40 after mastering shas and poskim, as proscribed by the poskim. His errors are largely due to premature exposure to kabalah
Would you say the same of the Vilna Gaon who was a master of kabbala before his bar mitzva?
>>>Quoting a gemara is not lime quoting one line of a sefer out of context; it’s a naamar chazal.
>>>nomesorah said that there is no such gemara. I said that there is and cited it – why do you take that as “quoting a random line”?
You completely misunderstood me. Read what I wrote again. The “random line” wasn’t referring to the Gemara, it was referring to the quote from the Rebbe.
The Rebbe said 2 pilpulim (which I referenced) where he discusses the idea of nevuah in our times, and you have the chutzpa to take one line from those sichos and say “This line goes against a Gemara” when the entire sicha is discussing how to understand that very Gemara according to mefarshim and Rambam!!!
And then, instead of admitting your wrong and opening up the source to see how the Rebbe supports his position, you continue to attack how the Rebbe “uses kabbala” to argue with the Gemara about nevuah, which is completely untrue.
Again, I repeat my taana on you: How dare you attack someone’s pilpul without even thinking of opening it up to see how he explains himself?
You make as if you “found a Gemara” that doesn’t fit with the Rebbe’s statement, when that is actually what his pilpul is about.August 7, 2023 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #2214036
Menachem, the gemara isn’t a kasha on the Lubavitcher rebbe. Anyone who says that there is nevuah – you can say it’s from kabalah, or from 100 kal.vechomers to be metaher a sheretz – the gemara is the gemara. The rishonim don’t take the gemara out of its pashtus. It’s not a “kasha” on the Lubavitcher rebbe; the Lubavitcher rebbe is saying something against not only a gemara, but a clear mesorah from chazal until today.
Again, has any singular individual besides shabsai tzvi and nasan from gaza claimed to be a navi since the churban? At all…anyone?
So the Lubavitcher rebbes claims are against all of that. It’s not cowardice, just lack of interest, and i like to keep my head uncluttered by divergent opinions, this includes neo Lubavitch, religious zionism, ortho-maskilim, modern orthodoxy, fringe breslov, and other divergent groups. My head isn’t a reshus horabim, i value my sechel and my hashkofos.
Qwert – i think you’re misunderstanding me. There’s no contradiction between what i said yesterday and today. When i said that chabad will ultimately embrace the 99% of the Lubavitcher rebbes teachings which are not problematic, i am referring to things which are avodah zara or apikorsus related. Thinfs which can take a person out of klal yisroel. They’ll still have weird stuff like what’s being discussed here, but believing that there can be nevuah nowadays is not, at least i don’t think, apikorsus. It’s just a mistake. Lots kf groups have mistakes; it doesn’t make them invalid and chutz lemachaneh. There are only a couple of things which the Lubavitcher rebbe said/wrote which are assur to repeat, god-in-a-body being the chief example.August 7, 2023 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #2214038
Re, Gaon; yes he did learn nistar young. So did the ramchal; they were the exception, and were able to do so without being damaged by it. Most people who go into kabalah early or before they’re ready have serious problems. This is an example of the exception proving the rule.
Why do you think thus takanah was made? It was because people were going wonky over kabalah that they learned before being ready. This jncluded shabsai tzvi.August 7, 2023 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #2214039
And horaya, the Gaon and ramchal never said things which were against chazal. Others did, including the Lubavitcher rebbe.August 7, 2023 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #2214040
Re, nevuah; let’s also be clear that a nevi sheker, even if he just tells you to keep the Torah, is chayav misah. This is a big deal. It’s not just a hashkofa disagreement. What the Lubavitcher rebbe is saying can land one in an aveirah for which the punishment is death.
