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Menachem to sechel: “You’re judging Chabad from the inside and non-Chabad from the outside (internet or random meetings on the street).
This doesn’t really count as an “obvious difference”…”Menachem, I have to give it to you. I disagree very strongly with much of what you say (surprise, surprise!) but you are definitely more intellectually honest than any other Lubavicher (and some of us on the other side) on this thread.
Maybe I should takke start calling you Rabbi 🙂
sechel: “even though rav moshe and every other litvishe gadolim [sic] respected chabad”
Spoken like a true Lubavicher… without taking facts into account! Not EVERY OTHER Litvishe gadol respected Lubavich, and there is a very good chance that more than 90% of them didn’t.
And don’t forget Satmar and their compatriots who did not respect Lubavich at all.
AlwaysAsk to Avirah: “You are suggesting that gedolim were making judgments about major current movements lead by other gedolim without investigating the matter properly?”
Not quite. Avirah is suggesting that they made judgments after investigating the matter as far as they could. Don’t forget that Lubavich are experts and believe in propaganda, as the Lubavicher rebbe himself said חזקה לתעמולה שאינה חוזרת ריקם. So many gedolei Yisrael believed that the views and situation in Lubavich were not what they really were.
What I have written is not radical or surprising. There were many gedolei Yisrael who believed that Shabsai Tzvi (NO! I’m not comparing c”v.) was a great tzaddik and possibly Mashiach until the full facts came to light. אין לדיין אלא מה שעיניו רואות.
mdd1: “there was one Chassidishe Rebbe (not a contemporary one) who held that Zimri was right in what he did with Kozbi”
I can only assume that you’re referring to the famous piece in Mei Hashilo’ach of the Izhbitzer Rebbe z”l which explains that what Zimri did was due to his understanding of Torah. Nonetheless, the Mei Hashilo’ach says that Zimri was mistaken, and not right as you have written. See the first piece in parshas Pinchas.
If I am wrong in my assumption, and you are referring to a different rebbe, please provide a source.
qwerty: “I spoke to Poskim on this question when the Jews in Pittsburgh were killed and I was told unequivocally that any Jew who is killed because he’s identified as a Jew dies Al Kiddush Hashem and is guaranteed an immediate ticket to Gan Eden”
I heard not that long ago that there is actually no reliable source that a Yid who was killed because he is Jewish goes straight to Gan Eden. I would like to a source either way. And I certainly hope what I heard was incorrect.
But notwithstanding that, I don’t believe that “poskim” can “pasken” who gets into Gan Eden. It is beyond their area of expertise. Therefore, R A Miller is no less authoritative on this matter than they are.
Avirah, I don’t think it is right to say that Rav Kook z”l was “heretical”. There were a great number of gedolei Yisrael who held him in very high regard despite not agreeing with his views. RSZ Auerbach was a talmid of his, as were other great poskim. And I remember once seeing a letter by the Gerer Rebbe z”l saying that he was a great man.
I applaud Menachem on being rational about the Tzemach Tzedek re his views on beards. A great tzaddik and gaon, but nontheless not a daas rabbim, as Menachem wrote.
On the other hand, Menachem also wrote the following: “it is wrong when people play two sides on which rabbanim they use. Some people might accept Rav Shach as daas Torah who must be followed by all of klal Yisroel in regard to Chabad… yet when it comes to beards they are meikel like Reb Moshe …”
If people do the above because it suits them, then it is certainly not laudable, but it is still not definitely wrong. See Eiruvin 7a where the gemoro only says it is absolutely wrong if the chumra and the kula contradict each other.
n0m: “What do you mean that he wasn’t spending time on communal needs?”
I never said or implied that. What I said was that other rebbes spend the majority of their time on communal needs and the needs of the individual. The Lubavicher rebbe did not spend MOST OF HIS TIME on that.
“Go blame all the other leaders for where their groups ended up.”
Where did their groups end up that anyone is deserving of blame? And I certainly would blame their leaders if I saw a direct link between their actions/views and a resultant departure from accepted chareidi norms.
I think it was qwerty – although I’m not 100% sure – that Rav Moshe was the undisputed Gadol Hador.
