“I would need to know exactly how many children in the full 95k, would get autism from genetics even without MMR”

No you dont, you will never know as the 95k are not all in the same group.
Why would you ask for something thats not possible tonmnow if your honestly looking at this from a statistical standpoint?

“why do you think one more study would be different?”

It will only be different if it concludes the same as the radical anti-medicine people. Otherwise, it is worthless.

It can also be worthwhile, if they can cherry-pick a paragraph or cherry pick what data and just post half of the data to make it seem as if it proves their position.

Cherry Picking:
“suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.”

“Group B – No Sibling ASD, No MMR (5 yrs)

7,735 children

68 Autistic (860 × .08)”

You mean 0.8 which is fractional to 0.9

you cannot cherry pick data, since you are looking at age 5, it would be interesting to note that children with just one dose had higher rates of ASD than those that had two vaccines.
Also, since we are still at age 5,
Fully vaccinated children had a rate of 0.5%
Unvaccinated at all: 0.7%

Quoted from the study.
“We also found no evidence that receipt of either 1 or 2 doses of MMR vaccination was associated with an increased risk of ASD among children who had older siblings with ASD. As the prevalence of diagnosed ASD increases, so does the number of children who have siblings diagnosed with ASD, a group of children who are particularly important as they were undervaccinated in our observations as well as in previous reports.”

“The prevalence of ASD among all index children in the study sample was 1.04%, comparable with the current estimate of ASD prevalence of 1.5% in the general US population.28 In addition, the younger siblings of children with ASD had a 6.9% risk of ASD, also consistent with published estimates ranging from 6.4% to 24.7%.”

“Conclusions
In this large sample of privately insured children with older siblings, receipt of the MMR vaccine was not associated with increased risk of ASD, regardless of whether older siblings had ASD. These findings indicate no harmful association between MMR vaccine receipt and ASD even among children already at higher risk for ASD.”

Dooms,

“MMR does Not Cause Autism. Which is like saying if Non-Smokers get Cancer, that is PROOF that Smoking
does NOT cause Cancer!”

– Incorrect, it is as if the smoking group and the non smoking group both would have had the same rate of cancer, since both groups have the same rate of autism this shows that MMR does not play a factor.

Dooms,

which study are you referring to?

There are a number of studies showing that children with siblings that have autism are more likely to be diagnosed with autism, this shows that there is a genetic factor at play.

Besides, you need to understand some vocabulary, if the study concludes other than your preference, that is not the meaning of fraud or more fraud.

you wrote:
“The Study found some Children who did not get MMR who have Autism. This is used to PROCLAIM:”

– Incorrect, the study finds no difference between those that received the MMR vaccine and those that have not. This is not the same as “the study found some Children who did not get the MMR who have autism”.

I guess twisting words and making up your own facts is not associated with fraud in your mind. Only using evidence to make sound and evidence-based decisions is.

“BUT I DID NOT CITE the anti-vax website 2Cents is attacking. I Cited: FocusForHealth.Org

Once again, 2Cents is caught Lying! 2Cents has ZERO Credibility!”

a. you did write health.org.
b. I should have realized the spaces should have been part of the website, sorry for not knowing that.
c. this is a discussion about facts, I am glad that you finally are willing to look beyond the poster and focus on the facts.

”
Bad genes.

NO! Vaccines are causing Autism.”

– Once again, you do not get to make up your own facts.

as of now, we have the following:

a. No change between children that have received vaccines and autism.
b. We do have children with older siblings that were diagnosed with autism that have a much higher rate of autism.

Now explain the above with the facts that you made up.

Dooms,

You dont get to decide what is right and what is wrong, also you dont get to make up facts.

