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Nom, have you ever been to meron? Nobody’s worshipping rebbe shimon. Praising tzadikim and wanting to connect ones self with them through their torah is in chazal…sefaav dovevos bekever, etc..
Hiskashrus with tzadikim isn’t a novel concept. What chabad does is link their rebbe with Hashem, and do things to please him together with Hashem r”l.
Aaq….why do we care about what some Christian wrote centuries after yushkes death? There are a million versions of Christian history from different churches and sects….
Nevermind…i looked it up, and it was written by a Jewish person who said he was a mamzer, and explaining how he did supernatural things by abusing sheimos, etc..
Not clear if the author meant it seriously…the book isn’t some sort of authentic historical text, and im reasonably sure rav rottenberg had a lot more to go on than just this anonymous book.
I think it is unwise and improper to debate the minim and give them a platform by which they can spew their emunos tfeilos. Don’t debate them, ignore them. They are not within machane yisroel and do not deserve the platform or attention.
Yserbius
Yes
So when you ask the tooth fairy to give you extra cash for your tooth, you are an apikores?
Dear Avira,
Nothing in Chabad is worse than what goes on in Meron. This is obvious to anybody who does their research.
Dear Avira,
When was there a huge machlokes about machnesei rachamim? It has been debated in seforim. A big difference.
n0mesrah, and what goe on in Meiron?
And I don’t need “research” into meron; i ask again, have you ever been there? Have you ever seen for yourself a contingent of jews who pray or offer supplications to Rashbi? I haven’t. Singing the praises of a tzadik is not worship.
Nom, asking people for help is hishtadlus. Asking malaachim, the aun and moon, or other such things, is avodah zara – it’s clear halacha. There’s a simple difference between tefilah and requesting help from other people.
And yes, asking a tooth fairy, which is, in the person’s mind, a spiritual entity, would also be avodah zara.
The only machlokes i care about is a machlokes in seforim; everything else is inconsequential to understanding hashkofa. Why should we care what individual simple jews thought?
Ask the Meron fanatics what it means to them. It’s shocking. The same is true for Umman and other kevarim.
Dear Avira,
So why aren’t there dozens of posts from you about the kefira of the tooth fairy?
PS Since these are all specific thought processes, how could we ascertain them from seforim? Whatever we think when we opened the sefer, we will assume the author is ‘proving’ our belief. You know this is true, because this whole thread is one example after another of one poster doing just that.
And there is the mispronunciation of התנא האלוהי. Go ask around what it means.
I mentioned in a different thread that it irks me when people mispronounce the song lekovod hatana… It’s supposed to be eloki, but it’s an innocent mistake. Same way people mispronounce “baruch hu elokeinu sheBARanu likvodo, which means “we created”
You’re mistaking praises of tzadikim for avodah zara; this stuff only happens in lubavitch.
Dear Avira,
Your the judge here on which group is A”Z and which is not. To me, an innocent pronunciation mistake doesn’t redeem what they say their intention is. What is said about Reb Shimon, Meron, and The Zohar, is much more explicit (Seeing and intervening on the molecular level against the decrees of Hashem) than anything about the Heinteger. You could include Uman with Na Nach. Really any group could be included. [Just it’s weird to openly start saying how my rosh yeshiva (who has passed on or still walks among us), knows everything that is decreed on heaven and how it plays out on earth. But in certain hot headed times, we all get close to that trap.]
If you run to kabbalistic intentions, the kabbala is much more accessible (…and possibly better understood.) in Chabad then among the Meron revelers. (I don’t know much about Uman.) If you have a problem with this itself that Chabad made the kabbala hefker, I could agree with you on that. There isn’t anything to do about it. And mixing it up with A”Z just makes the problem more confusing.
@n0mesorah Nobody pretends that the meshugoyim around the Golan have any sort of relevance. Na Nachs and the people who unfortunately attribute strange things to the RASHBI don’t have any sort of Torah backing. They are just unfortunate misguided people who got caught up in what is otherwise a legitimate minhag of visiting kivrei tzaddikim at certain times. There’s a reason many Roshei Yeshivos banned attending the Meron or Uman ceremonies, and those who allow it require everyone to stick with a particular group. There’s no Torah, no leadership. And no one of any relevance or respect is saying that it’s OK.