I think it’s prudent to abide by the pashtus of chazal and mesorah in such a case..if a yungerman had a chidush about shabbos, if he went and told others to be meikil on a chiyuv misa….i shudder to think of the consequences. These are very serious inyonim.August 7, 2023 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #2214041
Let me elucidate. The quote, as I remember it, (I’m probably off a word or two) , “The Vilna Gaon was the best friend that Chassidus had because without his attacks we would have abandoned Nigleh entirely.” This is in line with what Avira said. Recently I received some background information. The Aruch Hashulchan got his Semicha from the Tzemach Tzedek and he heard this quote. The Aruch Hashulchan’s son the Torah Temimah then publicized it which is why so many know about it. Of course Lubavichers deny that it was ever said.August 7, 2023 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #2214056
To Menachem Shmei
Thanks for your latest submission because now I comprehend your position. For 2,000 years Klal Yisroel believed the simple Pshat that Nevuah ended during Bayis Sheini. No Tanna, Amora, Gaon, Rishon or Acharon challenged this. Then the Rebbe tells the world that no one understood Pshat until he came along because, in fact, Nevuah still exists. For 2,000 years people learned the Gemara which said that just as only 2 of 600,000 Jews left Egypt and came to Israel, so too only 2 out of 600,000 Jews will be redeemed by Moshiach. No one ever questioned this until the Rebbhe decided that he knew the real Pshat and all Jews will be redeemed. Chabad calls the Rebbe the Moshe Rabbeinu Hador. Moshe’s most distinguished trait was humility. What Chutzpah for anyone to suggest that he knows more than all the Tzaddikim who came before him.August 7, 2023 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #2214072
Some questions for those who say that the Gemara must always be taken at face value and if any talmid chacham tries to prove that there is a deeper pshat it is “against chazal” and one must close their ears to any explanations:
Similar to the chazal that you keep quoting that משמתו חגי זכריה מלאכי נסתלקה רוח הקודש מישראל, the Gemara in Sotah says that since the churban בטלה זכוכית לבנה – there is no longer white glass.
What if I were to tell you that it still exists, as it says clearly in other Gemaros. Therefore, the Gemara in Sotah must be understood differently (hint: see Tosfos Shabbos 20b הכוונה שאינה מצויה כל כך).
Will you shut your ears and say that I am going against a clear Gemara!?
Or, if j say that the Baal Hatanya was a great ענו, or that the Vilna Gaon was afraid of sin, will you attack me for going against the Gemara (the same Gemara about nevua in Sotah) that says: משמת רבי בטלה עונה ויראת חטא
And if I told you that the Dubner Maggid told great meshalim, am I an apikores since משמת רבי מאיר בטלו מושלי משלים!?
Should I give you a list of rishonim and achronim (even Gemaros) that name many people after the times of Chagai Zecharia Melachi who they call neviim or say that they had ruach hakodesh, despite the Gemara that ruach hakodesh left Yisroel?
Obviously, the Gemara still has to be explained. I didn’t prove anything, except that it’s okay to delve deeper and see if the Gemara should really be taken at face value. Yet, you refuse to believe that the Rebbe could give any possible explanation. Do you expect me to write a lengthy 10 page well sourced pilpul here on the coffeeroom?August 7, 2023 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #2214065
Every single rishon, acharon, and posek has said many things that don’t seem to fit with various gemaras. This is the bulk of pilpulim from theory down to halacha in Shach and Taz and shu”t.
They discuss certain ideas, ask that seemingly it doesn’t fit with certain pesukim, mishnayos, or Gemaros, and then they explain in a clear fashion how it all fits beautifully.
If you were to only learn the maskanos of every sugya, you will have many questions. “How did he reach this conclusion? There are so many gemaros that argue!” This would be ridiculous. Of course you have know idea how it all fits without reading the actual sugya.
The same is with the Rebbe. His seforim are no different than the rest of Torah shebaal peh.
If you read those sichos, you’ll see how according to the Rambam and others you understood the Gemara wrong, and there is another way to understand it.
Unfortunately, your hate blinds your derech halimud and you would rather assume that it is unfathomable for the Gemara to be explained any other way, and you are so “sure” of this, that you refuse to see his explanation. This is called burying your head in the sand.August 7, 2023 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #2214075
Qwert, i have to take issue with some other things which you’re saying, which i believe to be in error. The “chamushim” which chazal darshen as being 1/5(aside from the pshat of “armed”) is not universally agreed upon. There were different midrashim. How that will work when moshiach comes isn’t simple – we need to go back to that medrash and figure out why in fact so many were not zocheh to be redeemed.. it’s because they didn’t want it; they were comfortable the way they were. So if klal yisroel is the same way, the same thing will happen. if more jews are metzapej l’yeshuah, less will be left behind.
Re, chasidim thinking that their rebbe is “moshe” – this has a source, sort of. The zohar says that every gadol is ispashtusa demoshe in every generation; the continuation, the spiritual powers Moshe had were passed down from generation to generation. Chazal call each other Moshe when they say a sharp thing, etc…so it’s not as if chabad invented the idea. Chabad did, however, invent the idea that only THEIR rebbe is like that and they extended it to silly things like thinking that their rebbe was bigger than the rambam because the latter didn’t have access to chasidus.August 7, 2023 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #2214064
This is getting out of hand.
Nevuah is not a Lubavitch concept. I have no knowledge of what the Rebbe said or wrote on the topic. I do know that the claim that there is absolutely no prophecy in the present day is absurd and is only possible with a very superficial reading of the sources.