As great as Rav Moshe was, and perhaps he was indeed the Gadol Hador, but he certainly did not have that title undisputedly. When I was learning in E”Y as a bochur, he was virtually never quoted. Not that the israeli chareidim hadn’t heard of him, but they had Rav Elyashiv, Rav SZ Auerbach and others whose piskei halocho were quoted and given full weight. Rav Moshe was considered a big posek for Americans. I am not denigrating Rav Moshe, chas veShalom, just arguing with the term “undisputed”.
Avira:”neo chabad changing the mesorah and general cookiness”
Are you suggesting that they allow the cooking of basar bechalav?! Have they gone that far?! Oh, I get it. You mean kookiness with a k.
While the discussions about him most definitely not being Mashiach and a novi are very important, I believe that that is not the main point that many of us are trying to convey.
He lead a large group of people along a dangerous path where the belief that their shitah is the only correct one, and that things accepted or rejected for hundreds of years are now to be rejected and accepted, respectively. He constantly justified his and his chassidim’s actions, regardless of how the world saw it.
It is thus no wonder that the level of tznius in Crown Heights and other Lubavich strongholds is far below the level of all other chareidi groups, and the mixing of the genders is atrocious. (Can you name me any other chassidic group where a woman speaking to a group of men is accepted. There are probably small groups of Lubavich chassidim who find this reprehensible, but it is accepted by the vast majority.) If everything we do has been okayed by the boss, and he will bring the geulah any day regardless of what anyone else thinks, then everything is muttar.
“The Rebbe’s encyclopedic knowledge, near photographic memory, and lighting-fast wit, enabled him to validate himself with sources in seconds. If this was your main issue and you discovered the secret concept of learning to better understand, and had you gone to The Rebbe and asked for sources – he would have given you a dozen sources for every point in one minute.”
n0m, I’m sure you believe the above, but I saw and heard the Lubavicher rebbe live and I never found that he demonstrated the above.
“Encyclopedic knowledge” – he prepared his sichos (I heard this from informed fully-fledged Lubavich sources decades ago). Unlike most other rebbes who spend a majority of their time dealing with askonim on inyonei tzibbur and and regular supplicants, the Lubavicher rebbe sat in his room by himself most of the day. It makes sense that he prepared his sichos. (Btw the same sources said to me that he did not prepare his maamorim because they came directly min Hashomayim when he said them. So you can see that my sources were true believers.) And he had an entire team searching for sources when they wrote and published the sichos. So I don’t see that he necessarily had encyclopedic knowledge.
“Near photographic memory” – only near? Or perhaps some of the photographs were not developed clearly. Anyhow, on what basis do you make that claim?
“Lighning-fast wit” – really? I heard him speak many times and he was ponderous and repetetive. He could make the occasional witticism, but to label his wit as lightning-fast?! That’s debatable. (I say debatable because I say it wasn’t and you’ll continue to say it was.)
“Saying that 770 is gematriya beis moshiach is not the same as proving something from the gematriya.”
You’re right. It isn’t. But it is VERY childish and doesn’t suit someone who you consider being worthy of being Mashiach.
I’m surprised that no one has pointed out (perhaps they did and I missed it) that when the Lubavicher rebbe apparently “proves” that nevuah exists nowadays, he is referring ONLY to his father-in-law and, according to his followers, himself. And his proofs of his father-in-law’s and his own nevuah just don’t hold water. Where and when did he prophesy what will happen in the Six-Day-War and the Gulf (Not golf war, as you wrote it. That was between Obama and Trump.) War? Saying that one side will win doesn’t qualify as nevuah unless you say a time and a place.
I want to point out once more that the standard answer is, “Learn something-or-other in its entirety and you will understand,” knowing very well that we on the other side (I assume Lubavichers will translate that as sitra achra) have no intention of doing so. I know I won’t, and I have three reasons.
1. I’m scared that reading too much of his writings will lead me astray. That has been the case with many people I personally know. Although, Lubavichers will probably not agree that it is astray.
2. As I have written a number of times in the past, I have had a very long connection with Lubavich and I have, in fact, been more or less force-fed long explanations of the Lubavicher rebbe which did not make any sense except to the person who was convinced that they were fantastic even before he himself had learnt them. How many times have I heard, “There’s a fascinating letter of the rebbe…” and then been read something simplistic, or self-serving and the like? (Correct answer: many times.) In case you’re wondering, despite only very rarely finding/hearing anything worthwhile that the Lubavicher said/wrote, I am still scared of being influenced badly. See point 1 above.