Dear Yserbius,
I was never anointed with the right to say who is relevant or not. But either way, it sheds light on Chabad. And it continues to every single group. It’s an instinct to ascribe divinity to anything we can’t fully ascertain. Without controlling it, it leads to strange mental dogmas.
Chabad, Meron, and Umann, are not controlled much. But the same thinking goes on in Bnei Brak, Lakewood, and Yerushalayim. It stays beneath the surface, because these are more restrained places. People are more hesitant to be seen as not normal, than to assume that the abnormal is natural. But in agitated moments it becomes recognizable, that large parts of every group struggles with the separation between sainted humans and the divine.
Who is to say that they are heretics?
n0m, that is what gedolim are for. Are gedolim tell us what is kefirah. And the litvish gedolim have spoken here.
Hashem said lo Bashamayim hee, follow your chachomim. Hashem won’t have a moshiach candidate that goes against the chachomim.
n0m, they are actually very much, as you put it, “controlled” in that regard.
Kolaiv davened by Kivrai haAvos “Avosai bikshu alai rachamim”
When visiting the Kever of their Rebbe Lubavitchers follow a specific proscribed customs (that they have for generations).
Among them, as relates to your comment, they include:Beforehand they all {give extra Tzedaka for, and} write a “Pidyon Nefesh”, which follows the Nusach of “ana leorer rachamim rabim baavur so&so ben/bas so&so” followed by their Bakashos..
(The huge lobby on the way into the bh”k has seating, pens & paper to use for this..)At the Kever, they all Daven from the ‘Sefer Maaneh Lashon’, during which there is a specific place/context:
יהי רצון מלפניך .. בזכות הצדיקים .. הנקברים פה .. יהיו עלי מיליצי יושר .. אמן סלה
where they read their P”N, before continuing to Daven in the Seder haTefilos.
See here: https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15693&pgnum=14
(At the Ohel/Kever there are shelves full of the M”L in Hebrew/Aramaic & English, and on top of the Kever there are the many P”N’s which were torn up and left once read).For those who have limited time (or who are not particular with every one of the additional customs involved) at a minimum they have a P”N in the Nusach etc, and they daven from the M”L as much as possible (certainly at least to where the P”N is read), often continuing the M”L, after having left, until they’ve finished.
So far them, the Nusach of the M”L in conjunction with that of the P”N ensconce the context of their Tefilos very clearly.
Dear Lerntmin,
All the gedolim that I know personally, spend their days in one of three fields. 1. Learning or teaching Torah. 2. Communal issues. 3. Helping and being available for people. None of them spend anytime on what is appropriate belief or heretical thought. And none of them care for the nuance of these issues, so your point is totally moot.
Ben, so can you say clearly, without any other words besides “yes” and “no”, that you and people you know have never and will never ask the lubavitcher rebbe for direct assistance?
No “you have to know” or anything; simple – do you pray TO your rebbe that HE should help you, or not?
Nom, why don’t you ask the gedolim that you say you know if one’s beliefs are important, and if it matters to them what klal yisroel is drawn after, or if the status of a belief being kefirah or not matters.
You’re drawing inferences to support your personal orthopraxy opinion, which no gedolim endorse and which was a staple of the haskalah that they all fought against.
Also, check out the hakdama of the chovos halevavos.
And check out the pasuk “mikol, netzur libcha, ki memenu totzos fhain” – of all things, guard your mind, for from it comes life”
Dear Ben,
That’s not what I was talking about. In Lubavitch one can be any kind of person the are comfortable. They dress, eat, and entertain themselves how they want. Same with Breslov. There is almost no cultural prishus. They don’t do what they don’t do because they are more authentic about it. Therefore, if they want to say that Moshiach is coming because I saw the footprints of the Baal Shem Tov in the mud behind my house, they will say it. As opposed to more culturally regulated communities, where they would keep their mouths shut.
