January 1, 2012 4:08 am at 4:08 am #601422
Rav Elyashev wrote a letter on Tuesday (posted on INN) stating:
Rabbi Elyashiv wrote:January 1, 2012 5:05 am at 5:05 am #848340
Did R. Eliyahsev really write this or is it some kannoim posing as him? Practically speaking, what’s the alternative — to continue to live off the frei while making a Chilul HaShem? Why in America people could learn a profession, and everything is fine?January 1, 2012 6:35 am at 6:35 am #848341
There’s a very big problem in EY. You have a system that’s pushing 100% of chareidim to become kollel people for life or go into chinuch however there’s only about 20% (if even) of the people who are ACTUALLY cut out for that and who can learn seriously for life. They give them no secular education and no job training. What do they expect, that they should all become shnorrers? That’s what’s happening! I really don’t think Rav Elyashiv is aware of the Yeridas hadoros. A large percentage of people who are officially in learning are wasting their time hanging out on the streets, making ridiculous protests and plotting the next thing to make a big fuss about and what to “assur” out of fake frumkeit.
Its time to cut it out and start doing like they do in America. The only Chassidim who stay in Kollel are generally the top guys who plan on going into chinuch or becoming dayanim…There’s no excuse for what goes on there in EY.January 1, 2012 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #848342
Precisely as WIY says.
This was also one of my primary reasons for leaving EY. I can’t deal with the Israeli chareidi attitude to the outside world any more.
Here in Gateshead, we have plenty of professionals. One respected person is a world-famous professor in mathematics at a university; one of the teachers in the mechina (boys’ high school) is by training a pharmacologist, and the parnes (rosh hakohol) is a realtor.
In EY also, there are certainly circles where working is not regarded as a mortal sin – particularly the chassidishe world. I personally know chassidim who run a makolet or work as plumbers. And I’m not talking ‘weird’ people, but real, serious, Yerushalmi chassidim in Meah Shearim.
Even more – my Rov in E”Y (one of the dayonim of the Badatz of the Edah) and Rebbe both knew I worked in IT, with the internet and with goyim, and NEVER did either of them tell me not to do so.
While having 100% of people in Kollel forever would be amazing, unfortunately people need to earn a living. Or would Rav Eliashiv also be able to provide all chareidi families who consider getting a proper education and job to get out of the poverty with an INCOME to be in kollel?January 1, 2012 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #848343
About Nachal ‘Chareidi’, by the way:
1) It’s not ‘Chareidi’. Maybe in the first one or two years it was, but nowadays it’s 80% knitted kippot – ‘chardalim’.
2) Joining the Army or anything similar is completely out of the question in any case because doing so would be under Yehareg Ve’al Yaavor – this is such a violation of the sholosh shevuos I cannot even begin to describe it…January 1, 2012 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #848344
A violation of the Shalosh Shevuos (assuming that Gemara was even ever meant Halachically) is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor?January 1, 2012 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #848345
Until about a month ago, I could not understand why the chareidi community in Israel did not allow their kids to go to the army, and then be able to get a job, if they didn’t want to learn.
They have always said that the Army is trying to shmad them. But they have their own nachal chareidi- couldn’t they adequately control the environment?
And then we saw. The Army really is trying to shmad them. There was no reason in the world to force frum soldiers to be oiver issurim of listening to kol isha- except out of pure spite and wanting make them be oiver issurim.
I totally understand now. I don’t think I’d want my frum kid in that army.January 1, 2012 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #848346
Ctrl Alt DelParticipant
Why do the Yissachars always disparage the Zevuluns? After a while the Zevuluns are going to get fed up and break out of the deal. An then no one has any benefit. Its so funny though, while in yeshiva guys always were disparaging of the future “zevulun” guys yet later in life those are the same guys are honored at dinners to bring in the cash. Myself included. As soon an my alma-mater found out I had been successful, all those years of browbeating and booshah went out the window and they wanted to “honor” me at some function so I could bring in the dough. I politely declined.
