Taivah for movies

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  • #1148037

    @Proud Senior.

    I trust one teacher is my school, but she always tells me that since she never taught me, she REALLY doesn’t know me well. That is the problem, we have an adorable librarian. I always thought of talking to her but never did it since I was scared she would tell the school.

    I am also just scared that I will speak to either of these teachers about the real reason I am watching these movies, and they won’t know what I am talking about. Israeli charedi…I am scared that some of the bad things in them that I need to discuss why I have a pull to see them, these teachers may not even KNOW about!! Wouldn’t THAT be akward. Shudder.

    Is there no place for teens to find a mentor besides school? I would speak to my mechaneches but I really don’t get along well with her. Everyone in school tells me I was meant for a different class, I am a different type than my whole class, so my mechaneches is geared to all of them and not me every year and the school won’t let me switch to any of the other 3 classes in my grade. B”H I managed to get along and laugh with my class, but I am still from a different planet and it’s annoying that becuase of that I always get teachers not meant for my type,…

    #1148039
    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Daas Yochid- I don’t think there is any shitta that holds it is j”ehrag al j”aavor to watch movies. Please name me one.

    #1148040

    Well, the gemara (.??????? ?”?) says that ??????? ????? is ???? ??? ????, and ??????? say that a) ?????? are considered ????? b) the issur is to be ???? (in other words, there doesn’t need to be a ??? that the actual ???? will take place).

    So, you would need to distinguish between live and pictures, and I’m not sure I hear a chilluk.

    This is aside from the ??????? of ??? ????? and ??????? ??? ??? ??, for which I indeed don’t have a source that they would be ???? ??? ????.

    #1148041
    Proud senior
    Member

    @shopping613: I have to say one thing-your teachers all know about these things no matter how frum and sheltered you think they are. Obviously they don’t discuss them during class or anything, but I’m sure they can help U. Also u r so normal tht u have these desires. This is how we were created it’s nothing to be ashamed of. U be the brave one and ask for help when u need it.

    If ur teacher claims she doesn’t know you well, why don’t u open up to her more? Tell her what information she is lacking. Usualy a teacher won’t mind if u want to ask her a general question. You can always write them a note and put it in their box in school. I do that all the time bc its easier for me to write than talk sometimes. You can put a note in her box saying you have a close friend with this problem and shes coming to u for advice. That’s the last resort. Of course its better to admit it’s u, but if that’s too hard u can always use this tactic.

    As for being put in the wrong class-everything happens for a reason. Sometimes that reason is hard to understand or we don’t even know the reason but im sure being in thatclass is going to help you and iit’s just for ur benefit. But yes I can imagine how difficult it must be when being in a different class seems so much better. What gr r u in btw?

    #1148042
    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    DY-Igros Moshe (EH 1:56) discusses the gemara in Sanhedrin.

    #1148043

    Nice ?”?. I don’t know how he deals with the ??? ????? and ???”?’s reference to ???? ?????. Not the pashtus.

    See here: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=45428&st=&pgnum=76&hilite=

    #1148044
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: Of course it depends on the movie. I would never under any scenario endorse seeing an inappropriate movie. But your Chiluk doesn’t exist. If it’s YVY, then it’s YVY even B’Ones.

    #1148045
    Joseph
    Participant

    Unless the movie is entirely an animation (and even then it could be assur for other reasons), any movie made in the last at least 35 years would be assur. Unless you want to claim there is a movie either without women or where all the women are dressed according to halacha (long sleeve shirts, long skirts, etc.) and there is no cursing or other inappropriate language or speech (including inappropriate jokes), no wanton violence, etc. Clearly anything rated higher than G is assur.

    #1148046

    @Proud Senior

    Not really so sure about that. They don’t have internet and half are chassidish, I doubt they would know, but I can try.

    I tried to let her get to know me, but it still isn’t the same. Even if they have heard of some stuff, they haven’t seen it and won’t get it.

