March 28, 2023 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #2177815
Reb e, we don’t ask Hashem to get tzadikim to help us: where did you get that idea from?March 28, 2023 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #2177852
No google. Just my memory. Did you look up the gemara? It doesn’t mention any chutzpa. I don’t know what you make of the upper realms, but I doubt that there is a need to maintain any decorum. It’s something of an existential condition. It’s nothing to do with the way to act.
A person believes what is in their head. How it looks to you or me, is not of consequence. “It shows that he believes in the power of something besides Hashem” is the bludgeon of Jihadists and Crusaders. Hashem Knows and is not fooled by any shows. The laws of A”Z are clearly spelled out. Beseeching a human, dead or alive; is not addressed.
And to get to the main topic. What is the difference if the body is dead or alive? The neshoma is unchanged, because it is eternal. (At least according to the Kabbalistic Gospel of Chabad. Which is older than Lubavitch itself.) The tzaddik helps you from the depth of his neshoma, so if you can ask him when his body is holding his soul, the same should apply after they seperate. I don’t know your answer on this.
[I see I missed your post about why schism is necessary in Judaism. Not all those schisms were intentional. And nowhere do chazal tell us they were needed. The justification for schism is recorded in other religion’s writings. Our seforim ignore the topic.]March 28, 2023 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #2177863Yserbius123Participant
@n0mesorah It makes all the difference in the world how powerful and influential they are! In many community you say that there are people who break the rules and claim divinity. That’s a problem that can be dealt with by a Rov or trusted person speaking with these individuals and (if needed) openly refuting their claims. However, when the Rov or trusted person is the one making the claims (or amplifying them, or at the very least, not refuting them) it’s a very different issue.March 28, 2023 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #2177878
We are discussing different things. You are talking about communal direction and power struggles. That is something each community has to adjust to their own needs and circumstances. I am responding to personal attacks on Lubavitchers over matters of personal belief. My position is that this is not a matter of Chabad. Certain types of people do not know how to accept higher authority that isn’t divine. So they combine or confuse the two. Such confounding thought experiments exist in all communities.March 28, 2023 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #2177915
Nom, what do you think “you have permission to look at all of the talmidei chachamim’s thrones, besides the throne of rebbe chiyah” means? Looking where you don’t belong is chutzpah. Afterwards, he asked for mechilah. It’s the simple pshat in the gemara.
As for beseeching dead people, it most definitely is addressed in halacha – see above. It’s also a pasuk in chumash; necromancy is strictly forbidden.
And i don’t know what jihad has to do with anything; i posited a svara – take it or leave it, but it doesn’t change the simple halacha that one is not permitted to pray to something else besides Hashem.March 28, 2023 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #2177917
As for needing to maintain decorum in shomayim, that’s all over the place in chazal. Malaachim must stand at attention and not “sit”, whatever that means; elisha ben avuyah saw Matat sitting, and thought it was shtei reshuyos, etc..
There is an entire chorus of malaachim who are commnaded to honor Hashem in varying ways at varying times…kovod and etiquette is crucial.March 29, 2023 10:26 am at 10:26 am #2178160benToirohParticipant
ADA, we know that the structure of Davening is Praise, Requests & then Thanks.
So my question is, if a powerful Melech basar vadam made a Gezaira against the Yidden chv”Sh, and the Yidden chose a Yiras Shomayim to go for an audience with the King to petition him to annul the Gezaira…
Is it ok for him to praise the King, then express his bakasha, and then express thanks for what good he may have done, or is doing by ranting the audience, or with Siata Dishmaya will do by annulling the Gezaira..???March 29, 2023 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #2178261
Ben, see above Pasuk, poskim, and logic.
Live = hishtadlus, because bederech hateva, the king/your boss/your in laws/ anyone seem to be able to help.
