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De Beers spearheaded the idea of getting engaged with a diamond engagement ring with its mass advertising only seventy five years ago. This is a newfangled idea. It has no place in Jewish tradition.
The same with brides wearing a white gown for their wedding. It only first became a thing when Queen Victoria wore a white gown to her wedding.
And the problem of going to a hotel room, a place infamous for the types of activities it is notorious for, on the holiest day of your life is perhaps the most shocking of all.
Following close behind is the videotaping of the women dancing at the chasuna on their side of the mechitza. In virtually every case that video will be seen by frum men after the chasuna countless times.
Yidden are not supposed to, or even allowed to, copy the “minhagim” of the Goyim. And even when not technically assur it surely goes against the spirit and kedusha of Torah and Yiddishkeit. Especially during one of the holiest times of our lives when we get married.
YTV Alumni: Ashreicha for your kanyus. I am sure you still wear robes and turban and have not copied the goyishe custom to wear pants.
YTValumni, what you just said, I said it here, in this YWN Coffee Room, 2.5 years ago:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-reduce-the-cost-of-getting-married
This is what I said here, 2.5 years ago:
“The Diamond Engagement Ring is part of American — not Jewish — culture,
and it is only found in places where American culture is influential.There has never been a Halachic requirement to give a Diamond Engagement Ring.
Therefore, eliminating the Diamond Engagement Ring
is a great way to reduce the cost of getting married.
There should be no Engagement Ring, even without a diamond.”The entire concept of a wedding comes from lavan lol. So ye
Interesting.
First, a general observation: many things that the goyim do actually have their roots in our mesorah. That doesn’t make their version right, of course, but just worth noting.Now, let’s take your points one at a time:
There is certainly a mekor for giving gifts of jewelry to the Kallah, as we see from Eliezer eved Avraham and on.
There are mekoros for wearing white, in various contexts, as it is a sign of purity, which makes sense considering that they just had their personal Yom Kippur that day.
The types of hotels to which newlyweds go (meaning, nothing you would allow your kids to go near) are very unlikely to be infamous for those types of activities.
The solution to that is either for men to not watch that video or, better, for the videographer to create two final videos: one with the dancing and one without.
The last point is certainly true, though.I would like to know exactly where, in your mind, a chassin and Kallah with no apartment of their in the area own are supposed to sleep in their wedding night?
Not to mention confetti.
Can you please inform the plan where a young couple with no apartment yet should go after their wedding?
who hurt you?
One way is to add a mitzvah to the wedding – set up new couples at the wedding. Easiest way to do that is to allow mixed seating for singles and some forethinking of how to seat people. Can probably be done some other way for those who think that their tradition is to not allow that. As a result, you are now spending money not on yourself but doing mitzvah and also those new couples save thousands of dollars on middlepersons and restaurant meals.
ytvalumni,
Amazing how many people, even Roshei Yeshiva, are violating these cardinal sins! So when will you be opening g’machs for colored bride’s gowns and providing private accommodations for couples to stay in after their wedding? Or are you just another loud-mouthed troll on this site?
Let me start by saying you are not an alumni of ytv. You are an alumnus (masculine singular) of ytv. You may not have studied Latin at ytv, but I did have six years of Latin in my formal education. I cringe when I see people misuse words they do not understand. Alumni is masculine plural. You and your classmates together are alumni.
Next, a diamond ring as an engagement gift is an American tradition that dates back much farther than 75 years. My father Z”L gave one to my mother in 1940 (85 years ago), it is now worn by my eldest grandson’s wife. My Zaidy Z”L gave a diamond engagement ring to my bubbe in 1917. My Opa Z”L gave one to my Ona in 1910—-115 years ago all in NYC.
The men all received gold watches from the kallahs’ parents. I don’t hear you calling for the elimination of the chassan’s gift to save money.
BTW, the rings and watches were all purchased from Jewish craftsmen who made their parnassah from this trade.