On a related note, I am very curious as to what would happen if Israel would decide to give up the ghost and abolish itself like the NK would like to see happen. POOF!! no more funding for anything. The money would dry up and then where would the learning be? Its so sad that no one sees the necessity of the symbiotic relationship here and acts accordingly.January 2, 2012 2:13 am at 2:13 am #848347
Ctrl Del Alt -Another disparaging comment from the genius him/herself. How in the world do you think of these things? Do you do this with medicine too? Yes, Yeshivos hate anyone & e/o who support them -definitely!
And in EY -when are you people going to wake up? It’s not the NK, Satmar, Brisk taking money from the Tzionim -so they couldn’t wish for better scenario than you said!January 2, 2012 8:20 am at 8:20 am #848350
I do not believe that Rav Eliashiv wrote this. He knows very well that there is a mitzva to defend Jews and Eretz Yisrael and to do hishtadlut for parnassa. He also knows very well what problems there are in Chareidi communities because boys who are not cut out for learning are not given alternatives.January 2, 2012 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #848351
Hey Avi Kukoo – And I don’t believe Moshe Rabbeynu wrote the Torah!
You can just say I don’t care what he says -I’m doing what I want.
You know very well this has nothing to do with going out and getting a Parnossa by either going to school or getting a job. This is doing those things through the Medina. In other words you have to stay far away from the Gov. of the State of Israel!January 2, 2012 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #848352
Health: This is why some people get offended by you. Responding tongue-in-cheek is sometimes fine; sometimes it’s the best way to get your point across. But there’s no reason for name-calling.January 2, 2012 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #848354
Was this statement of the Rav shlita reported by anyone else, or is this an Arutz Sheva exclusive?
Is believing everything reported by Arutz Sheva one of the 13 Ikkarim?January 2, 2012 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #848355
I have the utmost respect for the frum oilam that send their sons to the army! First of all they learn the meaning of time-a soldier is given no breaks-dressed and ready in seconds. They learn to be alert, focused, and to use every sense to survive. They get no time off for minyan, they need to wake up extra early. They experience 48 hour days, hikes so difficult with heavy packs, rescuing a fellow Jew, and mixing among all types of Jews, etc.. Any soldier can apply the skills he learned in the army to his Torah learning and we could produce gedolei Hador like we used to have-those who never wasted a minute, who learned with great hasmoda, who cared about their fellow Jew, etc…Incidentally, high commanders in the army are usually from the top Hesder yeshiva students and are very very frum. And in the army, there is great respect for frum people who follow the Torah honestly.
According to the letter it seems that the intention of keeping Charedi people from the average society is the fear that they will be exposed to things and leave Torah and mitzvos. And so I ask you-if those from the top hesder yeshivas serve in the army and leave shomer Torah and mitzvos, why is the chinuch of the Charedi not providing enough chizuk to their own sons to withstand the tests of being part of the general population without compromising their own mitzva observance? Don’t all of the gedolim regularly meet with all kinds of Jews and are not fazed by their different derachim or no derech?January 2, 2012 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #848356
The real sign that a person truly believes in Hashem and is firm in his beliefs is if he is put into the world and remains a Torah true Jew.
Furthermore, every real soldier knows that the enemies of Jews are the 70 million non Jews who openly proclaim their intention to wipe Israel and Jews off of the globe. Their entire service is dedicated to hatzolas nefoshos-which overides ALL other mitzvos. Does anyone really believe that if Israel had no army doing its job 24/7 that we could rely solely on our zechusim to have Eretz Yisroel? Hashem needs us to have hishtadlus to protect ourselves. The Charedim are benefiting greatly from the service the army provides, and all they do is vilify the army. ( There are a few charedim who go into the army as rabbis, and are mashgichim in kitchens, and provide counseling and lead tefilla.) I think that a great idea would be if a Charedi gadol would openly and publicly write a letter thanking the Israeli government/army for ensuring that the country is safe and for being so gracious as to allow their population to learn Torah. And make hakarot hatov an agenda. It will be mekarev the secular and maybe they will begin to want to learn something about their heritage.January 2, 2012 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #848357
Thank you beautifully said!
I have sons in the army, they face tests which are both spiritual and physical and they have grown immeasurably. My youngest in charedi yeshiva was singled out for having brothers serving in the IDF, he got his brothers and some other frum serving soldiers to come and visit, the boys were given chizuk, not insults, praise not abuse. It is all a question of approach, sadly in public many are too nervous to say thank you, but they surely did to the guy who serves in bomb disposal. Yes they thanked him for helping to protect them.January 2, 2012 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #848358
I don’t feel Rav Elyashiv’s words are being understood correctly.