Dead = what are they going to do for you? They can daven for you, which is exactly wbat chazal ssked of them, but anything else would be saying that they have actual, independent power, as if Hashem gave power over to them(shituf deoraysoh)March 29, 2023 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #2178324
Even when alive, one is supposed to trust only in Hashem and ask others only as hishtadlus, as we see from yosef hatzadik, that even asking twice was already more than acceptable hishtadlus on his level.
Certainly to beg a person – tzadik or otherwise – would be largely lacking in bitachon.
And when they’re deceased? It’s just ridiculous, because even bederech hateva they can’t help. The only way they can help is if you ascribe powers to them that they do not possess.
Or if you ask them to daven for you, which is perfectly fine.March 29, 2023 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #2178320
טעמי המנהגים – קונטרס אחרון סימן אלף עא אות נ
שהקב”ה גזר כן להיות נפשות הצדיקים מצויין על הקברות לטובת ישראל, שיהיו שומעין לתחנות ותפלות ישראל הבאים להתפלל על הקברות:March 29, 2023 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #2178319
We are not allowed to daven to dead tzadikim directly. So see the MB:
משנה ברורה סימן תקפא ס”ק כז
(כז) הקברות – דביה”ק [לט] הוא מקום מנוחת הצדיקים והתפלה נתקבלה שם יותר אך אל ישים מגמתו נגד המתים אך יבקש מהש”י שיתן עליו רחמים בזכות הצדיקים שוכני עפר ויקיף הקברות ויתן צדקה קודם שיאמר התחנות. ואין לילך על קבר אחד ב”פ ביום אחד:
Avira: You are right, we daven to Hashem bizchus the tzadikim but not that they intervene in our behalf.March 30, 2023 10:14 am at 10:14 am #2178737
Dofi, there was a nevuah to to up then. Now there’s a halacha not to go en masse until moshiach.
Simple.March 30, 2023 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #2178767
I’m quite aware that they had nevi’im and we don’t. I was responding to your post on another thread where you claimed that “everyone knew bayis sheni was temporary” and that the state “holds back the true geulah”.
Your “halacha” of not going up en masse is the opinion of a daas yachid and not so “simple”. Which of the seven million Jews currently in Eretz Yisrael are violating it and where do you suggest they go?March 30, 2023 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #2178794
oops – wrong thread! that was supposed to be in the leaving galus threadMarch 30, 2023 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #2178841
Dofi, good questions – the population in eretz yisroel is under no obligation to leave, because the individuals aren’t violating the oaths by living there. They don’t have to to anywhere. But they should dismantle the state and accept being a state of the US or whatever.
Also, while it “could” have been permanent, it was never intended to be; i believe the gaon writes that. Same way chizkiyahu was fit to be moshiach, but it clearly was not the Divine plan.March 30, 2023 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #2178873
The Gemara and Medrash tell us that of course it was intended to be permanent, just as Chizkiyahu was intended to be Mashiach and just as the Divine plan has been for us to be redeemed in every generation. When we aren’t worthy, it’s delayed until the next generation. That is why every generation that isn’t redeemed is considered to have had the Beis Hamikdash destroyed in their time.March 30, 2023 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #2178887
Reb Eliezer, you quoted the Mishna Brurah. However, this is actually a great machlokes haposkim, with MANY poskim clearly ruling that one is allowed to ask deceased tzadikim (their neshamos) to intercede on their behalf.
חמדת ימים, פחד יצחק, פרי מגדים, מנחת יצחק, בצל החכמה, חוות יאיר, מנחת אלעזר, יראים, ועוד ועוד
These poskim explain clearly why this is not דורש אל המתים.
The poskim who don’t allow it have many מאמרי חז”ל to answer, where it clearly mentions תנאים ואמוראים (and Kalev) who went to קברים and spoke to the מת with various requests.
סוטה לד, ב. פסיקתא רבתי ג. ברכות יח,ב. חגיגה כב, ב. ועוד ועוד
And of course the Zohar.