    I know Hashem put me in the class so I have to work on myself harder, but it’s annoying since I want to find a teacher to look up to, that gets me. It’s really frustrating that all my mechaneches are the strict teachers who have thier opion and that’s that. While the other classes get the soft spoken older women who you see everyone having a DMC with…

    #1148047
    #1148048

    Sam, there’s a difference between ????? and ???????. See ??? ??? ???? ??? ?’ ???? ?.

    #1148049

    See ?????? ???? ?”? ??’ ??”? and further, who argues on that ????? ???.

    #1148050
    Proud senior
    Member

    Hi again! K this sounds perfect! You like the teachers for the other classes and you even see girls talking to them. That means they r here for everyone no matter what. If they try to say Idnt know u well enough, tell them ur dillema how u dnt trust ne other tteacher. Ppllzz try this i want u to have a role model, someone you can look up to and receive guidance from. It is so important for u know and especially when imh you get married. If u don’t know how to develop a relationship now, when will u learn??I needed help with diff things and I turned to a teacher of the younger grades bc she was so cute and I wanted to have a relationship with her. She prob feels.good she Cn help. I wwant you to try it and let me know bc i KNOW it will work!! The teacher will be there for u no matter wwhat. Hang in their. Let me know if you need other assistance and plz tell me what happens with this teacher.

    #1148051
    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Daas Yochid-Thank you for providing so many ?”?.

    Getting off the yeharag al yaavor topic I do think one can make a chiluk between live and picture.

    From an article by Rabbi Yair Hoffman on Shidduch Pictures (where he discusses ???????):

    “One may also ask if the same prohibition would apply in a photograph as in live. The Poskim do deal with viewing it through a mirror or other medium. Rav Palaji (in Responsa Shma Avrohom #46 cited by Rav Ovadiah Yoseph in Yechave Daas 4:7) rules that it does. Rav Yoseph Chaim Zonnenfeld is cited as someone who is more lenient and differentiates between a picture and a live person if there is no chance that it could bring one to improper thoughts.”

    So there is possibly more room to be lenient for movies.

    #1148052

    if there is no chance that it could bring one to improper thoughts

    Obviously, that is not what we’re talking about (in any case, even live wouldn’t be a problem then).

    #1148053
    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Obviously, that is not what we’re talking about (in any case, even live wouldn’t be a problem then).

    That would depend if you hold ??????? is just an issur ????? or also an issur of ?? ?????.

    But even if it is only ?????, I’m still not sure you can disregard the whole thing if it doesn’t personally lead you to hirhur. Maybe with erva (parts of body normally covered uncovered) you can do that but I don’t know about ??????? ??? ????.

    #1148054

    ??????? ??? ???? would obviously lead to ?????.

    #1148055
    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    ??????? ??? ???? would obviously lead to ?????.

    I’m saying in the theoretical case where it doesn’t it might still be assur

    in live. On a picture there would be more to rely on.

    #1148056

    Why?

    I would need to see what R’ Y.C. Zonnenfeld said, but to me, other than the inaccessibility of the direct aveirah (which shouldn’t matter according to the way I understand the Baal Hamaor/Ramban), the difference would be the likelihood of it causing hana’ah/hirhur.

    People are watching movies for hana’ah, so it’s not relevant to our discussion.

    (Now watch someone pretend they don’t get hana’ah from the images that are expressly there for that purpose.)

    #1148057
    Joseph
    Participant

    The women in the movies are specifically dressed for the viewers hana’ah.

    #1148058
    perspectives
    Member

    DY I fully agree with you. However, this is an interesting M.M. perhaps R’Y.C.Z is coming from. MOSHAV ZEKAINIM OF THE BALEI TOSAFOS PARSHAS VAYAKHEIL 38:8. Certainly not to pasken from but interesting non the less.

    #1148059
    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    DaasYochid- This is why I see a distinction.

    1) According to the poskim that hold it is a drabbanon to be ??????? ??? ???? and it is part of the issur of ?? ????? might hold that in the case of movies/picture where it is not an actual woman the drabbanon doesn’t apply.