I feel sorry that you have an anti medicine and anti scientific view to sell, the rest of us will continue to focus on the evidence at hand and make evidence based decisions.

keej123

“Because you can’t claim that their Autism is operating at the same rate, unless you take their cause into consideration. If their cause is genetics, so at what rate is genetics operating in comparison to what MMR would be operating. ”

Once again, the argument or concern you raise is only after you establish that the MMR actually operates, the study proves that the MMR has zero effect on autism rates, which is why there is no difference between the group that got the MMR shot and the ones that have not.

To simplify it, lets say the cause of autism is genetics (which the data clearly points in that direction, as noted in my previous post), that would explain why the rate of autism is not dependant on any other factors.

I think that you have a misconception and believe that the MMR vaccine plays a factor and the only question is how much of a factor, that would be the only explanation for your questions. Yet the study proves that the MMR vaccine plays no factor and is in line with the many other studies that all show the same.

Bais Hillel

“If I missed anything, you are more than welcome to add to the collection.”

yup, you missed the entire point of the study.

If you check out the Bandim Health project, which Dr Peter Aaby undertook in 1978 you would actually understand that he and the project actually observed that vaccines actually played a significant role in reducing mortality.

It was the groups opinion that the DTP vaccine actually had negative effects and increased mortality vs those that got the OPV vaccine.

However, the study has some issues, first off this was the groups bias, second the very small group that it studied.

It had 18 deaths. with some that were documented as sudden or no information, with a small cohort every single death in a group pushes the results in one direction.

The WHO addresses this and many other studies on the DTP vaccine, it categorizes the studies by high risk of bias vs very high risk of bias.

“Total kids at risk is the entire group, not just the No-MMR kids.”

Explain please, what risk are you referring to, and why is the entire group exposed to this risk.

Keej123,

Sorry for being late in the discussion.

Not sure what you are trying to uncover.

The actual study actually splices the data in all directions, showing no change with MMR vaccine.

If there are a group of people that have a different variable (such a genetics) which would result in the MMR vaccine together with variable have some sort of synergistic effect and cause the child to develop autism, if that were the case, the group receiving the MMR vaccine would have a higher percentage of cases of autism.

Since the variable is evenly spread across both groups, if it was the case like you suggested that the variable would cause the MMR shot to cause autism, the group receiving the MMR vaccine would have had a higher percentage of autism cases, as this is the only group that has the variable together with the MMR vaccine.

Now, this is all assuming that such a variable exists, however, this is just made up hypothetical stuff to satisfy an unsubstantiated agenda that the MMR vaccine plays a roll and is a cause of autism.

As of now, the data suggests that genetics are what is causing autism.
PubMed 24794370
PubMed 21844053

Parents with children that were diagnosed with Autism are less likely to vaccinate their other children vs other parents, yet the risk of their other children developing autism is significant.

There are multiple billing agencies that specialize in ambulance billing, they probably charge a percentage of what is billed or a flat fee per claim.

They have a team that requests the billing information from the hospital and have the necessary software required.

While I have no clue if Hatzoloh would hire such a service, almost every ambulance agency does, I believe Hatzolah would do so as well.

With regards to EMTALA, that is not the case, the law states that care cannot be delayed by asking for insurance and billing information, this is to assess and stabilize a patient.

Yet most patients that arrive at the hospital are stable and do not require immediate treatment. These patients are registered prior to being treated.

Regardless, the billing agency is tasked with getting the patients billing information.

I will once again stress, I am sure there are reasons against billing, however, misinformation should not be thrown around.

keej123

Re the JAMA study, not following your concern.

This is what you write.

” The normal children received that amount of MMR exposure, showing that the exposure itself isn’t the determining cause of autism”

This is where you err, it shows no association at all, your implying that there is an association yet just ‘not in itself” when in fact the study proves that there is no association at all.

Furthermore, if you actually read the study as you claim you did, you would notice there are in fact correlations of lower autism associated with those that were vaccinated. But in reality this has nothing to do with vaccines, only that children that have siblings that were diagnosed with autism are rather to be unvaccinated, yet they have a greater chance of being diagnosed with autism.