You are not obligated to buy anything you cannot afford. Years ago many chassans gave a modest ring and if successful in business, etc gave a larger stone on a 25th or 50th anniversary. Today many choose a lab grown diamond for a fraction of the cost of natural stones.This is a discussion best had between chassan and Kallah as to expectations and finances.
Do not give what you cannot afford. Do not go into debt for a ring and do not pressure parents/grandparents to subsidize this purchase.
BTW, many people give rings with colored gemstones (sometimes with diamond accents) that cost a fraction of a diamond ring.
YTAlumni: So its assur for the kallah to wear a white dress but totally OK if she wears black (which has become stylish among some of Gen Zs?
And the wedding ring can be with other gems but not diamonds. And after the chassanah is over, they should sleep in the yichud room at the simcha hall or perhaps in the storage room in the back of the kitchen. Or even better, schedule a flight for their honeymoon that leaves JFK very early in the AM so they can just go directly to the airport and wait in the frequent flyer lounge in Terminal 2.
All great ideas to avoid even the a remote impression that they are following goiyeshe minhagim.
>>>De Beers spearheaded the idea of getting engaged with a diamond engagement ring with its mass advertising only seventy five years ago. This is a newfangled idea. It has no place in Jewish tradition.
It’s possible that a diamond engagement ring is a recent innovation but the general concept is not. The Gemora talks about the customary gifts Chasanim send to kallas. The Torah talks about the jewelry Eliezer gave Rivka. Some of this is just current style. Just imagine a Chosson giving a nose ring like Eliezer did today
>>>The same with brides wearing a white gown for their wedding. It only first became a thing when Queen Victoria wore a white gown to her wedding.
It is extremely unlikely that some who got married in the 1800s set the precedent for all brides even in many parts of non-western society.
Secondly apparently frum kallas wore white for a very long time. From the reasons given for why Ashkenazi kallas do not wear any jewelry under the chupa is because due to the kedusha of the moment she should be symbolically dressed like the Kohen Gadol in the Kadosh Hakodoshim on Yom Kippur who removed his gold clothing and wore only wore white . Another reason is that similar to the choson who wears a kitel under the chupa. (among other reasons ) to be reminiscent of Yom Kippur when we wear white we want her to do the same
I agree about the hotel room.
Listen the whole marriage thing is a construct. Lol you don’t have to do any of it. Someone told you down the line that in order to take a wife you need to make a whole baalagan in front of your family and you _have_ to say a bunch of blessings and you _have_ to give a ring. In biblical times they didn’t do that. Noone did. So what changed. Don’t stop yourself from taking a wife your own way. You don’t have to do things the way you were tought you can do things the way that work for you also. And multiple wives is a thing too just so you know
Ok I’m joking but I think men are miserable. I think it’s time for a paridihm shift. Either that or all the men will continue cheating as usual
White wedding gowns are also universal in Muslim weddings. What do Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have in common? Oh right…
Just to make one correction to your opening statement.
WHITE GOWNS ARE A TAKONAS CHAZAL.
It comes from the fact that in the times of Chazal the concept of colored clothing was a huge expense as it requires much much much work when you are threading the loom. When making a pattern, every few lines the thread needs to be changed for the design to be nice and pleasant on the eye. Hence the great jealousy the Shevatim had to Yosef when Yaakov made for him a kesones pasim (a striped suit). It wasn’t as simple as Yaakov walking into Macy’s and buying 10 straight black suits and Yosef got a pinstripe. The work of making a striped suit was a tremendous amount of work.
Chazal knew that not every kallah would be able to afford a fancy gown and therefore were מתקן that every kallah wears white כדי שלא לבייש את מי שאין לה.(Similarly, on Tu B’Av all the marriageable aged girls borrowed WHITE dresses for the same reason).
Heard once from Rav Nissin Kaplan Shlit”a that what is referred to in the zemiros of Friday night. One of the descriptions of Shabbos is that she is ככלה בין רעותיה משובצה. Every kallah wears white. So how do you know who is a fancy kallah and who is a simple kallah? By her friends. If her friends are all dressed to the nines, then you know she is fancy kallah. And if her friends are dressed shabby, its probably a more simple kallah.