Everyone should follow their minhag and their rov.March 31, 2023 8:52 am at 8:52 am #2178918
Menachem, it’s not “various requests” – ths ONLY thing you find chazal advocating is asking for the niftar to daven on your behalf.
As for the maharil and what he does with those gemaros, I’ve had a few thoughts on that. It could be that the maharil holds that we in our time shouldn’t, because we might end up relying on the neisim too much and actually think that they have power.April 2, 2023 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #2179404
>ths ONLY thing you find chazal advocating is asking for the niftar to daven on your behalf.
Avira, when I mentioned the poskim I clearly wrote “to intercede on their behalf” – because that is what most of the poskim whom I mentioned discuss.
However, when I mentioned chazal, I intentionally wrote “various requests” because if you go through those gemaras you’ll see that they did NOT only advocate for the niftar to daven on your behalf, rather they came to ask various other things from the dead (either seeking information (such as with Abaye in Brachos), or for the niftar to move his body (such as with Moshe and Yosef in סוטה יג), or to ask questions in learning, etc.)
The Rama clearly rules (יו”ד סי’ קעט סי”ד) that one is allowed to ask the neshama of a deceased person to swear that it will come to him and answer his questions.
This is what I meant by “various requests,” and I stand by what I wrote.April 2, 2023 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #2179418
Menachem – we’re talking about different things. I noted above that asking mechila is fine, and thanks for mentioning other things that are related to the meis himself(with moshe asking about burying yosef etc..)
Answering questions in learning is fine, too, because their knowledge doesn’t go away when they pass away; on the contrary, they know more torah than before.
But thanks for making me aware of the rema; i didn’t know about it before.
But i hope we can agree that bakashos, asking for assistance from shomayim, as in, health, parnosa, children, or spiritual things like help in doing teshuva, learning, etc…those are tefilos which are only for Hashem or for tzadikim to bring to Hashem.
In the context of the conversation, you need to be careful in your lashon, as many in your community believe that the lubavitcher rebbe is capable of fulfilling an individual’s bakashos.April 3, 2023 7:27 am at 7:27 am #2179477
>But i hope we can agree that bakashos . . . are tefilos which are only for Hashem or for tzadikim to bring to Hashem.”
I definitely agree.
>many in your community believe that the lubavitcher rebbe is capable of fulfilling an individual’s bakashos.
I don’t know any Lubavitchers who believe that. No one says that the Rebbe has his own kochos so we don’t need Hashem’s koach (chas v’shalom chas v’shalom. I have never heard such a thing in my life, aside from non Lubavitchers telling me that this is chas v’shalom the opinion of Lubavitchers היל”ת עפ”ל).
Everyone I know believes that we go to a tzaddik (in this case the Rebbe) to channel HASHEM’s brochos, because a tzaddik has a more direct line (as is explained in many places. There is also an interesting Chasam Sofer that explains the difference in this regard between a tzaddik and a malach (whom it is problematic to ask brochos from).
Anyone who learns chassidus will tell you that the very meaning of beracha is hamshacha (המבריך את הגפן). We go to a tzaddik to draw down the Hashem’s brochos which already exist limaala.
When a Lubavitcher says “I did this with the Rebbe’s kochos” and people jump and him and scream “avoda zorah” – I think it comes from ignorance and suspicion of Yidden who are different.
It is the same as someone saying “I made a great deal for 10,000 dollars yesterday” – no one says that the businessman doesn’t believe in Hashem ch”v, rather they understand that he means that he made a KELI for Hashem’s brochos of $10,000.
If your mindset is set that a group of people have a certain wrong belief, it can be very easy to misinterpret everything they say to fit your conception of them.April 3, 2023 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #2179547
By Birchas Kohanim, the kohen is a conduit to bring down the brochos. Similarly. the rebbe can daven alone even after the zman as he davens fpr the kelal.April 3, 2023 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #2179647
“When a Lubavitcher says “I did this with the Rebbe’s kochos” and people jump and him and scream “avoda zorah” – I think it comes from ignorance and suspicion of Yidden who are different.
