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“Do you know what a source for a concept that a real dough which is baked in a normal manner, should need to have a toar lechem? I don’t see that in the MB”
see orach chaim 168, MB sif kattan 38
also see Rabbi Bodners book on brochos, vol 2, p. 484-485, note 16 and 16.2, and his note about R S.Z. Aurbach.
almost certainly, a wrap is a mezonos.
please speak to your posek. to my understanding, you are incorrect. if any of them say hamotzie on the very thin wraps, please tell us who paskens that way. if not, please dont state what you think the answer might be. its possible someone does say you say hamotzie, but until you ask its best not to paskin yourself. R Elyashiv poskined mezonos, along with other Lakewood poskim.
R Elyashiv said you make a mezonos if its the very thin type. There is a clip of him answering the question, when someone shows him the round standard wrap.(it might be available online).
i also asked a rav and posek who answered the same. if it is very thin and has no air bubbles to make it look like bread (tzuras denahama)you make a mezonos. The question, though comes up, if the wrap is a bit fluffy, and on that, you would need to bring it to the rav to see. But those standard round types that are very thin – -you make a mezonos. In lakewood, at Bagel Nosh they tell everyone, based on the above, to make a mezonos.
abelleh – you wrote “I just follow the Rambam, Ramban, Meiri, Malbim, Megilat Esther, Aruch LaNer , Ramah, Sforno, Rav Hirsch, Rogatotchaver, Chazon Ish, Rav Yosef Dov, Rav Shacter, Rav Willig, Rav Lichtenstein, Rav Twersky, Rav Aharon, and all the other gedolim who believe that science has value”
what you write is almost humorous. you mention someone like the Chazon Ish. do you know who he was and how much of his time he spent learning?? they say about him a story that he once had to crawl into bed at night because he didnt leave enough strength in him after he finished his learning to walk to his bed. we all know he knew science, but it was not from taking courses, thats for sure! he learnt it from the torah. and you mention the Rogotchover. someone whom they say didnt stop learning for a minute! whatever science he knew or learnt was totally Lishmah.
and you mention Rishonim. like the Rambam. first of all, we are not discussing learning for parnassah, since a person can learn carpentry or plumbing and in regard to parnasah, they are all a mitzvah. and if you are discussing the wisdom of hashem, you didnt read my post so well. of course if you are on the madreigah to learn science for the knowledge to understand hashem better, or to praise him, or to understand how the human body works for learning purposes, or to keep yourself healthy – -thats a mitzvah. but lets be real. no one does that nowadays. maybe someone like Rav Avigdor Miller, or those that read his books. but no one goes to classes for that.
and when you wrote “something of value is not bitul torah”. if its not torah and not for a mitzvah it IS bitul torah. now i am not saying its possible to never be mevatel torah, and i am sure 1000% i have done so as well, but lets call a spade a spade.
abelleh, lets face it, learning science is only a mitzvah if you do it and keep in mind what you learnt in order to think about hashem. for 90% of the people that isnt happening, so you cant start telling everyone – -learn scince its a mitzvah d’oraisah.
so as a rule, learning science is bitul torah. besides, once you get technical with all the scientific info most people wont even equate that with “niflaos haboreh”. and according to you – -playing ball is also a mitzvah d’oraisah, which i agree it could be if it is needed. but i definitely wouldnt go out to everyone and say – -play ball, its a mitzvah d’oraisah!
dont push your agenda for secularism
below is the Hakhel email that went out this morning, (9/6/11) interestingly enough.
and its pretty apparent as to which side he is on…
i have a question- how do you all test on shabbos in regards to hilchos shabbos?
My question isnt CAN you, but HOW do you test to have as little problems as possible with the halochos of shabbos?