Dear Avira,
No thanks. I have had more theological conversations with more gedolim than probably any kid ever. It’s for the lazy or the simple minded. It’s not something great people enjoy. Whenever my conversations got sticky, I just leaned on Aryeh Kaplan. I have yet to meet a great person who is willing to dispute Kaplan. (Though I know of two great people who openly disagree Kaplan’s opinion. One I will probably never meet. And the other we couldn’t get a discussion going. It was just yes. Why? Because. And if it’s no, than it’s just no.)
Now you seem to have no depth on this issue. The Chovos Halevovos requires serious philosophical study. It means something completely different when it’s superficially referenced. And only the well rounded, super geniuses among the gedolim had any interaction with the haskalah in the last fifty years. Already a hundred years ago, haskalah was barely a factor. You have everything all confused into a big mush. Because you have never seen the weaker elements of the Yeshiva Community. You just write them off as not yeshivsh anymore.
The main point which I think you should agree to, is that a lot of the meshachist stuff is silly. If someone believes that, why bother with them? Let them feel safe in their beliefs so that they would be comfortable to get involved in other topics. Eventually they would wizen up. And if they don’t, then it’s not much of a loss to begin with. But doubling down like you do, just makes them be more defensive. Then they hesitate before learning anything new because maybe it will ruin their belief in the Rebbe. And all their creative intelligence gets wasted in more elaborate defenses.
n0m, cultural prishus?
I’m not sure I follow.
But I gather from what you’re referring to in general is simply chevra used to bountiful Ahavas Yisrael bileaiv vanefesh lfnim mishuras hadin, in contrast to bountiful conservative Ahavas Yisrael bilaiv venefesh, if I can put them like that.
Certainly these nuances have a profound effect.
Note: it’s important not to over broaden Chabad, since the overwhelming majority are firmly rooted in Torah, Toras Chayim and hanhagas haYahadus kipshuto, no compromises.And to differentiate between Breslov and Chabad, one is among a chevra, and the latter flows from the Manhigus of the/a Gadol baTorah (who was ibergegeben bifrat panim bifanim yad leyad to any and every “common Yid” who presented, and sent an army of kind gentle souls for those who would’ve but didnt know of the opportunity).
ADA, by pray, do you mean what B”Y were doing to MRA”H the whole time in the midbar without once specifying “that you convene with Hashem for us”? Or because it was with chutzpa it doesn’t count but if someone did the same thing like a mentch it would become kefira?
And since when is it ok to beseech a Tzaddik to appeal to Hashem on one’s behalf after he passed, as is clear, but while he’s alive it’s a problem?
And based on what Torah do you or purported so-called Chachamim decide that if the person does the same thing, but in a concise manner ” Tzaddik I need…” and isn’t fully mefaresh up to and including “can you appeal to Hashem for me” that they suddenly become a kofer???
And at what turn of phrase do you find the nerve to imply that someone with little Emunah sichlis and overwhelming Emunah peshuta goes up to a Tzaddik and says “Rebbi I need… please help me” that suddenly you Dun them as a kofer because by this Maamin no cheshbon was made one way or another, and is essentially doing the same as the previous?
And to add further mr/mrs Emunah peshuta when asked by you if he/she was davening to the Tzaddik or asking him to petition for them, looks at you dumbfounded without a clue as to what in the over gargantuated cynicistic sichlis you are talking about, given your multiple choice self-defeating cheshbonos there were beyond the pshitus of such a Yid, as evidenced in the stupifying tone when responding with more sichlis than ever before mustered: “I davened to him to Daven to Hashem for me”, without even being sure of what they said themselves, but rather patching together a response somewhere between their initial hargasha and some disenfranchised sichlisictic brain teaser you wove!
Do we now relegate them to kofer based on the words of their lips, regardless? And how about when we check after being poisoned by your runaway sichlicism for a month, and they finally get the self-defeating question as evidenced by their reintegrating that after careful thought, yes they davened to him to Daven to Hashem for them, what have you settled there?
And was this individual tahor in the first place by your standards, but now a kofer by the same?Or now do you want to try to pseudo-intellectually finely define what daven means without someone trying to corner you with yes or no answers?