So too when it comes to our Shabbos. If you really respect Shabbos, for the sake of Shabbos, you will make sure that there is a beautiful Shabbos in EVERYONE else’s house. Because if the fancy flowers/clothing/food is truly for the sake of Shabbos, what difference does it make if its on your table or the table of someone else??? And how more special would it be for someone who can’t afford it!!
That is connection we are referring to of Shabbos and the Kallah. Just as the Kallah’s friends tell us the where she stands in society, so too, the way we care for our friends Shabbos tells us how much we respect the Shabbos!Giving a diamond ring may not be an ancient custom but it sure became a Jewish one, when Jewish composers Jule Styne and Leo Robin wrote the song “Diamonds Are a Girl’s Best Friend”.
Grow up.
The entire wedding is a goyish concept constructed by lavan to mess with yaakov. We still copy it to the t. Why?
“De Beers spearheaded the idea of getting engaged with a diamond engagement ring with its mass advertising only seventy five years ago. This is a newfangled idea. It has no place in Jewish tradition.”
—
My wife has a diamond ring in her possession that my Great-Grandfather (a jeweler by trade) made for his wife my Great-Grandmother. It certainly predates the great depression, so it’s at least 96 years old. The universal use of a diamond ring is, as you say, a result of DeBeers advertising, but engagement rings were in widespread use long before that. It’s just that those rings might have different gems, not just diamonds.Nevertheless, I think it’s a good idea to deprecate expensive items like diamond engagement rings or fur streimels or silk bekeshes in order to reduce the expense and burden of weddings.
—
My wife has a diamond ring in her possession that my Great-Grandfather (a jeweler by trade) made for his wife my Great-Grandmother. It certainly predates the great depression, so it’s at least 96 years old. The universal use of a diamond ring is, as you say, a result of DeBeers advertising, but engagement rings were in widespread use long before that. It’s just that those rings might have different gems, not just diamonds.Nevertheless, I think it’s a good idea to deprecate expensive items like diamond engagement rings or fur streimels or silk bekeshes in order to reduce the expense and burden of weddings.
Wanna
Most frum communities have Chosson and Kallah temporary apartments for rent until they find a long-term rent and yes that’s where they should go straight from their wedding hall.
There’s always some nasty commenter on these threads. notarebbe who hurt _you_ who says that to someone. My goodness and we call ourselves am hanivchar the “chosen” nation even non Jews don’t treat each other with such snarky stuck up attitude. We have a lot to work on and one of them is our extreme disconnection with actual morality
There was no apartment for temp use where I got married or at least nobody told us about a place. And neither of us lived there. A nice safe hotel is perfectly appropriate and normal. Many hotels people used to get married in included a room as part of the package.
But the funny thing is you reminded me of a story. Our friends (considerably younger) married in a large community where there is some sort of basement apartment that couples could rent for short amounts of time while their apartment was being readied. Turns out the place was gross. As I recall they were navigating newlywed time time and mold + bugs. So we ended up with a newlywed couple moving in to our basement for about 2 weeks while they relocated.
ExCTL, your knowledge of Latin notwithstanding, “yeshiva alumnus” makes as much sense as “Yale lamdan”, at least until yeshivos put Latin into their curricula.
@AAQ
To add to your comment about Yeshiva Alumnus:
There is the general misconception that alumni means graduates. An alumnus is merely someone who attended an educational institution. All graduates are alumni, but not all alumni are graduates.
As for your Yale lamdan comment, it is no secret that I am a New Haven native who refused to attend Yale (I turned them down) instead attending another Ivy: PENN (Wharton School of Finance). That did not stop my lamdus
I have 4 university degrees (including 2 Doctorates) over a lifetime and still learn hours each day.BTW, two of my sons attended YTV and Brooklyn College at night, where they both took Latin classes. Latin was quite useful in law school.