It is the same as someone saying “I made a great deal for 10,000 dollars yesterday” – no one says that the businessman doesn’t believe in Hashem ch”v, rather they understand that he means that he made a KELI for Hashem’s brochos of $10,000”
Then they should say it was in their rebbe’s zchus, like literally every other chasidus does.
People aren’t “ignorant” for listening to english or yiddish words and saying that people mean what they say. When someone says that a rebbe’s kochos brought him salvation, that IS avodah zara. It’s not ignorance, and it’s not because chabad people are “different.” That’s a defense mechanism that chabad teaches people to resort to when their views are challenged or criticized. Satmar, Breslov, and many others are “different” from the majority of klal yisroel, but not in ways that make people think that they are ovdei avodah zara.
I’m not reading anything into the words that lubavitchers use; i’m using my chush ha’shmiah and hearing the words. I’m hearing shlomo cunin say that his deceased rebbe “runs the world,” I’m hearing children asked “what did you do for the rebbe today,” I’m hearing people say that their rebbe protects them(not his zchus, as in zchuso yagen aleinu), I’m hearing people ask their rebbe for bakashos, “rebbe save me,” etc..
And then sometimes I hear apologetics and explanations that make it less avodah zara-dik; if chabad meant nothing different than other chasidim, who go to rebbes, give kvitilach, pour their hearts out, and go to kvarim, then why don’t they say what they mean and talk like everyone else?
Some chabadniks think that their rebbe had indepedent power, which is shituf – a worse form of avodah zara, however, are those who say that the rebbe helping you is the same as god helping you, because he is basically god wrapped in a body, as their rebbe told them in likutei sichos. That youre alloweds to daven at a kever because youre “really” davening to god, r”l.
Then there are people like you who say that a tzadik has no independent power at all, and only channels brochos from Hashem, an idea that nobody has a real problem with.
So why don’t people like you:
1. change the way chabad talks, to reflect what you actually think
2. stop teaching kids to do things “for the rebbe”
3. completely and unequivocally denounce, and put into cherem, anyone who says that the rebbe was god, calls him boreinu like the tzfas-niks, or part of god or the essence of god wrapped in a body. Thrown out to the point where you say that they’re practicing a different religion.
But no, you’re probably going to talk about achdus and how we have enough rifts as it is. Which is what chabad teaches its students to say when talking to “snags.”
No, there can and needs to be another rift if the other side is idolatrous.
Would chabad not want to make a rift if some of its adherents started worshipping yushke, while keeping the mitzvos?April 3, 2023 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #2179723
Do you consider it within the realm of possibility that someone besides any of the seven Lubavitcher Rebbeim, zt”l will be Mashiach and would you accept this person as your King?April 3, 2023 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #2179752amiricanyeshivishParticipant
Ouch! And what is if he even learned in Ponovetz?April 3, 2023 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #2179756
Dofi, a large amount of chabadskers will say that their rebbe just “might” have been or will be moshiach. The anti meshichists, as far as I’ve seen, however, will not say clearly that he was NOT.
And this is why the antis tolerate the meshichists; they’re really not very different,and they respect where the messianics are coming from.
Menachem hasn’t expressed messianism, but he hasn’t denied it either. So give him a chance – will he say that the lubavitcher rebbe was not moshiach, or is it still a possibility?April 3, 2023 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #2179777
I will happily follow whomever Hashem appoints to be Melech Hamoshiach, and of course, I will join the rest of Klal Yisroel in accepting him as king.
Regarding whom specifically Hashem will appoint:
I do have a belief of whom Hashem will appoint to be Moshiach according to my understanding of Torah in general, and more specifically Toras Hachassidus. This understanding was also confirmed to me by my Torah teachers and by my rebbe.