Another point the study makes, which the anti vaccine people disagree with is that genetics play a roll, that would diminish the argument they make against vaccines.

“As the prevalence of diagnosed ASD increases, so does the number of children who have siblings diagnosed with ASD,”

I do feel bad for the mods having to read through all these posts, I guess I will slow down.

“Did I mention they sent us a fruit basket? It was very nice.”

– They are poisoning you with Formaldehyde.

Besides, all people that ate fruit at one point eventually died.

apy,

It seems that this is for all their transports, this will significantly reduce their need to rely on fundraising, it also seems that other areas including Catskills Hatzolah have been doing this for a longer period of time, for all their transports.

Not sure if this played a factor, but from what I heard Hatolahs communication system is very outdated and an upgrade would be more than 20 million dollars, this is just one item on the list that is a direct result of being limited to fundraising for their expenses.

Other saying these studies exist, you have not provided them. So how can they be reviewed?

All the other nonsense stuff you mention, are just your (or probably from anti medicine websites) own made up facts. You have been told a number of times, the facts and data should be the deciding factor about this, not your beliefs (or your own facts).

“My advice to dooms is to discontinue posting, as these clowns who promote vaccines are the real cultist and rotfim that should ousted from the community.”

Nice, you begin your post as if your a moderate and level headed person, yet your last paragraph exposes your radical beliefs.

If you call people that form their decisions based on facts and evidence clowns, i guess people that hang onto lies and garbage science are those that you respect.

Unlike you, i would encourage anyone with real data and science to present it, regardless on which side if the argument they stand.

Until that happens, we have overwhelming evidence as well almost the entire scientific, medical and rabinical community that stand by the evidence that vaccines are safe and should be given.

“Dr. Joseph Biederman was a researcher who made Fraudulent Studies for Pharmaceutical Companies.
In addition to being paid the standard fee as a researcher, the Pharmaceutical Companies also paid
Biederman $1.6 MILLION in “consulting” and “speaking” fees. In other words Biederman got a $1.6 Million BRIBE from Pharmaceutical Companies as a reward for making Fraudulent Studies for them!”

What in the world does this have to do with Vaccines?

By the way, this actually proves the integrity of the evidence-based medicine system, should someone be caught with a conflict of interest and not disclose it, they will be disciplined as Dr Biederman was.

I would like to see the ‘alternative’ people have this regard for science as the medical world does.

If Wakefield is good for you and you hold him in such high regard, why is Dr Biederman suddenly a bad person? why is the scientific community now to blame only because one person had a nondisclosed conflict of interest and was exposed and disciplined?

This nicely proves its integrity.

From Dooms.

“Folks, PROOF 2Cents is a Liar:”

Hey, you dont need any proof, I am OK with you calling people names, But can we act like grownups and look at the data for a moment?

Why would my integrity matter here unless you do not care about the facts?

Or you assume that we all makeup facts like you do.

Dooms,

“he Fraud is that Phillipine Vaccine Schedule has only a FRACTION of ALUMINUM that the CDC Schedule has”

You know that until you do not prove what you wrote, no one will take your word for it.

“BEFORE 1992, the Fake researchers ONLY counted autistic children in HOSPITALS. AFTER 1992, the Fake researchers included autistic children who were living at HOME (outpatients)! There are TEN TIMES as
many Autistic Children living at Home then in Hospitals.”

Which Danish study are you referring to, there are a number of them, they are all very large.

I actually took the time to read the Danish study that was published in the NEJM titled “A POPULATION-BASED STUDY OF MEASLES, MUMPS, AND RUBELLA
VACCINATION AND AUTISM”
Nowhere does it state that there has been a change in 1995 on what type of patients they were focused on. furthermore, some of the same patients that have not gotten the MMR vaccine have also not gotten other vaccines, yet the rate of autism was the same.