They run the CTL firm now that I Amin semi-retirement.ExCTL, you had me at the second doctorate! I can’t imagine going for the 2nd …
Maybe it is a yakkish thing – Herr Dr Dr …a PhD in USA is really a sign that you are able to do research in general, not just on the narrow topic of your thesis?
then what does the second one mean!? That the first one was not good enough?!I would do Latin to read Roman history in the original. Even reading english translations show things that we do not have in popular culture. for example, I thought that Roman republic ended when empire came. Not in the eyes of Romans – they simply considered it a republic with an emperor … Gemorah seems to be of the same opinion. Avoda Zara mentions that Roman heads of state (on the example of Antoninos) is not hereditary like in other countries. Antoninos asked R Yehuda – I can ask Senate for one favor – should I ask them to make my son emperor or should I ask to lower taxes for Jews? Answer: ask them for the son, and let the son ask for the Jews …
@AAQ
PHd, does original research in the field of knowledge and defends the work before faculty and peers.Not all Doctorate degrees are PHds
I have a PHd in one field, and a J.D.(Juris Doctor) degree in law. In fact law is the one American academic discipline where a doctorate is a lower degree than a Master’s degree. After my JD, I studied for and was awarded an LLM (Masters of Legal Letters) degree .
Many public school principals have Ed. Degrees which is 60 credits past their Master’s degree with often no thesis or original research required and no defense. It just brings a higher rate of pay. Many do these on line.Schooling in general is a scam.
ExCTL, this makes sense. Other Ds, I understand. MD/PhD is also a thing for doing medical research.
BTW, the joke “is this reservation for a PhD or for a _real_ doctor” that was hanging around the department where I was doing it is incorrect:
original doktors were PhDs, medical doctors were stam barbers who did not pretend to do it scientifically.Dr. CTL: Well done!
There’s always some nasty commenter on these threads… My goodness and we call ourselves am hanivchar the “chosen” nation even non Jews don’t treat each other with such snarky stuck up attitude.
Ever heard of Twitter? Lol
Your right
Menachem > Ever heard of Twitter? Lol
I don’t understand this attitude. It is assimilation, and I don’t care how much fur is on your hat. How can one dare to deviate from the integrity of our tradition? Just because the world is talking like that? Do you know what was popular during Mishna times? read some of the popular greek literature at the time – some of it will not be allowed on internet ourdays… Did Tannaim use their style?
The most frequent offense against Jewish discussion seems to be the “Free speech” allowance for using any arguments you can to convince the other side. In that theory, free speech enables all information to come to the table and leads to better decisions overall. There is certainly value to that where it belongs – politics, science, but our tradition is pretty clear about it: Beis Hillel eventually won the argument because they were quoting both sides and quoting Beis Shammai’s opinion first. Anyone who comes to quote “all rabbis say X” and quoting only some of them is in obvious violation.
Anywho this entire thread could have also started off “why do we make wedding at all, isn’t it copying lavan” always ask questions if your allowing mixed seating at a wedding for shudduchik why don’t you just allow men and woman meet naturally without a shidduch resume….stupid system
none > why don’t you just allow men and woman meet naturally
There should be a balance somewhere. When the world shows great progress, say in building cars or medicine, we should pay attention. But there are no great advances in marriages, so why copy?
Cuz your two opposites of two _extrmes_ and there are many many unhappy people in the mix. People unhappy with who they married. People unhappy _in_ marriage and people unhappy with the marriage system. I propose a middle ground of _both_ worlds. Our system is actually very broken for a lot of people. Maybe ask a long time married guy how miserable he is.
Anyways it’s also not about balance it’s about opportunity of you keep trying to control the environment people have to meet you control who people meet and then don’t let G-d work His will. Just saying. If your anyways trusting singles to sit together at a wedding I’m sure you can trust them even if they bump into each other on the street. There’s really no difference respectfully your just trying to convince yourself there is
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