Therefore, in my mind this is as definite as the rest of the details and halachos in Torah. This does not mean I don’t respect those who disagree. I respect Shamai even though my teachers taught me that Hashem definitely wants me to increase in Chanukah candles every night.
I wouldn’t mind going into the specifics of what I understand and where I learn it from if I were talking to someone in person and we were both in a true state of being able to hear and understand each other’s viewpoint.
However, it would be naïve for me to think that this could be settled on an anonymous online forum (especially when there is a several-hour wait time between each response 😀), as is evident from the COUNTLESS threads repeating the same rhetoric on these topics.
מחלוקת לשם שמים סופה להתקיים
To clarify: I understand that I didn’t answer your question. However, I am not beating around the bush. I’m explaining why my answer would be pointless as we wouldn’t understand each other anyway and would just go in circles.April 4, 2023 12:34 am at 12:34 am #2179791
Menachem, you believe in a messiah proven to be false according to the halacha recorded in the rambam. No amount of chasidus or kabalah can change a halacha pesukah.April 4, 2023 2:38 am at 2:38 am #2179796SomedayParticipant
Towards the end of Sefer Mesilas Yesharim, I believe perek 25, the MS”Y has a description of the Melech HaMashiach. A Talmid Chacham commented, that his words do sound closest in our times to the Lubavitcher Rebbe z”l.
See it with an open mind, and see if you can come up with another in the past few years who meets that description. However, being as the Rebbe z”l was niftar, it will have to be another.April 4, 2023 8:46 am at 8:46 am #2179872Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Sorry for interrupting a learned discussion, but I am yet to know of a moschihist or of a misnaged who changed their opinion based on the new reading of rishonim. Do you?
R Salanter was once confronted by a maskil in an inn. A debate was suggested, so Rav took off his jacket and suggested that the loser put on the other’s jacket (traditional v modern). When the maskil refused, Rav said there is no point in a debate where the person is not ready to follow up on the results.
So, maybe, we should compete on who has more people at his seder, or how many Yidden one taought Torah or who makes better cholent.April 4, 2023 8:50 am at 8:50 am #2179831
Someday – want a list?
The Chofetz chaim ,Rav moshe, the satmar rov, and The chazon ish all fit the bill just nicely,and they’re just the first to come to mind.
Are you a lubavitcher chosid and are you saying unequivocally that the lubavitcher rebbe was not and will not be moshiach?April 4, 2023 11:48 am at 11:48 am #2179901
Meshiach is like the sun which heals. Two made a bet the sun and the wind who can remove the jacket of one. The wind, the more it blew, the more it kept on the jacket. Whereas the sun got the individual to take off the jacket. When Shaul mixed himself with the neviim, he removed his jacket.April 4, 2023 11:54 am at 11:54 am #2179913
Your answer to this vital question is not pointless and I don’t need to understand your reasoning, so with a “yes” or “no”:
Do you consider it within the realm of possibility that someone besides any of the seven Lubavitcher Rebbeim, zt”l will be Mashiach and would you accept this person as your King?April 4, 2023 11:55 am at 11:55 am #2179915☕️coffee addictParticipant
Did you read someday’s comment
He said in the past few years and he said since he passed away he can’tApril 4, 2023 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #2179973
coffee – I read what he said, but I want to hear the word ‘no’ from a lubavitcher without the ability to be medayak their way out of it. And I’ve yet to hear this in person, or online. So I asked if he does, in fact, identify himself as a lubavitcher chossid, and if he will say the word “no” regarding the lubavitcher rebbe being moshiach.
I’ve asked this of many lubavitchers after building a friendly rapport; the conversation never ends with a simple “no.” Not once.April 4, 2023 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #2180025
I completely agree with AAQ.
This is exactly my point. Couldn’t have said it better. Just check out the countless threads going in circles.