As such we must protest and warn against all sorts of trends … that seek to harm the pure oil of the hareidi institutions… Such a framework will subject hareidi Jews to the control and culture of secular Jews who have thrown off the yoke of Torah.
He doesn’t anywhere say a frum man who needs to earn a living or doesn’t feel he’s cut out for learning should BE LEARNING. He’s simply talking about Nachal HaChareidi, how it’ll impact on yeshivas – (“hareidi institutions”) and subject hareidi Jews to the secular culture.January 2, 2012 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #848359
emunah613 -“Furthermore, every real soldier knows that the enemies of Jews are the 70 million non Jews who openly proclaim their intention to wipe Israel and Jews off of the globe. Their entire service is dedicated to hatzolas nefoshos-which overides ALL other mitzvos. Does anyone really believe that if Israel had no army doing its job 24/7 that we could rely solely on our zechusim to have Eretz Yisroel? Hashem needs us to have hishtadlus to protect ourselves. The Charedim are benefiting greatly from the service the army provides, and all they do is vilify the army. ( There are a few charedim who go into the army as rabbis, and are mashgichim in kitchens, and provide counseling and lead tefilla.) I think that a great idea would be if a Charedi gadol would openly and publicly write a letter thanking the Israeli government/army for ensuring that the country is safe and for being so gracious as to allow their population to learn Torah. And make hakarot hatov an agenda. It will be mekarev the secular and maybe they will begin to want to learn something about their heritage.”
You sound like a honest person -so I will give you a honest answer. I’m sure these ideas were given to you by Rabbis. But do you understand the difference between a Rabbi and a Godol?
Our Gedolim hold that it’s Ossur to have anything to do with the Medina where they are directly on top of you. Going to the Army or Nachal Charedi is part of this. If you look in the Chumash it says over and over, it’s Hashem who protects us, not an army.
While you are allowed to make Histadlus -the Torah repeatedly says if you think you are winning because of your own army strength, not only is this Not true but it is a big Aveirah to think so! The Freye Tzionim definitely think this way.
Well what about Hakoras Hatov? The Gedolim have said actually it’s not the way you think -that we owe the gov. of Israel Hakoras Hatov for protecting us and supporting learning of the Torah. The people who don’t learn Torah all the time are the ones who owe Hakoras Hatov to the ones that do. The people who are learning the Torah all the time, like in Kollel, are actually the ones who are protecting all of Israel from destruction!
I know this is a hard concept for an individual to comprehend.
But let me give you a real example that you can comprehend:
Almost daily (off & on) there has been rocket attacks on Israel, mainly in the south. I know Terrorists are retarted, but even the most retarted person can hit their targets at least half the time. Why in the world do they almost never hit anything of value, if not that Hashem doesn’t want them to? Maybe Hashem is doing this because the Jews in Israel have lots and lots of Zecusim and a good portion of these Zecusim come from the learners of the Torah all the time!January 2, 2012 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #848360
Health, everybody knows that Rav Eliashiv does not write evrything that goes out in his name and everybody knows that gedolim are often misquoted. In fact, a Chareidi rav told me that once an avereich who was writing a halacha sefer asked Rav Eliashiv a shaila. Rav Eliashiv said “muttar”. The avereich hoched him in chinik until finally he said “fine – if you want it to be assur don’t do it”. The avereich then wrote that Rav Eliashiv said that it is worthy to be machmir.