I once had the opportunity to learn through the topic with a Talmid Chochom. I’m just going to give the classic sources that have been alluded to here. We are disgracing all ancestors by rabble rousing without learning anything</anything>. If we would go back in time, our hashkafa would be meaningless to them. The fact that we don’t actually learn, will cast us as laughingstock.
The original beraisa about the the End of the Neviim is in Midrash Chazisa. Note, that it talks about Ruach Hakodesh and not Nevuah.
The context is the spiritual lost opportunities of the destruction of the Bais Hamikdash. It is clear in the discourse that these opportunities do not completely disappear.
Based on this, it is included in the Tosefta on Sotah. This is the correct context for where we lost our greatness throughout the generations.
However, the Yerushalmi there brings the story as a saying in the name of Reb Yehoshua be Levi. It does not mention the statement that Ruach Hakodesh stopped.
It is also brought in Y. A”Z (beginning of ch. 3) on how they were great enough to influence their surroundings.
And in Y. Horayos (end of ch. 3) in relation to the greatness of chachomim.
The Bavli in Sanhedrin 11a is in the same vein. (Specifically, to the chachomim that deliberated on the months and years.)
And the Gemara in Yoma 9b is about the opportunities provided by the existence of the Bais Hamikdash and lost in their destruction. This is the closest to the original found in the Midrash.
In all of these sources, it mentions using Ruach Hakodesh on events that were at the end of; or even after the Second Temple. And well after Neviim Acharonim. Nothing about Nevuah and it clearly was still in use. The concept of using the Bas Kol seems like something they did with some regularity.
The Gemara that calls Chaggai, Zechariah, Malachi, the end of Neviim, clearly mens the last written books. See Rashi.
B”B 14a https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=23&daf=14b&format=pdf
Here the Gemara discusses actual prophecy. The point is that it is still in existence if one cares to look for it.
B”B 12 a & b https://hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=23&daf=12&format=pdf
People quote the Rambam that there is no more prophecy. It’s a misquote from Yesodei Hatorah 9:2
כְּמוֹ שֶׁאָמַר הָאַחֲרוֹן שֶׁבָּהֶן followed by a pasuk from Malachi. This is the same as the Rashi above. There is more nuance if one learns the whole perek.
Incidentally, they also use the wrong Rambam as a source that Moshiach will be a Navi.
The Rambam in Teshuva 9:2 is explicit:
מִפְּנֵי שֶׁאוֹתוֹ הַמֶּלֶךְ שֶׁיַּעֲמֹד מִזֶּרַע דָּוִד בַּעַל חָכְמָה יִהְיֶה יֶתֶר מִשְּׁלֹמֹה וְנָבִיא גָּדוֹל הוּא קָרוֹב לְמשֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ.
The idea that we preserved these abilities and can still access them is a mainstream one. Everybody should be all in on it.
Here is a famous Divrei Chaim that accepting the Gedolei Yisroel is to realize that they have Ruach Hakodesh. Yoreh Dayah II 105
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=913&st=&pgnum=381August 7, 2023 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #2214077
Menachem, please provide one person called a navi in a serious context(not the raavads insult of the rambam calling his words divrei nevuah sarcastically) and I’ll take the idea seriously. What we find poskim sometimes doing is euphemisticly calling anotjer gadol’s writings nevuah because they can’t find a source for it in fhazal; the raavad used it sarcastically, they use it respectfully, but it’s clear that that’s their intention.
Find one place where rhe rishonim say “so and so was a navi” or “this person heard the dvar Hashem” or the like – you won’t find it. Anywhere.
As for the mishi….batla….those are discussed. They mean that the highest manifestation of anivus, yirah, etc…are gone. That’s because it’s obvious that one can fear Hashem in any time and place; those gemaras aren’t referring to a specific phenomenon. Nevuah is a phenomenon which chazal are saying no longer happens. The rishonim do not say on that gemara “nevuah isn’t so common now,” it’s been taken as a given by the rishonim and achronim for 2000 years. Universally.August 7, 2023 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #2214078
So unless the Lubavitcher rebbe can summon rishonim or achronim who learn the gemara differently, any other arguments amount to the 100 Kal vechomers to be metaher a sheretz. I simply don’t care. The meforshim on the gemara don’t say anything ambiguous about it.August 7, 2023 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #2214084
Avira, agreed about the nevuah. About who is going to be redeemed — it says it many places in NaCh and the Gemora that it will be a time of jugdement, and one has to be enough of a tzadik to be redeemed. It is just the derech of classical Chassidism (and, by extension, of Chabad) to try to “annul” any judgement over Jews. Hence, “no Jew will be left behind”.
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