Gadolhadofi, what exactly will be the outcome of me stating “Yes” or “No” without explaining what I mean by that and why I say that? I don’t think it will help you understand me any better. What, then, is the point?April 4, 2023 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #2180040
It will simply confirm whether an apparently knowledgeable Chabad chasid considers it within the realm of possibility that someone besides any of the seven Lubavitcher Rebbeim, zt”l will be Mashiach.
A one word answer will suffice without need of further explanation or going in circles. Why are you afraid to answer the question?April 4, 2023 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #2180039
I understand that saying “yes” is not universal; only some go so far or admit to it to outsiders.
And among those there are a few different attitudes, with complexity…while i in no way use the term to connote sophistication; a scribble is also a complex mix of lines.
So asking menachem to say he definitely thinks the rebbe is moshiach is unfair from his perspective, because there’s a grey area and a mound of….”information”… surrounding neo -chabads teaching on the issue.
So asking for a “yes” doesn’t solve it. And most will say yes to accepting moshiach “whoever that might be.”
But a definitive “no” from someone in the “anti” camp is something I’ve yet to hear.April 5, 2023 12:23 am at 12:23 am #2180101☕️coffee addictParticipant
“coffee – I read what he said, but I want to hear the word ‘no’ from a lubavitcher without the ability to be medayak their way out of it. And I’ve yet to hear this in person, or online. “
This was someday’s comment
“However, being as the Rebbe z”l was niftar, it will have to be another.“
So he’s saying since the rebbe passed away he’s not moshiachApril 9, 2023 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #2180557SomedayParticipant
In regards to your above response to me:
Yes, those gedolei hador on your list were the greatest in recent times. (Btw, my zaida z”l learned by the Ch”Ch in Radin for 16 years, and we are cousins with Maran RM”F… [I’m afraid I am identifying myself.]) Yes, as far as we know, all on your list are greater than the Lubavitcher Rebbe z”l.
However, did you see the Mesilas Yesharim I cited? He says specific qualifications that may apply to the Rebbe z”l more than anyone, even more than those bigger than him all around. Of course, Mashiach will be a talmid chacham and tzaddik. But possibly not necessarily the biggest t”ch & tzaddik.
I had a question. How will the Melech HaMashiach be anyone from our generation, no matter who, when it will be after techiyas hamaisim with Rebbe Akiva Eiger walking around? With the Vilna Gaon, the Rashba, the Ramban, the Rambam and Rashi? Abaiye veRava? Rebbe Meir and all the Tanaim? Even Dovid Hamelech? The Avos? Moishe Rabeinu, who it is apikursis to believe anyone could be a bigger navi? How will someone from today will be on top of all of them? R’ Yeruchum in Daas Torah asks something similar.
It just must be, that this is the ratzon of H’, that Mashiach will be from the generation of his coming, with certain qualities, but lav davka the biggest around.
As for your 2nd personal question of me: I happen to shtam from the first chasidim of the Alter Rebbe. (There were about 5.) The first 6 Rebbes were meshadech with my mishpacha. We are cousins with the “Heintege Rebbe” (that’s his name) z”l. My elter zaida was a Rosh Yeshiva in Russia before WW1.
(Most Lubavitchers today are from the Heintige Rebbe z”l or the Friedeke Rebbe. Behind their backs we call them the “tzu gekumeners””. We are the “geboiriners.” However, through a series of events, my Zaida z”l was a yasom as a boy, ended up in a Litvish Yeshiva, became an adam gadol, and lost all ties to Lubavitch. So, I am not a Lubavitcher, but I have some affinity to it. (I have what to answer to any misnagdus taanois too.)