As for doing things through the Medina, who else runs an army to protect us? Jobs, on the other hand, are mainly in the private sector as are training courses (in fact, the ones that are specifically for Chareidim are given by Chareidi institutions). Apparently someone is afraid that if Chareidim leave the dole (doled out by the Medina)they will be less subject to control by those who supposedly represent their interests (this, in fact, is how socialistic parties stay in power).January 2, 2012 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #848361
Besides INN, have any of the “usual sources” for such bans, announced this? I cant even find this on INN.January 2, 2012 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm #848362
Am I missing something? As far as I know Nachal Charedi was started by HaGaon HaRav Steinman shlitoh and he, who would most certainly not be shy to do so if necessary, has not retracted. If Maran HaRav Elishuv shlitoh indeed wrote that letter, then we have a Machlokes HaGedolim and each one should ask their Rav who they should pasken like. With all due respect to all YWN Coffee Roomers, none of us is capable of paskening that psak. Its time that we learn when to keep quiet! Which is what I will do now.January 3, 2012 1:36 am at 1:36 am #848363
Imanonov: No, he did not start it.January 3, 2012 2:18 am at 2:18 am #848364
THM: But he did endorse it yet and has not yet withdrawn that endorsement, correct?January 3, 2012 2:40 am at 2:40 am #848365
There was an uncorraborated media report that he allegedly told an anonymous unidentified individual that it was okay for him to join. But that person was never identified nor was there anything in writing or signed other than a random claim.January 3, 2012 4:25 am at 4:25 am #848366
Avi K -“As for doing things through the Medina, who else runs an army to protect us? Jobs, on the other hand, are mainly in the private sector as are training courses (in fact, the ones that are specifically for Chareidim are given by Chareidi institutions). Apparently someone is afraid that if Chareidim leave the dole (doled out by the Medina)they will be less subject to control by those who supposedly represent their interests (this, in fact, is how socialistic parties stay in power).”
I don’t know who brainwashed you, but you are a very misguided individual. Read my post to Emunah 613!January 3, 2012 4:49 am at 4:49 am #848367
Right, health. Rav Shach zt’l agreed with you so much about hakoras hatov and the medina that he paskened to fly the Israeli flag atop ponevitch every yom haatzmaut. get over yourself. elu voelu divrei elokim chayim. enough already with bashing everything and everyone who doesnt think like you. It’s getting tiresome.January 3, 2012 5:12 am at 5:12 am #848368
Health, not every Godol holds that it is ossur to have dealings with the Medina. You were overly influenced by the Satmar shittos.
And Moshe Rabbeinu had hakoras hatov to the Nile.January 3, 2012 5:20 am at 5:20 am #848369
I like Israel, and I’m happy we have a state.
But, I’m not about to join an army which is trying to make me do issurim, just for political reasons. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/113594/IDF%3A-Soldiers-Prohibited-From-Leaving-%27Kol-Isha%27-Events.html
I frankly have trouble seeing how a frum person can join an army which plans to force him to be oiver on issurim.January 3, 2012 5:24 am at 5:24 am #848370
Rav Elyashev publicly said at his shiur a few years ago that the Israeli Kenesset is considered a house of apikorsus.January 3, 2012 5:25 am at 5:25 am #848371
yichusdik – Stop living in your little world of Tzioni Lies.
Rav Shach zt’l, never agreed to any flag flying. If you know anything about Ponevez he was just a hired hand. The Kahnemens are the ones in charge. As matter of fact, it was posted here, that s/o asked him why are the Bochurim protesting when they put up the flag? And he answered if They don’t protest -then we will have to hire protesters to come and protest!
I’ll tell you a story I heard about him secondhand. I’m sure you won’t believe it because you are too brainwashed!
Anyway a guy (Frum) was in the Lebanon war and got shot during his duty. After he got out of the hospital he went to Rav Shach zt’l for a Brocha. I think Rav Shach just told him Hatzlocha -I don’t really remember, but this I definitely remember -the army guy told me that Rav Shach told him -“that you think the war is just being fought on the front in Lebanon, but it’s actually being fought on two fronts and the Bais Medrash is one of them!”January 3, 2012 5:30 am at 5:30 am #848372
mdd – Excuse me, name one besides Rav Kook who said that you SHOULD have “dealings” with them L’chatchilla, not just B’dieved?January 3, 2012 5:34 am at 5:34 am #848373
Health: The Ponevezher Rav mandated flying the flag. And Rav Shach used to stand up when his grandson entered the Beis Medrash in his army uniform.January 3, 2012 5:51 am at 5:51 am #848374
Sam2 -“Health: The Ponevezher Rav mandated flying the flag.”
I already said this.
“And Rav Shach used to stand up when his grandson entered the Beis Medrash in his army uniform.”