    2) Even according to the poskim that hold ??????? ??? ???? is an issur derabanon because of the possibility of hirhur would hold that live it is still prohibited because he is being ???? even without hirhur. But maybe by a movie/picture it is different because it is not an actual woman. (Assuming he won’t have hirhur.)

    #1148060
    Joseph
    Participant

    (Assuming he won’t have hirhur.)

    Too many convenient, but obviously wrong, assumptions.

    #1148061

    I don’t know what you mean.

    #1148062
    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    DaasYochid-What don’t you understand?

    #1148063

    Your last post. How are you being mechalek between movies and live?

    #1148064
    time4change
    Participant

    Hi. Amazing that you are recognizing something you’d like to work on and that it is a taivah for you. I’m astounded by most of the comments, which are not focusing on what your question really is, but rather what they’d like to be lax on their own lives.

    So first to address your question “how to get over this taivah…” – there is a website that offers help with this department. It’s called “guardyoureyes” google it. If you have the strength to connect yourself to that then you are on the right path to working with your taivah.

    I didn’t read all the threads here. But I’m commenting on one of the comments made about at BT girl who became yeshivish and gave everything up. Nebuch, but that happens. I work in kiruv, I see everything!!! That happened because she didn’t have direction, no rabbaim to advise and she took on too much at once. I do also think that she didn’t have a solid education to fall back on, which is what a bt really needs to hold their own…

    Anyhow I wish you much success on your journey to help yourself. I feel sorry for a lot of the yiddin on here who are making exceptions for innapropriate behaviors. We are Jews, we are not goyim and our goal is to behave as Jews. I pray for all the fellow yiddin to connect to Hashem in the most proper and appropriate way!

    Hatzlacha to you and your journey with this taivah.

    #1148065

    Thank you all everyone.

    I have heard a lot during the past few weeks how gashmiyus is choking our neshoma…and how we can’t get higher with it. The second we free ourselves we can.

    So, today, at the kosel I made a deal with Hashem.

    I give him my movies, and he gives me life, spirituality, and things to get better.

    Is this halachicly okay? To litterally sit and make a “deal” with G-d?

    #1148066
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its never a good idea to make such a deal, What if you get sick or break a limb or other things what will happen then?

    #1148067
    Sam2
    Participant

    Maybe. Sort of. As long as you don’t expect specific results or to understand *how* they’re good it might be okay.

    #1148068
    Mammele
    Participant

    I’m not going to “pasken” this one, just a few points…

    Great tzaddikim did make deals with Hashem, the famous one about the Bardichever comes to mind.

    Since I personally am very far (major understatement) from his Madreiga, personally I would not go so far.

    What I would do in your place is simply add “Please Hashem I will (bl”n) do such and such for You, in return can You please grant me this and this.”

    Less explicit than an outright deal like you implied, yet every time a Nisoyan comes up, say to yourself I promised Hashem to no longer watch ________ in exchange for _______, so I will be strong and not falter.

    And every time it seems that Hashem isn’t living up to his side of the bargain, you say to Hashem, look, I am working so hard to abstain from watching ______ so please bless me with a life full of _______ so that I can continue to do Your Will.

    I hope you get the idea and wishing you much Hatzlacha!

    #1148069
    oomis
    Participant

    The trouble with making deals is that if you don’t get your desired result, you may feel Hashem isn’t listening and has let you down. So many people make bargains with Hashem and then go OTD because they did not get what they want. It happened before, during the Holocaust.

    Better to subjugate your will to Hashem’s, and daven that Hashem finds zechus in you that makes you worthy. That still will not guarantee the result you want, because Hashem only does eshast isd good for us, something which we do not necessarily know ourselves.

    #1148070
    Proud senior
    Member

    Hi! Wowowowowowow!!!!!! How amazing it is that you were able to do that. I hope you realize how great this is!!!

    How is this making a deal with Hashem? You gave him movies. Period. Ur not saying ur gona take themback if…

    U did something and u r simply asking for schar. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with this. I still can’t beleive u made the step and stopped cold turkey!! I rly hope u have people in ur life who know you did this and who are “cheering” u on. It’d not easy. When it gets tough, don’t give up!! It’s just the Satan.if he wwouldn’t bother you it would be a shock! keep us posted!! Yasher koach πŸ™‚ ur amazing

    #1148072

    I was reading up on GaurdYourEyes about this stuff, it’s a very good website.