This is the conclusion;
“There was no association between
the age at the time of vaccination, the time since vaccination, or the date of vaccination and the development of autistic disorder.”

yet you and the radical website age of autism have figured out that this is just a fraud.

maybe you are referring to this study? (JAMA Pediatr. 2013 Oct;)

“CONCLUSIONS AND RELEVANCE:
Our population-based recurrence risk estimate is lower than the recently reported estimates from clinical samples. Our results demonstrate no time trend in the ASDs recurrence risk as seen in the ASDs prevalence. The difference in the recurrence risk between full- and half-siblings supports the role of genetics in ASDs, while the significant recurrence risk in maternal half-siblings may support the role of factors associated with pregnancy and the maternal intrauterine environment in ASDs.”

Also, you do know that age of autism is not a source, you make a claim like this, you DO need to prove it.

“AFTER 1992, The Danish Government CHANGED the Definition of Autism to a more inclusive one.
THAT is ANOTHER REASON, why the number of children diagnosed with Autism Went Up!!!”

Source?
Also, are you implying that the increase in autism is due to a changed definition? if so, does this also disprove your notion that vaccines are the cause for the increase in autism?

“3. All the Researchers were Employees or had Close Connection to Vaccine Industry which they did NOT
Disclose. This is FRAUD.”

Other than they reaching conclusions and findings that are inconsistent with your belief, is there any reason that you are making these accusations?

“4. One researcher, Poul Thorson, was indicted on 22 counts of Fraud and fled USA and is on the Most Wanted Criminals List. These are the “Holy Researchers” employed by the CDC!”

First off, its Thorsen not Thorson. Second, he has stolen money from the CDC, this is not a secret and has nothing to do with his research.
Third, he was not the lead researcher on any of the studies regarding vaccines.

I have posted multiple studies that clearly show that vaccine safety has been extensively researched and all studies have come to a similar conclusion, vaccines are safe.

I am sorry that you need to resort to twisting the truth and making up facts, the rest of the world prefers to rely on real studies and not gotcha statements that are far from the truth.

Sorry if you feel offended or as an outcast, that is what people like you are. ‘Alternative’ people, that have a dislike to evidence and research-based medicine.

While the arguments against billing seem serious, its bassed on an assumption of the facts.

A lot of hypothetical stuff. Do the areas that already bill including Catskill send bills to the patients?

More studies proving vaccine safety and debunking myths by radical anti-medicine websites.

Study of total population showing no change to Autism despite completely stopping to vaccinate. (PMID: 15877763)

“RESULTS:
The MMR vaccination rate in the city of Yokohama declined significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1992, and not a single vaccination was administered in 1993 or thereafter. In contrast, cumulative incidence of ASD up to age seven increased significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1996 and most notably rose dramatically beginning with the birth cohort of 1993.
CONCLUSIONS:
The significance of this finding is that MMR vaccination is most unlikely to be a main cause of ASD, that it cannot explain the rise over time in the incidence of ASD, and that withdrawal of MMR in countries where it is still being used cannot be expected to lead to a reduction in the incidence of ASD.”

Immunization Safety Review: Vaccines and Autism. institute of Medicine, The National Academies Press: 2004

“The committee rejected a causal relationship between the MMR vaccine and autism as well as a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism.”

Review of autistic children shows no regression that is related to the MMR vaccine. PMID: 16729252

“There was no evidence that onset of autistic symptoms or of regression was related to measles-mumps-rubella vaccination. The implications of these findings for the existence of a ‘regressive phenotype’ of ASD are discussed.”