So what? He liked his Grandkid. He didn’t show any extra anything to the guy I knew.January 3, 2012 6:12 am at 6:12 am #848375
1. Which gedolim? You remind me of the pashkavillim wroiters who sign “harabbanim shelita”. Which rav? The erev rav? Harav im kulam?
2. Learn Tanach – unless your “gedolim” have banned it as Zionistic. David had an army. Learn Gemara. Just as Yoav needed David, David needed Yoav (Sanhedrin 49a)
3. I doubt very much that Rav Shach stood up just because he liked his grandson. He stood up davka when he was in uniform – he stood up for the uniform.
4. Is it also assur to have dealings with the Medina in order to take or just to give?
5. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (I presume thaty ou have heard of him) used to go to Har Herzl to visit kivrei tzaddikim. He was very machmir that one should violate Shabbat to make things easier for combat soldiers in wartime.January 3, 2012 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #848376
Health: the story you said with R’ Shach goes against what you said earlier. You claimed the soldiers do nothing, and it’s only the people learning who protect Israel. R’ Shach said there are two fronts, one on the battlefield, and one in the beis medrash. Yes, both are needed. The soldiers are just as necessary as the guys learning, and we need to appreciate both.January 3, 2012 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #848377
Nachal Charedi has a website. What I know about NC is what they claim about themselves on their site. They claim that they exist to help those found in no mans land. A young man from the charedi/yeshiva world who is out of place in the world he grew up in, with no future prospects. They say it is a religious, social and economic program for these young men who would otherwise flounder in all 3 areas. Does anyone have an alternate program for such young men? The site claims the program is run according to halacha and has the support of “leading gedolim”. Who those gedolim are is not specified, but I suppose is verifiable by asking them. Those who have a problem with this program, did they reach out to its leadership? If yes, what happened that they went to Rav Elyashiv too? Did they tell Rav Elyashiv about any meetings they may have had with them, if not, why not. If they did not address their concerns with those who run the NC program, why not?January 3, 2012 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #848378
Why should I care?
Rav Elyashiv, as Chashuv as he may be, is not my Rov, neither is he my Rov’s Rov, or my Rebbe, or my Rebbe’s Rov or Rebbe.
His statements, even if they are truly said by him (which is highly questionable), do not affect me one iota. There is no reason why I should follow what he says, any more than listening to the Gerrer Rebbe (whom I assume is also a big Tzaddik).
They may make others think I am less frum for not caring, but I don’t really mind what others may think.January 3, 2012 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #848379
R’ Shach also stated that any “yeshiva bocher” who did not learn seriously all day, had no heter not to be in the army.January 3, 2012 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #848380
Rav Shach was against frum people going to the army.January 3, 2012 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #848381
I totally agree with everything Health has said.January 3, 2012 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #848382
Health- After living in E”Y for several years and having a relationship with someone in R’ Elyashiv Shlita’s inner circle, I -as well as Avi K and many others- have learned that you cannot believe with certainty anything that is said in his name. I have heard the same halacha question asked of him and once it was muttar and once assur (no special circumstances to speak of).
The famous joke that is said is someone asked R’ Elyashiv if twist ties can be used on Shabbos, and he said yes.
Someone else went into R’ Elyashiv and asked if twist ties can be used on Shabbos, and he said no.
The answer is that the first guy motioned with his hand a single drey (twist) which is muttar, and the second guy dreyed twice which is assur.
Or for exmaple this story reported on YWN a couple of weeks ago:
R’ Elyashiv said: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=111995
R’ Elyashiv did NOT say that: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=112119January 3, 2012 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #848383
Dr Epharim SHACH had PHD and taught at YUJanuary 3, 2012 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #848384
I will not comment DIRECTLY on Rav Elyashiv’s ALLEGED staement.
I will just say this…
In my humble opinion, if someone is really and truly so anti-Zionist, they should not use anything from the ‘terrible’ Tziyonim”.
When I say ANYTHING, I mean the majority of the country’s infrastructure, i.e. highways, electical system, water system, phone system, etc.
Most certainly they should NOT make use of the I.D.F. which they so malign and detest. What do I mean by “make use of the I.D.F.”? Simply, they should not BE in Eretz Yisrael. Why not? For the simple reason, that since Mashiach has not yet arrived, the fact is that without the I.D.F. EVERY JEW in Eretz Yisrael from the most secular to the most ‘ultra-chareidi’ would be slaughtered by the yishmaelim! Thus, just to be ALIVE one is making use of the Tziyoni I.D.F.