    B”H I will keep you posted on any news, but I think I will be able to keep my commitment!

    Thx every1 for their help!

    #1148073
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its seems Joseph is Lior

    And vashtischwartz is Daas Yochid

    #1148074
    oomis
    Participant

    This is from oomis :I just logged in, but it said welcome “akuperman” and I am not akuperman. Something is messed up.

    #1148075
    oomis
    Participant

    Mods, it is still happening. What is going on?

    #1148076
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its a Purim prank and I think its actually quite funny

    #1148078

    i thought all videos had a taivah

    its called a TV (hey, maybe thats where they got it from TaiVah)

    not to be confused with tayvah

    #1148079
    oomis
    Participant

    It’s the folks who didn’t act on their taivahs, who ended up in the tayvah.

    #1148080
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Rambam Shemoneh Perakim Perek 5:

    ??? ?? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????????? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????

    Rambam Hilchos Teshuva 8:6:

    ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ????, ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???

    #1148081
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Avodah Zarah 17a-b:

    ??? ?’ ????? ??’ ????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ?”? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?????? [??????] ??????? ??????? ?”? ??? ?? ?? ?”? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?”? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?”? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??????

    #1148082
    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    Mammele-Oyoy: on what evidence scientific or otherwise do you base your assumption that by stopping cold turkey there is a greater chance of relapsing?

    Experience. Mine, my friends’, and a therapist’s held in high esteem. But you are correct, this doesnt apply in every case of stopping cold turkey. It depends on the size of the turkey and how cold youre stopping.

    #1148083
    Wisey
    Participant

    But if the person is intending to get hanaah from the video itself(plot,action,comedy)and not the women, then would the untzniyusdik dress be considered an unintended ri’iyah which R Moshe allowed for a businessman required to go to work as long as he can trust himself to guard from improper thoughts?

    #1148084

    Taivah for movies

    Would you like me to link the teshuvah in which R’ Moshe says movies are assur, and doesn’t say this “cheshbon”?

    #1148085
    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    Wisey-

    You brought up an excellent point The famous Gemara in Bava Basra

    57b says that one can take a path with immodestly dressed woman if he has no other way to get to where he needs to get to. The question is, how far does this apply? Does it mean only Parnassah or Medical issues, real legitimate purposes, or even tiyulim (pleasure trips)?

    DaasYochid- I think you are referring to IM YD (4:11:1) where Rav Moshe tz”l prohibits going to movie theaters because of Moshav Leitzim.

    That is different then watching a movie at home. Rav Moshe does add:

    ?? ??? ????? ????”

    “? ????’ ‘??”? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ???’ ????? ?? ????? ??????’

    That would apply even to movies at home.

    It is best to read the whole teshuva:

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=922&st=&pgnum=212&hilite=

    #1148086

    I was actually referring to this:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=918&st=&pgnum=288

    But, either way, it shows that wisey’s point is wrong.

    #1148087

    JT: Going somewhere for pleasure is not a necessity. And certainly not going to that particular pleasure venue when you can choose other pleasure venues that don’t involve crossing a path with images of immodestly clad women.

    #1148088
    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    nolongersingle-But you can say that with anything. Parnassah, you could say get another job, a stay at home job, or with medicals issues, get a new doctor. If one wants to watch a certain movie and that is what he wants to watch, then there is no other movie like that, then he has no other path.The only question is does the Gemara apply to any purpose whatsoever or only real legitimate purposes. See Tosafas Avodah Zarah 48b (disscusing idolatrous trees) where he says even if the path is longer you don’t have to take it

    #1148089

    (Now watch someone pretend they don’t get hana’ah from the images that are expressly there for that purpose.)

    I don’t mean you specifically, but come on, don’t be naive. Nobody watching movies is being maisiach daas from the pritzus.

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