And how on earth when you find out that Lubavitchers explicitly daven at the Kever to Hashem specifically (did you even study the Sefer in the link?) even when being mevakesh from a Tzaddik is firmly permissible, do you get so disturbed by the notion that you immediately try cornering validation of some possible concise communicator or Emunah pshuta emanator to use to validate your supposed Chachamim and write off all Chabad who by firm custom even at the Kever of their Rebbe daven only to Hashem?
And have you already forgotten what I had previously quoted:
Rabbe Yehuda haChassid c. 1200 in Sefer Chasidim #450 says:
“Uchishemivakshim meihem heim Mispalelim al hachayim”.And again, just so it’s clear, did B”Y in the midbar say “please we any more than just mon” or did they say “sir M”R it has to come to us a need for mon regarding which we beckon your corporeal unreliable lowly humanness to consult with G-d the maker of both you and us to provide this for us, while notating to Him that he should fulfil our request and have us also not have us cast away as a heretic by our fellow lowly human think they know it all brothers and their lowly human babysitters who grossly mislead them, since in this message of His lowly human servant I have employed all the necessary verbiage to establish that ce again today also I am no heretic, that it should be known to the lowly ears of all who hear me that I not be left without a His wonderful lowly corporeal human nation, how cherished they lowly human and corporeal are, as they are to Him, to me too, his also lowly human and corporeal, and to finish most importantly with, that you who carry this prayer for me are lowly human and corporeal too!!!
There, saved from ADA and his runaway ignorant kanaus, apparenttaught to him by someone in his world heralded as a Chacham.
Hashem Yishmor!
“Let them feel safe in their beliefs so that they would be comfortable to get involved in other topics. Eventually they would wizen up. And if they don’t, then it’s not much of a loss to begin with. But doubling down like you do, just makes them be more defensive. Then they hesitate before learning anything new because maybe it will ruin their belief in the Rebbe. And all their creative intelligence gets wasted in more elaborate defenses.“
N0mesorah,
And what if now that their belief in the rebbe makes their involvement in other topics only through the prism that “the rebbe is moshiach” and whatever svarah they come up with is krum to begin with
If you want to know about how klal yisroel was supposed to see moshe rabbeinu, and how cheit heagel happened because they believed in moshe as having independent kedushah/being a go between to Hashem, and used the egel as a substitute, see the meshech chochma.
Ben – and there we have it. Thank you for being candid and saying that you pray to your rebbe.
As for your question about what the difference is between asking a live person for help, and a deceased – we have a pasuk that says that such things are assur. It says you cannot be “doresh el hameisim.” You are not allowed to seek out the help of dead people. You are not allowed to pray to them, because having a conversation with something or someone who you are not seeing ib front of you is a religious activity, a prayer.
And the 4th ani maamin says that only to Hashem is it fitting to oray.
But…the rebbe is….god, right? So it’s ok!
So any “svaros” which seek to undermine halacha, are megaleh panim. Which halacha is it against?
See mishnah berurah end of 581, quoting the maharil, which says clearly – that one should, when davening at kvarim, not think of the meisim:
ואמר דנראה לו טעם אחר משום דבבית הקברות מקום מנוחת הצדיקים, ומתוך כך הוא מקום קדוש וטהור והתפלה נתקבלה ביותר על אדמת קדש. והמשתטח על קברי הצדיקים ומתפלל אל ישים מגמתו נגד המתים השוכבים שם, אך יבקש מאת השם יתברך שיתן אליו רחמים בזכות הצדיקים שוכני עפר תנצב”ה.See kaf hachaim תקפא ס”ק צה , who warns of an issur.
There’s a lot more discussion in the poskim about this. The minhag of davening by kvarim is defended by the maharil who says that you’re davening bzchus the tzadik, and othet poskim who say that the tzadik is being asked to daven for you, which is based on the gemaras that you yourself quoted above
Ever wonder why in all the chazals you accurately quote, about davening by kvarim, that never once – not by kalev, not by anyone – was a request made of the tzadik himself? It was always to daven to Hashem on their behalf.
Maybe the “what’s the difference if they’re alive or dead” idea is.