As per your request for me to clarify my stance, yes, I “ unequivocally (agree) that the lubavitcher rebbe was not and will not be moshiach.” This is based on the understanding that Mashiach will be from the living (not really sure of the source of that.) So since the Rebbe z”l was niftar, that takes the Rebbe z”l out of the running.April 9, 2023 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #2180565
Someday – i was hoping that you’d be the first lubavitcher chossid to tell me that their rebbe was not moshiach; turns out that you’re a supporter of lubavitch, but not in the community fully. And that’s a very common approach that admirers of chabad will go with, and i respect that others, including some in the Yeshiva world, had or have a favorable view of the lubavitcher rebbe – that’s not a big deal to me. What is a big deal to me is the notion that the lubavitcher rebbe is the Messiah or worse…April 14, 2023 9:28 am at 9:28 am #2180995
There is forty years in between the coming of Moshiach and Techiyas Hamesim.April 14, 2023 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #2181002ujmParticipant
Reb Eliezer: Vi shteit?April 16, 2023 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #2181401
In Senhadrin 99a. it indicates a minimum 40 years excluding R’ Hilel who says according to the Rav Aberbanel that no time will be in between.April 17, 2023 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #2181644
My apologies for bringing this unpleasant topic back. I was offline since before Yom Tov. If you want to move my point away from the general conversation, you can concede that he made a request of Rav Chiya which is not the same as davening to him. I don’t know if it is a good enough answer for the topic and I don’t care. But I am very sure that if you would have an actual recording of the Hienteger that when he dies it’s time to let go and realize that we are mere mortals, that it would have zero impact on any Meshechist.
Now to the gemara. The thrones moving on their own can’t have any relation to the Malachim Omdim of Kedusha. That would a more flagrant kefirah than we have here. I think you were just inferring, but I don’t have any reason to agree with you. Yeshiva shel maalah is past the decorum stage of honorable existence. I made that last sentence up. Please give me a sevara to the opposite effect.
With that admission. I don’t see anything in the gemara about chutzpa. It seems like his human eyes could not stand up to the eternal light of Rav Chiya’s Torah. A mashal would be to stare into the sun for a long time would burn our eyes beyond repair.April 17, 2023 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #2181789
>UJM: Reb Eliezer: Vi shteit?
זהר ח”א קלט, א
However, this is only regarding general klal Yisroel.
It seems that great tzaddikim will rise immediately after the coming of Moshiach.
ראה יומא ה, בApril 17, 2023 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #2181817Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
For the record. When L rebbe was not speaking already and meshugas started, one L rav called the secretariat and ask how he can be helpful
They told him to tell the velt that the meshugas was not coming from them, and he said that publiclyApril 18, 2023 10:19 am at 10:19 am #2181951
Once again, please confirm whether you, an apparently knowledgeable Chabad chasid considers it within the realm of possibility that someone besides any of the seven Lubavitcher Rebbeim, zt”l will be Mashiach.
A one word answer will suffice without need of further explanation or going in circles. Why are you so afraid to answer this simple question?April 18, 2023 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #2182084
Menachem, your prove from Yoma 5 is according to the Yerushalmi quoted by Horav Tosfas Yom Tov in Maaser Sheni (5, 2) and discussed in great detail in Aim Habanim Semaicha, Perek 3, that the building of the Beis Hamikdash will be before the coming of Meshiach on which the one of fire will descend.April 20, 2023 10:07 am at 10:07 am #2182543CSParticipant
“ I’ve asked this of many lubavitchers after building a friendly rapport; the conversation never ends with a simple “no.” Not once.”
That’s actually amazing although in many schools today there’s no education on the topic (I was lucky I asked for it in high school), so I wouldn’t be surprised if you’d get an ignorant no from my generation. But after learning the sichos and shiurim myself, it’s not really possible to think otherwise. (I’m not learned enough to define hakachic status such as bchezkas moshiach and Vadai etc to The Rebbe) it seems the basis for it all is logically understanding what The Rebbe said, not the halachic status. So whether The Rebbe lost his halachic status as bchezkas moshiach etc after gimmel Tammuz, or whether Chassidim doing The Rebbes work is a halachic continuation etc, regardless, The Rebbe will eventually manifest the halachic status because the process of Geula, led by The Rebbe has already begun.
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