Of course, this is just my personal opinion, – I would not want to get ‘ha’na’ah’ from someone I detest. If one now lives in (PRE-Mashiach)Eretz Yisrael, they ARE, de-facto, getting benefit from the I.D.F.January 3, 2012 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #848385
AOM: Many of the Chareidim who oppose zionism were there before the zionists and before the state. So they never asked for anything. And many (like Brisk and others) do not take financing for their yeshivos and other monies they are legally entitled to.January 3, 2012 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #848386
Popa, there are heterim, for example, if she sings through a micrrophone. Obviously the Army Rabbinate was consulted and it was decided that there is a need which justifies relying on kulot.
What about the fact that you are mevatel an asseh (Rambam Hilchot Melachim 5:1 AND 6:4)? As we all know, an asseh is doche a lo taaseh (if kol isha is d’oraita, which is not clear). Not to mention the fact that the Chofetz Chaim encouraged young Jewish men to join Goyish armies – and asked those who planned to dodge the draft what they would do when we have our owm state and army -even though they would have to do many more issurim.
Cantgetit, Rav Shach gave each person who asked a personal pesak (as with everything else). Once, a very promising bachur felt a strong need to join the IDF (it was during wartime). His rabbanim brought him to Rav Shach and he told them not to “break” the boy. B”H he is still frum. How much more so boys who are not cut out for learning and will at best hang around the coffee machine (in Israeli slang there is even a word for them: parparim – butterflies) or at worst become part of the Shaba Charedi and terrorize their neighbors – as is happening in Mea Shearim.January 3, 2012 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #848387
The problem is loss of control once a bocher enters the army he is no longer under the direct control of his rav/yeshiva but an 19 year old officer, his place of learning looses the income his presence brought
the biggest fear is not those who are not suited for full time study will discover a different world and values. But that the best students will leave the yeshiva and become useful citizens by serving in the army and entering the economic life bringing an end to the cycle of poverty controlled by the yeshiva world.January 3, 2012 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #848388
chavalman – Joseph?January 3, 2012 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #848389
shmoolik – that is what this is about. all of it, from the mehadrin bus lines to nachal chareidi to the internet to lipa shmeltzer to beit shemesh assaults on 8 year olds. it is ALL about control. Control may be a good thing, if you believe that ol malchus shomayim beins being tachas ol avreichei gedolim, or to be dan lcaf zchus tachas ol gedolai Torah themselves. And the reason so little has been said on these issues, especially the most recent terrible images, is that even though their means are violating Torah, the ends that the rioters want are exactly the same as Daas Torah, as it defines itself or is defined by its yoatzos, so how can they appear to be against outcomes they desire – those being control over the hearts and minds of the chareidi velt- even if the means are abhorrent? Truly there is no simple answer for them, as they see actions that are terrible to achieve outcomes they ultimately want.
Control may also be perceived as a bad thing, and those who want no control at all over any yetzer put themselves outside frumkeit.
My preference is l’chatchila SELF Control, as learned in the system of Torah values we cherish; when you need guidance, though, you must seek it, as the mishna says Asey Lecho Rov. The authority doesn’t appear from thin air – you make it. And it must suit YOU. The mishna doesn’t say Asey LOHEM Rov. Don’t tell others what is das vodin, unless they have taken on the same daas torah as you, and given up their choices to a guide who exercises control as you have done.January 3, 2012 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #848390
Regardless of your points, (which ARE true) the fact remains that in todays’s world, (without mashiach being here) without the IDF, every Jew, Chareidi and frei, would be exterminated.
Thus the very lives of the anti-Zionist chareidim are dependent on the existence of a Jewish army. If they don’t want to join the IDF, they have that choice, but a little hakaras hatov for being able to wake up in the morning (to protest the ‘medina’) is still an obligation.January 3, 2012 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #848391
Shmoolik, the best bachurim belong in the yeshivos. Your implication that there they are not useful citizens is 100% apikorsus.
Yuchusdic, your “control” theories is pure slander. I do not agree with everything that is going on by the Israeli Chareidim, but it is meant le’shem Shomaim.
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