3. I believe it is wrong halachically to read the writings of someone who so clearly was self-promoting and believed that no other gedolei Yisrael were comparable to himself. Not to mention someone who could play with halacha, e.g. paskening that you need not sleep in the sukkah if you are mitzta’er that you CAN fall asleep. (As I wrote, that’s my all-time favorite.)
sechel to me: “one of the 13 ikrim is that there is nevuah, the rambam gives simanim on who is a navi which we all saw by the rebbe, signed a psak din that reads as follows…”
I never suggested that I don’t believe in nevuah c”v. I just don’t believe that the Rayatz was a navi and neither was his son-in-law. The crazy psak that you quote that the Lubavicher rebbe is a navi is just plain worthless and stupid. If fact, it’s disgusting.
To “pasken” that the rebbe was a navi (and Mashiach) from the fact that he alluded to it himself in a sicha makes a joke of all real piskei halocho! MenachemShmei would never have quoted that because he would have realised that we would make a laughing-stock of him if he did. I think you should learn from him not to quote something that is so easily negated and laughable.
You also attacked me ad hominem (I’m fine with that by the way) and, as usual, ignored actual statements that I cited as ridiculous, e.g. the proof of Messianism from the fact that Beis Mashiach has the gematria of 770.
And while we’re at it, let’s drag up some old stuff that has never been answered and always been avoided.
1. The fact that Lubavich holds it’s a “kula al pi chassidus” to eat Seuda Shlishis (that’s an exact quote of what I was told).
2. That according to nigleh one is pattur from sleeping in a sukkah if one is mitzta’er that he is able to fall asleep! (That is most certainly my favorite.)
3. That trees that are so far away that they cannot be seen can interefere with the working of a sundial between the hours of two and five in the afternoon every day of the year. (As quoted by the Rayatz in his stories.)To paraphrase the Kohein Gaodl on Yom Kippur, there is a lot more in Lubavich than I have quoted here that shows that they are off the beaten track (some of it close to apikorsus, and some over the line). But they will continue to dissemble and avoid at all costs facing up to those criticisms, instead attacking ad hominem or resorting to the hoary old chestnut (I don’t even know what a hoary chestnut is, but I like the expression) of, “You are quoting out of context. If you learnt more chassidus you’d understand.” I may not have learnt as much Chabad chassidus as you have, but I have defnitely learnt more than the average non-Lubavicher, and I definitely DO NOT understand.
I also don’t understand the allowing and even encouraging of drinking alcohol to excess, the levels of mixing of genders which is not found among other chassidim, the low level of tznius (which has been decried by a number of Lubavichers in the coffee room and elsewhere) and the denigrating of all other groups of chareidim that is so prevalent in Lubavich.
I would like to make one thing clear. I am not a believer in the Lubavicher rebbe (as if you didn’t already know) but I believe he had myriad zechuyos that I don’t have. His international Chabad houses are fantastic places of “refuge” for businessman and tourists all over the world. Nonetheless, his hashkafos and views have led to a great decline amongst Lubavicher chassidim and those under their influence in many areas, not limited to those I have mentioned above. And his implicit insistence that nothing other than Lubavich is worthy in the frum world has shown that he cannot be accepted by the vast majority of chareidim as a true gadol beYisrael.
(Sorry, but I can’t resist commenting, even though we’ve been through it all before.)
“the Rebbe doesn’t ch”v make up his own views”
What about the fact that Beis Mashiach is begamatria 770, and saying how there is nevuah in Yisrael because his shver was a navi (implying – according to the chassidim, not me – that he himself is a navi), and that there is a concept of Nasi Hador even nowadays (about which I have written against in earlier threads).
And there are quite a number of other examples of the Lubavicher rebbe making up stuff and then distorting sources to show his point.
(As you may have noticed I haven’t been around for a while. I used to be simply RSo but I lost all the login info so I had to make a new username etc.)
Menachem wrote: “Again, this has nothing to do with ch”v davening to the Rebbe in shmone esrei, or the other nonsense which does not exist, as I wrote countless times.”
You are very wrong. In that sicha the whole point that the Lubavicher rebbe was making was that there is nothing wrong with davening to a tzaddik because he is atzmus melubash baguf.