..wrong? Baseless? Avodah zara?Dear Coffee,
If their interested in the Torah, it will shift their priorities accordingly. Even as you assume, there is still no clear benefit of attacking Chabad. I have no rational for it other than our own insecurities.
A request made to the tzaddik in the kever himself: Bava Metzia 85b
And much worse goes on Meron, and nobody says boo.
Why is this an endless, big deal to anyone?
Asking the deceased for forgiveness is done all the time, by relatives of the person, etc… It’s not davening.
Nom, sheker gamur; that talmid chochom was trying to get rebe chiyah to forgive him for his act of looking at his seat in the Yeshiva shel maalah. He didn’t say “please heal me” – look at the maharsha there; he was davening to Hashem that he should be healed through asking for forgiveness and by learning.
He, and no one else, has ever, and will never ask a dead person to help them in any way, shape or form.
And constantly repeating why this makes no difference to you makes me think it actually is a big deal to you.
ADA,
1. The M”B doesn’t say it’s ossur, it says “al yosim”. That is not informing you that it’s ossur; it is an instruction.
See Sotah 34b where Kalaiv says, and I quote: “Avosai, bikshu alai rachamim” at Kivrai haAvos.
2. See comment above where I linked to the Sefer Hishtatchus of Lubavitchers which clearly shows that they direct everything to Hashem. So you’re not talking about Lubavitchers. Nice try.
Most importantly, please stop being Motzei laaz on Yidden, whether it’s barren women pleading to Rachel to help them have a child, or Breslov’s sharing their latest idea with Reb Nachman.
Go read Rambam’s Ikkar Six. You are misrepresenting it.
Also, with your conjuring of new Halachos, how do you reconcile MRA”H bowing to Yisro (See Rashi there, beginning of Parshas Yisro).
Ben, bikshu alai rachamim means to daven for me – literally every case in the gemara involving tefilah and kvarim say that they’re asking the tzadik to daven on their behalf. “Bikshu” = ask “alai” on my behalf” rachamim “tefilah, mercy” – ask for mercy for me. Daven for me.
Repeat, daven. For. Me.
Not “save me rebbe”
And i have no issue with what you quoted from the lubavitch text. My issue is with what i asked you and how you answered. I asked you if you pray TO your rebbe, and you said you do, and asked what the difference is between that and asking a live person for help.
Then you went back and quoted another chazal about asking tzadikim to daven for you. And then said that you only say what’s in the lubavitch text you quoted.
The text is from a time when chabad were normal Jews who davened only to Hashem.
Dear Avira,
I don’t care for this argument. Ben’s posts are too tedious for my time. It caught my eye that there is no mention of asking from the deceased so I posted a source. I’m not aware of the implications.
There’s a simple solution to this argument. @AviraDeArah should find three examples of Chabad Rabbonim that you do not consider messianic instructing people to ask bakoshois of the late Lubavitch Rebbe ZT”L. I’ll give you one for free, the language used on the website of the Lubavitch Ohel HaMeis. There’s plenty more on various Chabad YouTube channels.
Then, @benToiroh should print those up and delete any references to names or associations. Then bring them to three non-Chabad Rabbonim and ask their opinion on it.
Nom, you totally missed either the point of discussion (making requests for help from the dead) or the gemara you quoted. Either way the gemara has no implication regarding the issue at hand. It’s just a talmid chacham asking an amorah for mechilah. It’s not tefilah.
Nom, i admit when I’m wrong on here or when I’m not aware of something. You quoted a gemara erroneously, against the simple reading and the way the meforshim explain it
I don’t believe I’ve ever seen you admit to making a mistake. It can be cathartic; don’t just brush it off by saying that you’re not interested in the conversation and just jumped in to quote a source
Come on; you thought you had a counter proof and when i explained why you didn’t, you turn around and try to make yourself sound aloof.
Try being a little humble.
Yserb – great idea! Only issue is that i doubt Ben would care what non-lubavitch rabbonim have to say. They’re not enlightened.
Dear Avira,
Okay, I will try to entertain. The gemara clearly reads as the petitioner addressing the interred. Nothing else is mentioned. It’s a spot on quote. Maybe it’s irrelevant to the argument. But I was only responding to the broad claim that there is no such Chazal.