No difference in developmental disorders despite not being exposed to thimerosal. Fombonne E, et al., Pediatrics. 2006; 118(1): e139-50

“CONCLUSIONS:
The prevalence of pervasive developmental disorder in Montreal was high, increasing in recent birth cohorts as found in most countries. Factors accounting for the increase include a broadening of diagnostic concepts and criteria, increased awareness and, therefore, better identification of children with pervasive developmental disorders in communities and epidemiologic surveys, and improved access to services. The findings ruled out an association between pervasive developmental disorder and either high levels of ethylmercury exposure comparable with those experienced in the United States in the 1990s or 1- or 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccinations”

No association between Thimerosal and autism. Hviid, et al., Journal of the American Medical Association. 2003; 290(13):1763-6

“CONCLUSION:
The results do not support a causal relationship between childhood vaccination with thimerosal-containing vaccines and development of autistic-spectrum disorders.”

Increase in autism when thimerosal was discontinued showing no correlation. PMID: 12949291

“CONCLUSIONS:
The discontinuation of thimerosal-containing vaccines in Denmark in 1992 was followed by an increase in the incidence of autism. Our ecological data do not support a correlation between thimerosal-containing vaccines and the incidence of autism.”

Thimerosal-containing vaccines do not cause autism. Stehr-Green P, et al., American Journal of Preventive Medicine. 2003;

“CONCLUSIONS:
The body of existing data, including the ecologic data presented herein, is not consistent with the hypothesis that increased exposure to Thimerosal-containing vaccines is responsible for the apparent increase in the rates of autism in young children being observed worldwide.”

Levels of mercury in children after receipt of thimerosal-containing vaccines. Pediatrics Feb 2008, Volume 121.

After 5 days there were no detectable mercury levels, the half-life of intramuscular ethyl mercury is substantially shorter than that of oral methyl mercury.

Lower rate of autism in children vaccinated with the MMR vaccine vs those that are unvaccinated. Budzyn D, et al., The Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal.

“RESULTS:
For children vaccinated before diagnosis, autism risk was lower in children vaccinated with MMR than in the nonvaccinated (OR: 0.17, 95% CI: 0.06-0.52) as well as to vaccinated with single measles vaccine (OR: 0.44, 95% CI: 0.22-0.91). The risk for vaccinated versus nonvaccinated (independent of vaccine type) was 0.28 (95% CI: 0.10-0.76). The risk connected with being vaccinated before onset of first symptoms was significantly lower only for MMR versus single vaccine (OR: 0.47, 95% CI: 0.22-0.99).
CONCLUSIONS:
The study provides evidence against the association of autism with either MMR or a single measles vaccine.”

More studies.

No correlation between MMR vaccine rates and autism. JAMA. 2001;285(9):1183-118

“Results Essentially no correlation was observed between the secular trend of early childhood MMR immunization rates in California and the secular trend in numbers of children with autism enrolled in California’s regional service center system. For the 1980-1994 birth cohorts, a marked, sustained increase in autism case numbers was noted, from 44 cases per 100 000 live births in the 1980 cohort to 208 cases per 100 000 live births in the 1994 cohort (a 373% relative increase), but changes in early childhood MMR immunization coverage over the same time period were much smaller and of shorter duration. Immunization coverage by the age of 24 months increased from 72% to 82%, a relative increase of only 14%, over the same time period.
Conclusions These data do not suggest an association between MMR immunization among young children and an increase in autism occurrence”

Another study disproves Wakefield’s findings. Davis RL, et al., Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine. 2001;155(3): 354-9

“Conclusions Vaccination with MMR or other MCV, or the timing of vaccination early in life, did not increase the risk for IBD.”

Study of 535,544 vaccinated children found no association between the MMR vaccine and Encephalitis, Meningitis or autism. Makela A, et al., Pediatrics. 2002; 110: 957-63 (PubMed 12415036)

“CONCLUSIONS:
We did not identify any association between MMR vaccination and encephalitis, aseptic meningitis, or autism.”

Study of 537,303 Children fails to find a correlation between the MMR vaccine and Autism. Madsen KM, et al., New England Journal of Medicine. 2002;

“CONCLUSIONS:
This study provides strong evidence against the hypothesis that MMR vaccination causes autism.”