I found your first post, and read your follow up to mine. I don’t see it. What does it mean to ask forgiveness by a grave for something that occurred in the upper realms? How is that not a direct prayer? The way you explain it, what did he do wrong to Reb Chiya (From memory.) by looking at his throne?
And to be blunt, you have never clarified to me why Chabad should be singled out. Every group has some that confuse their leader with The Divine. (As they should.) That is my take on this topic which seems to trouble you endlessly.
I explained myself well. It’s none of my business because I don’t share my innermost thoughts and prayers online. Nor I do I go to any cemeteries or graves. Your turn.
@n0mesorah Not every group has some that confuse their leader with The Divine. I struggle to think of two. And certainly there aren’t influential people in these groups that believe and encourage such behavior.
Nom -it really is ok to admit when you’re wrong.
Asking for forgiveness for a personal slight against an individual is not a “prayer”. Asking for general forgiveness would be. If i ask a deceased relative to forgive me for what i did to them, it is within their power to do so, because it’sa decision on their part, as rhey are the aggrieved party. People in all circles do this at levayos. That’s not making a request for someone to help you, feed you, heal you, give you money, help you learn torah, or anything else.
If someone asked for forgiveness for being mechalel shabbos, that would in fact be tefilah and would be totally assur.
But that’s not what happened at all.
If your goal was to prove that chazal communicated with the dead, then it’s clear that they did – but in what capacity? Did they nake requests of them as one does from Hashem? Absolutely not!
Dear Yserbius,
Every group has some. These people are just overly effusive of their leaders. But when they feel safe, they move their reverence beyond any mortal boundaries.
The gemora in Perek Chelek says that each of talmidim taught that their Rebbi is Moshiach. Menachem, Shilah, Yinon and Chanina. The Rav Abarbanel and Chasam Sofer say that those make up Moshiach.
מ – מנחם, ש – שילא, י – ינון, ח – חנינא.Dear Avira,
I don’t understand how he aggrieved Rav Chiya.
Pardon my ignorance on communicating with the dead. What is the deciding factor if it is prayer or not? Why is it different than solicitating from the living?
My only point is that we find a straight petition to the interred. Don’t ask me what it means. I was only challenging your blanket statement.
If I had to chose if it is forbidden or desirable to betten the rebbe, I would choose the former. But it’s not a choice for me, because I have no interest in doing so. If your asking me to definitively prove, I can’t. Too many kabalistic implications for me. Though I admit of the two ongoing arguments on this thread, yours are superior.
@n0mesorah I do not recall the last time I saw a billboard claiming that the Rebbe Reb Yoel ZTK”L is Moshiach. If you’re trying to compare a handful of possible meshuggenas in every group to some very vocal and powerful people that make up if not a majority than at least a very significant minority of Chabad, you’re being out and out dishonest.
Dear Yserbius,
I don’t understand why it matters how vocal, powerful, or influential they are. My point is that it’s part of the package of having a religious community. How much traction it gets under it, is just a matter of circumstance.
Nom…did you learn the gemara you quoted? The talmid chacham looked in shomayim at the throne of rebbe chiya, after being told that he could look at any of the other talmidei chachamim besides for rebbe chiyah. He did it anyway and got sick. He was chutzpahdik on his level, and asked rebbe chiyah for mechila for the affront.
Or did you just google “talmudic talk with dead” and quoted it without learning the context?
And here we go again – the difference between living and dead people is a pasuk in chumash.
It’s also logical; when a person’s alive, it’s like using any other physical thing for hishtadlus; a medicine, a car, etc…but when a person is dead, what can they for you(besides talk to Hashem for you)?
It shows that he believes in the power of something besides Hashem.
The Chasam Sofer did not say Shalom Aleichem, Machnisei Rachamim and most probably Malachei Rachamim as he held that we don’t pray to malachim. Kalev visited the dead. We should daven to Hashem that he should have the dead or malachim intervene in our behalf. When we say Hamalch Hagoel, we should start from Hashem.
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